Judge rules to leave sect children in state custody

[eppur_se_muova]

Source: AP/Houston Chronicle

By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press

SAN ANGELO — The 416 children taken from a ranch run by a polygamous sect will stay in state custody and be subject to genetic testing to sort out family relationships that have confounded welfare authorities, a judge ruled Friday.

State District Judge Barbara Walther heard 21 hours of testimony over two days before ruling that the children would be kept in custody while the state continues to investigate allegations of abuse stemming from the teachings of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

"This is but the beginning," Walther said. Individual hearings will be set for the children over the next several weeks.

Walther ordered that all 416 children and parents be given genetic tests. Child welfare officials have said they've had difficulty determining how the children and adults are related because of evasive or changing answers.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5713398.html

[derby378]

1. Damn straight this is only the beginning...

There's also the "lost boys" to consider, young male followers of Warren Jeffs who were expelled from the FLDS compound in Eldorado for a number of reasons, among them perceived threats to the Jeffs-dominated male hegemony at the compound. I'll bet they fathered more than their share of kids out of Jeffs-approved wedlock, which probably accounts for at least some of the expulsions.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

17. Not just Eldorado

The "lost boy" phenomena is common to every polygamous Mormon group. Pick up Andrea Moore-Emmett's God's Brothel. It tells the story of 18 women who left Mormon polygamy. All of them had been abused.

[JeanGrey]

119. I have a feeling that when the DNA tests get done, the world

is going to really find out how horrible this is. I do have a question? WHERE ARE THE MEN

[derby378]

126. ginbarn's been asking the same thing...

Why aren't the male sect members being hauled in by the cops for questioning, especially since the odds are excellent that we're going to unearth numerous statutory rape and child molestation charges, for starters?

[JeanGrey]

129. They'd better be! I want DNA done on the men as well!

Let's find out who raped girls and made babies by the dozens.

[Kittycat]

2. Forced DNA Tests...

One part of me is very opposed to this, but the other part of me knows that these kids have got to be helped, and this may be the only way to ensure it.

[sandnsea]

3. Defining parentage for welfare benefits

happens all the time. So in that sense, this is no big deal. I don't know what it means in the long run of self-incrimination for some of these men.

[papau]

4. choice - prove you're the incestuous father to see kid, get welfare - then go to jail

or find a real job that does not involve state aid for the kids and the families of the kids.

This cult is a way for the men not to work, get income and sex from the women and kids, and claim it is the life of a true Mormon - all real Mormon's should stop shielding these people.

[MichiganVote]

5. Such a deal. Dispicable.

[dflprincess]

6. I heard on CNN that another reason this is being done is to help them figure out which kids were

born to women who were underage at the time of the child's birth. That alone will be enough to charge the fathers with statutory rape.

[sandnsea]

7. Can someone be required to give fingerprints before arrest?

I really don't know, or my brain just isn't fully engaged. Have they settled the law on when they can require DNA samples from suspects?

[LisaL]

8. What would these women be suspects of?

[sandnsea]

9. Welfare fraud?

They can already ask for DNA to determine parentage for welfare. The women and children have no rights in that regard, I'm sure you sign away your rights when you apply for benefits. The men, otoh, I don't know. I'm not defending them, just wondering from a strictly legal standpoint.

[LisaL]

10. Where is any evidence they are actually on welfare?

[sandnsea]

11. Oh you know what

I didn't know you were a rhetorical poster. My bad. Go get your jollies somewhere else.

[LisaL]

12. A rhetorical poster? Give me a break.

I don't know how these people support themselves, but if they were on welfare, why doesn't the state already know whose child belongs to whom?

[sandnsea]

13. Read. They LIE. n/t

[pnwmom]

38. The consequence of a lie occurring on an application for foodstamps

is not nearly as potentially damaging as a lie occurring during an investigation for child abuse.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

20. Several former members have attested to the practice.

[roguevalley]

75. they use welfare to support themselves, in the millions a year. its a

scam. they need to go to jail, the men that is. those women are sick and need help.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

14. I have a feeling the women would not be considered liable for anything...

due to the fact that they were brainwashed.

[pnwmom]

39. That may turn out to be dependent on the individual situation.

In a sense, you could say that generations of both genders have been brainwashed.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

42. That's true...

I don't know enough of how they lived...what access they had to TV or outside influences which could have given them a clue that their behavior was abusive and illegal.

[pnwmom]

45. From what I understand, they had no TV, internet, public schools, etc.

But ignorance of the law is not a legal defense.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

49. I saw some of the women being interviewed...

They were repeatedly asked if they knew about the bed in their church, and they would not answer. They just kept saying this was about their children being taken from them. But I couldn't help wondering if they were afraid to answer because of what might happen to them.

[CTyankee]

105. I saw that too. Creeped me out. I think they were told what to say to which question.

They had been drilled in giving these answers. that alone convinces me that they "knew" damn well what they were saying was a lie. They were covering up, pure and simple.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

111. They probably figure lying and going to jail

beats eternal damnation for disobeying their men.

[musette_sf]

125. i actually think that

lying to "the law of man" to protect "the law of G-d" is a tenet of the cult.

i'm not going to Google this to satisfy the apologists and libertarians. i'll just say that i recently read "No Man Knows My History" and i recall that lying to protect the cult was the expected practice.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

52. But the purpose of law is to uphold justice.

How just would it be to throw the book at people who were never given the opportunity to know better?

[pnwmom]

58. There are no easy answers, that's for sure. n/t

[NashVegas]

117. "Ignorance of the Law Is Not a Defense"

There have been enough cases of other women who mustered up what was needed to leave the cult to disqualify the notion that these women didn't know better. I kind of doubt we will see any of the teenaged girls' mothers get charged; that doesn't mean they ought to get custody back.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

128. Most of the women who left previously...

...fall into one or more of the following categories:

1 - Were unusually intelligent or resourceful, and would have been leaders in society had life dealt them a better hand.
2 - Were excommunicated and thrown out for one reason or another.
3 - Had a sister or close family member who left, but later came back for them.

[roguevalley]

76. they weren't even allowed to smile.

[kestrel91316]

85. If they think that what they are doing is completely legal, why

are they working so hard to cover it up?? Why would anyone deny committing what they believed was a perfectly legal act??

[GoddessOfGuinness]

112. It could easily have been explained

as "god's will" vs "the will of the infidel government" or something akin to that. It's deranged reasoning, which rarely has anything to do with reason.

[kestrel91316]

83. I'm betting that women who continue to try to interfere and aren't cooperative

may find them charged as accessories to rape, and women who cooperate and testify against the men will not.

[CTyankee]

106. If they cooperate they may have a real chance at getting their children back.

That's a big incentive. However, given their brainwashing and the fact that they have already allowed their sons to be sent away and their daughters to be raped, maybe their brainwashing just trumps everything else.

[XemaSab]

109. Does the law recognize brainwashing?

:shrug:

[JeanGrey]

121. Unless the women participated in abuse of children and other

women. Stories of women beating others are rampant. That constitutes a crime to me.

[pnwmom]

36. Legally, they are considered adults, no matter how subservient they

may be.

So they are legally culpable if they stood by and allowed their daughters to be forced into sex (including "spiritual marriages") before the age of consent (age 17, unless the girl is legally married).

[roguevalley]

78. it would depend upon their competency at the time.

[kestrel91316]

81. Why are you STILL supporting child rapists?

[CTyankee]

104. Bigamy.

They are complicit in a bigamous marriage. Or at least that was what I learned on GMA the other day, from the prosecutor I believe.

[dflprincess]

15. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure how much probable cause is required

to get DNA samples. It probably varies from state to state but it seems a pretty common practice to get DNA from rape suspects.

[LisaL]

16. You don't just get DNA from rape suspects.

Either the suspects has to agree to give DNA, or a court order needs to be obtained-for which probable cause is needed.

[roguevalley]

79. the judge ordered it to be taken

[kestrel91316]

90. There isn't a rape case yet. This is in order to determine child

custody. If there is any dispute as to who has a right to custody of a child, DNA is pretty much the gold standard now. The women have given multiple false names. The children have given multiple names and named multiple mothers.

You don't SERIOUSLY propose just letting every one of the FLDS parents point to kids cnd claim them as theirs without any proof, do you?

Why do you continue to support child abusers??

[JeanGrey]

122. There is plenty of "probable cause".

[pnwmom]

47. The adults are refusing to identify themselves or their children.

The judge didn't have much of a choice.

[kestrel91316]

87. No one is being forced to give a DNA sample. It's simply a

condition of trying to get an abused child back. No unreasonable search and seizure involved. Which is why you haven't heard any of the attorneys screeching on TV about it.

[pnwmom]

35. People can be required to show identity before arrest

according to a Supreme Court decision a couple of years ago.

These people were withholding names, changing names, not providing birth certificates.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

37. Context

- some of these people don't have birth certificates.
- some of these people don't have personal access to their birth certificates.
- these people have been raised to fear the outside world and think it is okay to lie to non-cult members.
- a lot of these people have the mentality and maturity of eleven-year-olds.

[pnwmom]

48. That may all be true, but it doesn't obviate the need for the state of Texas

to determine the identities of the children and their parents.

(P.S. Mothers who give different names at different times, or claim children one day and say they belong to someone else on another, can't be said to be cooperative. I seriously doubt that any mother there is so incompetent she can't name and point out her own children. And if she is, then she probably shouldn't have custody.)

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

51. I think we've already agreed on this point elsewhere.

And like you, I hope the DNA testing works. My big fear is that the parents themselves lack the maturity and mental capacity to look after their children.

[pnwmom]

54. Yes. And we agree that

there are no obvious, satisfactory, long term answers.

It's such a sad situation.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

60. My own thoughts

1) Give temporary custody to former FLDS members who in many cases are related and willing to step in.

2) Allow the mothers and younger fathers supervised visitation.

3) Grant amnesty for the mothers and younger fathers, in exchange for getting help and providing testimony against the FLDS leadership.

4) Give the parents the help and support they need to deal.

5) Give kids the help and support they need.

6) Insofar as possible, once it is prudent to do so, bring the families back together.

[pnwmom]

66. Getting them to provide testimony against the leadership

could be the biggest challenge.

But it would certainly be a critical step toward ending the dysfunction.

[kestrel91316]

93. Those women would cave in a heartbeat if they were themselves charged

as accessories to child rape and faced with life in prison (or whatever). They want to be with their kids, and that's how this case (the criminal aspect) is gonna go down. LOTS of plea deals and probation.

[kestrel91316]

92. Yep. Exactly.

Frankly, I think everyone over 18 in that place should be charged as an accessory to rape, and some as rapists. Then let the plea deals for cooperation begin. Those mothers would mostly cave and start talking if they were faced with life in prison.

We will see this. Just watch.

And yes, I fully support leniency if they are willing to remove the kids PERMANENTLY from this abusive situation or any others like it.

[FormerOstrich]

114. IndyHatedByBothSides

Your reply is very logical and would apply to most instances....However, not in this case. I lived in Utah, have known older and younger generation polygamists, and I have read a ton of information on the topic because I find it so surreal.

1) Give temporary custody to former FLDS members who in many cases are related and willing to step in. Maybe if you can find enough families which have transitioned to mainstream and can help these children transition. You can't put these kids back into environments where things are the same but just not spoken aloud...or there is any sort of underlying support for the former lifestyle. To do so would be detrimental to the kids.

2) Allow the mothers and younger fathers supervised visitation. I would be very cautious here. Only if the mother and father are practicing monogamous relationships. If the mother and father are not in a monogamous relationship together their visits should be separate. No visitation to all the other "mothers" of these children.

3) Grant amnesty for the mothers and younger fathers, in exchange for getting help and providing testimony against the FLDS leadership. Not a bad idea as long as they realize they can no longer practice plural marriage...EVER.

4) Give the parents the help and support they need to deal. Highly unlikely they will take it. The parents need separated from each other and placed where they can not communicate until a certain period of time for re-education passes (including those discussed in your #3)

5) Give kids the help and support they need.I believe the only thing worse than not having acted for these children is for them to EVER be returned to similar circumstances. Of course once they are of age, there is little can be done...until then they should not be trying to reconcile these children back to their families (because many will go right back to the practice)

6) Insofar as possible, once it is prudent to do so, bring the families back together. I really disagree with you. Bring them back together only if they are in the same stages of healing with no signs of slipping backward. Keep in mind, the reason many of these children are not properly identifying their parents is because the don't know. They have multiple mothers and don't know maternal mother versus other kind of mother. Dad's are players in the Church, not like Dad's most know. I say avoid family contact except with family members which are denouncing the practice and meaning it.

You have very good input....I just am not sure your methods would work in this severe of circumstance!

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

127. Response to FormerOstrich

Thanks for your comments and insight. I would like to respond to your last point first, as it puts into context the rest of my thoughts:

"I just am not sure your methods would work in this severe of circumstance!"

At best it would be an imperfect solution. But such is the nature of this tragedy. No resolution can be good, only more or less harmful than the current situation in which these children, women and young men find themselves. Thus the question we need to keep before us in addressing this situation is to ask what will do the least amount of harm.

1) "Maybe if you can find enough families which have transitioned to mainstream and can help these children transition."

My fault, sorry, I ought to have been more specific. By "former" I mean those who not only left or forced out of the FLDS, but who have renounced polygamy and its related social ills, and who have made a sufficient transition to a normal lifestyle. Additionally, there may not be sufficient former members to provide temporary foster care to all the children taken, however, former FLDS (who have healed sufficiently) should be given the first opportunity to take these children in.

What's now happening is very scary for these children. Someone who has worked their way through the same problem can relate much more easily, and I feel, sympathetically.

2) "If the mother and father are not in a monogamous relationship together their visits should be separate."

Again, thanks for clarifying my intentions. What I mean is that the biological mother should have access to supervised visitation, and where warranted, the father too. Not necessarily together.


4) "The parents need separated from each other and placed where they can not communicate until a certain period of time for re-education passes"

This help can be individual, or as a group, as warranted.

6) "I really disagree with you. Bring them back together only if they are in the same stages of healing with no signs of slipping backward."

That's what I mean with "insofar as possible, and only if prudent". Basically, the goal here should be to keep each mother and her children together, if the mother can be rehabilitated, and where possible, the father as well. This won't be possible or prudent with everyone, but where it is possible it should be pursued.

[FormerOstrich]

130. I think it seems we are pretty much on the same wave

length...except I may be a tad less optimistic than you.

Many of these women have known no other lifestyle, are likely victims of emotional, physical, and incestuous abuse. They have "willingly" watched and/or participated as their (young) sons, and occasionally husbands, cast out to fend for themselves with nothing.

They "willingly" allowed themselves and young daughters to be "married/sealed" in forced relationships.

I struggle to understand how these women can possibly rehabilitate or heal in the time necessary to help in their children's healing.

Perhaps there isn't much difference between these than a drug addicted mother or other abused women where reconciliation is the recommended course of action. But I think there is. In the later, the women typically had some sort of normalcy (relatively speaking) in their own or relatives lives to draw from. That is not the case for the FLDS women.

Certainly a tough call and I'm not qualified in the least on such matters.

Personally, what I would think might be the most helpful is for the LDS church to take these kids in, have special classes to teach them the origins, place them with influential families. Perhaps, then I would be more optimistic about the maternal mother's involvements.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe that's going to happen....not even close. That's because the truth is the mainstream LDS church still struggles with the topic. After all, while not labeled accordingly, Polygamy is still practiced in heaven (according to their scriptures). Segments of the church view the topic with shame, but others with anger at the interference.

Thanks for your input, IndyHatedByBothSides and allowing me to vent mine!!!

[NashVegas]

118. On the Subject of Mormons and Birth Records

It's a safe bet that somewhere, there are meticulous records for this particular family forest.

[murielm99]

67. Since these people are all so interrelated,

it could be difficult to untangle, even with DNA tests.

It seems they are mostly descended from two families: Barlow and Jessop.

[JeanGrey]

123. No, DNA is exact. It won't be hard it will just take time.

[kestrel91316]

80. Yep. They will be able to prove rape resulting in a child in

several cases, is my guess.

[JeanGrey]

120. OUTSTANDING.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

19. The fathers don't really care...

...if they see the kids or not. It's the women they're after. The fathers would just as soon the kids remain the responsibility of the mothers until the girls are ready to have sex.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

18. Doesn't always work.

Lot of the kids aren't registered. So they don't have birth certificates. Other times the mothers will lie and randomly pick two or three names out of the phonebook, rearrange them and give them to officials as the father's name.

[sandnsea]

21. Which is why they're testing DNA

My point was that because they applied for welfare benefits, as I understand it, there is already a legal basis to demand DNA from them. I don't know if you could just round people up and demand DNA otherwise. And I don't know how they're going to use DNA in a welfare case to prosecute in a rape or incest case. Seems like self-incrimination.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

23. I'm not sure the DNA will work either

given all the incest and in-breading that takes place. And I don't mean it sarcastically. I read the story of one former member who escaped. She said her sex education was being raped by her father.

[LisaL]

25. I think DNA test is going to determine paternity

even if people are related, with an exception of identical twins.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

27. Is it still effective when you have that much incest?

I'm asking the question because I honestly don't know the answer.

[sandnsea]

28. I don't think it's generational

I have the impression this is a fairly current thing, that there might be instances of fathers/daughters, but not any more than that. I don't think they go back to the turn of the last century, do they?

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

29. I'm told that it is also generational

In fact one former member told me her introduction to sex ed was being raped by her father. This was during the late 50's or early 60's too.

[sandnsea]

30. Well what I mean is --

god can you believe we're having this discussion -- is that your friend wasn't attacked by a grandfather too, or maybe if your friend had a child and then the grandfather would take that one, so that there wasn't that much mixing up of DNA. I just didn't think any one compound had existed long enough.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

31. I don't know

But you also have to factor in chimeras (people with more than one DNA, not the mythological creatures), the fact girls are married off the moment they hit puberty, multiple wife reassignment, generations of incest, etc...

Can DNA effectively test under these conditions?

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

33. PS Sick, but yes

Long story, but I'm acquainted with some former members through a workshop I attended years ago on sexual abuse and religious cults. So I've known about these stories and what goes on well before the media exposed it. There's a lot that hasn't gotten out yet. And it's even more sick.

[sandnsea]

44. We knew someone who was part of a cult

Yes I know these things can just make the hair on the back of your neck stand on end. The guy we knew was convinced he was damned and there was nothing he could do about it. He gradually worked his way out of it, with a lot of help from a lot of loving people. Fear is pretty powerful. It can make people believe anything.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

50. Yep, same experience here

I've never met anyone who was part of that cult that didn't have the "I'm damned" experience after leaving. But what scares me most is that almost all of them wanted to commit suicide as children.

[roguevalley]

82. makes you wonder about Romney, whose father was born in a

polygamy colony in Mexico.

[harmonicon]

70. read 'Under the Banner of Heaven'

It's a great book, and deals with the histories of several former FLDS members, as well as the history of the church and Mormonism, in general, with a focus on extreme of fundamentalist factions.

In one case, through a series of marriages (it's really slave trading - if a husband wants to get rid of his wife, they marry her off to someone else) and strange relationships, a woman became her own grandmother.... yeah, strange, I know.

These family histories are incredibly complicated and do go back, in many cases, to the 1850s.

[XemaSab]

110. Most of the people in this group are descended from two families:

The Barlows and the Jessops. There are also a lot of Jeffs in town too, as well as a few other families.

They've basically been isolated for 120 years... and since a kid can have 50 half-siblings, it's full of inbreeding. They're trying to breed a pure master race for the priesthood.

It's not just a few isolated instances kids being the product of incest/inbreeding, it's daughters marrying half-uncles and first cousins and all that, for generations.

[pnwmom]

46. Not that current. The FLDS broke off from the Mormons in the 1930's.

With girls getting pregnant in their teens, there have been several generations of FLDSers who have lived their lives in the sect.

[sandnsea]

53. This picture shows 2004 construction

Obviously all this couldn't happen in 3 years. But I'm just trying to understand how this goes on in one location for decades. I remember when I lived in Montana there were vague references to a Mormon compound in the Bitterroot, but I didn't think too much about it. Do you think this is what it was too?

http://web.sccn2.net/FLDS/Started.htm

[pnwmom]

55. The FLDS at the YFZ ranch are a portion of the people who were

living in the Utah/Arizona communities of the sect. (They are considered the elect -- they were hand chosen by Warren Jeffs to move to El Dorado.)

This hasn't gone on in the Texas location for decades, but it has gone on among this very closed sect (just in different locations) for generations.

[sandnsea]

56. Since the 1930's, right?

Are there any more of these sects, where the leader is known, etc.

[pnwmom]

57. Here's some info.

http://utahbooks.com/Polygamy_Groups.htm

[sandnsea]

59. OMG, yep, Pinesdale

That was the one I was thinking of. It's listed there. So I guess I know how they get by with it. Everybody just ignores them. There sure are a lot more of these groups than I ever would have guessed. Thanks for the info.

[pnwmom]

65. My mother didn't realize that she was living near them.

When she saw a few of the women shopping in their pioneer dresses, she assumed they were going to a costume party.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

68. Montana has a bunch of religious groups

Hudderites up on the Canadian border, Mennonites in the Bitterroot. They both dress in traditional garb. Then there's that Church Universal Triumphant bunch down around Yellowstone. And a bunch of others in between, including these polygamists I guess. Makes it a little harder to identify the worst of them.

[kestrel91316]

95. That's just, well......sad. lol

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

63. Yes, quite a few

The Kingston Clan is also well-known, and there are several smaller sects, breakaway sects, and independent Mormon polygamists too.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

61. Here's how this goes on

1) Three different countries involved - Canada, U.S., Mexico
2) An area still somewhat sympathetic to polygamy - Utah
3) Twin cities at a remote border point between two states - so people can shift back and forth should one state raid.
4) Local law enforcement, schools and town council controlled by group members.
5) Victims who don't know they have rights.
6) Politicians scared to take action because it's none of their business what people do in the privacy of their bedroom and freedom of religion.

[sandnsea]

64. Well, since I lived 30 miles from Pinesdale

and heard the rumors myself, although nothing about incest or teen 'marriages', I know it happens because good people do nothing. I think it's just such a western cultural value to myob. That's how Ted Kaczynski managed for so long. There's all kinds of weird little groups in Montana. Some are much like the Amish, and some obviously aren't. Maybe they will start cracking down on this now that it's more known.

[senaca]

72. NCLB

If the schools are controlled often by group members how do they get around NCLB? Even homeschoolers and private schools take some sort of test for accountability. If they leave school at such young ages wouldn't the state have a say in that? Where we live if a child is gone from school more than three days without excuse the parents go to court. I'm wondering if that will be another issue in the court. Maybe that would widen the charges too much though.

[kestrel91316]

96. They pulled all their kids out of the local public school in UT/AZ

a few years ago and bankrupted the school system. They "homeschool" - girls learn how to cook and clean and submit to rape. Boys learn how to drive a tractor and abuse women. None apparently learn anything at all about their rights, other than the First Amendment.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

107. One eye is shut, the other doesn't see too well

1 - Utah doesn't want another showdown, and Arizona is generally "don't ask, don't tell".
2 - A lot of these problems were before NCLB.
3 - When locals have control of a situation, it's hard to breakup.

[roguevalley]

86. you should add utah sticking their head in the sand because as a

majority mormon state, they don't want the icky past to be brought up and embarrass everyone. Most utah mormons have polygamy in their family tree and by ignoring this, this came out anyway. Given how they don't do anything about it even though what? 40,000 polygamists that are known live in Utah as an estimate, they deserve any enmity they get over not helping these women and children.

[pnwmom]

102. That sums it up very well. n/t

[roguevalley]

84. utah routinely ignores this and when people don't care and the sect

doesn't mingle, it is overlooked because no one wants to deal.

[kestrel91316]

94. Good question. But if that makes it harder for parents to get

their children back, they have no one to blame but themselves.

[JeanGrey]

124. DNA is exact. Inbreeding doesn't matter.

[pnwmom]

32. The parents brought this on themselves

by refusing to identify themselves and their children and/or by lying about their names.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

34. The parents in many cases are just kids themselves

or vulnerable adults with the same maturity and mentality as children. They're doing what they were raised to do. It's wrong, it's disgusting, but please have some compassion because they don't know any better.

[pnwmom]

40. The fact remains

that the need for DNA identification arose from the actions of the parents. It's not an unreasonable or unfair decision by the judge.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

41. On that point, we agree

I just hope DNA works in this case.

[pnwmom]

43. Me, too. I understand that it could be very difficult

because of all the intermarriages.

[kestrel91316]

98. If any doubt remains as to parentage, that's probably where

they will start asking for input from the parents and outside family members who are cooperating. From the article it appears that there are a number of women willing to leave the group.

[pnwmom]

103. I read that dozens of children were taken from their parents this summer

on the orders of Warren Jeffs, and sent to the compound in Texas, where they were assigned new families.

This has added the the difficulties the state has in determining who belongs to who.

IMHO, any parent who would allow their children to be taken from them and sent to Texas doesn't deserve to get them back.

[roguevalley]

88. someone was discussing how the lifestyle is stunting the brains of

the children so that they might permanently be six year olds. Given the women's behavior, I would say this is so. Don't blame the women. They are so abused they don't get it.

[kestrel91316]

97. Amen (!!)

[kestrel91316]

77. They've got kids from all the other FLDS groups in North America

in that mix. They also need to be kept safe and their parentage determined as part of the deal.

These FLDS parents have lied extensively to impede the investigation. The authorities can't just accept their word on who is their child and who isn't. They'd be derelict.

[fed_up_mother]

91. This is not a criminal proceeding - I don't think they will have to submit

They just won't get their kids back if they don't.

At least that's my understanding.

[RKOwens]

22. Why couldn't they be like the Amish?

If it weren't for the underage marriage/rape, there'd be no issue with the sect at all. A friend of Warren Jeffs was on CNN talking about how Warren's father warned them not to marry underage, but when he died, Warren began doing it anyway. These people brought this on themselves. Why couldn't they be like the Amish? No one cares about how weird or old-fashioned a religion is.

All I have to say. Just my two cents.

[LisaL]

24. Amish do not practice polygamy.

[kestrel91316]

99. Nonetheless, what consenting adults do with each other in private, as long

as no one else's rights are violated, is really not something most of us give a damn about. Polygamy may be odd, but if it doesn't result in child abuse or welfare fraud or child abandonment it doesn't necessarily constitute a problem for society.

The FLDS use polygamy and their religion as cover for multiple serious crimes.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

26. Polygamy = gender imbalance

That's why. When you have five or six wives competing for their husband's attention, females are taught to be sex objects and nothing more. And what do you do with all the left-over boys?

[KitSileya]

62. Yeah, I read that the women are taught that the birth ratio is 2 to 1.

That there are 2 girls born for every boy. Considering their inbreeding, I'm sure a larger percentage than normal of boy fetuses are miscarried because they don't have the protection of the second x cromosome, but not to the degree that would change the ratio from 105:100 to 1:2. And I seriously doubt the mothers are so devoutly vegetarian that that would change the ratio further (in vegetarian societies, the birth ratio favors girls, according to research.)

But they worship Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and their teachings, and the women are taught that they will be destroyed as Smith threatened his first wife would be if they don't accept 'the Covenant'. Hellfire and damnation are strong incentives, that's been known for thousands of years, and when you're taught you can only gain salvation if your husband has at least three wives, that's what you accept. Never mind the cost on your children.

[harmonicon]

71. there would still be plenty of problems with this sect

for things like.... oh... maybe god commanding the slaughter of all dogs in a town, with the bodies being dumped out in the desert. A god-like church figure forbidding his followers to wear the colour red. Magic underwear that people are made to wear, even though they live in the desert. Man.... the list goes on.

[Sheltiemama]

108. They killed all the dogs?

OK, it just got even worse for me.

[harmonicon]

113. yep, in Colorado city

I don't think it was Warren Jeffs, but his father, or the guy who had preceded him, than commanded it.

[dipsydoodle]

69. BBC News is much more explicit

The ruling comes after officials said some of the girls may have had babies when they were just 13 years old.

The closed community was first raided amid reports that a 16-year-old girl was physically and sexually abused.

Detectives are looking for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.

She is reported to have been beaten and raped by her older husband and to be pregnant again eight months after giving birth to her first child when she was 15.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7355779.stm

[roguevalley]

89. it is said their is a sixteen year old girl who has FOUR KIDS.

[kestrel91316]

100. Well, to be fair, I heard the poor thing was only pregnant with #4.

But none were multiples.

[KansDem]

73. When religions fail, the state needs to step in to protect its citizens...

Perhaps it's time for "Enlightenment-based charities?"

[kestrel91316]

74. GOOD.

[fascisthunter]

101. 416 Kids Who are Going to Need Lots of Therapy

compassion. I feel bad for them. I hope they aren't damaged beyond "repair".

[FormerOstrich]

115. Out of curiousity....

What percentage of the 416 are males?

[Fractured]

116. State custody for a very, very long time.

It’s going to take forever to sort this out!