Pa. senator says slavery would pass in a secret ballot

[flowomo]

Source: AP

By Associated Press, April 30, 2008

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — A state senator told a black pastor testifying at a committee hearing that, given the chance to cast secret ballots, his fellow legislators would vote to legalize slavery.
Sen. Vincent J. Fumo, D-Philadelphia, made the comments Tuesday during a hearing on a Republican-sponsored bill to amend the state Constitution to outlaw same-sex marriages and civil unions, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported on its Web site Wednesday.
“What you are advocating here is that we take away the rights of a minority. And I don’t think that’s right,” Fumo, a staunch defender of gay rights, told the witness, Gilbert Coleman Jr., senior pastor of Freedom Christian Bible Fellowship in Philadelphia.
He added, “If we introduced a bill on slavery, it might pass. That doesn’t make it right.”
Coleman, who was testifying in favor of the measure, responded: “I doubt that sir.”
“Oh, don’t bet on it in this General Assembly,” Fumo countered. “I know some people up here, especially on a secret ballot, it would be almost unanimous.”

Read more: http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2008/04/30/news/state/doc4818b70a217b1614356024.txt

[lapfog_1]

1. Hopefully he was being sarcastic...

otherwise... :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Joanne98]

6. I don't think so. K&R

[IndianaGreen]

26. I fear that there is a lot of truth in that statement

Back in 1964, segregationist George Wallace got 40 percent of the vote in the Indiana Democratic primary when he ran against Lyndon Johnson. I have no illusions about the closet bigots in our midst.

[rfranklin]

35. How about if white middle-aged Republicans are enslaved?

Why not?

[crikkett]

103. aren't they already?

to their mortgages and car notes and the Capital One Visa...

[bluerum]

65. Closet?

[LynneSin]

39. Vincent Fumo?

:rofl:

That guy is serious. He's a bit of an asshole too but he is a strong defender of gay-rights.

Go figure

[Divine Discontent]

78. he's not joking at all

if FL, where I'm at, could have secret ballots by legislators to round up 'homosexshals' and 'coloreds', to protect our women and children - I believe it could pass here. Heck, the populace has no problem voting against minority rights all the time.

[wmbrew0206]

108. That is BS...

I don't know what part of Florida you are in but I have never heard anyone ever suggest that would/or should be slavery reinstated in Florida.

I've heard right wingers complain about "needless laws for equal protection" at the same time swear up and down that we need to protect the "sanctity of marriage". I think it is BS to say we don't need laws to protect a minority but we need laws to protect against them. However, claiming that Floridians would allow their representatives to bring back slavery is just as bad and untrue.

[Glorfindel]

2. Good for him! Someone needs to slap these "Christian" bigots

upside the head. How would he like it if people tried to keep black pastors from marrying?

[BigDaddy44]

77. Christian bigots and slavery?

You can rightly accuse Christian bigots of holding up same sex marriage, but if I recall, it was Christians who led the abolitionist movement in the 19th century. Therefore, to say that they would therefore vote to reinstitute slavery is a bit of hyperbolic.

[eShirl]

101. there were also Christians who used the bible to justify slavery. n/t

[crikkett]

104. the country was founded by slave-owning christians

and slave-owning naturalists in the case of Jackson.

[derby378]

107. You forget that PA was founded by abolitionist Quakers

Why do you think it's called Pennsylvania???

[crikkett]

111. I know better than you think, and Wm. Penn owned Slaves.

So did many Quakers.

[derby378]

112. I knew there was a brief period when the first Quakers owned slaves...

...but I didn't know the practice had endured for quite that long. My bad.

[crikkett]

113. It's all good

:hug:

[redqueen]

117. Christians are not a homogenous entity. There are all kinds.

And back then, there were the kinds that fought against slavery, and the kind that used the bible as their justification for saying it was OK with God, so they should be allowed to own slaves.

[yardwork]

3. He made a very good point.

As a gay person, it sickens me to see people try to take away the very few rights and protections I have. Folks need to be reminded that gay rights are human rights.

[JerseygirlCT]

5. Yes. Constitutions, state or federal, were never intended as ways

to take away individual rights. And allowing people to believe they are "saving marriage" is absurd.

This is, pure and simply, an issue of human rights.

[navarth]

4. personally, I would like to own some neocon Repigs

put 'em to work!

[drmeow]

8. oh, oh, can I own Cheney?

I could find some nice work for him to do :evilgrin:

[Voice for Peace]

11. LOLOL I was thinking along the same lines...

[Canuckistanian]

88. I'd like to see Rummy mowing my lawn

And if he asked me how much I wanted cut, I'd answer, "The area around the house, and east, west, south and north somewhat. ..."

[Pale Blue Dot]

7. He's right. On a secret ballot, it WOULD pass.

Most of PA is EXTREMELY conservative, especially on race.

[AlinPA]

10. I live here, I know, a lot of PA is racist.

[JaneQPublic]

24. When I traveled there, I was amazed by the number of confederate flags.

I was in the Johnstown area, and they were on trucks, flying on houses. I had to ask if folks in that area know they're north of the Mason Dixon line.

[unpossibles]

73. I see that in Ohio too

more than I'd like to. Always makes me chuckle and wonder if those idiots know their geography. They'll claim they are just being a "rebel" yet I don't buy it. And if they are being honest, then I think they could come up with a more original way of being "different".

[Zhade]

33. ...which makes Obama's closing of the gap and narrow loss all the more impressive.

NT!

[goclark]

63. Absolutely!

[jwirr]

53. I find that extremely sad - this state once was a strong base for the

Underground Railroad and Union troops in the Civil War. How times have changed.

[gateley]

9. Wow. K&R nt

[bean fidhleir]

12. Good man, that. And he's right - slavery *would* pass, if the voting were secret

That should be obvious just by looking at how politicians treat the rest of us right now.

[reggie the dog]

15. Slavery

would not be racially based the next time around. They would just enslave all the working class.

[uberllama42]

31. From the standpoint of the owning class, there were good reasons for slavery to be based on race

It created a division between poor whites and poor blacks, which made the oppressors that much more secure in their power. The same tactic was employed during the early years of the labor movement. Sam Gompers and the AFL made deals with robber barons to exclude unskilled blacks from the movement.

Really, there is no need to bring slavery back. The capitalist system is better off with a bunch of willing consumers, so taking away the property rights of a large group of people doesn't make much sense. The working class is more or less powerless already; they don't need to be legally declared chattel.

[darue]

41. yeah, why would they want all the externalities of owning a slave?

much cheaper to just pay minimum and let the fuckers fend for themselves as far as food/housing/health. if one drops or under preforms, just fire and hire the next sucker. that's how it's done over much of the world today. ALL BECAUSE worker protections and unionization got left out of the trade deals. thanks to both sides of our political party.

[heliarc]

13. Good to see a representative with balls on this issue. nt

[TomInTib]

14. Brava!, Senator Fumo!

It's about time someone put this in a perspective that the homophobes can understand.

And what is the deal with these black preachers and their anti-gay bent? Hell, don't they know how many people in their communities are on the down-low?

[DWilliamsamh]

46. Um... that would be Bravo

[TomInTib]

50. Not in Italian.

And the guy's name sounded Italian to me.

"Bravo!" is for bullfights.

"Brava!" is for opera.

But I will take bullfights over opera, any day.

[uberllama42]

52. I thought 'bravo' was the masculine form

and 'brava' was the feminine, used to praise female opera singers after an impressive aria. Unless I'm mistaken, the proper accolade for a male in any performance is 'bravo.'

[TomInTib]

60. You're right.

I guess I better stay outta Eye-talian bars before I get in a heap of trouble.

[DWilliamsamh]

61. Not a huge deal but that was my point. Thanks. (EOM)

[Dave From Canada]

71. You're point was idiotic. You cannot legitimately equate slavery with homophobia.

There's a huge difference. And if you can't see that, then the American education system is worse then I thought.

[Richard Steele]

84. Speaking of "idiotic": what the fuck are you even talking about? Replying to imaginary posts?

What? :shrug:

[Glorfindel]

91. Um...obviously, you can't distinguish between "you're" and "your"

So what does that say about the Canadian education system? :hi:

[DWilliamsamh]

109. WTF are you talking about?

You might want to check which post you are responding to ... along with your spelling and vocabulary.

[The Wizard]

16. Slavery

is one of those traditional values the publicans are working to restore.
The irony is Abraham Lincoln, the president who abolished slavery was the first Republican president.

[primavera]

85. Hear, hear!

Frankly, I think it has less to do with race than with class - I think rich Repukes would be just as happy to enslave white people as black people, just as long as they get to continue reaping 90% of the rewards of other people's labor without having to offer anything in return.

[The Wizard]

100. British philosopher

Thomas Carlyle said he couldn't understand the American Civil War as the South wanted to own their slaves while the North wanted to rent them by the hour.
With the downward pressure on the job market, slavery isn't a matter of if, but when it's recognized for what it is. The engine that was one of the building blocks of the middle class, organized labor, was eviscerated by Reagan. The race to the bottom continues. Without a manufacturing base good jobs and the hope for a better future become more elusive. The GOP has turned the American dream into a fascist nightmare. The Republican masters will be happy when everyone is making the same low pay. Now that's communism. And none of us will have any boot straps to pull ourselves up by.
With rigged elections and diminishing living standards, insurrection can't be too far off.

[immoderate]

116. So right! Conscripted slavery has been replaced with "volunteer" slavery.

--IMM

[drm604]

17. This bill is an electoral maneuver.

If it passes the state House and Senate, then it would be on the ballot in November. It's a maneuver to get the religious right out to the polls.

[natrat]

18. if it were a secret ballot in congress 95% republican and 50% dems-- thats how fucked they are

[rfranklin]

37. 145%???? Now those are Diebold numbers...

That's Republican math for you!

[Blue_Tires]

19. hell, i'd be scared what congress would approve with a completely closed ballot

[pleah]

20. K&R

I'm sure Mr. Fumo is telling the truth. And good for him for bringing out in the light.

[coriolis]

21. Pennsylvania sure as hell isn't the only place that could happen.

A lot of DUers live in a rose-colored world, as I've noticed.

[truedelphi]

22. They "would pass a bill to legalize slavery" F'g A!

They already have.

it is called "work"

And with most of the good paying jobs overseas or already possessed by those who will need to hold on to them amid the floundering seas of this rotten economy, we are all wage slaves.

Illegal immigration and HB 1 visas further the descent into hell. My one friend who is an American born gardener gave up trying to keep up with the complexities of employment laws, but around him, other foremen from other countries who pick up their employees off the street corners and pay them
$ 3.50 (or less) an hour seem to be doing okay.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. I lived in Central PA for many years

I'm not convinced that he's wrong.

[LynneSin]

40. Hell I came from Perry County

I don't even think you'd need a secret ballot where I grew up at

:cry:

[coriolis]

25. Gilbert Coleman: Black preacher with this attitude: "I got mine, fuck the faggots"

:grr:

[Deep13]

29. pretty much

Black voters (generally speaking) are a core D.-voting block. Unfortunately, as a group they are more fundamental in religion than a random sampling of voters and much more so than a random sampling of D. voters. I think that goes a long way toward detering D. politicians from endorsing gay rights openly.

[coriolis]

30. I know there are black Republicans...and there are gay Republicans, but

I wonder if there are any black, gay ones. :eyes:

Aw, shit, who am I kidding...there must be...2 or 3.

[Deep13]

36. Yeah, at least three Black, gay, Republicans.

Wow, they won't be accepted in any group!

[mitchum]

56. Well, Armstrong Williams is certainly a black, gay republican

[coriolis]

57. He's gay? News to me. I have heard his daughter is, though.

:shrug:

[mitchtv]

95. Isn't that Alan Keyes' daughter

Williams' too?

[coriolis]

121. Oh! Yes you're right...I had them confused.

I guess if you've seen one asshole...


;-)

[mitchtv]

98. Is that true? or is it a typical DU slur

"everyone we despise is Gay"?

[mitchum]

105. Well, there was the harassment suit w/a former male employee...

that Williams settled out of court.
Also, in "Blinded By The Right", Brock relates the tale of being waylaid with some forcible tongue kissing by an unnamed columnist. However, he gives enough details that one can figure out just who is that unnamed columnist.

More indicative of typical collaborator behavior than a "typical DU slur"

[mitchtv]

120. News to me, but thanks

I see now he is "sexually suspect". That's why I asked

I thought it was another one of these
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Zhade]

34. Heh, I read that as GARY Coleman.

:p

[Ned_Devine]

83. I think that you are thinking of...

...that crazy guy that ran against Obama in 2004. Can't remember his name, but he ran for pres. in 2000

[mitchtv]

92. pretty much correct, Gilbert

Unfortunately that attitude is common here on DU also

[uberllama42]

27. I seriously doubt a majority of the Leg would vote for it

20%, 25%, no doubt. But I have a hard time swallowing "almost unanimous." There are plenty of racists here, but I'm pretty sure Fumo is exaggerating.

[coriolis]

32. Boy, some of you guys really do live in an insular fairy-tale world.

Amazing.

[uberllama42]

51. Excuse me for being skeptical.

This is a very emotional issue, and while I admire Sen. Fumo for the work he is doing in opposing a horrible proposal, but I still think he is being hyperbolic. I find it hard to believe that forty-some of the other legislators in that chamber are tacit supporters of slavery. I'm not denying that there is racism in this state; I know that it is a problem, and as I said I have no doubt that a handful of people would make that vote (and get re-elected in November), but not everyone who is a racist necessarily wants to bring back slavery. If Fumo had said a racist voter ID law would pass here, I could see that. But I'm not convinced that slavery would have that kind of support.

I just don't think racism would manifest itself in that way. I'm not saying that racism is acceptable, but in my judgment it's really unlikely to take the form of support for slavery.

[atreides1]

62. Nothing wrong with being skeptical

But I would be inclined to go with the senator's belief, after all he does know his fellow legislators a little better then you might.

[yardwork]

44. Well, he did specify "anonymous vote."

His point is that this country should protect the rights of minorities. It's not just "majority rule." His point is that if it were just "majority rule," then the Civil Rights Movement laws would never have been passed, and a majority of legislators in some places might even still approve of slavery.

His point is correct. It's absolutely on target.

[DWilliamsamh]

49. Wrong... Fumo may be a jerk but he KNOWS the Leg.

Pennsylvania has one of the highest totals of hate groups in the country. You don't seriously think some of those folks aren't in the state government do you?

[Deep13]

28. I have a hard time thinking a slavery bill could pass.

I know there is racism in this country, but it isn't THAT bad.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. we know about sweatshops across the world and we dont care

so why would this be any different?

i think human callousness is vastly underestimated

[Chulanowa]

43. "Across the world"?

We have them in US territories and holdings, for crying out loud. No need to get any more exotic than Guam, Puerto Rico, or the Marina Islands. Or for that matter, anywhere in the states that uses immigrant labor.

Slavery's advanced with industry, is all.

[LynneSin]

45. Seriously - Sweatshops and illegal immigrants are the slavery of today

I mean perhaps this time around we're giving these people a pittiance of a salary but we're still making outrageous demands of long hours in grueling conditions with no care for the welfare of a person. If that isn't slavery I don't know what is.

This country has been built and maintained on the backs of cheap forced immigrant labor whether the slaves picking cotton, chinese building our roads & rail system or illegal immigrants from Mexico picking our fruit and cleaning out our houses.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. exactly, we will do whatever it is that we can get away with.

[BearSquirrel2]

72. Chinese outsourcing ...

Chinese outsourcing is the slavery. All those folks we're sending jobs to ... just remember they can't vote. And if they protest, they'll get thumped in the head or shot or imprisoned than executed.

Chinese outsourcing was plotted as the "ultimate solution" to the American labor problem. A deep pool of repressed poverty which you can barter domestic labor rates against.

[LynneSin]

42. What I don't get is a Black Pastor advocating taking away the rights from another minority group

How fucked is that?

The Civil Rights movement does not stop at COLOR. It doesn't not stop at NATIONALITY, RELIGION, RACE or CREED either. Civil Rights INCLUDES Sexual Preference.

Vincent Fumo is a bit of an ass but I'm glad he said what he said. I realize this paster of color does not represent all African Americans but this isn't the first time I've seen an African American Pastor speak out against the GLBT community. I mean, what makes the civil rights of African Americans any more special or important that those who are homosexuals?

WHen I get involved with civil rights - it's for all people. As a woman, I've always been there for my equal rights and I would never deny another group their equal rights too.

[Toasterlad]

122. Please, Please, PLEASE...

Don't say "Preference".

It's "Orientation".

Thank you. :hi:

[petepillow]

48. From everything I've seen and know from both the Philly and Pitt regions of PA

There's one reason and one reason only that Clinton took PA. It ain't the issues, lets put it that way. I have family in both, and I visit them often. Both sets of populations, while quite different from each other have one very nasty thing in common. I've been saying this for weeks to my wife and co-workers, so it's vindicating to see this thread because you know it isn't too far from the truth. PA would surprise most of the country, I think.

[PittPoliSci]

55. the washington post did a really nasty piece on clinton voters in the mon valley

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/21/AR2008042102794.html

it's awful to say that the good news is that the fucking morons are a dying breed, and young pittsburghers, like myself, are quite a bit more enlightened. Pennsylvania has a very old population, and as result, there will be a switch in voter demography in the near future.

[petepillow]

89. funny how they slipped the "racial component" during the last couple sentences

as if it was a side note, when it's kind of obvious what they're driving at during the whole article. Why do they feel they need to do that?

[happyslug]

94. Greene, Washington, Fayette and Westmoreland are traditional Democratic Counties.

If you go back 2 years, they were SOLID Democratic Counties, they still tend to support Democrats more then Republicans but as people who came of age during the Great Depression and WWII, their children tended to vote more Republican (yes, Western PA has had a slow but steady increase in people who vote GOP over the last 20 years. Bush is thought to have done the best ever in getting barely 50% of the vote in Greene County in 2004 (with some accusation of vote tampering, and not by the Democrats).

Now the swing to the GOP has appeared to have ended, and more people are voting Democratic even in Western Pennsylvania. These groups tend to be conservative Democrats on social Issues, but progressive Democrats on Economic Issues. The Civil Rights movement caused some problems, but the union leadership basically told union members that division by race was designed to help the bosses NOT the working class. Thus the people of Western Pennsylvania, while not in the vanguard of the Civil Rights Movement, supported Civil Rights as one less weapon to be used against them as members of the Working Class.

Just a comment on how things have changed over the last 20 to 40 years in Western Pennsylvania. The dieing off of the people who came of age 1930-1945 and replacement by the "middle" generation, people born that time period and came of age in the 1950s (i.e. the pre-boomers) and the early baby boomers (pre-baby boom peak of 1957). These 1930-1957 age group are hitting 70 years of age and starting to die off. These will be slow, for the US had a baby-burst from 1927-1947 (The Great Depression, which for rural communities started in 1927, till the start of the Baby boom in 1947). The important year is 1947 plus 70, 2017. The Depression baby busters started to die off about 1997 (when they hit 70), We are about to get into the WWII baby burst (I.e. lack of Children born during WWII do to the fact most men of fathering age were overseas fighting Nazis). 1940 plus 70 is 2010. Thus you will see a slow change over the next few years. It will accelerate in 2017 when the first baby-boomers hit 70. and continue till 2027 when the peak year for baby-boomers hit 70.

My point is any change will be very slow, much slower then the growth of the GOP in Western Pennsylvania over the last 30 years (tied in with the Peak baby boomers hitting age 30, i.e. 1987, 30 being the time people buy their first home, and get involved in Politics. These Baby-boomer tool Western Pennsylvania to the Right, starting in Collage (1977 when peak year boomers turned 20) and accelerating till 1994, when the final year baby boomers turned 30 (the final year of the Baby-Boom is considered 1964, births had slowly dropped from its peak in 1957, but in 1965 you had a severe drop in births and thus 1964 is considered the last year of the Baby-boom).

Just a comment that the people who are dieing NOW, are the most Democratic group of the people over age 30. The people who are the most GOP, will be next, but it will be a slow transition given the Baby burst of 1927-1947. The early half of that group remember the Depression, the later half just the stories, but both voted Democratic do to what happen in the Great Depression. The switch to the Right occurred as the baby-boomers came of age. The early boomers were effected by the Vietnam War (They were the soldiers in it) but as you near the peak year for baby boomers to enter Collage and be draft age, the draft was gone (The Draft was for all practical purposes abolished in 1972, three years before people born in the peak year of the baby boom, 1957, turned 18 in 1975). Thus the years before and After Peak, the baby-boomers did NOT have to worry about the Draft, and thus could turn to the right and reject their parent's observations about the right and the Great Depression.

Today, many post-boomers (born between 1964-1972) and Echo-boomers (i.e. Children of boomers, generally born when their parents turned about 25, thus roughly those born between 1972 till 1999). Marketers have tried ot break these down into even smaller sections (As marketers do of the Baby boom itself is dividing the baby booms into Early Boomers, 1947-1955 Peak Boomer, 1955-1960 and Late Boomers, 1960-1964). Early boomers (In Western Pa anyway) tend to be like their parents, Conservative Social Democrats, Progressive economic Democrats. Peak and late boomers tend to be more GOP (i.e. not only conservative Socially, but Economically). Just more observation that the Generation that is the most GOP, will NOT start to die out for quite some time. The groups next to die out tend to be more Democratic than the Peak and Late Boomers, so I have to disagree with your observation that as people die off, Western Pa will become more Liberal. It will be the push from the left of the young that will drive the Area to the Left, not the die off of the old (Not until about 2025 when the Peak Boomers start to die off, we have a long way to go before that date).

[PittPoliSci]

102. westmoreland county is turning red.

thanks to richard mellon scaife's tribune review.

people think that they're rich in westmoreland county. the delusion is quite sad.

[happyslug]

106. That is more a result of suburbanization of Westmoreland than the old folks.

Westmoreland is the latest "East end" of Pittsburgh. The GOP has always had a pull in the East End of the city, then Winkinsburg (Which they abandoned in the 1950s) then Plum Borough and now the Western Parts of Westmoreland County. In the old coal patches the Democratic Party still rules supreme, but with more and more Suburbanites since the 1950s it ha slowly turned GOP.

Now Mellon-Scaife publishes his Tribune-Review in Greensburg, the County Seat of Westmoreland County, it has apparently never made money, nor outsell the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette even in Westmoreland County. My comment is the Tribune-Review has had little if any affect on making Westmoreland GOP, the big affect has been the movement of Republicans into the latest Suburbs of Pittsburgh which happen to be in Westmoreland County.

The same goes for Peter's Township in Washington County, Pittsburgh Republican Suburbanites moving into Peters making Washington County more GOP more a factor then then traditional Democrats moving out of the Mon Vally. Cranberry in Butler County is similar, but Butler County, where Cranberry is located, has always been more GOP then Allegheny County, and has become more GOP do to the expansion of Suburbs into that part of Butler County. Until the 1990s, most suburban expansion was in Allegheny County, since about 1990, you have seen more and more expansion into the neighboring Counties, something that happen to Philadelphia right after WWII. Suburbs have always been more GOP then the inner city (Since the Great Depression, we have to remember before the 1920s Pittsburgh was a GOP island in a Democratic part of the State) or Rural Western Pennsylvania (More to do with the Coal miners voting their economic interests. Western Pennsylvania industrial strength was NOT only in Pittsburgh and the Mon Valley but throughout the Southwest part of the State, including most of the rural areas of Western Pennsylvania given the Coal mines, and other rural industries).

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

54. slavery in the 21st century?

wow...

I found this http://www.newint.org/issue337/facts.htm

[Butch350]

58. Why Am I Not Surprised???!!!

!.

[GreenTea]

59. Get fucking real sweetie pies they mean YOU....You think they do not?

Republicans corporate ideology is that all, (including all of our taxes) is meant only for the rich & corporations....not the workers....Are you a worker or unemployed... the slavery they want is you....Not just the stereo-type most are thinking of....Blacks, Browns, etc...

The republican ideology hates unions, despises having to pay workers wages and salaries...they hate paying for health insurance, minimum wage, vacation pay, sick pay, a 40 hour week and eight hour day, over-time, pensions.

Most are so blind they don't even realize they are the ones whom the republicans and the rich and their corporations would love to have as slaves...no back talk...just work until you die, for their profit, gain and lifestyle, the "elite" republican pigs!

Republican ideology certainly doesn't want to be accountable to the common man, the worker or the environment...it's ALL theirs for the taking and their pleasure...with no regulations nor accountability ever!

The military is already close to slavery, they'd love it if it was forcible for all of us, complete slavery to enhance their world fascism & imperialism....It's no different than from any other slavery based empire in past centuries!

We are ALL just peasants in their eyes...you doubt this?

[Mosaic]

68. Well said

Whites are slaves just as much as blacks in Bush world. Elect McCain it'll get 10 times worse.

[crimsonblue]

64. Ah... hyperbole...

one of my favorites. She goes well with a glass of vintage red wine and the oppression of my Mexican "servants".

[laylah]

66. JFC! What the HELL

are we regressing to? FUCK! :puke:

[BlooInBloo]

67. Slavery wouldn't. Jim Crow would.

[mitchtv]

93. right to work, no health insurance,private schools

no social security/Medicare, voter pic Id. No fly lists! Who needs ownership papers? there might be liability with title.

[debbierlus]

69. Truth is harsh, but it is the only well. Tell it Senator....

Even up here in 'liberal' Massachusetts, I know some town folks who wouldn't object.

And, they would pass laws for wives as property as well.

[Mosaic]

70. The idea is unthinkable.

Anybody who would vote for slavery should have their citizenship revoked.

[dbmk]

74. Isn't debating whether it is actually true..

..completely besides the point?

[booley]

75. That seems reasonable to me

Whether some might find it offensive or not is not relevant.

If slavery had been up to a popular vote, it would still be around.

While many don't like "linking" the black civi rights movement to gay rights, the fact is they and ALL civil rights are the same: the quest for equality.

and a minority doesn't' get that equality by asking the majority if it's ok for them to have it.

[eridani]

76. An econ prof I once knew wrote a very funny parody advocating reintroducing slavery

He decided not to publish it because he was afraid it would be taken seriously.

[Papagoose]

79. Fumo is a corrupt hack

but he is dead right about this.

[JPZenger]

87. He is charged with over 100 Federal felony counts

Fumo finally decided a couple months ago to not run for re-election. He is the most foul-mouthed person in PA. He personally is very rich, and used to control a bank.

His 5 story mansion in Philadelphia is worth several million dollars, but is only taxed for 1/20th its value. When questions arose, the City said they lost all of his tax files. He also owns a farm.

He is charged with over 100 Felony counts by the Feds for corruption.

He pressured Verizon to secretly provide millions of dollars to create a slush fund that he personally controlled.

[happyslug]

96. That's the Fumo I have read of, takes care of Number 1, first and always.

Extensive reports from the Philadelphia Inquirer on Fumo:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/special/fumo/

Other sources on Fumo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Fumo
http://inquirer.philly.com/rss/News/2007fumopressrelease.pdf

An article about Fumo temper and a Helicopter:
http://www.citypaper.net/articles/041797/article005.shtml

http://www.youngphillypolitics.com/vince_fumo_whats_worse_being_crook

If you want to read the actual indictment:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/pae/News/Pr/2007/feb/Fumoind.pdf

[LynneSin]

114. Fumo is an ass but he is 110% right about this

An African-American Pastor supressing the rights of gays & lesbians is about as hypocritical as it gets. African-Americans are not the only people who have suffered thru the generations with no civil rights, how dare this pastor do the same to another group of people.

Civil Rights is for everyone - nuff said!

[bossy22]

80. wow

they are really thinking of amending the PA constituion to ban gay marraige........................................................................................................

[uberllama42]

90. It's already illegal here, so the amendment is just enshrining

the state statute into the constitution. They're putting up another hurdle between our state and equal rights. If you ask me, the Fourteenth Amendment prevents such things, as it is denying a certain group equal protection of the laws. Of course the argument from conservatives will be that it doesn't refer to homosexuals as a class, so it's not intended to deny them equal protection.

Meanwhile, budget negotiations just started for FY 2009. Those assholes are constitutionally required to pass a budget in the next 31 days, and as far as I know they have never done so in less time than that. Yet they are wasting our time (and picking up a very generous salary from us) while they debate a constitutional amendment which is both redundant and bigoted.

[Divine Discontent]

81. for the few that always seem to misinterpret comments - he's AGAINST slavery

a few people are thinking he's for it. he's saying that it would pass b/c his fellow legislators are a bunch of bigots. That's an amazing comment by him. Wow! I thank him for standing up for the rights of all!

[bluesmail]

82. 'They're just a bunch of white supremecists pretending

to be religious' Kurt Vonnegut

[hokies4ever]

86. The REAL problem is making marriage a religious event

when it has so many legal consequences in our secular society. I think the proper compromise right now is to make it illegal to ban civil unions and ban any legislation that would provide any legal differences between civil unions and marriages. That'll keep the religious right from claiming some kind of moral sanctimonious love of the word 'marriage' and provide the legal rights to gay couples. The obvious drawback of this is that the anti gay marriage people will hire lawyers to work overtime to find loopholes, but it would be a good start.

[happyslug]

99. I hate to say this, but I suspect all the push for "Gay Marriage" is to attack marriage itself.

They is a group, not only in the PA, but in the US who want to outlaw marriage. They know they is majority support for marriage, so they are looking into things to attack this support. Gay marriage is such an attack. This cabal know the Gay community would like to have the same rights a married couple have when it comes to getting off work, inheritance etc and will fight for gay marriage. The cabal (Lack of a better name, it is not a conspiracy, but a group of people who think alike) see gay marriage as an attack on the whole concept of marriage, and this a way to attack it.

Now the anti-marriage Cabal, see marriage as an impediment to how they want to live. They want to be able to establish a relationship with someone (Generally a woman, for most of the Cabal are straight) but be able to dissolve it at any time and the "spouse" would NOT be entitled to anything earned by a member of the Cabal. No spousal Support, no Alimony, no division of Marital property. If the spouse did NOT plan for herself, that is her tough luck not the person she lived with for ten, twenty or fifty years.

The Cabal is willing to accept a duty to support children till they turn 18 (the limit in Pennsylvania, there is no legal right to support from your parents even to go to collage, even if both parents went to collage, this is a recent development in PA law, developed in the 1990s overturning 50 years of court ruling saying collage graduates had a duty to support their children in Collage).

I just see Gay Marriage as another step into making Marriage a voluntary contract, that either party can get out of with minimal costs and keeping all you technically earned (even if that earning was based on the fact you had a wife to take care of your children and to do errands for you while you "earned" your income).

I see attacks on Marriage not only from the Right (Where the concept that "I earned my money and it should be All MINE, no matter how much my spouse put into the relationship" is strong) to the left, who want to be able to have sex without the spouse objecting (i.e getting a divorce AND a division of property because someone could not keep his pants on, and she did not want to catch what he might pick up).

While I see attacks, no one is advocating abolishing marriages, for such a position will upset not only the people who OPPOSE Gay Marriages, but people who want Gay Marriages (i.e. abolish marriage, thus NO rights to inherit, or get off work do to death or sickness of spouse or spouse's family). My concern is that this cabal sees Gay Marriage as the first step in destroying our concept of marriage (i.e. two people living as one, that can NOT be dissolved without protecting BOTH), to something else (i.e. two people who live together as two separate people). Maybe I have had to deal with to many dissolution of such live in relationships (Almost all of them Heterosexual, NOT Homosexual) and trying to resolve the problems of such a break up without being able to go to divorce court. When two people live together most of what they use day to day becomes jointly owned, the courts even recognize this IN A MARRIAGE (and sometimes outside of Marriage). The Courts are use to handling breakup of such relationships. Gay Marriages will NOT be that much of an additional problem for them, but if abolish marriages, the Courts will NO longer be able to "Equitably" divide the property of the couple, each person in the marriage would get what they paid for. In most cases you have a dependent spouse who would get NOTHING in such a situation, that is my greatest fear, and what I believe members of the Cabal want (Through I should note, it is a Cabal, because to be a conspiracy the members would have to talk, and talk would reveal the shear stupid of abolishing Marriage, but a cabal, just people thinking alike but NOT talking about it, avoids any discussion about the problems abolishing marriage would do, thus it is a cabal, people who think alike, not a Conspiracy, which is people who work together).

[AlphaCentauri]

97. truth hurts

[Vidar]

110. More anecdotal evidence that we really need another revolution.

[nichomachus]

115. Secret Ballot? Nonsense

Give the corporate media three months to flog this issue and they wouldn't even need a secret ballot to pass it. The media can create any reality it wants.

Just look at this idiotic kerfuffle over Rev. Wright. What a colossal waste of time, words, airtime, and energy over a non-issue. People huff and puff and run around like their hair is on fire pretending that it means anything at all. Anyone who spends more than 10 second even worrying about this is just stupid.

Look the freak around. Gas prices through the roof. People going bankrupt. People losing their homes. Joblessness on the increase. Food shortages. Hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered by Bush

and we're worried about what some over-the-top minister said. Who the fuck cares -- except the dimwits trying to make it a political issue.

[barnel]

118. well, they support H-1b, dont they

he might be right

[NoGOPZone]

119. I've lived in PA, and I wouldn't take a bet against what he said.

Not for even money, anyway.