Texan sect temple 'used for sex'

[eppur_se_muova]

Source: BBC

Investigators searching the temple of a polygamist sect in Texas found a bed used by men to have sex with their under-age "wives", court papers reveal.

Girls as young as 13 were "spiritually married" to older husbands in the sect, investigators say, in a cycle of abuse.
***
According to court papers released on Wednesday, the temple in the compound "contains an area where there is a bed where males over the age of 17 engage in sexual activity with female children under the age of 17".

The bed had disturbed linen and what appeared to be a female hair, according to an affidavit signed by a Texas Ranger.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7341077.stm

---

Statutory rape as sacrement? First Amendment, get thee behind me!

[Caoimhe]

1. What I wouldn't give to give all those dirty old men this treatment

Sick. Disgusting. Animals.

[theoldman]

4. Only an old country boy like me would recognize that tool.

For you city guys, it is used to castrate animals.

[Mountainman]

18. Yes we know, I have a house in open range country.

[sasquatch]

37. I used it on bull calves to make steer calves when I was a kid

[Ilsa]

147. Or medical people who have a good sense of mechanics.

I love gadgets, and I've lived in south texas for many years, but never observed the process of converting a bull into a steer.

[Taverner]

5. You know I actually know what that is, and have one

My brother in Northern Alberta sent me one as a joke...

[ironflange]

6. Oh boy

Not only do I know what that is, I've seen it in action. :scared: I would, however, be first in line to use it on these guys.

[kestrel91316]

7. Hee hee hee. I'll volunteer to do the deed. I know how to use that.

Actually, the men are too big for those teenly little elastrator bands. We need to whip out a Burdizzo. I have plenty of experience with this baby in cattle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdizzo

[guitar man]

16. I'm a country boy

and I know exactly what that tool does too. I used to do it with one of these, and I'd prefer to use this tool to do the same to those dirty old men :evilgrin:

[Petrushka]

31. Looks like a Berdeezo'd work better! (sp?) My hubby used the B. on Hereford bull calves. (eom)

[Sequoia]

34. OMG...I know what that is.

I was thinking of a hanging party for them.

[PatGund]

124. Nahh...

this tool

[Submariner]

2. It seems the more religious they are, the more obsessed with sex they are

Ted "meth" Haggard, Larry "widestance" Craig, the celibate catholic priests raping little boys and girls, and polygamists. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the "religion of polygamy", or whatever one calls it, is nothing more than a tool for hedonistic men to prey on women and children. Probably weak and mousy men.

[Waya]

3. Pedophilia in the name of God.........

.............

[reorg]

108. whatever it is, pedophilia it isn't

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

[acmavm]

8. While I agree with the idea of using that tool on all these clowns,

I have to say why are these women getting a pass? Surely some of them have tracable brainwave patterns, right? They can't all think that they DESERVE this abuse, can they? Does anyone else think that maybe they should have wanted better for their daughters? Am I being unreasonable?

[Lars39]

9. Yes, you're being unreasonable.

[acmavm]

17. Maybe, but someone else here mentions the ones the left

willingly. That means that some type of intelligence regarding the outside world must exist in that place. Just wanting a better life for your child should have told these women something.

The other think I cannot understand is why this place was left to go on about its 'business' for so damn many years.

[daveskilt]

22. please don't use my post as support - I'm on the thinking you are being unreasonable team

yes 140 left - but have you ever been around/known any abuse victims? the fear is huge. The conditioning to believe that they deserve the treatment they get, or that there is nothing better.
The ones who left had been there for years - probably their whole lives. Did they deserve the abuse for their lifetimes so far because they hadn't the courage to leave until law enforcement helped them get out and escape? I don't think anyone deserves that and the ones still too scared to leave don't deserve it either.

[acmavm]

25. Whoa whoa whoa, don't be putting words in my mouth. I didn't say

ANYONE deserves that kind of abuse. I was just wondering what the fuck with the deal with those women. Surely they had an intellect above that of a dumb beast, didn't they?

Don't even try to insinuate that I said anyone deserved anything.

[1monster]

33. I have a friend (and I know others who have similar stories) who was in

an abusive relationship.

This woman is the last person you'd ever expect to put up with abuse, so when she told me her story, I was shocked.

Two years into their relationship, her fiance beat the crap out of her one night. She didn't understand what had caused him to treat her so, and believed him when he told her it was all her fault. (The two years previous to this had been a conditioning period where he led her to believe that she was responsible for the cracks in their relationship.

In the end, after he nearly killed her, her parents stepped in and took her home (half way across the country) and refused to let her go back even to get her belongings.

Something happens in an abusive relationship that makes the abused believe that they deserve it or that they cannot live without the abuser. The abuse does not start out full fledged. It starts with little things that undermine the abused self respect, self esteem, and sense of reality.

Long story, but later she found out that the guy had a pattern of behavior where he never laid a violent finger on a woman until they had been in the relationship for at least a year, so that the woman was stunned and disbelieving when he did start the violence.

Most of the women in that compound have probably been conditioned since birth to believe that they had no right to be treated with respect in any way and that they are the God-given play things of the masters males of that society.

Rebellion is not all that easy when the consequences for rebellion is harsh physical punishment as well as tremendous social pressure to conform.

Who does one turn to for help if there is no one to trust? No one knows for sure if the girl who prompted the investigation got out or if she's still there or transferred somewhere else.

[InkAddict]

148. It's the little things...

Sometimes, no violence per se is involved, and no one believes there is abuse because the perp combines this unholy private treatment with a public rational display of Godly good works. The private treatment of continuous disorienting, fear-making threats,(or actual actions, even to the extent of involving self-sabotage)to cut off the social and financial means to take any steps forward would, by perception, mean the loss of quite literally everything the person has ever known and had ever worked for should they leave. Bullying and "gaslighting" can be a very effective psychological weapon--trust me--and in some countries (not in America) there is legislation that makes it a crime.

Consider the similarity to:

Behave yourself or I'll cut off all affection (and your vote); come to think of it, I'll do that anyway because it's in your interest to come around to meeting MY needs. If any of you become provocative enough to question me or how I handle things, I will go to those who would support you, your employer, your family, your children, your church--You know, He talks to me and confirms my every deed, so I am sure history will bear me out. Meanwhile...I will show evidence of who doesn't contribute to the relationship, who is an unpatriotic, stupid, lazy enemy of the state who deserves no sustenance, no warmth, no food, no transportation, no safety net, no means of communication, no rights (no privacy, habeas corpus); no life.

So, just the little things are removed from the ungodly...their jobs, their homes, their investments. Once this tyranical psychological tool is used often enough, who would be so bold as to make a fuss? Acting out is so....well, childish, and only confirms the need for even more discipline.

[pnwmom]

67. You should start by wondering WTF is wrong with these men

instead of looking for ways to blame the women who already have several children by the time they're 18.

[DawgHouse]

94. Well said!

[acmavm]

105. Oh for cripe's sake, I already blame the men. Are you not able to read?

But I can wonder about more than one facet of an issue. The problem starts with these men, yes. But somewhere along the line these women got really fucked up. And I wonder why. Where is their dignity? Their pride as a human being? Common sense?

I can reason my way through several different aspects of a situation. I can handle more than one though per day. Try it sometime.

[daveskilt]

131. If I can bail you out here....

I get how people are misreading the intent of your post (I did too - it really wasn't clear) your explanation makes sense. but since this is DU you could post one word and find 10 people calling you a troll/misogynist/defeatist/racist who is deluded/paid by (insert candidate here)/uninformed/unsympathetic to the plight of (insert posters cause of choice here).

yes they did get screwed up somewhere along the way (maybe by the lifetime of abuse and brainwashing? just maybe)

Just remember arguing with someone on DU is like wading in treacle while beating yourself in the head with a plank of wood. it only gets stickier and hurts your head - just like any other type of masturbation.

[acmavm]

134. Thank you. Seriously, I am beginning to wonder if DU is the place

where those who leap to conclusion without thinking about what they just read come to die.

[salbi]

142. Men and Women are brain washed into believing what they are doing is right

I don't blame the women and would like to see as many of them as possible escape from this. Some however will be too convinced that this is the only way for them to get to heaven and will return. While I am NOT condoning what the men have done, I do believe they also have been brain washed since children. I think most do believe they are acting as they are supposed to act, as their church leaders command that they act. Boys from early childhood are taught this behavior as being the correct way for men to act. It may be too late for many of them to change, but hopefully by removing the boys they will have a chance to grow up differently.

[Jackpine Radical]

59. Stockholm Syndrome

leaps to mind.

[pnwmom]

66. They've been brain washed into thinking the outside world is WORSE.

By the time a woman IS an adult, and willing to try anything, she also has several children that she doesn't want to abandon. And in the communities in Utah and Arizona, the police dept. was made up of FLDS. So how was she supposed to get help?

[zanne]

143. Exactly. Why wasn't this abuse investigated sooner?

I don't care how "isolated" that compound is. There had to be rumors of at least polygamy which, if this is still the 21st century, IS ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY.

There was a post here a few days ago about some parents who let their child die instead of being treated for diabetes. These two instances fall under the heading of RELIGION. Has it become right-wing PC to ignore abuse if it's cloaked in the name of God?

[kestrel91316]

12. The women have been raised in the cult since birth. They are not

taught that an alternative exists. THey are completely isolated from the outside world, and taught that if they leave, we outsiders will force them to have sex with lots of men (oh, the irony), wear skimpy attire, wear makeup, and basically be prostitutes.

They are completely denied TV, radio, books, magazines, public education, and contact with outsiders. They are told were are in league with Satan. They do not even know what CRAYONS are, for pete's sake (per one recent report).

Presumably they have not been taught that they have CIVIL RIGHTS.

They certainly do not even know that anything "better" exists.

[khaos]

27. sounds familiar..

the USA is one giant cult; hates competition.

[daveskilt]

14. 140 women left of their own accord when the place was raided

and how many were still too scared to leave even with the police there to protect them?

[callous taoboy]

54. My friend, a case worker, was there to help last weekend:

She called me when she got home. 10 hours of sleep and no will to eat for 3 days. What she observed was the worst she has encountered in all of her years as a case worker. Institutionalized pedophilia and brain washing. She had no stomach for food. She was outraged that it was the women and girls who were forced to leave.

She commented that it was the Methodist church in Eldorado that gave some of the best help for the women and girls.

[pnwmom]

68. Aren't the women and children safer out of there?

We couldn't have kept the men out of there forever.

[Ilsa]

145. Just a thought (not to argue) but maybe CPS

thought changing the scenery and exposure to others would help them learn new behaviors and culture, instead of permitting more of the same to continue in the men's absence.

[NJCher]

80. thanks for the first-hand report

It had to be really bad to affect her so intensely.



Cher

[juno jones]

84. No doubt a huge number of the 400-odd children were also theirs.

people have bemoaned the 'breaking up' of families, but I suspect that's not the case here. In fact inbreeding in this cult is so common that most are related to each other anyway.

I wish those women the best of luck in escaping with their children.

[Mountainman]

19. From what I heard on the news, the girls are conditioned to accept the abuse from the cradle.

[Triana]

101. Here's how they 'broke' them as babies...

The alleged control began in infancy.

“The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture,” Jessop said of her former husband. “He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldn’t breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldn’t cry anymore. This method he called ‘breaking them.’”

Video and more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24009286 /

[wordpix]

149. sounds like BushCo waterboarding---sickening

[Marrah_G]

20. Yes, you are... and here is why.

These women have grown up cut off from the world, completely brainwashed, uneducated, taught to fear the outside world. They are also held prisoners, often behind walls, guarded by men in pickups with guns, informed on by their children and families, beaten, raped, and broken.

The few who maintain enough "self" to get away for the sake of their children have a very hard time adjusting to society.

[MountainLaurel]

30. And not just the outside world

These women are also taught that this is God's plan for them, and the only way they will see heaven is to obey. Never underestimate the power of the fear of eternal hellfire or on how easily abuse can be justified when the bearded guy in the sky enters the equation.

[yardwork]

60. That's true. I grew up among extreme fundamentalists.

Not this group, but other types of extreme fundamentalists in rural Ohio. My best friend's father was the minister of one cult, er, church. Years later, my friend told me that she didn't even know where babies came from when we were teenagers, and she was taught to believe that if she looked up the word "sex" in the encyclopedia, it would damn her to hell.

The weird thing is that she knew her mother was on birth control pills. She just didn't understand how they worked. She had no idea what sex involved. She was taught to fear all men. She married young and has five children. Her brother became a satanist.

[LanternWaste]

23. I'm thinking that their fear of any possible consequences

At the moment, I'm thinking that their fear of any violent consequences by the men severely outweighed thoughts of long-term safety for their children.

But that's simply a guess on my part...

[sudopod]

32. Thats how cults work.

The real prison wall exist within the mind.

You'll have sex with that creepy old man or G_d will turn his eyes from you and you'll go to hell, you little harlot!

[JerseygirlCT]

56. You are

These women have literally been bred to be pliant. Since birth, they've been taught to fear the outside world and to obey the men. They simply do not know any different or any better.

Blaming the victims is particularly wrong in this case.

[yardwork]

58. The mothers, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers have been conditioned from birth

to accept this as women's lot in life. Babies are waterboarded by this group to "break" their spirits and ensure docility. Children are raised in the compounds with no contact with the outside world. They have no television, radio, videos, or computers. The women and children can't leave the compound alone or without permission of their fathers, husbands, or male leaders of the cult.

They don't know any other life.

[Triana]

102. Here's the waterboarding technique used to break them as babies

The alleged control began in infancy.

“The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture,” Jessop said of her former husband. “He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldn’t breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldn’t cry anymore. This method he called ‘breaking them.’”

Video and more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24009286 /

[undergroundpanther]

138. I wish I could "break" those males

Break them into a million pieces blood on the wall.These men that abused these babies and girls do not deserve to live anymore.I would gladly throw the switch on these pigs myself,however I would prefer to break them first..Death to all polygamists, rapists, child abusers wife abusers, and pedophiles.
These kinds of putrid males deserve nothing but pain,hate and a grave.

[pnwmom]

65. Ever hear of the Stockholm syndrome? That would apply here.

Also, from infancy, the children have been conditioned to this authoritarian regime. Former members of the cult have described how the current leader of the Texas facility trained babies not to cry -- by spanking them till they cried and then holding their faces under running faucets till they stopped.

The women have babies when they are still children. They can't leave the compounds because they don't want to desert their babies -- and how do you escape with a child? By the time the women are adults, they often have several children. One girl, who was said to be under 16 (by another girl), already had 4 children of her own.

[aquart]

78. Unbelievable. Already blaming the woman.

That's both uninformed and utterly disgusting.

Doesn't surprise me much on DU, however.

[Cerridwen]

81. Please look up "learned helplessness" and the studies

used to form this hypothesis.

This cult has been around a little over a hundred years. Many of the women are born into it and know nothing else; others are brought there very young and learn nothing else. Some come from families who, though not members of this particular group, raise their children to be obedient to authority, without questioning.

Why do presumably intelligent people vote against their own best interests in elections when they have the whole world of information and knowledge in front of them? How can you expect girls and women and boys sequestered in this...group, to be able to do what a large portion of our voting public can't do while having the freedom to read and obtain the wealth of information and knowledge available to them?

[axollot]

104. What I found interesting - is that none of the MSM mentions...

who's compound it belonged to. None other than Warren Jeffs. No, I do NOT condone this abuse, but do know that these women - the mothers, were raised this way as were there mothers and grandmothers etc - this was what they thought life was like. Few women on polygamy compounds get much of an education and contact with the outside world is forbidden for the most part.
Cheers
Sandy

[Ilsa]

146. They are in the middle of nowhere, and they don't know that there is help available

to abused women and children. They have been kept ignorant of cultural safeguards. They may truly believe they'll perish out in the wilderness if they leave.

[InfiniteNether]

10. But, but, but... religious freedom! Why do you hate Christians?

[acmavm]

21. What the fuck does this have to do with 'Christians'? All 'Christians'

aren't like this. What is it with people like you? A lot of your fellow DUers are 'Christians'.

[fascisthunter]

24. too funny

no clue

[InfiniteNether]

26. Dude, grow up. If you haven't figured out by now that that is

exactly the way the right-wing frames any debate about religion, then you are clueless. Any time a story like this comes out, they scream "Liberals hate Christians!".

[LanternWaste]

35. Well, let us know the first...

Well, let us know the first time you hear about the incarceration of these particular sect members being blamed on Liberals-- links, air times, pub dates-- that kind of thing. A lot of us would be interested in it...

[acmavm]

106. Pay attention to what you read. Don't skew that remark around on the

right wingers. This is a typical DU bullshit response. According to a large crowd here ALL 'Christians' are like this.

[daveskilt]

132. give me an S. give me an A. give me an R. .....

sarcasm.
you got all upset that people took one of your posts on this thread very literally (you were suggesting that the woman had no 'tracable brainwave patterns') and eviscerated you without giving you the benefit of the doubt. I took this as a satirical view of the rovian framing of liberals as anti christian.

if you want other folks to not take the less than articulate or downright silly things that you may say at face value and give you the benefit of the doubt perhaps a little reciprocity and 'doing unto others' might be in order here.

[JeanGrey]

90. These people aren't "christians".

[Skittles]

139. the underlying brain-washing is all the same

it's just a matter of degree

[Warpy]

11. OK, that tears it for them

They've been exposed as an ordinary sex cult, which a lot of us always thought they were while they were still successfully hiding behind the cross.

Perhaps now even Utah will be shamed into going after those old men.

[Wizard777]

13. You have to watch the wording. They are being intellectually dishonesty.

Girls as young as 13 were "spiritually married" to older husbands in the sect, investigators say, in a cycle of abuse.

Now you would think that these 13 year old girls were having sex with dirty old men.

According to court papers released on Wednesday, the temple in the compound "contains an area where there is a bed where males over the age of 17 engage in sexual activity with female children under the age of 17".

Except that a 17 year old is an "older husband" but no where near being a dirty old man. They go as far as calling a 17 year old having sex with a 13 year old "abuse." But here in Maryland with our Romeo and Juliette laws. Sex between a 17 and 13 year old is perfectly legal. 18 and 14 is also legal. It's legal as long the age difference is not more than 4 years. This is either a propaganda peice or they need to expand their explination.

[Shakespeare]

28. "over the age of 17" refers in this situation primarily to men in their 50s.

Because that's who the patriarchs in the sect are. It's a legal definition to say "over the age of 17," but in NO way means that this was just a bunch of teens having sex. :puke:

[Wizard777]

63. So does over 49. They need to elaborate.

Because the way they put it teen sex is exactly what it sounds like.

[pnwmom]

74. They don't need to elaborate. The language was fine for the purposes

of the search warrant, which is all this was.

It showed that the situation met the minimal requirement to show probable cause of a violation of the law.

[LanternWaste]

36. It's not intellectual dishonest.

It's not intellectual dishonest. It's not even disingenuous. A best, it's merely vague.

And, five'll get you ten we'll be hearing about some non-ficticious "dirty old men" as you put it raping some teens and preteens in their care before too long...

[yardwork]

61. If you read the reports, you'll learn that the girl who reported abuse is married to a 50 year old.

She gave birth when she was 15. If you google this group, you'll find several books written on the subject. It is the norm for older men (men in their 40s, 50s, 60s) to have numerous wives - as many as a half dozen or more. The girls are married to these men as soon as they appear to be able to give birth. Girls as young as 13 and 14 becoming the "sixth wife" of 50 year old men.

[Wizard777]

64. Yes but a report should be able to stand alone. Otherwise it's not really a report.

It's a supplement to a report.

[pnwmom]

75. It's not a report. It's a search warrant. n/t

[pnwmom]

73. That wording is simply the wording used to meet the minimal statutory

requirement. In order to get the search warrant, all they need to prove is that the minimal requirement has been met.

But if you read the whole document, it is quite clear that this is no Romeo and Juliet situation. Most of the husbands are at least a decade older than their young wives. There are men over 50 with more than 20 wives, including young girls.

[Burma Jones]

15. Now that's some old time religion....n/t

[Virginia Dare]

29. Call it what it is, a rape camp...

they are mentally sick pedophiles posing as fundamentalists.

[underpants]

38. Polygamist men cry during temple search

Source: MSNBC

Authorities defend decision to leave sect alone for four years

ELDORADO, Texas - When authorities moved to search the large white temple on the polygamist compound in West Texas, about five dozen of the sect's men prayed and cried around the structure, state investigators said Thursday.

Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran also said he had been working with a confidential informant for four years who was feeding him information about life inside the polygamist sect.

Doran declined to say whether the informant was in Texas or other sect compounds in Utah or Arizona. It wasn't until after the search had begun that Doran learned about marriage beds in the temple and the forced marriages of underage girls to older men.

"We are aware that this group is capable of (sexually abusing young girls)," Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry. I've said that from day one."

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24014376>1=43001

---

The national crisis of polygamy continues but rest assured everyone is going to make sure their civil rights are not attacked.
:sarcasm:

[fasttense]

39. Interesting that you didn't see the women crying.

I bet they cried when they were beaten and raped at the age of 15.

I guess it doesn't matter if women and children's civil rights were violated.

[Richard D]

40. They've known about it for 4 years!?!?!?!?!?

Wonder how many young girls were raped during that time.

[underpants]

44. Yeah I didn't know about that either

so the 16 year old was 12....and the Sherrif wanted to make sure no civil rights were violated???

Sad.

[pnwmom]

76. Texas changed their laws in the interim, to raise the marriage age

from 14 to 16. That new law has made their case now stronger.

[zanne]

144. WTF?

We are aware that this group is capable of (sexually abusing young girls)," Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry. I've said that from day one."

"We're not going to violate their civil rights"? Since when is abuse a "civil right"? Since when is polygamy a "civil right"? Both of these things are ILLEGAL. The fact that the authorities waited so long because it was a RELIGIOUS sect should send alarms out to every American. ARE CULTS NOW CONSIDERED TO BE MAINSTREAM RELIGIONS? (I know I'm yelling, but this subject deserves it).

If authorities suspected for one minute that homosexuals were getting married in that compound and "importing" children, they would have been investigated immediately.

[jobycom]

41. At least someone's civil rights are still being honored. nt

[Hepburn]

42. Yeah, I bet those assholes cried a river....

...while they were raping their underage brides....:grr:

[Iris]

49. and did they cry when their wives and children were led away?

or is it just the violation of their sacred temple they cry about?

[Beausoleil]

117. Probably just for themselves

and the thought of being convicted of rape and sent to prison. Brought tears to their eyes. "Sacred Temple", my ass.

[Matariki]

43. I don' t understand this statement

"We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry"

An outcry from who? We're talking about sex with minors. Who exactly has to 'outcry' for them to enforce the law?

Am I missing something?

[underpants]

46. No you aren't

the 16 year old was 12 when they first starting hearing about this. Others as well obviously.

I don't know if "due diligence" covers this but DONING YOUR (#*@(#$#) JOB!! does. :grr:

[Matariki]

51. Yes - that struck me as odd too. FOUR years to do anything about child sexual abuse

You gotta wonder...

[varkam]

45. "We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry."

What the hell?

I know this isn't going to make me popular, but isn't he essentially saying that as soon as there is an outcry, then it's to hell with their civil rights? :crazy:

[underpants]

47. Maybe, just maybe, if they creeped real close to the compound...

they could have heard the OUTCRY of little girls beign raped!

Sad and amazing

[pnwmom]

69. I think he just misspoke. By "outcry" I think he meant

actionable complaint -- as in the girl's repeated pleas for help.

And at that point, her own civil rights trump the rights of these abusers to practice their "religion" without interference.

[varkam]

99. I agree, I think he misspoke...

because if there were an actionable cause then he really wouldn't be violating their civil rights - just strange is all.

[Matariki]

48. I also don't understand Texas law

The article says a girl can marry at 16.

Does that mean the man can be any age? If a 20 year old male has SEX with a 16 year old girl, can he go to jail under pedophile laws? If they get married, can they have sex before the girl turns 18?

[underpants]

50. The answer probably is no

if 16 is legal to marry she can marry anyone

That is my guess anyway.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. So we couldn't go in until the victims complained of abuse?

Even though we know they were being forced into an abusive life style at a young impressionable age?

This is a consequence of Waco. We can pre-emptively go into Iraq for just suspicions of weapons gathering, but heaven forbid that we should raid a right-wing religious compound on US soil.

[pnwmom]

70. The constitution protects us ALL from home invasions without probable cause.

Whether it is a right-wing or a left-wing group, they still have their civil liberties -- or they should.

This girl's call for help gave them probable cause to take to a judge to get their search warrants. Until then, we couldn't say we "knew" they were forcing marriage on young girls. The law gave them the same presumption of innocence it gives to all of us.

[The Backlash Cometh]

107. The had probable cause.

They had an informer in there for four years and you're telling me they didn't have probable cause until now? The benchmark for probable cause is a lot lower than a complete confession or complaint, isn't it?

[BreweryYardRat]

53. They can cry their fucking eyes out, but it won't win them any sympathy from me.

As for the "not going to violate their civil rights" line, that reads (to me, at least) as trying to avoid giving these slimeballs anything their defense lawyers can use.

What good would busting these freaks do if they were able to get out through a legal loophole?

[vinylsolution]

55. Respect? WTF??

Why does the Schleicher County Sheriff's Dept 'respect' the rights of a group of men who have systematically raped possibly hundreds of young girls? Ah yes... because this is Texas (see also - all of Red State America), where women and children are little more than expendable property.

The rapists were also hiding behind a veneer of religion, and religion must never, ever, be shown to be wrong.

The rapists were also white, which makes them a lot less guilty right from the start, in the eyes of fundamentalist Red State courts.

Makes me wonder if the Schleicher County Sheriff's Dept knows a lot more than it is letting on.... why else would they ignore this religio-pedo-horrorshow for four years? Judges, politicians, top cops? Who's involved here?

Expose the rapists, and let the victims' families castrate them all in public.

[Kitty Herder]

89. I'm so glad I got out of Mormonism. The FLDS way of life is what Mormon

women are offered as an eternal reward in heaven.

[JeanGrey]

91. Yes, I know. So they can be "goddesses" along with their

god husbands if they are called forth. I had a family member who was a priest in the Mormon church for 17 years.

[Beausoleil]

120. Wait a minute!

These creeps only moved to Texas and built this compound in the last few years. Texas acted upon the abuse. They have been in Arizona, Utah, Nevada and Colorado for much longer and got away with it.

[nealmhughes]

79. They cried for fear the golden salamander guarding the tablets would be harmed!

These guys were just trying to get to become gods in the Celestial Heaven, and they need lots of spiritual wives to breed spirit children once they become god of their own planets. Geez, have y'all never read the whatever it is the Mormen read?!

Well, once they hie unto Kolob, who will have the last laugh? Huh?!

[Wilber_Stool]

57. Well. I hope they

find something with their search. If they don't, it doesn't look good for the cops. I hate to disappoint you, especially the genital mutilators, but without evidence, they have nothing. They had a informer there for four years and found nothing. All they have is an anomalous call from a girl. That isn't enough to bring charges. If that girl doesn't come forward, it's over.

[Lars39]

62. No, they knew abuse was a possibility, but refused to act on it.

[Shakespeare]

72. While your sympathy for the men is duly noted, the police announced they've had an informant...

....working with them for FOUR YEARS. I'm betting they've got one heck of a case.

Edited to add: It can take a long time to 1. build a case, and 2. find probable cause to go in for a raid. They've spent four years working on this, and that call (and the resulting search warrant) was what they'd been waiting for to go in.

While we ALL respect individual rights on this site, I find the hand-wringing over the well-being of all these abusive men to be a tad suspect, especially considering there's been ZERO indication that the police have mishandled this in ANY way.

[Wilber_Stool]

82. I can't see how you could

presume from my post that I have any sympathy for the men. I am simply stating the facts. An informant spent four yeas looking for any evidence and found none. This was from a cop at todays press conference. If the girl that made the call does not identify herself, they have no case. It's as simple as that.

[Shakespeare]

83. Where on EARTH do you draw that conclusion?

"an informant spent four years looking for any evidence and found none"

And you draw that conclusion how, precisely? The cops did NOT say they'd found no evidence in four years--they said they've been BUILDING evidence for four years. And they have so many pregnant underage girls in protective custody right now that it does not matter if they find the girl who called (but I hope for her own safety they ARE able to identify her).

The police have been extremely careful in the way they've handled this case--if you read the entire updated story posted above you'll note that they searched the temple last (where those "marital beds" were found), because they knew if they were going to meet any resistence, that's where they'd find it. They moved through very carefully, very methodically, and very diplomatically. And they've not yet revealed all the information they've gotten from the informant over the years--we won't know that until the trial(s) happen.

[Wilber_Stool]

86. Yes they did.

I saw it on a news conference today. He was asked why they let it go on for four years and he said that they found no evidence. When they have the probable cause hearing, if all they have is one anonymous call and no prior evidence, everything they found will be thrown out of court.
On the up side, this is Texas. They never let the law get in the way of convicting anybody.

[Shakespeare]

95. You must have mis-heard or misinterpreted.

Because if they have no evidence, 416 children would not have been taken, three men would not have been arrested, and so on, and so on....

:rofl:

[saigon68]

97. Unless you are Black

Then its time to swing from the noose

[Shakespeare]

98. I just watched the rebroadcast of that news conference. He said no such thing.

No such thing at all.

[muryan]

100. You must have missed the part

where the men were caught trying to destroy marraige records, mainly pertaining to the men who have 5 or more wives. News flash, polygamy is a crime

[JeanGrey]

92. How in the world do you believe they "have no case?"

With all due respect that is absurd.

[Wilber_Stool]

123. OK,

Lets say I am wrong. I misheard. What have we got. The police place an informant in the church. He's there for four years. This is not a very big place. He apparently saw no evidence of adult males sleeping with under age girls. One day, the police get an anonymous call from a girl and she tells them her story. She is calling from a cell phone so they don't know where she is. They have not found the phone. This call could have come from anywhere. Is this probable cause to take almost 500 people into custody.
What you have to do is imagine that this situation is about something other that child sex. Would you like to see them use this little factual information for another reason?
And if they do follow the letter of the law, nothing they find can be used as evidence. Imagine that.

[JeanGrey]

129. There is TONS of evidence, starting with the girls/children

who are married to older men and either have children or are pregnant. At least 18 of the kids are considered in danger.
Geesh.

[JeanGrey]

135. Yup. And as we have seen, it is more than probable

cause. There are over a hundred girls - surely you don't think everything was just fine?

[pnwmom]

77. They already have plenty. They have a bunch of pregnant underage

girls. That equals, at the very least, statutory rape.

[NJCher]

88. do you mean?

anomalous call

Do you mean "anonymous?"

[Wilber_Stool]

125. Yeah..............n/t

[salin]

93. What an odd post.

Perhaps (and I hope) that you didn't intend this message -but this post seems to lump those with concerns about the girls in this compoundwith "genital mutilators" (your words). Without a longer post explaining the logic for why those raising concerns include "especially the genital mutliators" as if that is a portion of the DU readers
that are raising concerns.

Huh?

Without further explanaition of the logic behind this post, it reads as if there is a supposition that if folks object and hope for legal consequences for those involve in the story, that there is a likelihood that one also supports genital mutilation (per how the post is worded) - Given the broad "warning" given to all who hope that
prosecution occurs and then stating a qualifier (which suggests a substantial sub-set, or one wouldn't write it this way) of *especially the genital mutilators"....

I hope this is just written in a confusing way (I have often been guilty of that offense) rather than suggesting
that there are a bunch of "you, especially the genital mutilators" (verbatim from the post), among the ranks of DU.

The wording struck me as odd - and (without clarification) quite insulting.\ to the DU community.

[reorg]

109. maybe you shoud read the first reply and its appreciative choir again

It has become the rule at DU, it seems, that whenever teenagers having sex is in the news, a bunch of laptop warriors try and outdo each other with ever more violent fantasies. I find this uptight and violent streak in some US citizens, which may well have its roots in religion, quite disturbing.

[Shakespeare]

110. You must be terribly confused. This isn't "teenagers having sex."

This is middle-aged men raping girls as soon as they hit puberty (12, 13 years old)--and possibly even younger.

You find it uptight that people are outraged by that? Interesting.

[reorg]

111. I find it interesting

that what used to be cheap entertainment, soap operas on TV, seem more rational and profound these days in their response to such phenomena than vox populi as it manifests itself here.

As weird and "old-fashioned" as these cults may be, I don't see anything that suggests they condone prepuberty sex. Girls being forcibly married by their parents as soon as they hit puberty is an old custom in many places in Africa and India. I think it's wrong, but I don't phantasize about cutting the balls of their husbands off either.

[Shakespeare]

112. Removal of the clitoris is also custom in Africa and India.

I'm not part of the group clamoring for castration, but I DO have a problem with your flippant description of "teenagers having sex." That is NOT what this is, and regardless what customs there are in other countries (oh, add stoning for adultery to the list, etc. etc...), it is illegal in this country, and morally wrong. And if a man would fuck a 13-year-old, why wouldn't he also fuck a 10-year-old? We'll find out exactly what they "condoned" as more evidence comes out, but what we know so far is damning.

I want these men (and the women who helped them) prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[reorg]

113. It is one thing to outlaw those customs

and quite another thing to express the desire of cutting off the sensitive parts of other people.

The Indians never cut off any parts, BTW, clitoris mutilation is practiced only in some parts of Africa. In the US, on the other hand, they routinely cut off some sensitive parts of newborn boys, which seems an insane practice to me ... Interestingly, in both cases - African apologists of FGM and US apologists of MGM - they say it's not jut custom or religion, or anything to do with sex, but for the sake of "cleanliness", LOL.

My description of "teenagers having sex" is not flippant at all, it is precisely this concept that gets the goat of certain people who would like to use cutters on the private parts of other people, IMO.

The difference between a pre-puberty ten-year old and a post-puberty fourteen-year old girl having sex is that the former is illegal everywhere and the latter only in uptight countries with strong religious traditions that tend to the extreme, fundamentalist side. Where else do you find cults like these Mormons, for instance? As far as I am concerned, the stoners and those who have castration fantasies are more or less the same buch.

[Shakespeare]

114. Deliberately misstating something so horrible to "get the goat" of another poster is sick.

The age limits that are defined by law in this country (and in most other industrialized nations) aren't put in place because we're all prudes; but why don't you go ahead and explain in more detail why you think it's OK for a 50-year-old man to have sex with a 14-year-old.

You keep saying it's a matter of prudishness, so seriously--tell us why it's OK. Hint: those laws are not in place here (and in other industrialized countries) because we're uptight.

And no, somebody who makes an offhand, impassioned (if ill-advised) comment on a message board about castrating a pedophile is not as bad as someone who abuses a child in this manner. Anybody who thinks it is is one sick puppy.

And yes, there is a muslim sect in India that practices cliterodectomy. It's not done for cleanliness, either--they do so specifically to eliminate a woman's sexual desire and ability to experience desire.

http://www.tantra.co.nz/yoni/mutilation.htm

I won't even bother getting into the mutiliation v. circumcision issue, because the comparison there is bogus (a cliterodectomy is more akin to cutting off the entire penis, not just removal of the foreskin).

[reorg]

118. Calm down, you start confusing everything

The age limits defined by law in some parts of the US are put in place because prudishness is an attribute of the mainstream there. As they do with genital mutilation, they rationalize their prudish laws with other stuff. The tip of the penis is cut off for "cleanliness", the sex is outlawed for "protection", supposedly. The idea is that a girl who wants it does not really know what she wants. I believe, however, that people who dream of cutting off the private parts of others may not be in the strongest position to know better.

Where I live, fifty-year olds don't usually prey on young girls, as far as I know, and if it occasionally happens that a man of that age sleeps with a fourteen, fifteen-year old girl, the world doesn't seem to go under, I guess. The general idea and experience is that girls of that age who are sexually active do it of their own accord. If they are forced, it is rape, and illegal, of course, and a fourteen-year old is considered able to tell someone about it.


And even at the address you yourself quoted you will find the typical apologies for backward practices involving the cutting off of sensitive parts of young children that I mentioned:

"Female circumcision protects the health of a woman. Infibulation prevents the uterus from falling out . It keeps her smelling so sweet that her husband will be pleased. If it is not done, she will stink and get worms in her vagina." "An uncircumcised penis causes urinary infections and penile cancer. It generates smegma and smegma stinks. A circumcised penis is more hygienic and oral sex with an uncircumcised penis is disgusting to women."
"An uncircumcised vulva is unclean and only the lowest prostitute would leave her daughter uncircumcised. No man would dream of marrying an unclean woman. He would be laughed at by everyone." "An uncircumcised penis is dirty and only the lowest class of people with no concept of hygiene leave their boys uncircumcised."

http://www.tantra.co.nz/yoni/mutilation.htm

And no, it's not an Indian practice. "A small sect" practices it in India, as do a small number of British and US citizens who have roots in Africa.

[Shakespeare]

121. I'm confusing nothing, and I'm completely calm.

Here, I'll spell it out for you: those laws are not in place out of prudishness. Those laws are in place to protect children, both male and female, who are too young to have the emotional and intellectual capacity to make choices about who they will and will not have sex with. They're children. And they're especially put in place to protect children from significantly older predators such as these men (that's why many states have "romeo and juliet" clauses for the laws to consider cases where a couple of horny 16-year-olds are going at it). And your attempt to obfuscate this fact is disgusting.

"Where I live, fifty-year olds don't usually prey on young girls, as far as I know, and if it occasionally happens that a man of that age sleeps with a fourteen, fifteen-year old girl, the world doesn't seem to go under, I guess. The general idea and experience is that girls of that age who are sexually active do it of their own accord. If they are forced, it is rape, and illegal, of course, and a fourteen-year old is considered able to tell someone about it."

You don't know much about rape stats, do you? And are you suggesting that these laws aren't necessary because, in your opinion, it only happens "occasionally?" And when it does, "the world doesn't seem to go under?" Unfuckingbelievable. Ask the 14 year old how HER world is after something like that. And yes, one would certainly hope the minor would report the crime (as did happen in the TX case), but often they're threatened into silence by their attacker. But that's only what prudes think, no?

As for the other unrelated issue you keep bringing up: I never said it was explicitly an Indian practice; I said that India is one of the places where it happens. And that is absolutely true. If you want to get really specific, it's primarily a muslim practice, and is likely to happen anywhere fundamentalist islam has a following.

Edited for typo.

[reorg]

128. Yes, you are confusing everything

Whenever a case is in the news involving teenagers having sex (which of course is mostly illegal in the US) you will find these threads here at DU with the dramatic outcries, calling for the rope etc. or at least for a tool to cut off some private parts. Nobody of those who so unselfishly offer their time and assistance in doing away with evil perps has ever gained intimate knowledge of the cases in question, they just read a few lines in the papers and feel naturally entitled and inclined to climb the moral high ground and call for quick and easy solutions. It's like a reflex, a gut reaction.

Not much seems to be known of this case in Texas right now. The suspicion obviously is that this cult arranges marriages with women who are too young, legally underage. In addition, it is alleged that the one who anonymously notified the authorities had to suffer some kind of abuse -- it is not entirely clear to me whether this means beatings or that she was married against her will, or if the status of her being illegally married at a young age constitutes the abuse in itself.

In most of the US (and a few other countries like Turkey, Vietnam, Egypt ... see age of consent graph: ?click - I'm not sure if "industrialized" is the correct label, but whatever), everyone under 18 is considered a child and if you have sex with them you must be an evil person, liable to be called a "pedophile" and have your balls cut off or whatever the appropriate pendant for the even harsher denounced female "predators" would be.

I made an attempt to point out that such a view is not necessarily written in stone. In some cultures it is quite normal for fourteen-year old girls to get married. Has been, literally for ages. You made an attempt at ridicule by telling me that those same cultures where fourteen-year old girls get married also practice FGM, IOW are extremely backward agrarian societies incomparable to the US. That may indeed be true for some African countries, in the case of India it is not. Nor has FGM anything to do with Islam, other than that it is relatively widespread in areas in Africa where Islam is the dominant religion. It is a tribal custom that has been traced back to somewhere in East-Africa as far as I know, same as MGM, BTW.

A better argument would be that where girls marry very young, arranged marriages are also considered normal. That is obviously something you can find in India a lot, and among many so-called non-resident Indians living in the US and the UK. I have no quarrel with the idea that the young- or child-bride phenomenon is something you would expect to find in authoritarian, repressive and male-dominated cultures and cults. It certainly is not a good thing, IMO.

However, there are many civilized, modern countries where it is at least not considered a crime for young girls (postpuberty) to have sex (and choose with whom they want to have it). Although popular culture seems to paint a different picture, the US as a whole probably do not belong to these. That is the impression I regularly get here in this forum, anyway.

[Skittles]

140. I hope you don't have kids

:puke:

[Wilber_Stool]

126. Pardon me.

I didn't mean to imply that all DUers were genital mutilators. But there is a small band running around. If you would direct your attention to the first post in this thread, you will see a device for placing a rubber bands around the testicles of bulls. The reason should be obvious.
Used on a man, I think, would qualify as genital mutilation.

[Leo 9]

71. Brown Shoes Don't Make It

Brown Shoes Don't Make It
Lyrics » Frank Zappa

snip

A world of secret hungers
Perverting the men who make your laws
Every desire is hidden away
In a drawer in a desk by a Naugahyde chair
On a rug where they walk and drool
Past the girls in the office

We see in the back
Of the City Hall mind
The dream of a girl about thirteen
Off with her clothes and into a bed
Where she tickles his fancy
All night long

His wile's attending an orchid show
She squealed for a week to get him to go
But back in the bed his teen-age queen
Is rocking and rolling and acting obscene
Baby, baby. ..
Baby, baby. . .
Cimmie then cakes, uh!
If I do I'm gonna lose my...

And he loves it, he loves it
It curls up his toes
She wipes his fat neck
And it lights up his nose
But he cannot be fooled
Old City Hall Fred
She's nasty, she's nasty
She digs it in bed
That's right

snip

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/6/frank_zappa/brown_shoes_dont_make_it.html

[fascisthunter]

85. Is There a List of Visitors? (nt)

[lanlady]

87. "Under the Banner of Heaven"

I encourage everyone to read that book. What Krakauer has to say about the fundy Mormon polygamist communities will make you angry. When these people move in, they buy off the local law enforcement officers and local officials or "convert" them to their "faith" (lots of sex with underage girls) so they can operate without interference. The mainstream Mormon church pretends to be shocked but in actual fact, the polygamists are tolerated by church leaders.

[Beaverhausen]

116. yes, that book was a real eye-opener

and proved why they have been able to get away with this abuse for so long.

I really hope the Texas law enforcement can make this one stick.

[daveskilt]

133. the real reason they got away with it

was not because mormons turned a blind eye - the last time the UT/AZ state line communities were raided it was political suicide. The pictures of screaming children being ripped out of mothers arms in that raid cost almost every elected official involved in the raid their seat next election. self interest beats morality every time.

[Frank Cannon]

141. Brenda Wright (Lafferty) was a friend of mine

IMO, castration with a rolling pin would be too good for these polygamist m-f'ers.

And yes, "Under the Banner of Heaven" is a book everyone should read.

[David__77]

96. This is unsubstantiated rumor-mongering.

Let the judicial process carry itself out.

[LanternWaste]

115. discussion on a BBC news piece which cites sources...

Less unsubstantiated rumor mongering and more a discussion of a BBC news piece which cites sources.

And regardless of our opinions on it one way or the other, the judicial process will proceed with or without us.

So, I'm afraid I can't really see your problem with it this point...

[BrightKnight]

103. Could a judge order DNA tests? - n/t

[maddezmom]

119. Cyanide document found at Texas compound

Cyanide document found at Texas compound By BETSY BLANEY and MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writers
5 minutes ago



SAN ANGELO, Texas - Authorities searching the compound of a polygamist sect in West Texas found a "cyanide poisoning document" among the dozens of items it seized during a weeklong search.

Nothing in the 80-page list of items seized indicated that members of the sect planned to use cyanide. But the list had no explanation of the document and Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Tela Mange said she did not have any details about it.

Also seized were school and medical records, including some that listed the name of a 16-year-old girl whose call to a family violence shelter triggered the raid at the compound. But her name was identical to that of several girls in the sect.

The caller had said her 50-year-old husband had beaten and raped her.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080411/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_140

[Shakespeare]

122. Good lord. Echoes of Jamestown. n/t

[JeanGrey]

130. Why it's only "teenagers" having sex, right?

[Wilber_Stool]

127. Cyenide is a

common poison used on the farm to kill rodents. Unless something has changed, it could be purchased in feed stores.

[Infinite Hope]

136. Polygamy is a pervert's cover. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

137. Stories like this

Make me wish women and kids had razor sharp claws and women had sharp toothed vaginas.I bet no male would be taking advantage of a girl or woman anymore if all she had to do to stop him was break it off..
I wish every rapist death, every pedophile death, and any male that thinks polygamy is ok may his dick rot off and he be humiliated and kill himself.

Sometimes I wonder what a world without dick privileges would be like.A world where men were equal to women really..a world where men could not rape take or force another into sex at all, if he wanted to be alive the next day..