Official: History of injuries found in polygamist sect kids

[Shakespeare]

Source: Associated Press

Investigators have discovered a history of physical injuries, including broken bones, in children taken from a polygamist sect's ranch compound, the chief of state protective services told legislators Wednesday.

The state has been criticized for taking all 463 children from the ranch, including infants and boys, on the theory that the girls may be abused when they are teens.

He said medical examinations have revealed numerous injuries, including broken bones, in "very young children."

Cockerell gave no other details on the children's injuries, but said 41 children were involved. CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins declined to elaborate on the commissioner's comments. The department's child protective services division is caring for the children.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

[kestrel91316]

1. If only 41 children were injured, why did they take all the others???!!1!!!

The state has totally overstepped its bounds!!!!11!!!1!!

:sarcasm:

[LanternWaste]

2. Well... you knew someone was going to say it sooner or later.

Well... you knew someone was going to say it sooner rather than later.




"But.... but.... but 80,000 children break bones in TX every year-- should we arrest all of them too?" :sarcasm:

On Edit-- not being snarky to you, mind you. I'm being snarky to the same people you directed your comment at (I quit smoking yesterday and cannot concentrate or write/say a coherent thing to save my life today)

[uppityperson]

4. Why didn't they get evidence before removing them?

After all, you can't arrest someone without probable cause.
:sarcasm:

OK, now we've covered that, back to discussing the issue.

[havocmom]

5. LOL What a kind person you are! Saving the apologists for abusers the trouble of whining

their constant chorus! :thumbsup:

[darue]

12. shutting these people down and eliminating their sick sect is a must

how in hell can a democrat defend this sort of brainwashing controlling cult?

[uppityperson]

14. That was sarcasm, but yes, some are defending it, says Constitution

and legal things. I think it goes: Constitution says you can worship as you like, and are free from unreasonable search and seizure. They seem to confuse what CPS can do and how Law enforcement must act.

[leftynyc]

3. I have a feeling

we've only begun to be horrified at what was going on in that compound. When are they going to start arresting the "leaders" for child abuse, rape, pederasty, welfare fraud? And polygamy is still against the law.

[kestrel91316]

6. I don't think they can pursue polygamy prosecutions because none

of the plural marriages were LEGAL marriages.

That's ok. THese guys are probably all looking at eventual life sentences on just the statutory rape counts, let alone all the other abuses.

[uppityperson]

8. Unless they were breaking the law to get "marriage" benefits.

You can be sexually or domestically related to as many people as you want, so long as they are of legal age. You can call it a "marriage" but cannot take/get the legal benefits since it's not legal.

[Marrah_G]

7. They will arrest them once they have evidence

And I have little doubt the things they hear from these children will go a long way in locking these people up.

Remember that the things that will end up landing these folks in jail are things they taught the children to think were perfectly normal. The kids will spill it all once they settle into their current homes.

[leftynyc]

11. My heart just aches for those children

The girls who were raised that it was perfectly okay for their parents to not have a role in raising them (I understand once weaned, they lived in a dorm-like setting and called all women mom), that it was normal to have a old geezer slobber all over them and get them pregnant while still children themselves. And for the boys who were discarded like garbage when they became competition for the older men. The whole sordid thing just makes me sick. And we know it's also happening in Utah and Arizona - why hasn't anything been done about those compounds?

[NashVegas]

22. Those Who Get Fostered Out

Will still be at risk; if it's true they've been raised to see sexual relations with much older men as the norm, it's going to take sainthood and patience on the part of some foster parents.

[uppityperson]

23. CPS said they were having special training for foster parents.

What with all the publicity, they will most likely be keeping a close eye on the foster homes and giving the parents a lot of support.

[leftynyc]

26. I understand that many local churchs

are getting involved in this. Parishioners are willing to foster care/adopt these children. Just having them adjust to life outside the walls of that compound is going to be a very traumatic experience.

[superconnected]

65. actually for most of them it will be a liberation, inside was tramatic.

Have you seen the videos of the people who escaped that keep getting posted here?

[leftynyc]

69. I agree that ultimately they

will be much better off but for children to be separated from all they know is familiar and into a world they didn't even know existed will be traumatic.

I've resisted seeing the videos. When I was reading Banner, I wanted to put my fist through the wall. That this is happening in this country with the apparent permission from local law authorities makes me ill (I mean in UT and AZ - I give kudos to Texas for confronting this all the while knowing how difficult and expensive it was going to be for the state).

[hedgehog]

33. These girls are not wanton seducers; they engaged in sexual activity

with older men after being married to them. BTW - are you seriously suggesting that a majority of males would jump at the chance to have sex with an underage female in their care?

[Zachstar]

37. The rumor is these boys have been trained to be so.

And at the time that they are going through a heightened state of emotions due to the changing conditions it puts everyone at risk.

This is NOT a normal situation and it will take YEARS for ANYONE to adjust to a normal life.

This is not all males period of course. But the risk because of the situation of the boys found is large.

[NashVegas]

47. Please

It's just not that simple.

I'm suggesting there is a minority percentage of people who take in foster children who end up doing the kids harm, including sexual abuse. This is a fact.

Add to that statistic you're talking about kids who've been trained to make themselves sexually available to and go along with the absolute authority of the male head of the household and you've got a potential for further head tripping.

[hedgehog]

52. OK I see what you're saying now. It's an unfortunate fact that

pedophiles are good at insinuating themselves into situations where they have access to kids; coaching, scout leader, teacher, etc. Getting certified as a foster parent is a classic. I think a normal man would be as attracted to a kid as he would be to a tree. Some persons are just off-limits.

[lolly]

30. Re: Lost Boys

I read in some newspaper account that, for this particular group, the ratio of boys:girls got way off kilter over the age of 15 or so. I wonder if anybody has tried to track down those "missing" boys--either in Texas, or wherever this cult lived before decamping to Texas. Perhaps they could provide some insight into the treatment of children that children currently still in the cult couldn't?

[leftynyc]

31. I would hope there is some kind of

effort to find these boys/men. One for the wealth of information they have on this cult and two for the help they desperately need in terms of emotional and financial.

[kestrel91316]

15. I can't WAIT for the DNA testing results to start pouring in.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Me neither

Once they determine the father of the children, can't the state demand he pay child support? It would seem to me that that would stop this sick cult in their tracks.

[Shakespeare]

28. I suspect it'll show evidence of incest, too.

What a hideous situation. x(

[Zachstar]

38. That is just part of it.

With the DNA hopefully they will prove alot more and hopefully enough charges will be proven for some of them to go jail for 4-5 decades.

The world will be different in that time

[Diane R]

27. Those old goats will never submit to DNA testing. I'll bet they've already fled to Mexico.

They know the DNA results will show evidence for criminal charges of sexual abuse.

[High Plains]

34. I thought a bunch of them already had. No?

[1776Forever]

13. I am with you - I posted this on the disease from inbreeding that some members don't even know!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3201645

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit

[leftynyc]

16. I remember reading about that disease

in relation to this group. After reading "Under the Banner of Heaven", I did a smidge of research on these people. I'm just disgusted at this happening in this country seemingly with the blessing of the local authorities. I'm not a big believer in the feds getting involved in something like this but maybe this case calls for that.

[1776Forever]

21. Agree - it must be stopped somewhere - as the article says it is only going to get worse..

with more and more of these babies being born with more and more terrible maladies like being born without arms and legs and retardation in a high concentration. The people also had government contracts where the men would go to work and then they gave most of their money to the leaders so they could live like Warren Jeffs did in Las Vegas. I also feel that the story of the "lost boys" has not been covered enough either!

[sandyd921]

60. Here's a preview of what went on

and continues at other FLDS locations:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3224231&mesg_id=3224231

[leftynyc]

70. I hesitate to thank you for the link

because what I read there makes me want to throw up. The authorities in TX deserve our praise in taking on this monstrosity.

[Faux pas]

9. Time to start taking down the other flds compounds. This

sickens me to my soul.

I think we have enough crap to clean up in our own backyard. Kinda hard to convince the rest of the world we have all the answers when our own country is such a cesspool.

[Zachstar]

39. It is likely going to be months or years before they have enough of a case to raid the other compund

They have to prove a direct link with the current case. Or someone from that compound has to report to start a raid.

And the other compounds are likely on full alert to keep one of their own from alerting.

[Faux pas]

68. Just what they know from the 'escapees' and Lost Boys should

be enough to get behind the gates. It shouldn't even be an announced 'raid', that would make it fruitless.

[uppityperson]

10. another article and link to Senate hearing TX Health and Human Services

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/050108dnmetcps.b440e1cf.html
"Watch the Senate hearing in progress" http://www.senate.state.tx.us/ram/helix/ch1.ram
I'm listening but not sure what all they are talking about. Child abuse, but not sure what all since just turned it on.

Dozens of youngsters swept by the state from a polygamist sect suffered broken or fractured bones in the past, some when children were "very young," Texas' top protective services official said today.

Carey Cockerell, head of the Department of Family and Protective Services, the parent agency of Child Protective Services, told a Senate panel that medical exams of the 463 youngsters removed from the sect discovered that 41 had previous bone breaks or fractures."Several of these fractures have been found in very young children," Mr. Cockerell testified before the Senate Health and Human Services Committee. He did not specify their ages.

Mr. Cockerell said some individual youngsters experienced more than one bone break or fracture. He did not elaborate. At least initially, senators heeded Committee Chairwoman Jane Nelson's request they not ask questions about the April 4 raid and child removals so as not to jeopardize the ongoing legal investigation.
(clip)

Of course there are children who have had a broken arm or a broken leg, he said. "But to this magnitude – the picture they’re painting is very misleading," Mr. Jessop said. "It will never be able to be backed up with any facts." According to the Web site of the Seattle Children’s Hospital, about half of all boys and a quarter of all girls break a bone sometime during childhood.

Mr. Cockerell also disclosed new details about difficulties the state had in keeping track of the children at makeshift shelters it set up in San Angelo this month. He said it tried three different times to have each youngster and mother wear a wristband but some were tampered with. Also, he said some mothers switched children, and some exchanged clothes with one another, changing their own and the children's appearances. He said the sect’s mothers are use to "sharing motherly duties, including breast feeding."

[kestrel91316]

17. If the broken bones were come by in the normal course of

childhood, there should be medical records indicating they received appropriate care. My guess is, no such records exist, and adequate care was not provided. Which is problematic in itself.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Yes...not getting broken bones set

is an example of child neglect. This sect isn't one that believes that you can only use prayers to heal, and so cannot hide behind religion to explain this neglect.

[FreeState]

35. There are records - Texas has a problem

There are records, they use a medical clinic off of the ranch and the records are there per several sources, the state never requested them - Texas has a problem and they are going to make life bad for these children if they do not get there act together.

First off they need to prosecute sexual and physical abuse to the fullest extent of the law.

The problem is they are playing fast with the facts trying to get public support rather than really trying to help the kids. Broken bones in 41 children out of 460? Thats less than 10% and most people break at least two bones in their lifetime, thats 50% - meaning the stat is LOW compared to the average population. (see: http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/otherfractures/a/fracture.htm)

Texas is trying to win a public opinion not trying to help these children and its heartbreaking to me.

[yardwork]

45. Do most people break bones as children? I think not.

Many elderly people break bones.

[FreeState]

48. Yes breaking bones as a child is extremely common (links)

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/general/aches/broken_bones.html

"The harder kids play, the harder they fall. The fact is, broken bones, or fractures, are common in childhood and often happen when kids are playing or participating in sports. Most fractures occur in the upper extremities: the wrist, the forearm, and above the elbow. Why? When children fall, it's a natural instinct for them to throw their hands out in an attempt to stop it."


http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/pediatricsurgery/a/fractures.htm

"Fractures are an extremely common injury sustained by children; in fact it is probably the most common reason for a child to visit an orthopedic surgeon."


Keeping in mind that people on the FLDS ranch grew their own food and do not have the healthiest of diets (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/23/polygamist.retreat.ap/).


http://www.mealsmatter.org/EatingForHealth/Topics/article.aspx?articleId=506

"Today, only a fraction of children—12 percent of females and 32 percent of males—get enough calcium to build bone mass during their critical teenage years, putting them at risk for fractures now and osteoporosis, a disease where bones become brittle and more likely to break, later in life.

A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association revealed that boys are 32 percent and girls 56 percent more likely to experience bone fracture than children were 40 years ago."

[uppityperson]

57. Couple questions and comments.

This seems an obvious comment as why else would kids visit ortho surgeons? Hip replacements? "Fractures are an extremely common injury sustained by children; in fact it is probably the most common reason for a child to visit an orthopedic surgeon."

Secondly, "Probably over 90 percent of the injuries are forearm fractures from ground-level or low level falls," Cockerell also said 41 FLDS children had evidence of broken bones, some of whom are "very young." This makes me wonder why. Is it because their diet is lacking so they break bones easily, or is it because of their actions or others actions on them? The "very young" part is the bit that bothers me.

It will be good to see what comes out of this.

[FreeState]

59. I dont have the answers to those either but would love them

I imagine part of the reason is diet, however 10% is still a very low figure IMO, it should be higher, when 50% of the population has broken more than one bone in their lifetime. I know I have broken a finger and my leg - both before the age of 6.

My main concern is Texas is playing a public opinion game here by giving half truths instead of focusing on the children.

Its very evident they know the ages but to just say "very young". WTF - why even mention it if they are not going to be honest and address the fact that 10% is not a high number for broken bones?

Its kind of like the media going nuts about the bed they found in their temple - it sounds very damaging when you don't know the whole story (their temple ceremony is over 3 hours long and can go much longer - its there for people to rest on when there are medical issues, low blood sugar etc Sure they could be used for sex and possibly were, but there is no physical evidence it was used for that. The mainstream LDS temples use to all have beds in them for very similar reasons, the beds were removed a while ago when the LDS temple ceremony was converted to film and the time condensed to a little over an hour and a half).

I wish they would focus on the a children instead of trying to get public opinion on their side.

[sandyd921]

62. My understanding is that

it depends on the type of fracture. I'm not a medical expert but I understand that emergency room physicians, for example, alert to particular types of fractures that do not commonly result from typical childhood activities but are likely to result from abuse. I suspect that they will be able to tell if the fractures are of the suspicious type.

[mbperrin]

71. Your post is misleading.

From your own source:

The average citizen in a developed country can expect to sustain two fractures over the course of their lifetime.

These children are hardly at the end of their life, are they? And this is for all developed countries, not just the US. I am one of 4 children, one of 29 cousins, have 3 children and 6 grandchildren, and not one of us has ever had a broken bone, and the oldest is 59 years old, and the youngest 2. Now this is anecdotal, but your source never really tells us how many children break bones.

I teach, and of 400 students this year, one has broken a bone.

Just not buying that 10% of the population breaks a bone in the first few months of life.

Looking for more...

[uppityperson]

73. Another article, but the numbers still aren't clear. Bit more on kids and fractures..

If 1% of kids have a broken bone every yr, then over 10 yrs 10% will have if none do it again? More lies, damned lies and statistics, but still it is a bit more.
http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/18448404.html
The state also revealed medical exams and reports from the kids themselves indicate at least 41 children have broken bones. That's nearly ten percent. Outside Eldorado, less than one percent of American children suffer a broken bone each year.


http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/9836.html
Because children are more active and less experienced than adults, they are more likely to break bones, particularly arms or legs. Breaks in the thighbone (the femur) are common in children. As many as 40% of boys and 25% of girls break their thighbones during childhood. They usually result from a moderate- to high-energy injury. About one out of every 2,000 breaks his or her femur every year. Femoral shaft fractures in children are common and usually result from a moderate to high-energy injury.

http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/pediatricsurgery/a/fractures.htm
True or False: Children often bend their bones rather than break them.
TRUE! Their bones are more pliable, and tend to bend more without breaking. This attribute explains the reason for finding both greenstick and torus fractures almost exclusively in the pediatric population. Greenstick fractures occur when the bone breaks on one side, like bending a fresh tree branch, but it stays in continuity on the bent side. A torus fracture occurs when the bone buckles on one side, but it is not separated.


It will be interesting to see what type breaks, ages, etc. There has been info that their diet is lacking in calcium, which could make bones more brittle. I still mistrust FLDS, hope more info is released by authorities to clarify.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sam Ervin jret]

24. Don't for get the "spare the rod spoil the child "supporters. There has been a growing

back lash against perceived shortcomings of "liberal" child rearing techniques. The most dangerous of these has been the return to corporal punishment and the belief that hitting a person who is smaller than you, dependent upon you and learning life's lessons from you is acceptable and even necessary.

This misguided and dangerous belief is not found solely in cults but it's hard to find a cult that does not hold to this belief system.

There are schools in America that still are using this as a "punishment."

We all need to weed this practice out of our society without quilt that we may have "spanked" our child in a time of frustration or in the belief we had no other choice. We must stop this practice even though we may be tempted to try to rationalize that "it happened to us we turned out all right."

Did we?

How do we know we would not have been better off had we all as a society never heard of spanking. If the very thought brought tears to our eyes and bile to our throat?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. I was never spanked by my mother

however, I was emotionally abused. So I think it wise to understand that abuse takes many forms, and just because someone was never spanked does not mean that they didn't suffer other forms of abuse.

[yardwork]

25. Any minute now we're going to hear about these parents' constitutional right

to beat their children until all their little bones are broken. Yep, it's right here somewhere under "freedom of religion."

/sarcasm

[Disturbed]

32. "it's also happening in Utah and Arizona"

Nevada & New Mexico. Also in Canada. Will the authorities in Canada keep ignoring the FLDS?

[High Plains]

36. I hate to interrupt this righteous circle jerk, but...

Even Texas CPS officials ARE NOT claiming that the broken bones are the result of abuse. From the article:

Although Cockerell didn't elaborate on the broken bones, a report by his department's Child Protective Services division said medical exams and interviews indicated "that at least 41 children have had broken bones in the past."

"We do not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information, but it is cause for concern and something we'll continue to examine," the CPS report said.

Question: Is this an usual number of broken bone or injuries among kids? Seems like about 10% of the seized kids. Are the numbers higher or lower among the population at large? Or farm kids? I don't know, and I don't have time to research it right now, but it is the kind of question that should be asked by people interested in getting at the truth here, as opposed to this crowd, which seems primarily interested in doing whatever you can to demonize these people.

Now for the other side of the story. Also from the article:

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker called Cockerell's testimony "a deliberate effort to mislead the public." Although the ranch has a small medical facility, Parker said any broken bones would have been treated away from the ranch and that doctors are required to report suspected abuse. Parker said state officials were "trying to politically inoculate themselves from the consequences of this horrible tragedy."

Question: Is he lying? What about his point that doctors would have reported abuse? Again, it would be preferable if we tried to get at the truth hear instead of cheerleading for one side or the other.

[woo me with science]

40. These are good questions, and I think

the nature of the broken bones will be significant. The first time I heard mention of this on the cable TV shows, it sounded like 41 of the youngest children had broken bones. That sounded horrible, but you are right that it will be important to see how many total children they are talking about, the rates of injury, and the comparisons to normal populations. You have to keep in mind that these kids probably aren't out playing sports and jumping on each other, but they may be engaged in hard manual labor.

The types of injuries will also be significant. There are certain types of breaks (e.g., spiral fractures/twisting injuries) that are strongly suggestive of abuse. All this should come out in time. You are right that it is tempting, when emotions are running so high, for both sides to leap to conclusions based on incomplete media reports.

[Pharlo]

50. In the event that the occurrence of broken bones in these children is

slightly higher than average, I'd be curious, also, to know if there is a genetic bone weakness that could contribute to the phenomenon.

[LanternWaste]

41. FLDS fathers are in reality saints who rescue puppies from the highways

I don' think anyone on this thread has stated the FLDS absolutely did it, either. We're simply looking at what appears to be more and more information coming out, mentally collating it and coming to an obvious conclusion.

But hey-- we could be wrong about all this and the FLDS fathers are in reality saints who rescue puppies from the highways, help little old ladies across the streets, and macramé clothes for third world countries.

I doubt that to be the case, but I'm sure there are many people who, in their zeal to demonize CPS and have their own righteous circle jerk of one may actually believe it...

[yardwork]

43. Would you be willing to acknowledge that the issue should be investigated?

Speaking as a mother, it sounds like a high percentage of broken bones among children, especially considering their age and the fact that the majority of them are boys. Offhand, I'd say that far, far fewer than 10% of my children's playmates had broken bones. I've never had a broken bone. Neither have my children. Neither have more than 2-3 of their classmates over the years - a number much, much less than 10%, or even 1%

So yes, the number of broken bones sounds high.

Next, do I believe the paid spokesperson for the group that is under investigation? I have no reason to believe anything he says. He's paid to put a positive spin on the charges. Do I believe that all broken bones "would have been treated away from the ranch?" No, I do not. In cases of abuse, it often comes to light that parents have failed to take their injured children to the hospital for treatment. It's not at all uncommon for abused children to turn out to have multiple broken bones that were not treated.

Have any doctors come forward as ever having treated any FLDS children? Perhaps they are talking with Texas CPS.

Where are all the boys? What about the various eyewitness accounts from people who have escaped from these sects over the years? Are they all lying?

Of course laws must be followed and investigations must be done properly. But you must admit, I think, that more and more evidence is being made public that indicates that Texas CPS had very good reasons for removing children from potential harm and investigating this group.

Were it not for CPS throughout the nation, who would rescue abused children? This is a serious question, as you have advocated libertarian ideals in previous posts. Do you believe that the government never has a right to protect children?

[High Plains]

49. Yes, possible abuse should be investigated...

...leaving aside for the moment the apparently fraudulent way in which abuse at El Dorado was first alleged. (The phone girl from the girl who apparently doesn't exist.) CPS has opened a can of worms, and we might as well get to the bottom of it.

I hope their investigations do not end up showing horrible abuses having taken place (unlike some other posters who are positively salivating in anticipation of confirmation of their worst fears).

I'm inclined to leave these communities alone unless they are breaking laws, and I don't mean the polygamy laws (which they apparently evade, anyway). There are claims that the women and children are brainwashed or held against their will or otherwise abused. Kidnapping is against the law. Physical abuse is against the law. Statutory rape is against the law. I don't know about "brainwashing," though.

I share no values with these people that I know of. Yet rather than try to destroy them through a full frontal offensive, as appears to be popular here, I would prefer to see them exposed to the light of day, their authoritarian structures weakened. I think this would lead to a diminuition of the power of the patriachs and, eventually, the dissolution of the sect. I don't think it is sustainable if people have full access to the rest of society. Maybe a few hard-cores would choose to remain. Maybe more than a few. But as long as it is their choice, it's their choice.

I think attempting to destroy this sect is less likely to prove successful in the long-run than tightening the screws a little bit. They tried it in 1953. It didn't work.

On the believablility of CPS vs FLDS: I believe neither, I take neither at their word. Both are playing for very high stakes, both are likely to say what they think benefits their cause. For some reason, I don't believe public officals never lie or distort or misstate, but I do believe they are very good at trying to cover their asses. Ditto for lawyers.

[Shakespeare]

51. How much credence do I give FLDS? Considering their ongoing attempts to sabotage the investigation-

--not much. Innocent people don't generally try to derail a criminal investigation if they have nothing to hide.

The more information that comes out, the more damning the situation appears. I'm all for letting the truth come out--ALL of it. Especially the truth the FLDS is trying so hard to cover up.

[High Plains]

55. Lot's of people are claiming lots of things. FLDS, CPS...

...I take neither side at its word. Let's see the evidence in court, whether family or criminal.

[Shakespeare]

63. that's not a claim; that's fact n/t

[uppityperson]

53. They are being investigated so far, not claiming anything yet.

That is true.

Question: the FLDS spokesman Parker said broken bones would have been treated away from the ranch. Why would that be when most every other illness, injury, preganancy, death, were treated at the ranch and not by outside doctors?

Answer: from another FLDS member: (While I want to believe physicians, I don't trust FLDS spokesmen at this point)

"Lloyd Barlow, the ranch's onsite physician, said he was caring for a number of FLDS children with broken or fractured bones at the time they were removed from the ranch. He said he has referred a number of families to emergency rooms in nearby San Angelo and to orthopedic specialists.

"Probably over 90 percent of the injuries are forearm fractures from ground-level or low level falls," Barlow told The Associated Press from his office at the Eldorado ranch. "I can also tell you that we don't live in a community where there is a pattern of abuse."

Barlow said he is an FLDS member but also a licensed physician in Texas and Utah and is required by law to report suspected abuse"

Question: what type fractures? Verified by non-FLDS physician. Spiral, greenstick, or from a fall.

[uppityperson]

54. what IS a "righteous circle jerk" and how does one participate online?

[High Plains]

56. "Righteous circle jerk"

My phrase, my definition: When a bunch of posters convinced they are on the side of the angels post something they think strenghtens their case, exult over it, don't look at it critically, and then sneer (even preemptively!) at anyone who might disagree with them.

Such behavior does not strengthen their case, but it must feel good, since I see an awful lot of it (and not just in FLDS threads). A form of mental masturbation.

[mainer]

42. Discrepancy in number of boys vs. girls. Where are boys?

I read in another article that there were more girls than boys among the children in protective custody -- a ratio that's more lopsided than would be expected in any random community. Where are the missing boys? Or did they leave all the teenage boys on the ranch?

[yardwork]

44. Good question. Where are all the boys?

[Marrah_G]

46. The older children were not born there, they were brought there

The boys are the favored boys- so there are only a handful.

There are alot more girls because they moved alot more girls there. Especially since the age of consent in their main city is 18.

[lolly]

64. They're "lost"

Google search on FLDS + Lost Boys:

http://www.google.com/search?q=FLDS+Lost+Boys

They're taken to the outskirts of town and abandoned.

[Posteritatis]

58. A lot get driven out

"Doctrinal disputes" and the like resulting in expulsion from the congregation. FLDS compounds tend to cause populations of "lost boys" in the towns nearby, who were given the boot for one reason or another, but are often inexplicably still loyal to the places.

The between-the-line reason is that mandatory polygyny just doesn't work with an equal number of males and females, so a good chunk of the former have to go or else be bachelors (which is a Bad Thing to the FLDS).

[mainer]

61. my evil mind is thinking male infanticide

Since there's supposedly a baby cemetery where large numbers of infants are buried. That, at least, has long been rumored.

[lolly]

66. Institutional Child Abuse

Someone named Jessop (can't remember her first name--and escapee from Jeffe's cult) detailed the abuse that even infants are subject to as discipline--infants who cry are hit repeatedly and/or held under water until they learn to stop crying.

Rather large potential for "accidental" death here. . .

[Posteritatis]

67. Ugh; hadn't considered that angle

A lot of the ones who survive (and, to be fair, I have no idea whether that's a fraction or just about every one that's been born) do end up expelled from the congregation, though.

[mainer]

72. Would like to see the M/F ratio of under-12 kids

because those boys would be too young to drive out yet. If there's a skewed ratio, then those boys are either dead ... or moved elsewhere.