Wrong turn puts illegal immigrant family on tragic path in U.S.

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: Canadian Press

KEESEVILLE, N.Y. - A simple wrong turn led to the destruction of Elvia Salgado Martinez' family.

It was about 2 a.m. when she and her husband, Santiago Tapia, left the motel on Route 9 in Keeseville, nestled between the Adirondack Mountains and Lake Champlain, to look for a hospital. The 24-year-old Mexican immigrant was 5 1/2 months pregnant and the pains had been getting worse for a day. She started to bleed.
But rather than heading north for the hospital in Plattsburgh, Tapia got on the interstate headed south, toward Albany. Three exits later, realizing the mistake, they turned around.
That was when they saw a New York State Police cruiser in their rearview mirror, its lights flashing. And that was when their lives quickly became unravelled.

"My husband speaks a little English. He explained to them that I was pregnant. He told them in English he was going above the limit at 78 because I felt bad and it was urgent that we get to the hospital," Salgado told an Associated Press reporter in Spanish during an interview, 12 days after the March 31 stop. "He said that in English and the policeman understood perfectly, but he (the policeman) said, 'No, it was nothing but a lie.' "



Read more: http://www.brandonsun.com/story.php?story_id=100608

[midnight]

1. Why is this pattern of abusive law inforcement not being

investigated. What is it that our police acadamies need to aquire. If anyone of us were in a situation that ended in a pregnant women's unborn child dying,we might be in a jail cell. Well I don't know, but where is the outrage from the pro-life folks?

[AlphaCentauri]

3. see this case about police brutality

WHITE PLAINS - The trial of a former Mount Kisco police officer accused of killing homeless immigrant Rene Javier Perez will start next month.

Pretrial hearings for George Bubaris of South Salem, 31, will begin May 19, followed by jury selection and the trial itself, state Supreme Court Justice Richard Molea said yesterday.

Bubaris, who appeared in court yesterday with his lawyer, Andrew Quinn, was one of three police officers to respond to Perez's drunken 911 call from a downtown laundry on April 28. Less than an hour later, the 42-year-old Guatemalan man was found mortally injured on a country road in Bedford.
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080425/NEWS02/804250365

[JeanGrey]

2. I wonder who paid for the hospital bills.

[High Plains]

5. Yeah, that's the real issue here, right?

How fucking petty can you get?

[JeanGrey]

7. I am not being petty. I hate they lost their child. But they

shouldn't BE here.

[jeff30997]

13. I'm pretty sure that for Native Americans...

You and I shouldn't BE here either.

[JeanGrey]

26. Bringing up that old chestnut does nothing.

[dysfunctional press]

88. too bad- we WON the right to be here.

the native americans were CONQUERED, just as many civilizations have been throughout history and the world.
when another culture conquers us, THEY'll get to set the rules as to who should or shouldn't be here.

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. That goes for the Iraqi people too, right?

:shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

110. unfortunately, yes.

and we may very well end up being there until they do rise up and kick us out.

[Chovexani]

150. Don't you love the casual racism that infests this board now?

I wonder how much different the reactions would be if this was a white European couple who'd overstayed student visas (thus also making them "illegals").

[NYVet]

219. Send their asses home as well.

If you didn't sign the guestbook when coming in, or you "forget" to sign out, when we catch you, goodbye.

[Sequoia]

145. Conquered? No, there were murdered.

I love the story of Little Big Horn when the Lakota whiped out the 7th Calvary just in time for the 4 th of July centinella celebration.

[KSinTX]

213. That makes it right HOW?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. And you shouldn't be here either

not on a progressive discussion board. It is your attitude that is the problem. I can't for the life of me imagine how full of hate you must be to express these thoughts about HUMAN BEINGS.

[JeanGrey]

27. Look, I do not support illegal immigrants. I am pretty sure I'm

not the only democrat who feels that way. If that makes me not progressive, sorry.

[Lasher]

31. No, you are certainly not the only one.

But there are those who want to highjack the Democratic agenda to support those who come to the US without permission.

[notesdev]

37. Agreed

Support for illegals is necessarily action against US workers. The Democratic party traditionally stands for the interests of US workers, NOT for the interests of foreigners. If I wanted my government to sell out my countrymen to foreign interests, I'd vote Republican.

[depakid]

38. I hope the three of you never travel abroad

because you embarrass those of us who do....

(shame would actually be a better word).

[Lasher]

39. You embarrass yourself.

Every time I have traveled abroad I have done so legally. You don't seem to be able to understand the distinction between entering a country with permission, and going there illegally.

[depakid]

43. That wasn't the issue in the OP

and while your self righteousness may be sincere, it would be poetic justice if you were to find your self or you SO injured abroad- unable (like MOST Americans, to speak another language) and yet treated with respect and given proper care....

Which, despite people's general disdain and annoyance with Americans- is how it would be in most Western nations.

[Lasher]

46. I didn't respond to the OP, I responded to you.

As I said, there is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. Yet you ignore the point and continue to obfuscate, hoping to blur the distinction.

If I end up being badly injured in another country as you seem to wish, I would hope to be treated with respect and given proper medical care because I would be there legally. I would expect to pay for that medical care if that were the convention in that country. If I were there without permission, I would probably consider myself at least partially to blame for the consequences.

Ironically, if you bothered to read the article linked in the OP, you might have noticed that although the woman came to the US illegally she has permission to stay until a hearing in March. And so she should have been treated the same as any other authorized alien resident. Her husband, who illegally entered the US four months after having been deported, should have been incarcerated.

[AlphaCentauri]

47. illegal Americans living abroad do for the same reason others came to this country

illegal immigrants try to make a better living moving from one country to another like those US youths who joint the military because they can't afford college, many of those recruits are now living illegally abroad occupying another country against their will.
Those illegal Americans are drive by lack of opportunities to pursuit their dreams of a college education. Many immigrants haters don't act to open the doors of those colleges to the poor, those fox seat down contemplating the status quo forcing american youths to become illegals in other countries while them at home leave with all the commodities.

[Lasher]

109. Latinos have a right to expect open US borders because some Americans join the military?

I agree that you could fairly argue that the US occupation of Iraq is illegal. But when you infer that this somehow justifies flooding the US with every single alien who wants to enter, that is quite a stretch.

Sorry I took so long in responding. I had to read your post several times before I could figure out what you were saying. You must have had a couple of typos slip in.

[notesdev]

40. Seems you're already ashamed

I actually don't travel abroad too often; since I'm an American and live in America and live my life here, America is what is important to me. What people in other countries think of that is singularly unimportant to me.

The only thing shameful here is that you have so little affinity for your fellow Americans that even the thought of us actually standing up for our own rights and for what is rightfully ours (e.g. the use of our own money, the right to work for a fair wage in our own country) is embarrassing to you.

Maybe you ought to consider that your foreign "friends" are only your friends so far as there is money coming out of your pocket and going into theirs. Let's see their true faces when there's no more profit in preying on the foolishness of Americans like yourself. I have a feeling that those faces aren't nearly as friendly as you would pretend they would be.

[depakid]

41. Ashamed of the likes of the three above- for certain

and ashamed of what America has become- doubly certain, and thankful that as a Northwesterner, my accent is usually mistaken for Canadian.

Not sure whether you realize it or not (or would have the insight to see it, if it were right in front of you) but Americans aren't well thought of abroad, largely because of attitudes like the ones expressed above.

As your economy collapses, I hope you understand that people in other countries will have about as much sympathy for you as you've shown for them.

[notesdev]

42. The way you talk

It sounds like you're not an American after all: "your economy", "sympathy for you"

Our economic problems are largely caused by people with your shortsighted attitude. Yes, let's let in tens of millions of illegal aliens to drive down the wages of Americans into slave-labor territory and to drain our treasury, what a brilliant idea.

Let me make this perfectly clear: I am not willing to sell out my fellow American based on what people who are not Americans think of us. The fact that you are is pathetic and borders on the treasonous.

[depakid]

44. Born and raised here- just like you

Yet not an ugly American- and not one who plans to live in the states the rest of his life- precisely BECAUSE of shallow, ill informed and xenophobic attitudes like the ones expressed in the above post.

btw: the words in your post make one doubt you've ever taken an econ class or would understand the basic concepts if one were to spoonfeed them....

[notesdev]

45. Ah, I get it

Your plan is to tell everyone here what to do, then hightail it to a foreign sanctuary before the shit hits the fan here, sticking those of us who plan to stay in our own country with the bill. Is your last name Bush, by any chance?

[LanternWaste]

211. Well, I suppose there are people

"America is what is important to me. What people in other countries think of that is singularly unimportant to me."

Well, I suppose there are people who place more value on imaginary red and blue lines than they do on humanity itself.


(For someone who doesn't travel abroad too often, you certainly seem advertise a most absolute (and self-defined) grasp on the mind set of those born on the "other" side of the red and blue lines on your map...)

[TeeYiYi]

53. This story reminds me . . .

. . . of a trip to Mexico that my family made together after my sister was diagnosed with brain cancer. Long story short, she and I got violently ill from something we ate or drank. Because of her compromised immune system, it almost killed her. We tried like hell to get her into the local hospital but they wouldn't allow it because she was American. They absolutely refused to give her medical care. Refused to let us bring her to the hospital. The hotel we were staying at contacted the American Embassy to make arrangements for transporting the body out of the country, once she had died. She didn't die, not then, but it was close.

I've travelled extensively throughout Mexico, Central America, South America and Europe. As much as I disagree with how this family was treated in this country, in fact I abhor it, don't be so sure about how you'll be treated in another country in the same situation.

Just sayin'.

TYY :shrug:

[AlphaCentauri]

57. did you go to a private hospital? with 270 dollars p/y you can get treatment for cancer in Mexico

http://www.maztravel.com/maz/retire.html

say this with no hesitation - the medical care I have received here in Mazatlan is ten times better than the care I have received in the USA. Why? Because there is no "factory" mentality here, and the lawyers haven't made the doctors paranoid yet. My doctor, who graduated from Creighton University Medical School in the USA, speaks perfect English and makes house calls. He is also a first rate surgeon.
A few years ago, Nadine had to have a mass removed from here right breast. We flew to the United States to have the surgery performed. Last year, she again had to have a lump removed and we had our doctor here in Mazatlan perform the same operation. The difference was night and day. In Mazatlan, her incision was smaller, her recovery time faster, and the doctors here were not afraid to prescribe medication for pain, which the doctors in the USA will only do if you are screaming and threatening bodily harm. In the states, we saw the doctor a week later at his office and he had his nurse remove the stitches. Here the doctor came to our house at least twice before removing the stitches just to see how Nadine was feeling and if there was anything he could do for her.

Let me tell you, unless I required something extremely high tech, I would prefer traveling to Mazatlan from the US for my medical care rather than the other way around. Furthermore, in 1995 a brand new hospital with all of the latest diagnostic and surgical equipment has opened here in Mazatlan. Everything they have is state of the art. Another thing, the prices here are as you would expect, much cheaper than in the US. If you are here as a tourist, chances are your current medical insurance will cover you if you incur any medical expenses while you are here visiting. That was the case with us when we still had Blue Cross of California. Since we are now out of the country for more than six months at a time, we switched insurance companies to one that handles international insurance. You can also buy coverage that is specific to Sharp hospital. It is available a the Presalud office which is right next door to the hospital. The Presalud plan covers 100% of your hospital stay at Sharp, as well as the doctors and surgeons fees, and whatever drugs you require during your stay. It also entitles you to a 70% discount on all lab tests done at Sharp even if they are for routine care. The price is based on age, but is quite reasonable. Also the price of drugs here is astonishingly less than in the USA. It is not uncommon for a drug to be ten times cheaper here than in the states. It makes you realize just how large the drug company profits are when you can buy the same thing here for ten cents on the dollar, and that was true even before the devaluation. As far as medical care goes, I'll take Mazatlan over Kaiser/HMOs/ER any day. Nadine says that unfortunately none of the doctors here look like George Clooney though. If you are still worried about your treatment by Mexican doctors, check out this article which I clipped from the San Francisco Examiner.

As an illustration of drug prices, I asked my friend Linda at Pharmacy Belmar to put together a table of the ten most common drugs that she sells. Here is the info, as of winter 2000. While the prices in pesos may vary with time, the price should remain relatively constant in terms of dollars:

[TeeYiYi]

60. It was the hospital . . .

. . . closest to our hotel. There was a sign on the door that said, "No Tourists Will Be Treated at This Hospital" and they weren't kidding. Our hotel finally managed to find a doctor that would come to the hotel for an office visit. A minimum of 8 hours elapsed before my sister finally received medical attention. She was literally on her death bed as the hotel made arrangements to transport 'the body' back to the United States.

I'm just relating my experience in response to the OP. Your mileage may vary. I'm happy that you and your wife have had excellent treatment in Mexico. Maybe it's because you're technically locals and not tourists. Maybe it's because your situation was not an emergency. I don't know. What I do know it that the emergency room at a hospital near our hotel in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico was off limits to my sister at a critical time in her life, and she almost died as a result.

This post is not meant to disparage Mexico. I love the country and have travelled extensively throughout. Luckily, I've never required emergency medical services while in Mexico. My sister did. She wasn't so lucky.

TYY

[JeanGrey]

64. Everything is just so wonderful in Mexico that is why we have such

an illegal problem, no?

[AlphaCentauri]

82. for foreigner Mexico is a paradise but not for Mexicans

there is no such a thing like americans been kidnapped or assaulted, americans hold good jobs. Even for the 1.5 million who reside illegally in the country they can have great opportunities leaving in exclusive gated communities. While 50% of the Mexican population leave and die in extreme poverty.

[JeanGrey]

87. I wouldn't expect Mexico or ANY country to treat me like a

citizen if I were there as an illegal breaking their laws.

[Pithlet]

155. They are human beings.

For God's sake. No, we don't have to treat them like citizens. But we do have to treat them like human beings. Defending what those cops did because they're illegal is inhumane. The first thought being "Who pays the bills" after reading that shocking story is inhumane. They are human beings.

[Lasher]

186. That's not inhumane.

Nobody said to deny her medical care.

"Who pays the bills" is a reasonable question, particularly when many US citizens in the same scenario would not have been given free medical care. If we can afford to provide free medical care I want citizens and legal permanent residents to get it first. Everybody else too, if we have enough money left over for them.

[Pithlet]

197. It is inhumane.

It is not a reasonable question in this thread, right off the bat. No more so than say, if there were a post about an executive who's company mines coal by cutting off the tops of mountains. Now, I think mountain top coal mining is one of the most abhorrent things there is (I bring this up because I just read an article about this practice). Now, let's say the executive just lost a child to cancer. How fast do you think I'd be cut down if the first thing out of my mouth was " Who cares that their kid died. What about the mountain tops!" Would you understand the people telling me that I'm just a little bit cold and uncaring about not caring about the dead kid? Wouldn't you agree that that would be an inappropriate time for me to bring up my outrage over the mining?

There is a time and a place for every ting, and words and actions matter. Don't go into a thread about such a horrific thing, and spout off about your cause, and expect people not to react with just a little negativity. Yes, I do think it's inhumane, or certainly un-compassionate in the extreme, to come right into this thread and vent about immigration. Nothing wrong with asking people to have a little humanity. It goes a long way, especially considering we're a progressive board.

ETA that yes, asking about the bills being paid does strongly imply that we shouldn't treat illegal immigrants in emergency situations. If it's something that should be done regardless of who the person is, then why bring up the bills? They have to be paid, were going to pay them, because we're a humane society (The illegal immigrants will pay, too. They pay taxes also). Asking that question, especially right off the bat, implies some ugly things, so I don't blame anyone for their response to it.

[AlphaCentauri]

216. US admits medical negligence in immigrant's cancer death

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The federal government has acknowledged it was negligent in the death of an immigrant whose cancer went undiagnosed for nearly a year while he was in custody.

The family of 36-year-old Francisco Castaneda filed a lawsuit after he was denied a biopsy while in custody and died of cancer.

"We concluded there were some issues related to Mr. Castaneda's detention and that led to our admission last week," U.S. attorney's spokesman Thom Mrozek said. The claim carries maximum damages of $250,000, he said.

"The United States' admission of liability is a recognition that they have no defense to the plaintiffs' claim for medical negligence and wrongful death," said Conal Doyle, an Oakland attorney representing Castaneda's family.

Doyle said he intends to ask the court to declare unconstitutional the policy under which Castaneda was denied care.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gwOiptQSKXFaf6_CB2BF1SgcwFRAD90CKQL80

[proud2BlibKansan]

165. Would you expect them to treat you like a human being?

Or do you believe some humans are more worthy than others?

[Lasher]

187. Have you stopped abusing your children yet?

[msanthrope]

117. I was two weeks in hospital in Scotland.....free. Went there

for Christmas and New Years. New Years Day I was violently ill and shaking. Although the hospital was full-up with assorted New Years drunks and accidents, I was treated well and appropriately....

I had flu, followed by pneumonia. I spent two weeks in a hospital ward, very slowly recovering. The care was personal and excellent.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

78. That is very silly

You believe that people who do not support out of control illegal immigration in their OWN country cannot be respectful of the people in whose countries they travel? Make no sense at all.

[JeanGrey]

63. Thank you! Not to mention how letting employers get away

with the bs they dish out paying these people subpar with no benefits and that hurts ALL OF US.

[pegleg]

112. COMPLETELY AGREE. The dems have turned against american workers

to a degree. And i do think RECENT illegal aliens need to be deported immediately. But there is also a higher power that demands that all human beings be treated HUMANELY when they are in need. We do no less for needy cats and dogs.

[treestar]

127. No, it is not

The job market is not either/or in nature.

[JeanGrey]

62. It would seem so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I support human beings

Not one of us is more deserving than any of the rest of us.

[nodehopper]

58. maybe if US (and the IMF) stopped abusing the poor in Latin America with

NAFTA and CAFTA, fewer would come here for what seems like a marginally preferable existence.

[JeanGrey]

65. Bingo.

[gtar100]

141. You say 'bingo', but you denegrate the victims of these corporate actions

Honestly, have you met an illegal immigrant and held back your air of indignation to have a real conversation? I don't know one immigrant who came here because they really wanted to. Most people come here to escape poverty and exploitation. You want to be indignant, get mad at the people who sell our jobs, ship them out, and spend their days figuring out how to screw us with a smile. You want to get angry at people who had the courage to try to make a difference in their lives despite so many odds against them, and the constant danger of it all falling apart in an instant because of some self-righteous jerk who labels people "legal" and "illegal". I don't get it. You're blaming the wrong people. Your attitude shared by so many others leads to immigration raids that shatter families, walls in the desert, and inflames the passions of racism. It's just sick and inhumane.

I suggest you get to know these people on a personal level so you can feel the effects of this hateful attitude and maybe realize its folly. And by the way, it doesn't go unnoticed in the Latino communities. These people know exactly where they are and what white America is about.

[Chovexani]

151. You win the thread.

When I see this level of hatred and paranoia I have to wonder where it comes from. It's certainly not liberal.

And I wonder how many of these bigots go to church every Sunday to praise a man who spoke extensively about how one should treat "the least of these".

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. Thank you, thank you, thank you

What an excellent response. And dead on correct, at least according to my experiences with immigrants in my community.

[JeanGrey]

218. Just catching up on on this. No I do not know any "illegals" personally,

but I do know LEGAL families who came here the right way. One of them lives across the street from me, and funny, they are just as upset at illegals. Imagine that.

[AlphaCentauri]

221. How do you know their are "LEGAL"?

[pegleg]

113. In total agreement here nt

[KamaAina]

69. Had the baby been born alive, s/he would have been a U.S. citizen

so there. :P

[Lasher]

96. Actually he was born alive.

He was 15 1/2-weeks premature, and weighed just 27 ounces. He lived for 2 1/2 days. Six months before this pregnancy she'd had a miscarriage.

[treestar]

126. The point of the story was to show some of the sufferings of the

poor, pretty much, and so to bring up the immigration status as if that means they deserve it all, that seems pretty harsh and nonprogressive, too.

[a la izquierda]

21. wow. just, wow. n/t

[EFerrari]

24. I'm sure the Cherokee people feel the same way about you. n/t

[AP]

32. If you were someplace you weren't supposed to be, you'd be OK with this treatment?

[Popol Vuh]

74. WTF?

YOU! Are the one who shouldn't be here! THEY! have been here for thousands of years. YOU are the one who illegally immigrated here getting your back wet on the Mayflower.

Freakin racists.... n/t

[NYVet]

220. I have Mohawk blood in my veins.

And I do not like the fact that people cross our borders without signing in, then expect us to put up with it.


Am I a racist too?

[treestar]

124. But there WERE here

Just points up how stupid it is not to give them visas. The guy was deported, and then came back again four months later.

All that trouble to deport him when all we have to do is change the law to give them visas and they can just come and go legitimately. The job market would then reflect its true needs.

[Sequoia]

147. Seems to me they were here long before white people.

Maybe you shouldn't BE here.

[DS1]

179. Georgia.

Figures.

[jeff30997]

6. What kind of attitude is this ?

I'm surprise to see that kind of obvious xenophobia and racism on a progressive board.Yeah she should have bleed to death on the sidewalk.After all it doesn't matter,she's an horrible "illegal alien" so one more or one less who cares?

[JeanGrey]

8. I think that pretty much answers my question.

When we get NHC, will you give up less care so illegals can have it?

[jeff30997]

11. Obviously you haven't noticed my avatar or doesn't know what it means.

Over here in CANADA we have universal health care.We also have "illegals",like you say and in case of emergency they go to the hospital.We pay their bills with our taxes but we don't get less care because of that.

[JeanGrey]

28. Over there in CANADA you have about fifty million people,

right? Over here in the US we have about 300 million, and we aren't going to get National Health Care.

[Lasher]

34. Do you know what the unauthorized resident population in Canada is?

I believe in the US it is somewhere between 12 and 20 million but I don't know what the approximate number is in Canada.

[jeff30997]

77. About 120,000 for a population of 33 million peoples (July 2007 est.)

8.7 million in the US for a population of 301 million peoples(July 2007 est.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Demography.

We have less illegal immigrants per capita than the US (Around 1.2 million peoples.)

But we could support more because of high taxes and very low military and law enforcement budget

among other things.(But that crackpot Harper want to change that for absolutely no logical reason.)

I truly believe that the higher taxes are worth it because in return we have a lot of

services.For example,if I was living in the US it would cost me around 1000$ a month

for medications.I pay 0.00 $(but I have to say that I'm on welfare because of my health

problems).Last year I had to call an ambulance.Cost: 0$.No doctors or hospital bills.

It's not the best system in the world but it's not the worst either. :)

[Lasher]

95. OK thanks for the information

I didn't know what the unauthorized resident population was in Canada. But the number in the US is at least 12 million like I said. You cited 8.7 million in the US but the Wiki article you linked says that was the total in the year 2000, and that the number has grown about 500,000 each year since then. This would make the US total 12.7 million today. Here is another source that confirms the number I cited:

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf

That study estimated 11.6 million in 2006, so by now the number would be about 12.6 million according to it, if the growth of 500,000 per year is an accurate projection.

So going by these statistics, Canada has about 1 unauthorized resident per 275 people, and 1 in 24 US residents are here illegally.

I'm sorry you have health problems but it's good that you live in Canada where you can benefit from universal health care.

[treestar]

129. Am I just uninformed, or do the Canadians not seem to have so many

citizens pitching a fit over the presence of illegal immigrants in Canada as we have with Lou Dobbs and the rest here in the U.S.

Canada's immigration law is more sensible than the U.S. IMO that explains why there are fewer illegal immigrants per person.

[Lasher]

142. Canada has about 1 illegal per 275 people, and 1 in 24 US residents are unauthorized

I pointed this out just upthread. Policies vary by province, but to qualify for Canada's universal health care you have to be a citizen or legal permanent resident. And they do not have an open border policy.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lasher]

35. Now play nice.

You have a right to your opinion but so does JeanGrey and you shouldn't resort to name calling.

[JeanGrey]

73. Don't worry I missed it. :-) I know I get flamed when I put my

opinion out there on this subject but I don't care.

[Popol Vuh]

75. Ignorance knows no bounds with you huh?

n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. Neither does hatred

[dionysus]

143. you're a rotten individual.

you make me sick... :puke:

[JeanGrey]

152. Hope you'll have a job and healthcare to pay for it

when you get sick.

[dionysus]

204. of course i do, why wouldn't i? if i didn't should that mean i should die in your opinion?

[JeanGrey]

217. Of course you do? How nice for you. Too bad the rest of the

country can't always say the same.

[JeanGrey]

66. And a lot of us are sick to death of being called racists because

we don't support illegals.

[Sequoia]

148. Don't drink our wine, don't go to hotels, and don't eat out.

Because an "illegal" will be serving you and will have picked the grapes.

[JeanGrey]

153. I try not to. It needs to be stopped for the good of everyone.

Employers have got to stop fostering illegals, they are being exploited and the entire job market wages and benefits are driven downward. Once controls are made on illegals entering the country employers must be watched carefully that they do not break the rules, and those that truly want a way of life here can do so legally and not outside the law.

[DogPoundPup]

9. It's REALLY beneficial to read the articles before posting.....n/t

[Kali]

14. who cares?

why should immigration status matter whether you help someone with a few tax dollars? do you feel the same way about poor citizens too?

[JeanGrey]

67. Why? Because we need to help OUR OWN CITIZENS that

are starving and have no insurance before we can take on the rest. A lot of our own elderly get piss poor care and all I hear about is how we should be paying for illegals. Sorry.

[Popol Vuh]

76. Ok then

Take your fucking poverty creating, wealth robbing so-called multinational corporations the fuck out of Latin America and mind your own fucking business instead of budding your nose and robbing wealth from other countries and then crying when some of the people who you've displaced are forced to look for work where the wealth from their countries is being siphoned off to. THEN, while you're at it, go back to your own land.

Until then, you're just an ignorant racist squatting on Native land who doesn't know what he's talking about.

[JeanGrey]

86. Fine. I despise corporations. Did you really think differently?

Geesh. Go away. I am not a racist and I really don't give a crap if you think so.

[TCJ70]

128. Were you even going to ask...

...how the poster thought about those issues? Did it even cross your mind that they felt the same as you?

[mbperrin]

15. Actually, SHE is. From the story:

She went back to work before the doctor told her she could; her employer has treated her well and paid for her room while she was out, but she's got to make money - she has no insurance, and is starting to get medical bills for thousands of dollars. Groups that help immigrant farm workers in New York are taking an interest in her case and her employer has put her in touch with a lawyer in Plattsburgh.

[JeanGrey]

29. Then her employer should be stopped and FINED.

They are illegal, period. The only way we are ever going to get a handle on immigration and stop this flood of cheap labor is punish the people who hire illegals, who don't pay them WELL and who WON'T GIVE THEM INSURANCE.

[AlphaCentauri]

48. Why the employer has to be fined if she has a permit?

[JeanGrey]

71. Now she has a permit? Where was that in the article?

I read "illegal".

[AlphaCentauri]

83. from the article

"Salgado came away with paperwork that lets her remain in the United States as long as she makes court appearances in Boston. She has permission to stay through next March, officials say."

[JeanGrey]

84. She came away with. I wonder if she had papers before,

and her husband has been deported twice, correct?

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. Again. From the article:

They were living with a group of immigrants when one bought a car he didn't know how to drive and hit a tree. Salgado said the police came with dogs, kicked in their door and searched everything.

"They treated us like delinquents," she said.

The next day, Border Patrol agents from northern Vermont came and picked them up.

Salgado said she didn't know why authorities let her go and not the others. In some low-risk cases, the Border Patrol will release immigrants while their cases are processed, said Bradley Curtis, a Border Patrol supervisor for northeastern New York and Vermont. "Everything is decided case by case."

Salgado came away with paperwork that lets her remain in the United States as long as she makes court appearances in Boston. She has permission to stay through next March, officials say.

It helps to READ. All of this happened BEFORE her miscarriage.

[JeanGrey]

174. They were living with a group of immigrants when one

bought a car he didn't know how to drive and hit a tree. Luckily he didn't hit someone else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. Actually you thought "illegal"

You bias comes through loudly and clearly with every post in this thread.

[JeanGrey]

175. Yes, I do have a bias against illegals. Don't have a problem

with it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

201. Check this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3227446&mesg_id=3227446

[JeanGrey]

210. Thank you for the link. But actually, whatever "right wingers"

want has no basis on my own preferences. And it was a good article, especially this line:

voter registration form and told them that was the one expectation she had when they became U.S. citizens

[kath]

59. Companies that hire illegal workers should be HEAVILY fined - I'd start at at least $10K or $20 K

PER WORKER.

Make the fuckers pay a living wage dammit (and even the current minimum wage is NOT a living wage)

[JeanGrey]

72. Thank you, thank you!!!! And if they refuse we need to take their

business FROM THEM. No more money in their pockets paying cheap labor.

[JeanGrey]

68. HER EMPLOYER NEEDS TO BE FINED and STOPPED

from hiring illegals!! You don't get it, do you?

[sandnsea]

16. Low income workers use medicaid

So whether they were citizens or not, the consequences of low income employment is the same. We pay because we won't demand business pay for their own labor costs.

[JeanGrey]

30. EXACTLY which needs TO STOP.

[AlphaCentauri]

49. so low income employees should not have any way to deal with their medical necessities?

[JeanGrey]

61. I said nothing about "low income employees". I am talking

about illegals.

[dysfunctional press]

89. the post you responded to was about low-income workers...

so yes, you DID say something about low-income workers.

[JeanGrey]

176. Nope. Unless you believe that ALL low income employees

are illegals, and if you do, maybe you should ask yourself how so many illegals are "low income" and how that needs to change for everyone's well being.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. You would deny health care to human beings

Wow. Just. Wow.

[JeanGrey]

70. You can "wow" all you want. Just want and see how that

wonderful illegal employer is going to react when his butt has to pay for NHC. JUST WAIT. Oh right! I forgot! He doesn't provide it now, RIGHT??

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Why should any employer have to provide health care?

We should have universal health care provided by our government.

[JeanGrey]

85. And, please inform me, the pile of cash the "government" will

have to pay for that and where it will come from. I am simply amazed at those that think employers have no ability or right to kick into the pot like everyone else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. They will kick into the pot when they pay taxes

What pile of money is paying for the illegal war on Iraq? Do you have any idea how much health care $720 million a day would buy?

Or do you support the war too? That would fit right in with your other positions against immigrants and universal health care.

[JeanGrey]

100. Of course I don't support the war. You might back off and

realize that not supporting illegals does not equal rightie. Thanks. And Yes EMPLOYERS WILL HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY of paying for health care. Since they have shirked that responsibility it will now come out of their ass.

[JeanGrey]

101. Another thing: I'm not against UHC.

If you are going to argue you should know what you're arguing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Could have fooled me

Most progressives favor UHC. You just don't appear too progressive.

[Lasher]

116. Why are you afraid to debate JeanGrey?

You are not correct to infer that someone is not a progressive if they don't share your views regarding US immigration policy. For example, you are in favor of giving drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. But 77% of Americans, including 68% of Democrats, do not agree with you.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/77_oppose_drivers_licenses_for_undocumented_immigrants

Further, your support for open borders puts you even more in the minority. 90% of Americans believe it is important or very important to improve border enforcement and reduce illegal immigration - a clear indication that no more than 10% agree with you on this point.

If you have a good argument, then make it instead of trying to paint JeanGrey with a broad brush as being less of a progressive than you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. And we all know your position on immigration too

You and I will never agree. I have posted links that refute the anti immigration talking points but you who hate the immigrants refuse to see the human side of this issue.

Yes I want them to have drivers licenses because without one they can't buy insurance. And silly me, I would rather we have insured motorists on our streets and highways. If the drivers license polls were phrased that way, I think the majority of Americans would agree with me.

This is a sad story about a couple who lost their baby. And the hatred posted here on this thread is repulsive to those of us who have hearts. Sorry but I can't fathom hating these people or thinking they got what they deserved because they weren't born here. And yes, I know the progressive platform includes taking care of people and treating them with respect because they are human beings deserving of decent health care and fair treatment.

[Lasher]

123. You have never posted anything to refute any point I have set forth.

I think this is an important topic, worthy of meaningful debate. But you inordinately empathize with the current US population of unauthorized residents, and with those still to come, because your parents came to this country illegally.

Allowing your objectivity to be totally compromised on this one issue doesn't make you a bad person. I actually agree with you on every other issue upon which I hve seen you opine. But it's dishonest of you to employ tactics like intentionally citing 'immigrants' when you know we are discussing 'illegal immigrants' or at least 'undocumented residents' if you must use a euphemism. And it's just plain wrong to characterize disagreement from me and others as hatred or a refusal to see the human side - or much worse as I have seen from others in this thread. If this is all you've got except to casually throw out the latest 'phobe' word du jour, then you probably don't have an effective argument to support your position.

The drivers' license poll question was fairly worded, but your consistent lack of objectivity on this subjest is demonstrated by your suggestion to editorialize it to corrupt the responses. You're just interested in gaining every possible advantage you can for illegal immigrants - even if it is not in the interests of your fellow Americans - and you will say anything to move in that direction.

I agree that was a sad story. But it was clearly used to beat the same old 'open borders' drum, demonizing the evil Americans who mistreated them (they didn't) because they are Latinos, and laying all accountability at our feet and none at their own - or their own government. She got medical care and so did her premature son who did not survive. The police followed the same policy they would have used for everyone else, except that they had to summon a Spainish-speaking officer to the scene.

I hate it because she is being billed for medical care, but the same thing would be happening to most US citizens and legal permanent residents. We can't save the whole world, and as a member of the Democratic party of the USA, I don't see anything wrong with putting US citizens first.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. Then you must be one of the few I haven't posted links for

Perhaps you have just criticized me, as you do in this post, and failed to make claims that support your opinions.

I make no distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants for a couple reasons:

1. They are human beings, as we are, and don't merit any label except "human".

2. Crossing the border without papers is a CIVIL offense so it is no more accurate to call these people "illegal" than it is to call someone who exceeded the speed limit, a jaywalker, or a stop sign runner "illegals".

3. It is nearly impossible to immigrate legally from any Central American country. So European immigrants are "legal" while Hispanics from south of the border are "illegal". I find those labels offensive yet unavoidable so I don't use them.

4. I work with undocumented people and their families and I treasure their presence in my community and my country. Diversity is the spice of my life.

[Lasher]

134. Well this is better than name calling but I think you could do better if you tried.

Yes I criticized you but if I may be so bold, I believe my past two contributions amounted to more than just that.

Right away I see you have contradicted yourself:

I make no distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants for a couple reasons:

1. They are human beings, as we are, and don't merit any label except "human".

3. ...I find those labels offensive yet unavoidable so I don't use them.

4. I work with undocumented people and their families...

Maybe you meant to say, 'I work with human families'. But you didn't. You used the euphemism, 'undocumented', which is pretty much the same as 'illegal'. Just as I said, you are dishonestly trying to blur the important distinction between legal and illegal immigration.

2. Crossing the border without papers is a CIVIL offense so it is no more accurate to call these people "illegal" than it is to call someone who exceeded the speed limit, a jaywalker, or a stop sign runner "illegals".

Ah yes, the familiar 'speeding = illegal immigration' nonsense. TahitiNut smacked you down pretty good almost a year ago over that one, with no attempt at rebuttal from you:

The claim that a violation of a civil (vs. criminal, or vs. martial) statute is somehow equivalent to speeding is intellectually dishonest, imho, and overtly propagandistic. Why not say the Scooter Libby hasn't done anything more serious than speeding? (Because we all realize that's horse shit.)

<snip>

The legal terminology is "illegal alien." The use of that term in no way reflects some character failing, as some love to claim. To make such a claim is hostile and rude.

Throughout history, 12-20 million people entering another nation in violation of its sovereign laws would most often be called an invasion - quite often punishable by death (shot on sight). It's testimony what respect we have for human life that we have never sanctioned such a reaction. Nonetheless, any pretense to even being a nation, and one in which we strive to assert democratic self-governance, is a JOKE if we don't enforce our borders and what it means to be a citizen who participates in our self-governance.

The rationalization that we should be a pressure relief valve that serves to sustain the colonial plantation economies and plutocracies of other nations, as well as the human traffickers in our own nation, is not only corrupt - it's inhumane, imho. The same 'interests' that've created a de facto trade in human labor in contravention of our laws has also served to prop up banana republics and other despotisms that exploit human privation and disenfranchisement. Instead of exporting democracy, we're importing plantation economics and the objectification of human beings. Instead of promulgating economic equity abroad, we're feeding economic inequity domestically and increasing the deprivations of our own citizens - the children of people who've committed and sacrificed to make our own nation a better place to live. It's a betrayal - the trashing of their sacrifices and labors. It's an abandonment of those wanting to make this nation a better place for their own children - since such a legacy is squandered by cheapening the value of human labor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1087220&mesg_id=1095587

Like I said, nary a peep from you in reply, and yet you continue to copy and paste the same tired old line.

3. It is nearly impossible to immigrate legally from any Central American country. So European immigrants are "legal" while Hispanics from south of the border are "illegal".

Nations comprising Central America are Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama. According to table 2 in a study by the Office of Policy and Planning of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, as of the year 2000 the foreign-born US authorized resident population from these countries was:

Belize: 47,000
Costa Rica: 55,000
El Salvador: 628,000
Guatemala: 337,000
Honduras: 145,000
Nicaragua: 199,000
Panama: 94,000

Total: 1,505,000

There was a total of 4.8 million from Europe.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/Ill_Report_1211.pdf

In 2007 Central America had a population of about 41 million, so there's 1 person living legally in the US for about every 27.3 people living in that region - not accounting for growth between 2000 and 2007. The current population of Europe is about 712 million, so using the same criteria there's about 1 authorized European resident in the US for every 148.3 currently living in that region.

Based on these facts, people from Central America are 5.4 times more likely to become legal residents of the US than are people from Europe. So obviously, racist Whitey is not giving favorable treatment to Europeans at the expense of Central Americans. So much for that dishonest argument.

And one more thing:

Diversity is the spice of my life.

Is it really? Or are you just highjacking a principle that's been used to promote actual equality in the US? Tell me, of all the 'human' people you work with, what percentage is Latino? And if you really believe in the principle of diversity, why don't you ever say anything about other regions such as Africa, which is almost totally unrepresented in the number of immigrants currently coming into the US each year?

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. My friend the immigration attorney

pointed out that this link you posted is to statistics from over 20 years ago. (1991 - 2000) Those numbers would not be relevant today.

I asked him to review your post and his response was "Let's be honest and use current data." He also said yes, quotas restrict Central Americans from coming here but Europeans are not restricted. In fact, your own dated data indicates we indeed allow more Europeans, three times more. The population of their home country is irrelevant. Nice spin though. LOL

[Lasher]

184. The statistics were not from 20 years ago.

The report to which I linked was published in 2000, with statistics that ranged from 1990 to 2000 (not 1991 to 2000). The numbers I cited were as of 2000 - eight years ago - and I clearly pointed that out. Maybe your goofy lawyer friend should learn to read. You and (s)he both should have realized that in using figures from 2000, I did not account for an even greater population of foreign-born US residents from Central America that has surely occurred since then.

You can try to hide from the truth by saying it is not relevant, but the fact is clear: People from Central America are much more likely to become legal residents of the US than are Europeans. Evil Whitey in the US is not keeping out the poor Central Americans to make room for his Arian brothers and sisters after all.

So I was honest by any reasonable measure and if you or Goofy have any more recent statistics from an unimpeachable source you are welcome to furnish them. Sorry I suggested before that you should get an immigration lawyer involved. As it turned out that was bad advice.

[JeanGrey]

177. Well, now, I'm really disturbed that you don't consider me

"progressive". All you know about me is that I do not support illegals. That does not make me non progressive.

[Pithlet]

178. There's a difference between not supporting illegals

and supporting their inhumane treatment.

[JeanGrey]

209. I do not support inhumane treatment.

[alarimer]

114. Some of the responses on this thread shock me.

I am so disgusted by my fellow Americans. I suppose they would prefer illegal immigrants to DIE rather than get needed (often emergency) health care. Just disgusting and not truly Democratic either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. I agree n/t

[Lasher]

185. Me too. n/t

[RadiationTherapy]

125. Please. It happens all the time.

Try getting a malignant cancer tumor in your head at age 24. See how well insured you are despite being able to work. Stop making it seem as if HUGE SWATHS of LEGAL americans are not denied health care all the time.

PS. The Lounge has declared "Wow. Just wow." as passe and very uncool. Time for something new. Oh, and "thanks for playing" is also no longer Lounge Certified.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. This isn't the lounge

And I didn't realize the lounge set rules for the other forums here.

[DBoon]

23. I would gladly support having my taxes pay for their bills

the right to emergency medical treatment is a basic human right that should not be denied on the basis of immigration status.

I am proud to treat these people humanly in the same way I would expect to be treated in any other civilized country

A country that allows human beings to die based on their immigration status is a miserable barbaric country that I hope to never live in

and BTW, if a dog were in the same situation, I would expect it to be treated as well, and not left to die. We should treat humans at least as well as dogs

[AP]

33. I agree.

[Lasher]

36. But you can't do that without having my taxes support their bills too.

The right to emergency medical treatment is a basic human right but being in another country without permission is not. And most dogs in the US did not climb border fences to get here.

If you want to pay their bills with your money and leave me out of it, write them a check.

[AlphaCentauri]

50. so who build the fences?

[Lasher]

54. Good question, and who is funding the war in Iraq?

All of us US taxpayers are. That was my point. It doesn't matter if one or two people say they don't have a problem with funding one thing or another. We're all in this together and at least in a general sense the majority rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

56. So cutting services to the immigrants would enable more resources for the war on Iraq?

even if immigrants pay 300 billions in taxes

[Lasher]

108. Cutting services on *illegal* immigrants could fund a keg party at my house.

I'm up for fair debate but that's just silly.

[Bluebear]

173. That's the first thing you thought of? Really? How awful for you.

[Scairp]

4. This is sad

And I feel bad for her, losing another baby, but they couldn't even find the hospital, and even though the cop who stopped them was less than compassionate, they called paramedics to her and got them to a hospital sooner than they would have gotten to it by themselves. This is not the worst case of abuse I have ever heard of.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. And it isn't the least bit abusive to separate her from her husband

and him from his wife and dying child. Not abusive at all.

:sarcasm:

[dysfunctional press]

91. not if they're in violation of the law.

sorry.

[AlphaCentauri]

107. This is one of the most ambiguous arguments I listen so often

let's apply the law even if its un human or if promote injustice. If other countries try to apply their laws to american citizens, we call them excessive or repressive. Looks like this argument of applying the law selectively is so common that it's has become a good argument to promote injustice.

[dysfunctional press]

111. what country would allow a criminal husband to remain in the hospital at his wife's side...?

for an indeterminate length of time?

:shrug:

[superconnected]

93. The illegals might want to consider they could get stopped by the cops

and have medical problems at the same time.

Really this is the two illegals fault. I'm sorry they lost the kid but the stupidity that killed the kid is on the parents.

Maybe they shouldn't be in the position to be stopped, arrested, and immediately deported, in the first place.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Or they could have just stayed south of the border and starved

Damn those illegals! How dare they try to leave a country with a failing economy due to NAFTA! How dare they want a better life for their families! How dare they poison our perfect life here in the USA by crossing our border!!

:sarcasm:

[RadiationTherapy]

130. Let's do away with countries altogether.

I sure as hell don't care about "america", latin, native, north, south, NONE of it. Do away with it all, have a flat tax on all transactions in the world and have some sort of ruling body dole out the infrastructure

[superconnected]

137. How about they come legally and not have to be in the position where

they get detained and their kid dies because they were breaking the law.

I know that's hard for you to understand but their kid may be alive if they chose to OBEY THE LAW.

[alarimer]

115. That's a pretty shitty attitude.

It just sucks. Obviously you have no compassion. And hopefully no one will have compassion for you. You certainly do not deserve it.

[superconnected]

139. I have plenty of compassion. I feel sorry for the kid that got killed because

they are detained criminals. I feel sorry for you for wishing bad things on others who don't agree with you. I feel sorry for the parents for being criminals and paying so highly. And I hope other illegals can learn that this can happen so it's not safe for kids if your a criminal. I know you have a problem with that. I suppose you must be a meth dealer or some other criminal to no have a problem with parental criminal behavior hurting kids. Whatever.

[High Plains]

196. Christ! And I thought JeanGray was a bit much.

You win the Ugly American award. Congratulations.

[scarface2004]

10. the cops are all trained by nazis!

kill anything that moves..have no regard for human life...except the 'unborn' but only if they are fundamentalist christian white republicans!

[WoodyM]

19. Another exhibition

of bigoted, ignorant, and stupid prejudice. As bad if not worse that anything that has been posted in this thread.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. It's amazing you could be this stupid and still type.

[EFerrari]

25. I agree. The poster gives that cop too much fucking credit. n/t

[High Plains]

55. Heh.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. Are you talking about one of the black cops or the muslim one?

[Freddie Stubbs]

146. All of them?

:shrug:

[LanternWaste]

212. I'll tell my brother in law that he has no regard for human life

I'll tell my brother in law that he has no regard for human life.

It's a surprise to me that he has no regard for human life-- and I'm sure it will be a surprise to him, but as you appear to be advertising a most absolute knowledge of law enforcement, I imagine he'll have to go shopping for a new uniform with a swastika on it to better validate your statements.


Either that... or you're still pissed about that speeding ticket :eyes:

[L0oniX]

20. Damn the pigs

:evilfrown:

[saigon68]

81. Lots of Love in this thread

Its become flame bait

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. It's sad, isn't it?

I can't even imagine how cold hearted you need to be to wish ill upon these people.

[dysfunctional press]

90. for those of you who think that the cop was 'abusive' or a 'nazi'- how was he supposed to handle it?

from reading the article, i don't see anything that the officer necessarily did wrong in the situation presented.

[Lasher]

136. That's what I thought they would say.

[dysfunctional press]

144. yep...i kinda had that feeling too.

nt

[Pithlet]

159. Called an ambulance. Duh. n/t

[Name removed]

92. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superconnected]

94. The headline is really bad, it should read Wrong choice by the parents

to come to the us illegally put them on a path for disaster.

The wrong turn anyone can make. Their problems started when they made the choice to break the law and cross the boarder and then live and work here illegally. The responsibility of suddenly being stopped by the law is on them.

Next time they may want to break a few less laws - not speeding would have been a good idea in this case because - gee, it can get you pulled over, then the rest of the laws you're breaking may get your kid killed if your in a hurry to get somewhere but you're just been stoped by the police and you have other crimes to answer to.

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. Well actually the problem started when NAFTA destroyed

their country's economy.

I also dare you NOT to speed while rushing your pregnant wife to the hospital as you fear she may be miscarrying. I remember when one of my kids fell off his bike and I thought he needed stitches; I broke speed limits the entire trip to the hospital. A miscarriage is much more serious and life threatening. I don't blame him at all for speeding and can't think of many people who love their family not doing exactly the same thing.

[superconnected]

138. Everyone would speed, but is everyone breaking other laws that

will detain them if they get caught?

Which laws were you also breaking? Oh wait, you probably didn't put yourself in the position where speeding and getting caught for more laws you broke killed your kid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. What other laws?

Crossing the border without papers is a civil offense. Just like speeding.

[Lasher]

154. Crossing the border without permission is a criminal offense.

It is not just like speeding.

[Pithlet]

157. Letting a woman bleed while her unborn child dies is NEVER acceptable.

No matter what crime they have committed. It is not justice. What that cop did so pales what they did that it isn't funny. Look, I understand the anti-immigration argument, and I even agree with some of the points. I'm more moderate on that issue than some on this board. And I absolutely cannot understand the arguments by you and others in this thread. You have forgotten that they are human beings. Your stance on immigration has become so entrenched that you and others in this thread seem to have forgotten that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

160. Thank you

I am so repulsed by these people who wish ill upon human beings or think this couple somehow deserved to lose their baby. Good grief. What kind of people are we becoming?

[Pithlet]

163. Apparently, a kind of people who will run background checks

before calling ambulances or administering other lifesaving measures. Unless, of course, you're lucky enough not to look or sound like an immigrant.

[Pithlet]

171. What really gets me about the position they are taking

is that these poor people could just as easily have been here legally. In fact, we don't even know for sure the reason the cop didn't believe them at first and refused to help is because he thought they were illegal. There was an American born English speaking woman who miscarried because the cops refused to call in help when they pulled her over for a stolen plate, after all. And, I wouldn't think they're suggesting that cops should do background checks before helping anyone who doesn't speak English, surely. So, what their position really amounts to is "They're illegal, so they deserved it."

[Lasher]

162. Read the article and show me specifically where any US official acted improperly

Maybe it is your stance on immigration that is biased. My arguments are based on facts and not personal attacks or name calling.

[Pithlet]

164. He should have called an ambulance.

He acted "improperly" when he failed to do so. Period. And I didn't attack you. I called your position unconscionable. Because it is. Do you propose background checks before cops call an ambulance? I would hope not. If a cop sees someone bleeding and in need of immediate medical attention, he is obligated to call for help. No matter who that person is, or is suspected to be. What is hard about that? My stance on immigration is irrelevant, because no matter where a person falls on the spectrum of immigration policy, it should be a no brainer.

[joeglow3]

181. Did the cop know she was bleeding?

My wife had a miscarriage 4 months into the pregnancy and the bleeding she experienced was not obvious. It is not as if it was just flowing for everyone to see. She would have to take her pants to show you. Given there was an obvious language barrier, did the cop even know she was bleeding????

[Pithlet]

193. The husband told him she was.

That's enough for me. He apparently called them liars. If that is indeed how things happened, then that cop was wrong. Illegal immigrants or no. I don't get all the hand wringing by the anti-immigration crowd in this thread. I honestly don't. Many life threatening situations aren't visibly obvious. For example, I don't think a cop has to see an EKG before he calls the ambulance for someone claiming a heart attack. Even if they're an illegal immigrant.

[joeglow3]

203. He told the cop his wife felt bad.

"My husband speaks a little English. He explained to them that I was pregnant. He told them in English he was going above the limit at 78 because I felt bad and it was urgent that we get to the hospital," Salgado told an Associated Press reporter in Spanish during an interview, 12 days after the March 31 stop. "He said that in English and the policeman understood perfectly, but he (the policeman) said, 'No, it was nothing but a lie.' "

Again, I am not excusing the cop. However, many Monday Morning Quarterbacks want to assume they knew all the facts and the entire situation.

[Pithlet]

205. He said it was urgent they get to the hospital

I'm sorry, but no Monday Morning Quarterbacking about it. If someone tells a cop they need to urgently get to the hospital, the only response is for that cop to immediately get them to the hospital. If the person is lying, that can be sorted out afterwords. The probability that she was in labor, and the man said absolutely nothing about it are highly unlikely, so I don't think people are making all that big of a stretch to conclude this cop acted inappropriately. It's not very believable if the cop is claiming they didn't tell him it was urgent. This kind of thing has happened in the past. Cops refused to believe a pregnant woman when she told them she was bleeding, and they sent her to jail where she gave birth to a stillborn child. Cops have the obligation to err on the side of caution at all times in cases where people plea for emergency assistance, and when they don't, they're going to get a hail of shit falling on their heads when someone is injured or dies as a result. I'm not making an absolute statement that the cop was wrong, just explaining the very understandable response. I personally think it's very likely this cop acted based on prejudice and these people paid the price.

Just wanted to add that I really don't have a problem with the argument that we don't know all the facts. I only came into this thread because of the illegal immigrants are bad, m-kay? posts. It just really rubbed me wrong.

[Lasher]

182. I was thinking of the overall interaction in this thread.

Overall there is plenty of that going on.

No, I don't think medical treatment should be witheld until the cops have checked for green cards all around. You are making an assumption that the police were aware of the nature of her medical condition at a point in time when they might have not.

In further reply, please see my contribution here.

But this really isn't the point I'm trying to make. Officials might have acted improperly. They have before and they will again. My problem is how this case is being used here in this thread to unfairly demonize US officials, but mostly with the immigration-related arguments that are just not valid.

[Pithlet]

192. I'm making no assumptions.

It's entirely possible that the cop did nothing wrong. I have my suspicions, mind you. Like, why does a cop who speaks the language have to be called, when the man spoke enough English to tell the cops exactly what was wrong with his wife. Not to mention the cop's response that he was a liar. It isn't a very good picture, is it? But, no. I'm honestly not making a hard and fast judgment that the cop was absolutely in the wrong. No, what I'm doing is desperately, and it seems fruitlessly, trying to explain that no matter what happened, their immigrant status at that time is utterly and completely irrelevant. I don't think I'm getting through.

By all means, make the argument that we don't have all the facts, and the cop may have done nothing wrong. I would agree with you. I will not agree with your posts about why it's so wrong that they are illegally in this country, at least not in this thread. Possibly we'd have more agreement in an actual thread about immigration. I don't know. But, I don't know why you persist in this one. You aren't going to change anyone's minds, and you risk coming off as cold and uncaring. The response to all the "Illegals are harming this country! It's against the law! They're criminals! Blah blah blah" is who cares? These people suffered horribly, no matter who is at fault. That isn't lessened by their immigrant status in anyway, so why talk about it here? Start a general thread about immigration if you really want to get it out of your system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

158. It is a civil offense, just like speeding

So they are no more illegal than you are when you run a stop sign or go over the speed limit.

Ask any immigration lawyer.

If you know any, that is. I have a couple friends. I would imagine you wouldn't want to hang out with them though. LOL

[Lasher]

166. I don't need to ask an immigration laywer.

If you are not qualified to participate in this debate, go find yourself an immigration lawyer and I will smack them down too if they claim that sneaking across the border without permission is not a criminal offense.

Entering the country illegally is considered a federal misdemeanor. Simply lacking legal immigration status is a civil violation.

"Improper entry by an alien" as it is called, is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code punishable by a fine of between $50 and $250 and/or a maximum of six months in jail.

It is considered difficult to prosecute because unless authorities catch someone in the act of crossing the border, it is easier to just deport them than spend the time and money needed to prove how they crossed the border. Even in border states, first-time offenders are rarely prosecuted because the court system would be inundated with millions of cases.

http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-113610.html

And the last time I checked, getting a speeding ticket usually doesn't result in deportation, as both illegal entry and overstaying a visa can. So you are one hundred percent wrong to infer either is just like speeding.

Now I don't suppose you have any links to reputable sources that can be used to refute any of this, do you?

[Pithlet]

167. It's irrelevant, anyway. An ambulance should have been called.

Maybe you could do your opinion justice, and explain why their immigration status couldn't have been worked out AFTER an ambulance was called and treatment rendered? After all, you do realize that there are people with legal status who don't speak English well, right? My mother in law would be an example. She actually does speak English pretty well, but I imagine if she were in dire need of medical attention she might be so upset that her English would suffer for it. Would you have her wait while cops work out whether she's here legally? If so, please explain why that would be necessary. She frequently has relatives who come to the country legally to visit her, and they don't speak English at all. God forbid they should ever require immediate treatment if we do things the way you seem to think they should be done. Let's hope a cop who speaks their language is available.

Edited to add that I'm not just picking on you. Anyone who thinks the cop was right to wait is free to answer as well.

[Lasher]

180. Truth is relevant.

FWIW, I don't feel like anyone is particularly picking on me. Frankly I'm glad you've joined the discussion.

I directly refuted the obfuscation: "Crossing the border without papers is a civil offense. Just like speeding." I proved it is in fact a Federal crime. Of course, the intent here is to deceitfully portray such an act as having little or no consequence.

And yet this patently false claim has been often repeated here at DU. Don't you think it is important the this practice to be challenged?

If Ms Salgado's account is accurate, then there was an improper delay of about 10 minutes, which is the amount of time it took the Spanish-speaking trooper to arrive at the scene after being summoned. But I saw no attempt in the article to confirm her account that "...the policeman understood perfectly..." and failed to properly act. In fact, this charge does not square with the professional way the overall support seems to have been provided. And if this relatively brief delay was in fact due to a judgment error, there is no good reason to suspect that it was a result of sinister intent.

According to Ms Salgado the first thing police did after pulling them over was to ask for their immigration papers. It is standard for law enforcement officers to first ask for your driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance when they pull you over, and we are left to wonder if either of them had such documents. Probably not. If this assumption is true, it would not have been inappropriate for them to ask for other forms of identification, particularly if the officers had not yet realized Ms Salgado needed medical attention.

But is wrong to characterize this as determining their immigration status before the ambulance had been called. Apparently the state police notified the Border Patrol they had possible illegal aliens after Ms Salgado was in being treated, and that determination was made at the hospital by a border agent.

I realize there are people with legal status who do not speak English well. As a matter of fact, Ms Salgado had legal status at the time of the event in question and will have until next March - if it it is not sooner concluded at an immigration hearing that she should be deported. And as you may have noticed, she speaks no English at all.

Whenever I am in a foreign country where I do not speak their language, I bear them no malice if everyone there cannot speak mine. I realize there might be some complications because of this, and try to account for by taking precautions such as having a bilingual friend with me. But if I were in such a country without an interpreter, and if I needed medical attention, I would hold myself mostly accountable if no one could understand me. And if they summoned an interpreter I would not condemn them for it. Actually it is a sign of benevolence for officials to have made sure such resources are available if needed.

Nobody let anyone bleed to death while immigration status was being checked and I am very hopeful that your relatives will be in very little danger of just such a plight while in the USA. But if neither you nor your companions can speak the language, don't make people out to be monsters if they summon an interpreter.

[Pithlet]

188. I never characterized it as the cop determining their legal status.

I don't know why he didn't call the ambulance right away. I wasn't there. I do think it's suspicious that the cause of delay was to get a cop who could speak the language, and that he told the couple they were lying. It seems to me that bleeding pregnant woman going into labor speaks loud and clear, no matter the language. But, my contention and the contention of others is that an ambulance should have been called immediately, and that has been countered with "But, they're illegals!" My answer is, "So what?" My sole beef is with those who claim that immigrants do not deserve equal treatment in emergency situations.

You may not be making yourself entirely clear in your arguments in this thread, but you do seem to be making the argument that the fact they're illegal is relevant in this story somehow. Yes, it's a fact that they're illegal. No, it's not relevant when determining whether or not to administer emergency care. It just isn't. Facts aren't automatically relevant to every situation. A human being needs immediate medical attention. The only facts that are relevant at that time are what kind of attention they need, and how quickly they need it. Anything else can be dealt with afterwords. The fact is the cop was remiss in not immediately calling an ambulance as soon as it was evident that help was needed. Those who say the cop was right to do what he did because they were illegal are flat out wrong, and were told so. You come in and start arguing about why they're wrong to be illegal, as if that matters to the discussion. These people were wronged, and their legal status has nothing to do with that.

[Lasher]

194. Yes you did.

Maybe you could do your opinion justice, and explain why their immigration status couldn't have been worked out AFTER an ambulance was called and treatment rendered?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3285559&mesg_id=3290340

We have only Ms Salgado's word to go on, that the cop said they were lying. There was no attempt in the story to confirm or refute her scenario. She has a motive to claim unfair treatment, and her credibility is also in question because she speaks only Spanish. How could she be relied on to accurately recount exactly what was said if she could not have understood what they were saying? Every single atrocity in this story is based on her word and paranoid extrapolation.

As one poster advised from personal experience in this thread, her condition very well might not have been obvious.

My sole beef is with those who claim that immigrants do not deserve equal treatment in emergency situations.

I couldn't agree more, in this country we have a moral obligation to provide the best emergency services we can to all in life threatening situations. Now let me qualify that: A sad fact is that sometimes the expense of a given medical procedure is not justified. Let's say I'm 90 years old and I need a liver transplant so I can exist another 2 years in misery. Well, just pull the plug on me. Or more to the point, I don't think we should be expected to furnish a $10 million brain surgery for an illegal alien, even if it were to prolong their lives, when all US citizens can not expect the same. With that caveat, sure I agree.

Now show me where one person in this thread has said immigrants do not deserve equal treatment in emergency situations.

[Pithlet]

195. I was working with the assumptions being made in this thread.

I did not expressly make a claim that the cop acted incorrectly. The whole premise of the thread is that he did. In arguing against those who claim he did right by those incorrect actions, I was arguing as if he had. In all honesty, though, the facts expressed in the article don't look good to me.

I can show you all kinds of examples of people expressing just that. I'm not going to point out those examples, because I'm obligated to a higher standard as a mod, and it wouldn't be right for me to call out other people. But they are indeed in this thread, and I've responded to some of them.

[Lasher]

200. Well I've got to give you credit for one thing.

You haven't locked the thread immediately after blasting me with a rebuttal. But I feel like this thing's about winding down now. Earlier I did an unsuccessful search for a different news story on this one, hoping to find this lady's account either confirmed or refuted. Guess I'll try again. Funny, how so many of us can read the same story and come up with such different interpretations.

Like I said before, the actual story is not the issue here. This actually is an immigration thread. The biggest problem is all the condemnation that occurs if someone dares disagree with even the most radical of pro-Latino positions. Look upthread, you've participated yourself. Democrats don't agree on every issue and I'm not going to accuse you of moral failing if you disagree with me on one or two. If you are able to extend the same courtesy, that's good but I'll live if you don't.

But I will not be censored by a chorus that tries to characterize my opposition to open borders as bigotry. It might actually do us all some good if we were to look up that term right now in the dictionary and honestly ask ourselves if it applies to us.

Time to turn the page.

Lasher

[Pithlet]

202. It's only an immigration thread because the anti crowd came in and made it so.

Right off the bat. I'm certainly not shocked they got the reaction they did. Those weren't responses by radical pro-Latino posters, but by compassionate human beings who don't care right at that instant that those poor people were illegal. My right wing Rush Limbaugh listening father would be appalled by some of the posts here, and I'm sure his response to them would have been similar. This thread may have drawn those posters you mention, but only because the anti-crowd came in and made it an issue.

My only participation in this thread is to try to point out that their status is immaterial. Nothing more. I saw some ugly, inhumane things posted, and that's what prompted me to join in. Lots of implications that they deserved it because they were illegal, for instance. "It wouldn't have happened in the first place if they weren't here" kind of thinking.

Mods work on consensus, and this isn't my forum, so I wouldn't just unilaterally decide to lock it anyway, so I'm afraid I can't take credit :)

[Lasher]

207. Well thanks for being a moderator anyway.

You folks probably don't always feel the extra effort is appreciated but it is at least by me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. Well start turning them in

and watch how ICE responds to your reports.

And once again, your post supports what I said, that you are trying to argue with. LOL

Oh you do understand the difference between midemeanor and felony, don't you? :rofl:

[Pithlet]

172. You know what else is a federal misdemeanor?

Title 4

4 U.S.C. § 3: (District of Columbia) - Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag.

Pregnant women who have done this had better not go out driving with those little tattered flags on their car, because God help them if a cop pulls them over and they go into labor and bleed while the cop is sorting out how to deal with them. I'm guessing that cop wouldn't be defended so vigorously, though.

[Lasher]

189. I'm pretty sure you had some sort of point you were trying to convey.

If so, would you please share it with me now?

[Pithlet]

191. My message to you that I'm trying to convey is that the crime is irrelevant.

Your arguments as to how and why illegal immigrants are wrong would be better suited in a thread about that. Not in a thread about people who suffered from a police officer's inaction, who happen to be illegal immigrants. That is my point that I'm trying to convey. You insist on trying to explain the wrongs they've done, as if that is relevant somehow. My post was my little way of pointing out that what they've done wrong doesn't matter. They still should have been helped the same way anyone else would have been helped.

Now, it is true that some are assuming that the cop did what he did because they are illegal immigrants. I am not making that contention, although I really don't blame those who are. Because I can almost guarantee that if I had been pulled over when I was pregnant my light haired, green eyed, pale skinned, late model car driving, somewhat fashionably dressed depending on the time of day, English speaking self would have been immediately whisked to the hospital if there had even been the slightest hint I was having a problem, and few would have it otherwise. I don't get why that changes because a person is an illegal immigrant. Yes, illegal immigrants are a problem. No, we don't treat them like subhumans as a result. My message, conveyed to you, nice and tidy.

[Lasher]

183. You couldn't be more wrong.

You: Crossing the border without papers is a civil offense. Just like speeding.

Fact: Crossing the border without permission is a Federal criminal offense, and not like speeding.

I must say I am disappointed. I thought you were big enough to admit you are wrong, when so bluntly confronted with that reality. Well I hope at least you will stop repeating this fabrication.

[Pithlet]

190. Fact. Refusing to call an ambulance in a medical emergency is wrong.

It's wrong whether the person ripped off the Do Not Remove tag from their mattress. It's wrong if the person defrauded an old lady from her life savings. It's wrong if someone jay walked. It's wrong if someone committed a murder. It's wrong if they crossed the border illegally. It's' wrong. If a cop sees someone who needs immediate medical attention and for what ever reason refuses to do so immediately, it's wrong. I could not be more right.

People can come in after the fact and explain why it's so wrong to remove a tag, or defraud a lady, or cross the street at the wrong place, as if it somehow changes the story. But, the correct response is "It doesn't matter. The cop should have done his duty and acted". You are in the wrong if you think otherwise, no matter what the crime is. Do you not see that???

[Lasher]

206. I never claimed it wasn't. n/t

[High Plains]

199. Why on earth would anyone every come here without proper papers?

Ask yourself that. Do you think they woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's be criminals"?

Or is more likely they woke up and said, "I cannot feed myself or my family here in Mexico. There is work in the north"?

Sneaking into another country is not a decision make for frivolous reasons. You are fortunate enough to have been born here (I suppose) where there are more opportunities.

But I don't know why I even bother to respond to someone who posts such hideous shit. You really might want to examine your callousness. It is not the least appealing. I already awarded you the Ugly American prize on this thread, against some very tough competition...

[TCJ70]

215. The article says why they came here...

They wanted money to pay for education and to help her family. Of course, to do that they had to take out a loan of $6,000 to get someone across the border...hrm...

[Jennicut]

99. I don't agree with them being here illegally but they as human beings deserved fast help

I think they are causing part of a health care crisis in this country which is why maybe amnesty needs to be granted so they get health insurance. Deporting them does not work, they will come back and just tax the system again.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. I disagree they are causing any part of our health care crisis

The for profit system is more to blame than any other factor.

But I do agree that deportation doesn't work.

[superconnected]

140. Yes it doesn't. They should get mandatory prison sentences.

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. And how do you propose we pay for the prisons we will need to build

to hold all these people?

[martymar64]

208. If your state has a Sales Tax, they contribute to the economy too.

They are a sizable group of people nationally and even they are here illegally, they don't exist in a vacuum. They have to buy goods here simply to live. And many of those goods are subject to local, state and federal sales taxes. I don't how much this contribution to the economy is, but I imagine it would be substantial.
Just as this little tidbit complicates the debate, the solution will have to be equally complex. Just deporting 12 million people would be a humanitarian nightmare. A large portion of the solution lies in our pulling our noses and armies out of other people's affairs, especially our neighbors to the south. We need to repeal NAFTA, CAFTA and other trade agreements that accelerate poverty and desperation in these countries, which is the root cause of the northward migration to begin with.
Without real trade reform, the migration issue will continue.

[Megahurtz]

122. The Policeman Was A Worthless Asshole

as certainly most of them are these days. I don't trust any of them. Our legal system is horrible and has deteriorated.

But my question is, why is she choosing to stay here when her husband was sent back to Mexico?
She says she "may never see him again" WTF???

So it's more important for her to stay in this Country alone than to be with her husband in Mexico?

That sounds pretty self-centered to me.

Unreal.

In any event fuck the Cops for being fucking assholes as usual.:grr:

[GetTheRightVote]

135. I feel badly for them from the human side of things but, and there is always going to be a big but

for anyone who arrives in this country illegally. When they cross the border illegally they put themselves into a certain position and should not expect to be treated as if they belong here...unforanutely for them, they do not.

If fact to be here they became criminals by their own feet, hands, etc. Our law Officials understand this far more then we do as regular citizens and probably deal with this more then we even realize. So do we merely ignore the fact that they broke our laws and therefore is it ok for ourselves to do the same. Would you ignore someone breaking into your own personal home, your car, who stole your money, etc. Yes it is the same and you would call the police.

Ignore a crime, the answer is clear and it would always be NO or we would find ourselves sitting in a prison being treated in much a similar way, unfortunately, treated inhumanly but done by our own hands. Do not do the crime if you are not willing to pay the piper. I cry more for the child who is lost because they have no fault unlike the adults around them.

[Pithlet]

156. No. Their being here illegally does not make it right for us to treat them inhumanly!

That is a disgusting point of view. I'm sorry. Would you support a cop letting a pregnant woman bleed to death on the side of the road because she has an unpaid parking ticket? After all, she broke the law! She should have paid her ticket! Her fault!

Inhumane treatment is not justice, no matter the crime.

[Blue_Tires]

198. the cop in this situation was wrong...i don't care if the couple was bonnie and clyde

that was a huge moral failure which will hopefully haunt him for the rest of his days...

[TCJ70]

214. Let's look at a few bits from the story...

It doesn't say if she speaks english...but I'll assume she didn't since they mention only the husbands english speaking ability.

1. "She insists they had no intention of settling in the United States; the plan was to save money to pay for their education and help her family. They arrived illegally in February of 2005, walking through the desert from the Mexican state of Sonora, which abuts Arizona."

So they didn't want to stay here, just wanted our money. That's fine. I think we have worker visas and other programs for that sort of thing. Apparently crossing the border illegaly didn't help anyones family...

2. "They were living with a group of immigrants when one bought a car he didn't know how to drive and hit a tree. Salgado said the police came with dogs, kicked in their door and searched everything.

"They treated us like delinquents," she said."

Do people from Mexico honestly not know that they're doing something wrong by just going into another country? The very first definition of deliquent is "failing in or neglectful of a duty or obligation; guilty of a misdeed or offense." (www.dictionary.com) Some would say that this is only a minor offense, but it is still an offense. The only thing the cop appears to be guilty of is not understanding Spanish, which in a majority english speaking country is not a chargeable offense.

3. "New York State Police Capt. John Tibbitts, who commands the area in Lewis where the stop took place, said the radio log showed that his troopers stopped Salgado and Tapia's car at 2:55 a.m. The Spanish-speaking trooper was called at 3:08. He arrived 10 minutes later and the ambulance was called a few minutes after that.

The radio log of the Essex County Emergency Services said its ambulance arrived on scene at 3:52, left with Salgado at 3:56 and arrived at the hospital at 4:45 a.m."

This doesn't really look like a bad time frame to me. Keep in mind that we don't know how far the hospital was from their location. It took the ambulance 50 minutes to get her back to a hospital, how much longer might that have taken them without a siren and lights? Also, this isn't the first baby she's lost. It mentions her having a miscarriage less than a year earlier. Maybe there are other factors here than what, at first, appears to be a cops negligence?