An angry China is lashing out at its foreign critics

[ckramer]

Source: m.com

...the state Xinhua news agency called House Speaker Nancy Pelosi “disgusting.” And on Tuesday, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu lambasted a CNN commentator, Jack Cafferty, for his “vicious” commentary on China.

“We solemnly request that CNN, and Cafferty himself, take back the malicious remarks and apologize to the Chinese people,” Jiang said at a news briefing

In a commentary Sunday, Xinhua said Pelosi, who met last month in India with the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, “is detested by the Chinese people.” It accused her of displaying a “stubborn anti-China sentiment and uneasiness about China's peaceful rise.”

Cafferty, whose CNN commentaries are invariably acerbic, sounded off on China on the program The Situation Room April 9. He said the United States imports “their junk with the lead paint” and their “poisoned pet food” while losing factory jobs to China, a country run by “the same bunch of goons and thugs they’ve been for the last 50 years.”

Jiang, the ministry spokeswoman, said Cafferty “used his microphone to denigrate China and Chinese people” and that his remarks constitute racism.

The firestorm began among angry Chinese immigrants in the United States, who launched an online petition drive (www.petitiononline.com/cnncaff/petition.html) to protest Cafferty’s remarks. Coverage quickly crossed into China, where citizens had already launched an internet campaign against CNN, accusing it of biased coverage in mid-March of an uprising of ethnic Tibetans demanding greater freedom.

A Chinese “anti-CNN” website contained plenty of vitriolic remarks against Cafferty by Tuesday.

“Nobody should ever take this hyperthyroid rooster too seriously,” said one commenter, adding that Cafferty is prone to “anti-Chinese diarrhea.”


Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33723.html

[xchrom]

1. perhaps the chinese government should take it's boot off the neck of the tibetan people -- give back

what isn't theirs -- do a better job of overseeing both public and private corruption -- etc.

this criticisms are along time coming -- and they are justified.

[snooper2]

2. And clean up their fucking country..

They make our pollution look like pollen...

[saigon68]

77. They are dogs scratching to cover-up their own dung and vomit

[nebula]

10. How about the US

taking its boot off the neck of the Iraqi people?

Americans should try to lead by example, not by rhetoric.

[xchrom]

11. one criticisms does not negate the other.

i'm sure you can hold a critical thought regarding china -- and one critical of the U.S

our actions in iraq were preceded by china's invasion and occupation of tibet.

it's suppresion of minority rights -- etc.

i'm equally critical of my own country for it's unjustifiable behavior.

[nebula]

13. I agree

but if you were China, what do you think about someone telling you what to do,
when they are essentially guilty of the same crime?

[sudopod]

32. This isn't an argument, it's an excuse

If we had a magic button that could restore Iraq to it's pre-invasion state, I really doubt China would leave Tibet. :p

[nebula]

33. We should be more concerned about getting out of Iraq

...before we start making demands on other sovereign nations to do the same with respect to their client states. Is all I'm saying.

[sudopod]

35. We CAN multitask

our brains are massively parallel processors, after all. ;)

[nebula]

38. We can

but no one likes to be told what to do by a hypocrite (the US gov't).

[sudopod]

40. Fair enough

but that doesn't mean we should speak out until we are ourselves perfect. Especially those of us who wanted nothing to do with "our" failings in the first place.

[Ignis]

48. What's next? "Hands Off Rwanda?"

:thumbsdown:

Even hypocrites can speak the truth.

[Trajan]

47. This is completely fallacious ...

Like a bank robber who insists other bank robbers quit robbing banks first ....

You are sounding like an apologist for China instead of a defender of Iraqis ...

[Teaser]

3. so sorry to have offended

and, btw, fuck you, China.

[mainegreen]

4. And china is prone to xenophobic, racist, hive mind bullshit.

"Greater China" is a farce.

[kristopher]

6. And you aren't?

[mainegreen]

7. What a load of bullshit.

China is not a happy wonderful place that promotes puppies and rainbows.
China is an oligarchic repressive state that minimizes personal freedoms of all sorts, has no respect at all for fair play either internally or externally, opposes self determination of any sort and has has a lovely tendency of invading neighboring countries and annexing them with the full support of the traditional Chinese population.

If this makes me xenophobic, than being xenophobic is the only morally tenable position.

Fuck China. They are not the good guys.

[Doctor Cynic]

8. Pot...and...kettle...

[mainegreen]

9. That doesn't even make sense.

Let's see..
when was the last time I personally invaded a foreign country? Or imprisoned someone for their beliefs? Or knowingly sold toxic products to children to make a buck? Or prevented citizens from one part of my country from going to schools because they did not have permission to move. Oh, that's right... NEVER!

Next you'll be telling me I'm a bad person because I don't think Iran is a lovely wonderful happy place that should have praise heaped upon it, but instead should be called out for the evil state it is murdering people because their gay (among other atrocities)?

It's ok to be liberal and outraged.

[tom_paine]

56. Actually, it does. See my post #53.

[AngryAmish]

76. I think you are forgetting your invasion of Singapore in 2002

Can anyone forget the headlines "Reports mainegreen Atrocities Common in Wake of Invasion"...

[Dutch]

34. Unforunately, the fact that they're not America seems to be enough to get some at DU slobbering

all over the tyrants of the CCP.

[tom_paine]

55. I think you are oversimplifying here.

Not that I am saying you are completely off-base. Statistically, the diversity of opinion here at DU does suggest that there are probably those who could be considered knee-jerk types who are "slobbering all over the tyrants of the CCP" because they are not America.

However, I think the large majority of people who may appear to be this way to you are actually aying what I said in my post below, which is annoyance that a nation which is now becoming so much like China should have the gall to criticize China for already being where our nation is clearly going.

The paraphrase an old saw, "People in Glass Empires shouldn't throw stones."

The same way our Empire looks increasingly ridiculous scolding other nation who also have crooked elections to clean up their crooked elections and human rights abuses while our ewlections are as crooked as theirs and our human rights abuses ramp up every month.

So, I believe that what you said is an oversimplification of the more rational view that America and American cannot hold morality over anyone. Only Free Nations with relatively clean human rights records can do that.

And that is not the nation in which we live, in any way, shape, or form.

[tom_paine]

53. No, China is not the Good Guys, but then neither is our Empire anymore

When we tell China to go fuck itself, we are only telling ourselves to go fuck ourselves because, like it or not, Bush-Occupied Amerika and Commie China are sister nations with similar governments.

Yes, we get treated a little nicer, but that is only because the Bushies have to wait for those of us who can remember what it was like to live free grow old and die before they can REALLY bring the hammer down, and get on with their Penultimate and Final Solutions to the Liberal problem (whatever those turn out to be)

But there can be no doubt that the spiritual distance seperating our Empire from China is the smallest that it has ever been.

Strip away the window dressing of our rigged elections (don't the Chinese have fake elections, too, just like us) and bring the hammer down a little harder on the Amerikan Subject Peasantry and the diference will become negligble.

You said:

China is an oligarchic repressive state that minimizes personal freedoms of all sorts, has no respect at all for fair play either internally or externally, opposes self determination of any sort and has has a lovely tendency of invading neighboring countries and annexing them with the full support of the traditional Chinese population.

But is not the same partially (and within 20 years soon to be wholly) true of our Empire?

The American Empire is an oligarchic repressive state that minimizes personal freedoms of all sorts, has no respect at all for fair play either internally or externally, opposes self determination of any sort and has has a lovely tendency of invading neighboring countries and annexing them with the full support of the traditional white American population.

You KNOW what I am saying is true. That is why it is hard to get worked up about China. We are getting closer to being just like them every single day and there is no indictaion this trend is going to reverse, even in the unlikely event that a Democrat is permitted to ascend the throne in November.

I mean, OK, Iraq wasn't exactly a neighboring country, but we fabricated a lie we KNEW was false and invaded them like Hitler lied about and invaded Poland. Other than that...

I do see your point and certainly you are right about China. But people in glass Empires...

[girl gone mad]

80. Okay..

but what's your argument going to be in 9 months when Obama is president and China is still ruled by the same corrupt communist regime?

Your logic would also argue against our involvement in WWII, since we were committing our own ethnic crimes at the time.

[tom_paine]

84. Just electing Obama isn't going to magically repair our System of Checks and Balances

It isn't going to turn our Toady Media to some less China-like.

And it most definitely does not extend towards involvement in WWII, as America for all it's faults and flaws (and ethnic crimes) was still a member of the Free World in those days.

Hell, American Hero Gen. Smedley Butler and FDR STOPPED the Bushies from taking over the country and likely oming into the war on the side of Prescott Bush's bosom chums, the Nazis.

Don't believe me? Think that's unfounded hyperbole? Well, listen to this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

[Xithras]

39. I had a Tibet conversation recently with a C/A Han. The guy sounded like a KKKer

He was rambling on about how awful Tibet was before the Han started moving in, and how much better the area is now that more Han live there. When I asked him about the Tibetans culture, he bluntly called the Tibetans uneducated and stupid, and called their culture worthless. He seriously considered the Han colonization to be a bonus for the area and gave no value to the people or the cultures there before.

I hate to say it, but it's the exact same attitude that the Europeans had when they colonized the America's and parts of Australia and Africa. They genuinely see themselves as bringing purer bloodlines and the torch of civilization to the unevolved backward brutes.

[kristopher]

5. US bigots love to scapegoat Asians

[xchrom]

12. that was simple minded -- to put it politely -- this is about the chinese government

and it's brutal acts of suppression and lack of oversight of corruption.

but of course you know that -- which makes your superior sounding post -- phony.

[Bonobo]

14. Umm, wrong. Did China kill 1 million brown people in the last 5 years?

[closeupready]

15. According to figures published by Amnesty International, it's very possible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1425570.stm

>>China executed more people in the last three months than the rest of the world did in the past three years, the human rights group Amnesty International says.

In a report published on Friday, the London-based group said China has put people to death not just for violent crimes, but also for offences such as bribery, embezzlement and stealing gasoline.

"The campaign is nothing short of an execution frenzy, a huge waste of human life," it says.

Xinjiang

Ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang have been executed for subversion
Using figures tallied from publicly available reports, Amnesty International said that since an anti-crime campaign, Strike Hard, was launched in April, China has carried out at least 1,781 executions and passed 2,960 death sentences.

In contrast, Amnesty International counted 1,751 executions in the rest of the world over the past three years.

But only a fraction of death sentences and executions in China are publicly reported and the actual number of people put to death is far higher, the group said.<<

[Bonobo]

16. You are off by three orders of magnitude.

[mainegreen]

18. That's just state executions as a result of a trial

Lets not forget those it shoots when it puts down starving abused peasant revolts, or those it just lets die in prisons due to malnutrition or lack of medical care, or returns of North Koreans it finds back to North Korea (most of those are executed), or those it kills knowingly with pollution or non-existent safety standards, or floods out, or just plain starves so it can redirect resources to the lucky urbanites. I'm sure we can rustle up a million people's death the government is responsible for over the last couple of years if we look.

[Bonobo]

20. If you include those, you must count the number of uninsured Americans (50 million)

that die each year from lack of health care.

Not to mention people that develop heart disease from chronic lack of dental care.

On edit: I stated it poorly. 50 million uninsured. Out of those, many die as a result.

[mainegreen]

43. To a certain extent, I do.

I'll not defend bad practices here.
However, China's government is far, far, far more evil than ours. We have a bad leader, they have an evil government.

[xchrom]

37. umm, wrong.

other than you -- some of us can hold more than one complicated thought in our brain at the same time.

i can critisize my country for it's unjustifiable behavior and hold china responsible for it's behavior.

[Haole Girl]

17. Do they think they own us?

Oh wait, I think they are about to. :eyes:

[ShockediSay]

51. They are our major creditor, for Bush's 'borrowed money war'

and what happens when they won't roll over US debt but just takes payment?

Ans: weaker US, weaker US economy and terrific inflation.

Who got us into this mess and how do we get out?

[DinahMoeHum]

19. Did someone pee-pee in Madame Jiang's winter melon soup today?

Poor baby.

:nopity::nopity:

[ckramer]

21. China demands CNN apology for "goons" comment

Source: R

BEIJING (Reuters) - China on Tuesday demanded that television news channel CNN apologize after one of its commentators said the Chinese were "goons" and that their products were "junk".

Jack Cafferty made the comments earlier this month on CNN's political program, The Situation Room.

"We are shocked at and strongly condemn the evil attack by the CNN anchor on the Chinese people," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told a regular news conference.

"Cafferty used the microphone in his hand to slander China and the Chinese people, and seriously violated reporting ethics."

Cafferty said the United States imported Chinese-made "junk with the lead paint on them and the poisoned pet food", adding: "They're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years," according to a copy of his comments carried on YouTube.



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSPEK25098920080415?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

---

Our creditor is angry. Watch out!

[MercutioATC]

22. Chnese products are NOT "junk"!

...and they're an excellent source of lead...

[Lerkfish]

25. and that lead content makes them heavier and more expensive to ship

:)

[truthisfreedom]

28. Lead is used in paint to make the colors more vibrant. Chinese goods are more colorful!

Yay!

[Dutch]

36. And much better tasting. n/t

[sentelle]

41. they really arent junk

They are 'exactly' as high quality as the corporate heads want them to be.

If Mattel (or any other company that manufactures in China) wants to make a committment to quality, they could, and would do so. Remember that there is a reason that these companies are in China. (Hint: costs).

I am not totally sure its fair to call chinese product 'junk'. Its only junk if whatever company hires the chinese permits it.

We would be better off boycotting the manufacturers who produce junk, rather than just the 'made in china' label.

Otherwise we are simply giving another multinational a free pass.

[NewJeffCT]

75. great point - how much quality control do the US companies in China do?

These aren't Chinese companies exporting products to the US. It is American companies importing Chinese-made goods that are manufactured in China for the American company to specifications made by the American company.

I mean, Mattel apologized to China over the magnets and lead-paint in their toys:

Suppose you’re a high-ranking official in China’s Communist Party and it’s your job to worry about improving the nation’s global image. Should you be pleased or dismayed by Mattel (MAT) executive vice president Thomas Debrowski’s September 21 apology “to the Chinese people”?

Odds are you’re tickled to death. And therein lies a problem.

It’s easy to see why a Chinese official might celebrate Mattel’s apology as a PR coup. After all, Debrowski did the full kowtow. He flew to Beijing, prostrated himself before China’s product safety chief and the Chinese press, and acknowledged unreservedly what Chinese officials have been saying for weeks: that the vast majority of Mattel’s latest toy recalls were the result of a Mattel design flaw, not substandard production by Chinese suppliers; that China has been blamed unfairly for Mattel’s mistakes; that Mattel’s handling of the recall sullied the reputation of all Chinese manufacturers.

As the flashbulbs popped, Debrowski told product safety boss Li Changjiang that “Mattel takes full responsibility for these recalls and apologizes personally to you, the Chinese people and all of our customers who received the toys.” That same day, Mattel headquarters issued a statement affirming that 17 million toys were recalled for Mattel design flaws, far outnumbering the 2 million recalled because of concerns about toxic paint from Chinese suppliers. Moreover, the statement regretted the paint-related recalls as “overly inclusive, including toys that may not have had lead in paint in excess of US standards.” That admission seemed to repudiate an earlier declaration by Mattel CEO Bob Eckert that the US toy maker had been “betrayed” by trusted Chinese suppliers.

http://chasingthedragon.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/09/25/why-mattels-apology-to-china-only-makes-it-worse/

[Critters2]

72. True enough! LOL! nt

[ckramer]

23. I guarantee Cafferty would be fired if China threatens to dump half of

its trillion US dollar reserve on the market tomorrow.

[Psephos]

79. And how would that not be taking aim directly at their own foot?

Take a look at the US housing market to see what effect dumping inventory does to the prices of all houses.

China dumps half (or even a tenth or even a hundredth) of its holdings on the market and the value of all their remaining holdings plummets like the Titanic's anchor.

There will be no quick-and-dirty divorce between China and the U.S.

[keep_it_real]

24. Cafferty said yesterday he meant

The Chinese government were goons but not the Chinese people.

[meegbear]

26. Whacha gonna do China? Put more lead in the toys?

[Jester Messiah]

63. ...or kill yet more of our family pets? [nt]

[DinahMoeHum]

27. Tsk tsk, did Cafferty lay a turd in Madame Jiang's winter melon soup

or something? Why the histrionics?

:nopity:

[tom_paine]

29. That's our Sister Nation. China and our Empire have the same form of government

Our Empire, of course, has to invest much more time, money and effort into pretendin for the peasants that we are NOT the same kind of government as China. It also cannot yet deal as swiftly and brutally with it's peasantry as China does with it's, but this is likely only necessary for just a little while longer.

We Amerikan Subjects are a broken and slavish people, able to be lied to at will and pushed in almost any direction. Only a few things, a very few, remain that the Bushies cannot do with impunity, but these mostly relate to the dead myths of Old America which the Bushies are pretending to keep alive until the peasantry is more enslaved and those of us who were born in freedom grow old and die.

How much longer until the final symmertry of the Sister Nations Imperial Amerika, and Commie China draw to completeness.

20 years. Tops. Maybe an awful lot sooner. It depends if the Bushies are planning another 9/11 before November or perhaps during the reign of the Emperor Bush MCain.

[cliss]

30. Best solution

to reclaim our power:

1. Stop buying Chinese junk. Buy American if at all possible. Or at least, don't buy Chinese.

2. Economic boycott is probably the most effective way to impact these thugs. Money talks..

[sudopod]

31. BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW

Put some ice on it, asshats.

[Signal2Noise]

42. A Matter of Perspective

I am still perplexed at the global outrage towards China. China's occupation/annexation is not unlike any other incursion over a native group by invaders/power-come-lately. I equate their control over the people of Tibet like that of any other group who has won and war and systematically assimilated or outcast the losing side.

Israelis over Palestinians, Soviets over the countries now fighting for autonomy, The French in Indochina, Europeans colonizing Africa, the "New World" and Oceania, and even the US incursion into Iraq. Can someone explain why Tibet is different? And why there is such support for autonomy for this country that has been under Chinese rule for 50 years?

Please don't take my comments as saying any of this is "right", but what am I missing? More people are dying in Darfur, Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc.

Someone please clue me in.

Oh, and by the way, Cafferty is an idiot.

[mainegreen]

44. Why can't we have global outrage at all of these things?

[Bonobo]

45. I don't mind the outrage percee, but all too often it is used to make us feel better

about ourselves.

The truth is we have WAY too much house-cleaning of our own to do before we wade in and start lecturing China.

One has to have a certain amount of moral integrity and standing to offer criticism and expect to be taken seriously.

[Acadia Blue]

46. Well they are poisening us............killing our kids with their toys, and

making lots of dangerous defective products. I think they deserve all they get. And they are killing Buddhist monks.
We have lots of hypocricy but I have not seen bush killing nuns or priests yets. F china.

[gregk]

60. re: A Matter of Perspective

I believe it is because of selective bias influenced by political agendas. Media coverage on the these events give free reign as a target to crusade against, unlike Palestine and East Europe where the U.S. is trying to get on the good side of the chief countries. As for the U.S. backing Pakistan in the 1971 Bangladesh genocide, the Iraq war, blame is placed on the president and his closest aides. When a American beef supplier was found to have been exporting contaminated meat due to poor practices, nobody blamed Americans as a whole nation or culture for it. But it seems that if one Chinese guy kicked his dog it would make headlines and enforce the notion that the whole of China and its culture sucks. I have not fully decided for myself whether China is right in governing Tibet, it is not clearcut as there is evidence on both sides. While the Tibetans have the Dalai Lama to administer them, China has politically been a part of Tibet and Tibet has been under the care of China with regard to foreign invasion for centuries. Tibetan rule goes against everything in Western ideology, like how the religious order should not be in political power. The Tibetan theocracy will not only govern but holds absolute power over the people. As for freedom and choice, many young children are drafted into monkhood for life and never given the choice as to how their life should turn out. I find most of the borders of the world in modern history are marked based on the political agendas of the deciding parties and the military strength of the parties involved. As an outsider I can only wonder how close I should hope for ideals or how practical the decision should be.

What I do see however, is the selective targetting of various countries, their ethnicity, religion, culture and form of government by the press and media. People and places like the Middle East, China, Russia, Japan, Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia, basically any place that does not sufficiently conform to "western" culture, religion, race and form of government. The greater the political threat/agenda, the greater the demonization. The press and media alter their targetting to enforce prevalent political agendas. At the height of the Cold War, evil russians with sinister accents infiltrated every country for world domination. The news would report dozens of Soviet spying activites and suppression of political dissidents every month. As minorities in America gain more political influence and form a stronger force in America's society, the press and media accordingly become more politically correct, in contrast to the press and media of the early 1900's when slavery was abolished and the agenda then was to give westerners time to adjust to the change.

Almost every story and show tells of 2 sides, the "good guys" who conform more with western values and the "bad guys" who threaten to violate these values and must be vanquished. It is no wonder that growing up in a situation where there is little or no positive information about foreign countries, with news and media full of accusations built on few facts and rumours, that there are brainwashed legions walking around with hatred and disdain for foreign countries and people. In this atmosphere it made it so easy for Bush to start a war in an already demonised Iraq. The bloggers flooding the forums enjoy living in societies which are relatively "freer" but do not really seem to have much choice of opinion considering their opinions are formed from information heavily skewed by political agendas.

The news and media whose original purpose is to provide information and entertainment do not just do that. They are also tools to influence opinion and support. That is the biggest obstacle to freedom in the West and the anger and outrage expressed here should be directed at them.

[girl gone mad]

81. This has nothing to do with..

American media.

The Chinese government is corrupt and their actions in Tibet are wrong on every level.

[gregk]

82. It has everything to do with the media

How many of the posters here have seen Tibet or China? Yet they are so sure that they know what these places are like. Here's a contrast: what's your opinion of XYZ country? no opinion? that's because you havent heard anything about it from the media or your neighbours. Everything you know about China and Tibet is from the news, media and rumours that you hear. The problem with that is the media takes its cue from political agendas. When you read only negative reports about a certain place for decades, you will believe it. This belief gets reinforced when those around you repeat the skewed information and build theories and accusations on them.

Try reading about subjects from multiple sources and you will be surprised how much information can be hidden or skewed to keep the readers thinking a certain way.

[guyanakoolaid]

49. Unfortunately for them i have the freedom of speech to tell those murderous bastards to shove their

indignation up their asses. Afterwards, instead of a cigarette they can just step out onto the streets of Beijing and inhale deeply.

They crush dissent with torture and murder. I am currently boycotting Chinese goods all I can.

We may be a world devil as well, but at least we have the freedom to speak the truth.

FUCK YOU, MURDERERS

[Ravachol]

57. Oh really?

You perhaps have the freedom to speak the truth on meaningless (to the government, at least) internet boards but go out there with your friends and relatives and start a riot, just like they did in Lhasa, and see how far you get without getting arrested, jailed and charged, just like the Chinese are currently doing to the Tibetans who revolted.

I don't see much differences between the USA and China, except that China isn't engaged in genocide, at least, not that I know of.

[guyanakoolaid]

59. There's not much difference - China and US both kill indiscriminately

But the US doesn't do it it's own citizens. Perhaps you do have a point, though, since Tibetans really aren't Chinese, simply part of the Chinese imperialism much like Iraq is a product of US imperialism. But it really takes some gall for you to defend the Chinese murderers, they have no right to occupy Tibet. When simple speech is met with jail, torture, and murder, eventually riots will happen, and they are justified. Yes, there are murderers in charge of the US, too, but like I said, I am free to call them murderers. And if an internet message board were not important at all, you wouldn't bother responding. So please, tell me more about how the Tibetans have it coming, you still might have a shred of credibility left to lose still.

[OKthatsIT]

69. But the US doesn't do it it's own citizens?

UMmmmm.... did you know Osama bin Laden is NOT on the FBI watch list?

Did we forget about 9/11?

[Downtown Hound]

50. China can go fuck itself

The thing is, with the way we've been acting lately, we're not really in a position to criticize anybody. That's just one of the many tragedies of the Bush administration. We have lost the moral high ground. Still, human rights violations are human rights violations, and China deserves all the criticism it can get for what it's done to Tibet.

[tom_paine]

52. You know I'd feel better about Cafferty's comment about China if our nation wasn't so much like it

now.

I mean WE'RE in a lawless and corrupt nation ruled by Bushie goons and thugs, so we're better than China how again?

[Skittles]

54. I feel that way too n/t

[Kaleko]

58. Yes, we are IN a lawless and corrupt nation, but that nation is not who we ARE.

We do not have to be identified with the place we were born in or live in currently.

The second part of your sentence, "...so we're better than China how again?" suggests that Americans, as individuals and free thinkers, lose the right to condemn ALL atrocities committed by any nation anywhere simply because of their nationality. That is a logical fallacy nobody needs to fall for, let alone be silenced by, ever.

[tom_paine]

62. I understand and respect the fact that you disagree, however

you make me consider a distinction here that I meant, but did not put into my post, did not flesh it out in my thoughts until you forced me to consider the nuance of it.

So, let me say that it is the institutional, not the individual condemnations that have me feeling as I do.

Our government has indeed lost the moral authority to condemn other nations for many atrocities, and those nations have more right than ever to ignore us.

I never mentioned nor believed people don't have the right to speak out, or even our national institutions like CNN and the rest of our Toady Media, which is a de facto national institution collectively...we and they have the right, it's just that what fool would listen? I mean, to take it to the nth degree to make my point, it's like having the Nazis criticize another nation about their treatment of minorities. Sure they could say that, they had the right, but who would be foolish enough to listen considering the source.

I do agree partially with your point. As INDIVIDUALS we may still have the moral authority (although, referring to my previous point, who would listen to the "moral authority" of the German who let Hitler get into power) to do so, and we always have the right, but our INSTITUTIONS should shut up and get back to doing what they do best lately...licking tyrants' boots and enabling the looting of the nation by said tyrants and criminals.

So, individuals and institutions have the right to spout off about atrocities from within the nation which most likely is the world leader in lost freedoms these last seven years. I don't know if you could quantify such a thing, but I have little doubt we would be at or near the lead in such a quantification. For one thing, most nations COULDN'T compete because you have to have the freedoms to lose them, so that narrows the field quite a bit.

But anyone else, me or anyone else, has the right to call bullshit and not listen. That's what happens when a nation and a people lose their moral authority before the world.

It is not so much that people don't have the right, it's just that it has lost so much weight and authority as to be a laughable mockery, like the Bushies telling the Ukrainians to reconsider new elections in 2004 right after ours was once again shamefully stolen in very similar ways to what allegedly happened in Ukrainia in 2004.

And THAT is no logical fallacy. That is a level of hypocrisy that usually cannot be achieved in Free Nations, it takes totalitarianism such as Amerika is now ruled by to create such soul-shredding, mind-numbing, tragi-comic hypocrisy.

So, to recap. The difference here is between individual and institutions. It is also the clear statement that of course we have the right, both as individuals and our institutions to condemn these things.

The rest of the world has the right to reply, "Why should we listen to the nation which no longer respects it's own laws and Constitution? Why should we listen to a people who have collectively bent down and kissed the tyrant's boot so repeatedly and thoroughly, surrendering their freedoms without even the tiniest fight?"

Hence my own reply.

Plus, the fact that Amerika and China are now ruled by essentially the same rigged, corrupt form of authoritarian government (yes we are treated nicer than the Chinese and we can pretend we have more rights than they...for a little while longer anyway) makes it even funnier.

In criticizing China, we are only criticizing our own nation. It's sad, really. But then, all totalitarian nations are sad like that, in whatever form they can be found including this new form which does not yet have a name. BushPutinism? Pseudo-democracy? New Totalitarianism? There is certainly a need to name and quantify what rules Amerika, Russia and China these days and give it a name, as it's chief safety from discovery it's camouflaging itself in the corpse skin of the old, defunct United States of America (1776-2000, God how I miss it) to delude a gullible populace.

I hope this clarifies my initial statements. And I do agree with you that we shall never lose the right as individual to condemn atrocities.

But who would be dumb enough to listen to the likes of us, each and every one of us whether we are Bushies or Free Americans, have the taste of tyrant's shoeleather on our tongues through our representatives, if nothing else? And I believe that each of us shares a good bit more than tangential responsibility, myself included, for what our nation has become. We can't pretend it happened in a vacuum and has nothing to do with us. Just as the Germans, each and every one of them, were responsible for the Nazis, so are we responsible for the Bushies.

But that is a topic for another day, another thread.

Finally, are you SURE that's not who we are? I mean, if one takes the 2000 and 2004 "elections" at face value - which I do not, but I am playing Devil's Advicate here - then UNLIKE the Germans of 1932, we gave our Hitler a far narrower margin of defeat (49.8-49.2%) in 2000 than the Germans gave their Bush in 1932 (68-32%). Our legislature, like the German Reichstag, has repeatedly acquisesed to criminal behavior from the Fuhrer and not dared to take him on no matter how blatant the evdience of criminality.

With all of that and more I have not mentioned, how can you say that it's not who we are, collectively? What will you say if and when McCain in crowned Emperor in November? How many do-overs do we get before it becomes clear THIS IS WHO WE REALLY ARE.

Just some food for thought as your post was food for thought to me.

[Kaleko]

65. Tom, I respect the way you are grappling with the issue of collective guilt.

That discussion will be going on for generations to come in the US, as it has for the Germans to this day.

In reality, America's current government is no more representative of the will of the majority than is China's. Only with a constant barrage of lethal threats and disinformation have a relatively few predatory psychopaths been able to seize power and maintain it.

Remember that skinny young man stopping the Chinese tanks in Tiananmen Square? THAT IS THE SPIRIT OF CHINA.
And more, that is the spirit of humanity facing the soulless profit-making machine: willing to die. He is you and he is I.

Americans have deliberately been shocked and awed since the coup that swept the Cheney-gang into the White House. Carefully, strategically traumatized.

Just like the Germans, Tibetans, Burmese and every other oppressed people, we MUST speak out, we have to scream and march and write and get creative in our outrage more than ever before.

And we are!

[Pachamama]

61. And what exactly did Jack Cafferty say about China that was not true?

The Chinese Gov't may be fuming and I'm sure they are putting as much money and effort behind a counter-punch propaganda campaign to respond by the sentiments of people against China's policies related to Tibet, Darfur and even the crap that gets sold here in this country. And they are probably going to do all they can to get Cafferty fired. I saw last week at the so-called "Olympic Torch Relay" in San Francisco to what lengths the Chinese Gov't will go to drive their propaganda. Not only did the Chinese Gov't bus in thousands of Pro-Chinese demonstrators, they had them carrying 5x8 ft Chinese Flags on poles to drown out and cover any signs or Tibetan Flags so all you saw were Chinese Flags. (and hardly an Olympic flag or symbol anywhere). Meanwhile, there is a former monk who lives here in Marin County where I am, and this man runs the Tibetan Culture House and he has been getting robo-calls (they believe from China) and threats that the Police are investigating.

Yeah, and the Dalai Lama is all to blame if you believe the Chinese PR folks.... :eyes:

[Voltaire99]

64. Not too smart to upset the sugar daddy.

Who do these petty little shrimps, Pelosi, Cafferty, etc., think has been keeping us afloat?

It's true China is abysmal towards Tibet, and that it exports tons of lethal crap. It's also true that the rotten neoliberalism in which our party has engaged has brought us to this low hour, where we depend on China and have zero influence now on these grave matters.

Yes, ironically enough, in once sense the Chinese are right, although they didn't intend it this way. Nancy Pelosi *is* disgusting.

[EstimatedProphet]

66. I knew calling Pelosi names would make the Chinese some friends on this site!

[KansDem]

67. Guess we better start apologizing! (nt)

[OKthatsIT]

68. CHINA, keep your police thugs in your own country

STOP FALSE FLAGGING the Tibetan People. We know you're sending in thugs to impersonate Tibetan resistance, making Tibetans look violent. Just so you can have the excuse to exterminate Tibetans with the world as your sitness. Stop trying to fake everyone out. WE SEE YOU. Leave Tibetans alone!

AND you better think twice before you sed your thugs over here(USA), again. WE SEE YOU.

WE, The People of the US, have enough problems with our own 'operatives' posing as KKK and White Nationalists.

[ryanmuegge]

70. It's amazing to me that people will defend the Chinese government just to throw the self-righteous

"racist" or "xenophobic" insult out at people.

And, yeah, the US government is shit, too. Our government is an military empire that engages in intimidation, pre-emptive violence, and supports dictators. However, the Chinese government, by any objective measure, is total shit. They treat their own fucking people like shit (to a significantly greater to degree than the US does).

Fuck anybody who defends the Chinese government.

[ForrestGump]

83. Exactly

Seems like at least a few hereabouts instantly equate (or, at least, go through the motions of doing so even if they really know better) criticism of China as a nation, as a government, with racism. It's the same kind of thing that often happens when Israel is criticized -- cries of antisemitism that are not warranted (and that make me wonder what the respondents' knee-jerk reply would be to Israelis who criticize their own government, for such people do actually exist). Totally bogus.

So, yeah: Chinese people...cool...the proverbial "some of my best friends"...etc, etc, etc. Chinese government, though: bozos...pigs...totalitarian neocapitalist bad guys who belong in James Bond films. I'm a huge sinophile but it's hard to deny that their government sucks most egregiously and has done so for a long time. When it appeared that I might be leaving the USA, back in the late '80s, my plan was to work in Europe until I'd secured enough cash to pay for a backpacking adventure through China, back when doing that was still a fairly rare thing, but then Tiananmen Square happened and I threw that plan out the window until the PRC had a halfway decent government in power. Despite the attrition of Old Guard hardliners, and many changes in society even outside the Special Economic Zones of years back, China is still an oppressed and oppressive country, with serious and growing problems in its every aspect. It's going to be the next superpower, sure, but as mightily as the US (for example) deserves to get a reality check the prospect of an ever more mighty China is not entirely a happy one.

And, yeah, that the US' own government and society are shredded almost beyond repair (certainly beyond a quick fix), and that Americans currently have no collective moral high ground from which to denounce other banana republics and abusers of human rights, does not mean that we can't point out China's failings and excesses, too. Recognizing our own country's evil does not disallow expression of outrage toward other régimes, many arguably worse in terms of their everyday depredations on their citizenry.

[unkachuck]

71. China has invested....

....heavily in the Olympic games and her world image....she must now see our anti-Chinese Western media as a threat to this capital investment and being possibly coordinated from the WH....well, duh....

....don't be self-absorbed and ungrateful my fellow Americans....China has been THE major manufacturer and supplier of all the useless junk you've been demanding for the last decade or two....

....China has been kind enough to satisfy your junk-addiction on credit as you've been dismantling our manufacturing base to put Union people like me out of work....

....and please, don't be jealous that China is on the ascendancy and you're on the decline, it looks tacky....

[Matilda]

73. China is riding to ascendancy on the backs of its own people.

That is my concern - it's a pity that the issue of Tibet has dominated the protests against the
Beijing Games, because while it's valid, it's not the only issue.

The Chinese are currently somewhere in a no-man's land between communism and capitalism. Not so long
ago, they could rely on the State for education and health care - now the State itself has dismantled
the old system, but in their rush to embrace the worst of capitalism, they've neglected to put any
safeguards in place for the ordinary workers and their families.

What about the children who work in sweatshops to provide the West with trendy sportswear, etc?
Children of twelve in these factories are common, and some are even younger. They are being denied
the education they should have, forced to work to help out families who no longer have any State-
supplied safety nets.

If workers fall sick or are injured, they are thrown on their own resources - the State is failing
to cover them for health issues, but they lack the resources to be able to pay their own way. These
are just two issues that I've heard about.

Yesterday, I read that all heavy industry in and around Beijing is to be shut down for two months
between July and September, in an attempt to cut down the appalling pollution that pervades the whole
city. Companies that produce heavy pollution, and coal-burning boilers that fail to meet emission
standards will be closed as well, and as many cars as possible will be banned from the city. People
are being encouraged to take holidays during the period of the Games. Companies affected will be
exempt from having to pay pollution tax for the period of the shutdown.

The downside? Workers will be left without pay; even the companies concerned will be unable to
generate income, and there will be no compensation from the State. Only a totalitarian regime could
do this - and it's all just for show for the Games; there's no real attempt to cut down on pollution
in the long-term.

The many are paying for the excesses of the privileged few - just like the West. But we at least
have learned to put in place safety nets to protect the lowest paid and the most vulnerable in our
society. Any good that came of the Communist years has been jettisoned in China, and it's every
man for himself - and those at the bottom of the heap have no chance.

[saigon68]

78. They now sell more Lanborghinis in China than any where else

They only cost $390,000.00 $$$$$$ each

From Forbes

http://www.forbes.com/2005/11/08/lamborghini-vw-china-cx_po_1108autofacescan06.html

The number of Chinese billionaires has more than tripled in the past year, according to a Forbes survey, and the surge in affluent consumers has not gone unnoticed by a number of companies including Volkswagen's Lamborghini. The luxury carmaker is exploiting China's growing taste for expensive Western goods, and on Tuesday, opened its first dealership in the populous country.

Lamborghini, overseen by Volkswagen's Chief Executive Bernd Pischetsrieder, is revving up behind Fiat (nyse: FIA - news - people )-owned Ferrari, Volkswagon's Bentley and other luxury European marques heading into China to taking advantage of the increasing amount of disposable wealth. Prices for the sleek sports car start at $330,000, but that won't be a problem for the opulent residents in Shanghai. Lamborghini's market research showed that the country's biggest city was also a citadel of consumption and a promising market for its vehicles.

[gorbal]

74. Just put it this way- China's government is to much like the US

Think about it-we have the same problem. Our leaders are two proud to admit they are wrong so they keep doing the wrong things.

To those who are upset about China getting a bad rap-China is, or is going to be, the most powerful nation in the world-get used to critism.

[CADEMOCRAT7]

85. Avaaz.org Addressing the Chinese Nationalism

Avaaz.org's attempt to address the backlash of Chinese Nationalism:


"Dear Friends,

The Beijing Olympics are a crucial chance to persuade China's leaders to support dialogue and human rights in Tibet, as well as Burma and Darfur, and we need to seize it.

China wants the Olympics to be a coming out party for a newly modern, powerful, and respectable nation. But the Olympics are about humanity and excellence--we can't celebrate them in good conscience while ignoring the suffering of Tibetans and others.

So Avaaz is launching a major new campaign: SAVE THE OLYMPICS. We'll ask China to save the Olympics for all of us, by making specific, reasonable progress in dialogue with the Dalai Lama, securing release of Burmese and Tibetan political prisoners, and supporting peacekeeping in Darfur.

Our appeal will be placed on billboards and ads in major cities, in Chinese overseas publications, and we'll hire a Chinese language team to engage directly on China's lively blogs and in chatrooms. We need 10,000 donations from people from 100 countries to kickstart the campaign this week with a truly global sponsorship--click below to see the ads and donate whatever you can, however small:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/save_the_olympics/3.php

Within China, where the Olympics were once seen as a victory for greater openness and internationalism, the internal debate has taken a bitter turn. Most Chinese are now growing angry over Olympic activism, seeing it as biased and "anti-Chinese."

If the games are a fiasco, China's repressive hardliners will win the day--and we could see the worst crackdown yet.

We need to stop this, and fast. So our campaign aims to reach out to China and Chinese people to show that we're not anti-China but pro-humanitarian, and that our desire is to save the 2008 Olympics, not ruin them. Click below to donate now:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/save_the_olympics/3.php

The Slogan of the 2008 Olympics is "One World, One Dream". Let's reach across barriers of perception and division, and ask the Chinese to make this dream come true for us this summer.

With hope,

Ricken, Ben, Graziela, Galit, Pascal, Iain, Milena, Sabrina and the whole Avaaz Team. "