Teen FLDS mother giving birth while state officials stand by

[superconnected]

Source: AP

SAN MARCOS, Texas - One of the hundreds of young polygamist-sect members taken into custody by the state was giving birth Tuesday while child welfare officials, state troopers and fellow sect members stood watch outside the maternity ward.
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Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting, Azar said.
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Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.
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Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.




Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080429/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

[Maddy McCall]

1. These kids have been abused.

I don't care what anyone else says. when half the girls in custody between the ages of 14 and 17 have given birth or are pregnant, ALWAYS by adult men, they have been abused, both by those babies' fathers, AND by their own parents who handed them over to the predators.

This cult exists for no other reason but to molest girls.

[mike_c]

4. do you really think that's the case...?

"This cult exists for no other reason but to molest girls."

I mean, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool athiest so I have ZERO tolerance for the doctrinal or religious underpinnings of this or any other superstitious cult, christian or otherwise, but we both know that these folks do have them, and they likely don't include molesting young girls. I guess my point is that it's easy to condemn folks for behavior that we don't like, but hard to try and understand that behavior. Unfortunately, the only real way to prevent it later is to be somewhat detached today, at least enough to gain a better understanding.

Back to my earlier point though, as I understand it their doctrine demands that women produce as many children as possible in order to bring souls waiting to be born to Earth. Of course, polygamy isn't really required to do that-- just early child-bearing. It doesn't make sense to kick out the young men and marry the girls en mass to older patriarchs just to create lots of progeny-- the young men could do that just as well or better. So maybe there's an element of truth in your statement after all.

[Marrah_G]

10. The women live a life os slavery, thinking this is the only reason "God" created them

What better way to keep a steady stream of victims then to breed them. Even the slave owners in the old south knew it was cheaper to breed them then to import them.

[mike_c]

15. damn, and I thought *I* had a poor opinion of human nature....

No criticism, sister, just conversation! Seriously, you're right of course. It's just that when you get to the point of accepting that people's motives will always be SO without redemption or honor then that's... just... really bleak. Maybe justifiably so, but damn.

I've mostly avoided commenting in these FLDS threads, largely because I have so little understanding of WHY any of this happened except what my innate cynicism about human nature tells me-- that people will do ANYTHING to one another if the rewards match their values closely enough. That's essentially what you're saying too-- moral considerations will always be trumped by expedience in meeting human desires.

Gowd, this is depressing. That's another reason I've stayed out of these threads.

[Marrah_G]

16. Flip it around though

This should have been stopped long ago, but now that it is really out in the media people are moving forward to accomplish that again. Look at the case workers in TX, most are truly great people who do a really horrible job for little pay, because they want to help others. Lawyers are coming forward and offering services. Church groups are coming forward offering to help.

There is alot of good in the world, sometimes it just takes something big to wake people up.

Yes these cults are horrible, but I have faith that their days are now numbered.

There may be little I can do about this happening in other countries, except continuing to speak out and try and educate others, but here in America we can all stand up.

We can stand together and say "Not in our America will women be raised as chattel" We can call on our elected officials to stand strong against these people who hide their crimes behind the cloak of religion.

So take heart, the good is there, it is just not spoken of as loudly.

:hug:

[customerserviceguy]

23. It is depressing

I read a quote over on another site about a week ago, "With or without religion, good people will do good things, and evil people will do evil things, but to get good people to do evil things takes religion."

[jwirr]

18. I am not sure about the actual doctrine but I think there is the idea

that the more children (descendants) a man produces the more saintly he is. Thus throw out the younger competition and keep the girls for themselves.

[mike_c]

25. ahh-- I suppose it makes a little more sense in that context...

...since it isn't just about producing as many babies as possible, but rather about patriarchs producing as many offspring as they possibly can. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Warpy]

19. Children were removed from their mothers after weaning

and housed dormitory style, severing the maternal bond. This was a factory farm for female ass so that old men could have a steady supply of young poontang.

I hate to be blunt, but this was a booty farm.

It would be very instructive to locate some of the lost boys, the ones who were dumped by the side of the road outside the cult to fend for themselves once they started to notice girls. It seems there are 36 of them missing, since parity between the sexes existed before puberty.

[Runcible Spoon]

21. here's my (brief!) take on it (PhD candidate cultural anthropology)

all over the world there are practices which would turn our Western sensitive stomachs; a great majority of world cultures do not share our perspectives in terms of what constitutes childhood, or even personhood. What we would call infanticide, child molestation, or outright pure cold blooded murder is an every day reality to some. However, I have wrestled with the notion of teasing out some framework of universal human rights, and this is a hotly debated topic in the anthro world today.

I would not outright condemn practictions of "barbaric" rituals without first understanding them within their own cultural context, even to the extent of genital mutilation or other extreme body modification. Nor would I outright condemn the marriage of 14 year old girls necessarily, for in some cultures following these practices is a necessary rite of passage to existing peacefully within one's society. Whether or not universal human rights would strive to phase out these practices or not says nothing of the safety and well-being of the vulnerable people who are undergoing these practices RIGHT NOW. It has been proven historically and I don't really thikn I need to provide examples since it is so obvious, that a colonial/imperial power, even when they preach benevolence and caring, going into a culture unknown to them and trying to force those people how to live is: unethical, dangerous, cruel, often bloody and NEVER EFFECTIVE.

All that said, the FLDS cult/society what have you lives within the context of and under full knowledge of USA law, meta-culture, and customs. At least those with power are aware of these things, and I would suspect that those having less power under the laws of this community are withheld knowledge of the outside world. So, I DO blame the patriarchy of this system for repressing women and children, as they do so not just under their own customs but deliberately in revolt of widely-held beliefs of the larger "American Culture".

Many children growing up on Native American reservations could have been hypothetically controlled this way, in addition to Amish/Penn. Dutch communities. However, these groups, while still having some degree of antagonistic relationships with mainstream American and choosing to perpetuate a separate belief system and society, strive to give their children a CHOICE. largely, these groups make their children aware of the benefits and dangers of the outside world, assert the importance of their ethnic/religious/etc. identity, and in the end allow the children a choice to continue life within the community or to venture off into the larger world. A surprisingly high number choose to stay or at least remain actively invested in the interests of their native communities.

I don't think this society allowed this, therefore I would professionally use the term "exploitation" here.

[Marrah_G]

22. What a great post

These children have a right to dream and to choose the life they desire. They have a right to an education and to choose whom they allow into their bodies.

If men and women choose, with full knowledge that they have a choice, then I would not object. It is the enslavement of the women and children that offends me most. This is America and these young girls should have the same right to choose her life path as my daughter has. Women in America are no longer chattel.

Anytime someone is not free to pick her child up and walk away, and instead has to escape in the middle of the night, there is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

I have to wonder- what sort of hell a lesbian would live in that community?

[mike_c]

24. interesting, perceptive remarks....

Thank you for your response. Some days I think I'm just more curious than outraged, even though outrage might be justified.

[Marrah_G]

5. It is not uncommon for a mother and daughter to be married to the same man

Or for sisters to be married to the same man. Or for children to have to all of a sudden call their sister "Mother".

[superconnected]

2. I want to know where about 36 boys are.

[dbackjon]

3. Forced out, wandering homeless, probably.

[Marrah_G]

8. The boys at that ranch are the favored boys

Brought from other compounds because the leadership is grooming them to take over someday. The majority of young men are forced out while their parents say nothing.

These parents, these weeping mothers deserve no pity. They say nothing when their sons are thrown out and they say nothing when they hand their daughter into servitude to a man 3 or 4 times her age.

There is a picture of the now deceased Rulon Jeffs, father of Warren Jeffs. He is picture with his 2 new teen brides. A GIFT for his 90TH birthday.

Imagine being 16 or 18 and given to a 90 year old man with 80 wives as a fucking gift while your parents applaud.

[superconnected]

14. yep, that's what I expect.

[aquart]

6. Those men need to go to jail on that issue alone.

[kestrel91316]

17. You, and me, and hopefully a few of those good folks in TX

who are investigating these freaks.

If I were them, I'd be checking out that ranch with some cadaver dogs.

[shain from kane]

7. There's some sick Mormonfuckers out there.

[izquierdista]

9. Good thing this didn't come out any earlier

It might have made it real tough on Mitt Romney.

[customerserviceguy]

26. Convenient

that it didn't come out until after his bid for the Presidency was dropped...

[DemocratInSoCal]

11. God Needs To Completely Clense The Planet And Start Over

It's the only fair way. Wipe everybody out, and perhaps the next time humans will get it right.

[customerserviceguy]

29. Uhh,

You go first, OK?

Seriously, your deity meddling around in human affairs enough to cause the entire destruction of a species (which species is fully capable of doing so itself) is an insult to those of us who think that humankind can figure its way out of the darkness. The fact that we've increased lifespans and quality of life for hundreds of millions, if not actual billions of people on the planet, is not diminished by the equally certain fact that not everybody has caught up yet.

Go take the like minded, move to your own planet, and wait for your sky-father invisible friend to wipe you out. The rest of us will work for the advancement of humankind.

[LanternWaste]

37. I would imagine that when confronted with depressed behavior

I've seen more than enough secularists give up on the fate of mankind also. I certainly don't think someone needs what you so cleverly called 'sky-father' to lose hope as we live our lives and observe many of the thing that happen around us.

Indeed, I would imagine that when confronted with depressed behavior from others concerning the state of the world, we would attempt to help that person overcome that feeling rather than further marginalize them.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

39. Why should God clean up our mess?

:shrug:

[Zachstar]

12. Sickening just sickening.

The whole system in my view is one of horror that must be stopped.

I hope they find evidence to issue against the other compounds as well.

And I want to know what happened to the boys missing in the age group. They do not just vanish into thin air.

[Marrah_G]

13. They are in other compunds working or they have been banished.

The young men in this compound are the favored boys, being groomed for leadership. The girls were sent there because the leaders were getting nervous in the other states. The ranch was an admitted place for them to escape the investigations of the AZ an Utah AGs.

[hisownpetard]

20. After profiting from their free labor all those years, when most of the boys reach the age of 16 or

17 they are banished into a world of which they know nothing.

Some resort to drugs or prostitution, just to survive. They are referred to as the "lost boys."
Many are homeless and just disappear.

[jazzjunkysue]

27. I teach teenagers. 17 year old boys need all the support and security

that girls get. Maybe more. Being male doesn't mean they're ready to be all alone. I think the parents should be prosecuted for abandoning their boys, even if it's technically legal.

[hisownpetard]

31. Of course they do. It's a horrible thing to do to one's child and they should

be held accountable.

[Lars39]

28. I wonder if she is the first one to benefit from an epidural?

Were all the other children home births?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

36. Probably.

And there are dead teenaged girls too, if none of them went to a hospital for delivery. Dead because they had pelves too small and could have been saved with a routine C-section. How sad.

And probably a lot of brain-damaged and dead babies due to lack of medical care. Very sad also.

[LanternWaste]

38. they most likely had some minimal medical standards.

I'd read that there was a small medical facility in the compound and a doctor who lived on premises-- as and far as I know, the FLDS don't seem to have any restrictions against modern medicines spelled out.

So I'm thinking that, although not the best in the world, they most likely had some minimal medical standards.

But again, that's mere supposition on my part...

[ColbertWatcher]

30. 2 questions.

"Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting, Azar said."

How many of these girls were married?

"Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range."

How many of the boys are married?

[uppityperson]

32. None of those pg/given birth are legally married.

Read the OP. "none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law."

[ColbertWatcher]

GLITCH

[ColbertWatcher]

33. What about the boys? n/t

[uppityperson]

34. Probably not.

I found this bit from a 4/08/08 article. From what I've read, other info posted, this seems accurate.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/TopStories/stories/MYSA040808.01A.polygamistraid.3a416e5.html

"Similarly, minor boys residing on the YFZ Ranch after they become adults are spiritually married to minor female children and engage in sexual relationships with them resulting in them becoming sexually perpetrators, This pattern and practice places all of the children located at the YFZ Ranch, both male and female, to risks of emotional, physical and/or sexual abuse," said the affidavit.

The article is several weeks old, but I'm not up for researching the general FLDS info again. I don't believe they marry boys before they are of legal age, but don't know for sure about these ones.

[ColbertWatcher]

35. OK. Thank you. n/t

[fed_up_mother]

40. Perhaps an exception here or there, but they must prove themselves first

Which generally means working their asses off and obeying their leaders every command. And since all homes are communally owned by the religious corporation(s), you can't just take a wife and go rent an apartment, ya' know? Everything is controlled.