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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 01:43 PM
Original message
Indian software industry targets US outsourcing Bill
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040124/tech_india_usa_3.html

<snip>

BANGALORE, Jan 24 (Reuters) - India's software industry association on Saturday criticised a United States Senate bill that imposes curbs on overseas outsourcing of government business, calling it an attack on free trade.

"We are dismayed to learn about the Bill in the U.S. Senate that restricts offshoring of work contracted by the U.S. government," Kiran Karnik, president of the National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM), said in a statement.

Indian newspapers prominently displayed on their front pages the passage in the U.S. Senate on Thursday a federal spending bill, which includes clauses restricting outsourcing.
...
"Such a Bill is not in keeping with the increasing globalisation of trade, which benefits all countries, and is contrary to the spirit of free trade being promoted by the World Trade Organisation and long espoused by the United States," the statement said.


</snip>

What a mess this "free trade" has become!

s_m




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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Benefits? You mean cheap stuff at Walmart's?
That is so not good enough.
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JM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. The mess isn't free trade, it is stupid congresscritters
These boneheads cited a shortage of technical workers available for Y2K work, so they pass laws allowing L1 and H1B visas but don't sunshine the laws out or base them on US unemployment numbers. Brilliant. Then the new jobs proposal from King George...Let's just train even more people for jobs that aren't there. Equally brilliant.

Hard to blame a system when the cretins in charge act like Barney Fife with a loaded pistol.

JM
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fuck india
And fuck every politician who whores our jobs out overseas.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm feelin ya
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Give 'em fake American names, teach 'em fake American accents
The Paul O'Neill 60 Minutes episode also featured a segment on how businesses in India are giving their workers fake American names and teaching them fake American accents to "fool" U.S. callers on help lines who are too stupid to know that they've dialed directly into downtown Bangalore.

The workers who were interviewed about their "names" and one of the "instructors" had a big, hearty belly laugh over all of this. The instructor would say words and phrases and say "how do WE say it?" and the class would respond. Then he'd say "how would THEY say it?" The class would respond with their best exaggerated "Yankee" accent and a good time would then be had by all.

Bigotry is a two way street. In this politically correct hell we call "the year 2004," with India sucking up U.S. jobs like an anteater on crack and laughing all the way to the bank with their 10-cents-on-a-dollar wages, let's remember that. I have a feeling that there are still areas in the U.S. where Indian ridicule might not be met with the warmest response.

Lou Dobbs recently featured a story on a $500 a head "How To Outsource" seminar in which one company was celebrated and given an award for "Best Transparent Outsourcing." There will be an "end point" for all of this.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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shirlden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Shucks and by golly,
The RNC outsourced their cold call activities for donations to India. So, if the RNC does it.....then it is OK, right??
Red blooded patriotic Merikans, everyone of those RW critters.

:argh:

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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. You got it right, Bush_Eats_Beef
The state of Washington, where I live, was recently "outed" for outsourcing some fiscal jobs to India. The head of the dept. defended it by saying he was saving the state taxpayers money.

He got shut down very quickly! We need jobs here, not a few cents or even dollars saved by shipping our scarce employment opportunites to another country.

If we give them our jobs, will they pay our unemployment and Medicaid benefits?

s_m
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justjones Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. I saw that too.....
If it's all fine and dandy that these jobs are being outsourced, why the hell do the workers have to talk with "American" accents??? Could it be that if most Americans find out their jobs are being outsourced to India, there might be a backlash.......
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Backlash?
Like what? Violence against Indians and other South Asians?

Ahhh..Let's go back to that time in the '80s when imports were vandalized and Asian Americans were beaten (like the Chinese man in Detroit who was mistaken for being a "jap")...

It's amazing how tolerant liberals and progressives can be. I understand being angry at American jobs being lost but the world is competetive...and corporations are greedy. This isn't anything new.
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justjones Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. No, no, no....
That's not what I was implying AT ALL. Violence against anyone, least of all Indians and/or South Asians, was not something that entered my mind...in fact, I would be the first person to stand up to defend someone against such bigotry.

I was talking about boycotting companies, people demanding these companies don't receive tax breaks that companies whose workforce remains the U.S. receive, etc....the backlash I was thinking of was against the greedy corporations, moreover, this whole notion of globalization, not against Indians or any other workers who are just trying to make it like I am.

So, no, that's not what I was talking about.



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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Thanks for clarifying..
In times of high unemployment usually scapegoats are created and are easy targets...and at this time South Asians are perfect, being they look like "A-rabs"...

Plus, I've seen a few posts which seemed to misplaced the blame and puts it on Indians and other foreigners.





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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. How about the ultimate backlash...
and re-elect anyone who voted to protect or promote outsourcing and free trade? Let's get someone in there who will reverse this.
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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Who said anything about corporations, fujiyama?
We are talking about government jobs here.

If there is no difference between government and corporate obligations to workers, in your mind, then let's talk about that.
Just be clear what we are talking about.

s_m

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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Senator Judy Robson (Wisconsin) and the "American Jobs Act"
I first learned of the government outsourcing issue through the efforts of Senator Judy Robson of Wisconsin (thanks to CNN's Lou Dobbs). Food stamps have been replaced in Wisconsin by a "debit card" that gets swiped through a card reader, like an ATM card. Wisconsin-ites who call the program's 800 number for information or the status of their accounts are patched to the support center in India. These are Wiconsin government jobs, not corporate.

For Senator Robson, this was unconscionable. Here is her Web Site:
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/sen15/news/

There are many articles on her site which provide an excellent framework for the SPECIFIC and FOCUSED issue being addressed here.

A direct link on her site to the debit card ("Quest Card") issue:
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/sen15/news/inthenews/2004/pr2004-001.htm

And a link which covers Lou Dobbs' praise of her efforts to keep Wisconsin jobs in Wisconsin: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/sen15/news/inthenews/pr2003-110.htm

Finally, a quote from the the Senator (from the URL above):

"I realize that using a subcontractor in India reduces the cost to Citicorp, which reduces the cost to the State of Wisconsin. However, I believe that the benefits of employing Wisconsin residents to provide customer service to their fellow Wisconsin residents outweighs the relatively small savings to taxpayers. Wisconsin workers spend their income in Wisconsin. Their income helps them support their families, pay their taxes, contribute to charities, and support the local and state economy."

"Several lawmakers in Wisconsin are outraged by this betrayal,” Dobbs said. “And we want to on this broadcast compliment State Senator Judith Robson. She’s urging the state to require customer service jobs for food stamp recipients be located in the state of Wisconsin. And Governor Jim Doyle agrees. He says the only way he’ll renew the state’s contract with Citigroup is if those jobs are returned to the United States. Ironically, it was the Department of Workforce Development, under a previous administration, that negotiated the contract. Yes, that’s the same department in charge of finding work for unemployed residents of the state of Wisconsin."
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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Thanks, Bush_Eats_Beef
I will send this to my state legislators!!


s_m:evilgrin:

s_m
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Valjean Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. TAX international communications

Put some hefty taxes on international communications. This will slow a lot of the "intellectual" outsourcing.

Resurrecting our manufacturing base can be accomplished by high tariffs from nations with shitty standards of living.

The US needs to institute a foriegn minimum wage. Countries meeting the standard would have lower tariffs.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. But it's still something we must change. n/t
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. surprising from someone who has a Clark avatar...
lest we forget: Wes Clark said, "let them do the software in India."

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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Do you agree
Edited on Sat Jan-24-04 07:22 PM by are_we_united_yet
With every single issue of the candidate you support? Hmmmmm?

Oh I didn't think so.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. Clark on H1-B, Globalism, and Made in America
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 09:56 AM by gulliver
http://abby.forclark.com/story/2003/12/31/17032/961

<snip>

From the VFW pancake breakfast in Nashua, NH, broadcast on CSPAN (12/20/03)

Question: I'd like to know your philosophy surrounding globalism and what you'll do with H1-B visas and also the dramatic amount of offshore outsourcing.

General Clark: Yeah, I'm very concerned about it. You know- the issue is globalism - H1-B visas are the visas that are given to these very smart, computer literate experts from the Indian Institute of Technology who come into the country. They often work at reduced wages to the native... to American citizens, and then they leave and they take back their skills, and they take back what they've learned here and start businesses at home. And, what's happened is, is that we- we took advantage of an explosion in trade opening, technology, improved communications, the fall of the Iron Curtain and so forth in the 1990's. And it brought an immediate surge of prosperity to the United States. But we didn't understand the full dimensions of what we were dealing with. In the 19th century, when we began to develop railroads, first they were developed in Britain. And then the British invested in America. And of course to build railroads you have to have steel and to have steel you have to dig up iron ore and you have to... and so it...it was a 30 year process to industrialize America. Started before the Civil War, really picked up speed after the Civil War... by the turn of the Century we were the greatest power in the world, but it took 30 years.

A hundred years ago the Brits were asking themselves, "What happened? We, We - Britain - We were the leaders in the industrial age and now America and even Germany has overtaken us in Steel production. And we're no longer the greatest industrial power." And they paid for it.

What we didn't understand is with the knowledge industry it doesn't take 30 years. You don't have to build blast furnaces and Bessimer converters and open pit iron mines. All you have to have is a telephone wire, and a laptop computer, and you simply bring it in and work. And so it's meant an export of software jobs and service industry jobs things like telephone calling and other things that have migrated overseas at an astonishingly rapid rate. And that's what's happening to America. Not only cheap Chinese manufacturing, but also the software stuff.

So here's what I will do. In the first place, I believe in 'Buy American'- not only hardware, but software. Everything that's associated with national security we will procure in the United States. (APPLAUSE) Our financial industry, our utility industries, virtually every aspect of American life is controlled in some way by information technology. And we simply can't afford to have that developed abroad in other countries, because you can't tell what's in it. It works but you don't know whether it's got these so called trap doors and other things that could sabotage it at some point. So the essential stuff is, buy American hardware and software. We need to relook the H1-B visa. I'm all in favor of bringing people into this country, but only at fully competitive wage rates. (APPLAUSE) Not bringing people in to take jobs from Americans. (APPLAUSE continuing) And when they come here, I'd like them to stay and become American citizens... I met a man in Manchester the other day from India, he's a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology, he came here, started a software company, married an American woman, they're running a serires of Nursing Homes - I congratulate him. It's the American dream. It's a success story. And we're glad to have him. So we want 'em to come but we want them to stay and be with us and put that creativity to work here and keep it in our economy.

And I will also remove all the business incentives that will let companies profit, taxwise or otherwise, from outsourcing jobs or moving their headquarters abroad. (APPLAUSE). We're not gonna keep America safe and we're not gonna make ourselves prosperous by walling off America from the outside world. But trade and markets exist to help people. They're not gods... you don't worship them... you dont let them go and do whatever they want. They have to be regulated, they have to be made fair, they have to be made transparent, people have to have information to participate in them. We're going to ask every company that outsources jobs to report it so that as Americans we know which companies are preparing to outsource jobs, and we're going to provide incentives for companies who want to keep jobs and expand jobs in America. We're going to protect American employment (APPLAUSE). (Person asking question nods head).

In Berlin New Hampshire a man in the Paper Mill said to me, he said, "You know I'm really worried" he said, "You know we got a hundred and twenty people laid off here. We're working through Christmas we're working 12 hour days but we don't know if we're going to have our jobs after Christmas. We're under foreign competition, we just don't know what's happening," he said, "And this country can't live if it doesn't produce things - it can't just buy Chinese manufactured goods." And he's exactly right, and I promise you (APPLAUSE) I promise you as president of the United States, we'll put America back to work and we will produce - we won't just service, we will produce- and we'll make the finest products in the world in everything from energy technology, to environmental technology, to new automobiles, to battery chips, generators, software, hardware, jet planes and whatever else there is, and we'll be proud to see on our products, Made in the USA.(APPLAUSE)
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Valjean Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Wow - I'm impressed

Wow, I'm impressed. Next someone will ask him if government should go all Linux and hill start spouting the merits of open source ;-)


He's hit all the points as far as goals. I like that he looks at this from a national defense standpoint. If we rely on China for manufacturing we're allowing them to put our balls in a vice.


He needs to get a bit more specific though. Our trade policy is held hostage by WTO right now. We're even required to allow those 65,000 H-1Bs every year by treaty. We MUST withdraw from NAFTA and WTO in order to accomplish ANY of the things he's outlined.

I always wonder if some of the contenders back away from this issue because they fear they won't get the $$$$ from corporate contributors. Clinton kinda played both sides of the aisle. He was pro-big business and helped get us in this mess.

Kucinich is the only one with the balls (or nothing to lose) to renounce WTO and NAFTA. This issue is finally starting to buzz. The front runner who embraces abolishment of NAFTA and WTO FIRST will take the nomination. The beauty is that Bush CANNOT counter since he is the BITCH of big-business.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I Gather
That includes electronics and clothes and food and.....

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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. What the FUCK does India have to do with anything.
Wake the fuck up
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. Fuck India?
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 12:29 AM by fujiyama
Who's fault is this? Indians need jobs too...and if American corporations go there, know who to blame!
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Valjean Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Don't forget that Bill ...

Don't forget that Bill Clinton got snookered (or betrayed us) on this deal as well.
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rolodomo Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Contract U.S. government functions to India?
Edited on Sat Jan-24-04 02:06 PM by rolodomo
Would AWOL elite force aviator really do this? That's like surrending U.S. soveigntry to another country. I wonder if the administration supports this? Could be an excellent campaign issue.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Last I heard...
the call center for foodstamps was in India.

Oh, the irony!

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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Also for unemployment benefits in Illinois.
They used an Indian call center for that too. Or Job training I think it might have been.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Benefits all countries?
Edited on Sat Jan-24-04 06:28 PM by NYC
How does it benefit American workers to send their jobs to India? How does it benefit the United States as a country to have unemployed Americans?

Excerpt: "Such a Bill is not in keeping with the increasing globalisation of trade, which benefits all countries..."
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The normal spin on this is...
"...providing cheap labor increases profits for U.S. companies. The Indian workers have a job, so India wins. The U.S. companies can post higher earnings, so they win. That stimulates the economy and the people who already own the 99% of the wealth will invest in the stock market and that stimulation will create jobs so "everybody" at the end of the outsourcing pipe wins. Everybody wins. Please stop saying bad things about outsourcing."

We've already seen the holiday shopping numbers posted. Tiffany Jewelers had a 14% spike. Neiman Marcus offered 30 BMWs on their Web Site that they sold in SEVEN MINUTES.

What's the problem? We're coming out of a recession. We're on a rebound.

(Yes, Virginia, this is sarcasm...please, no flames)...:-)

The Bush response to the unemployed Americans is that they need to learn the "necessary skills" to "keep up" with the "changing global economy."

His definition of the fields that are expanding are healthcare and the service sector. If your education is outside of those sectors, shut the hell up and get back to class. If you have built a career outside of those sectors because they do not appeal to you, then you have identified yourself as one of the Americans not willing to take a job, so we will bring someone from Mexico or China or India or the friggin' RAINFOREST to do the job while you go find a nice, warm overpass to live under.

The compassion of our President is global and knows no borders.

He's going to match willing workers with open positions and screw anyone who gets in his way. He's got a job re-training program that will, if you caught Wesley Clark's recent calculation of the dollar amount, comes to FIFTEEN dollars per unemployed worker...as Clark puts it, "bus fare to the training center, lunch, and a cup of coffee."

:nuke: :puke: :nuke:
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Avalon Sparks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. I had to check on the Nieman BMW's...
That sounded so wild. I found a site that said it was 50 not 30 BMW's in 7 minutes.

http://www.bmwworld.com/media/03_neiman_marcus.htm

Unbelievable - the superwealthy are the only ones that benefit during Bushies economy. It'd be different if sales were up at the same ratio for middle class and discount stores, but they weren't up hardly at all.

Good post - that's EXACTLY how they're going to spin it.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. learn the "necessary skills"
I just retrained within the last five to seven years and I am obsolete again. I can't afford to dish out 35 to 40 grand every five years when the same company (Oracle) is training in India for one tenth of the price.

(Oracle outsources their jobs there too.)
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't see any jobs coming here from India
So how is that trade?
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. Excellent Point. How can it be TRADE if it all goes one way?
n/t
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Valjean Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Prairie Home Companion Spoof

Garrison Keiler interviewed "Dubabya" as a Prairie Home Companion bit.

Among George's proposal was an insistence that we MUST stop to proliferation of ENGLISH. If we stop English from spreading, they can't take our jobs ;-)

Garrison commented that The Chimp's English seems to have improved ;-)

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wasn't that great? Garrison Keiler is priceless
Edited on Sat Jan-24-04 08:53 PM by 0007
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. India -Pakistan peace is the key. to outsourcing...
India is good for outsourcing for as long as they are at peace with Pakistan. Remember a few years back, they almost got it on at the India-Pakistan border and even today their peace is still dicey. Corporate USA tried to help maintain the peace the last go round, but I think there is a limit to how long/how many times they can keep that up.

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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Again, I have to say... corporate is not government
Do we want out state and federal government jobs outsourced to other countries?

That's my question.

s_m

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