Even His Mom Wonders Why Lieberman 'Didn't Catch On' | LA Times

[Ediacara]

January 26, 2004

THE NATION

Even His Mom Wonders Why Lieberman 'Didn't Catch On'
New Hampshire seemed like a perfect match for the no-frills Connecticut senator, but polls show him on the fringes and with little momentum.

By John M. Glionna, Times Staff Writer

NASHUA, N.H. — Resting in a wheelchair as her son finished a speech at City Hall here Saturday night, 89-year-old Marcia Lieberman shook her head and gave that worried look that only a mother can give.

The U.S. senator from Connecticut vying for the Democratic presidential nomination was the kind of boy who brought struggling students home from school for tutoring. At 61, he still calls his mother every night from the campaign trail, no matter where it takes him.

So why, she wonders, isn't her Joseph faring any better in his presidential quest?

"He's such a good man," she said softly. "I don't know why he didn't catch on."

More at the Los Angeles Times

[Stuckinthebush]

1. Perhaps because he is Republcan lite?

That would explain it since this is the Democratic Primary.

[dolstein]

6. Perhaps because faux-Dems who don't know his record call him Repub lite?

NT

[reprobate]

18. There you go again. Attacking dems. Stop it, dolstein.

[w4rma]

39. Just like Lieberman which, IMHO, is the reason that he is losing. (n/t)

[Stuckinthebush]

25. Is he your horse in this race, dolstein?

His record is pretty damn right of center, wouldn't you agree?

Here is a guy who had a hard time finding anything bad to say about Mr. Bush regarding Iraq or Terrorism, now I'm supposed to believe that he represents Democrats well?

His constant harping on morals and god doesn't play well with many Democrats who desire a split between secular and religious.

Lieberman's constant harping on "Hollywood" seems very Republican lite to many Democrats:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A44110-2003Dec7¬Found=true


Lieberman doesn't believe that Democrats should run to the left. He believes that we need to move more to the right - or what he calls the "center". So we should abandon our time honored principles and move to the "center" to meet him. Sounds pretty Republican lite to me:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A11748-2003Aug18¬Found=true


Lieberman does not support gay marriage
Lieberman supports Star Wars
Lieberman is a consistent advocate for military tribunals for "enemy combatants"
Lieberman supports the Patriot Act
Lieberman supports the Death Penalty
Lieberman supported No Child Left Behind
Lieberman supported (and still supports) the 87 billion blank check to Bush

But, dolstein, he does have some progressive traits:

He voted against the partial birth abortion ban
He supports the repeal of Don't ask Don't tell
He voted against Bush's tax cut package

So, when you add the two lists together, you get Republican lite.

So, if you are a moderate, why would you vote for Lieberman? If you like his supportive GOP votes and stances, then go for the real deal - Bush. If you like his few progressive traits, then you have many other true progressive candidates to vote for who are the total package.

Oh, and re-think who you call "faux-Dems" around here. Because one doesn't like Joe certainly doesn't make them a "faux-Dem". More accurately, it makes them a strong Dem who resents the hell out of the constant rightward move made by spineless Dem representatives in congress.

[dolstein]

63. I have given money to Lieberman and Edwards

Joe Lieberman may be closer to the center than the average Democratic primary voter, but when you look at the electorate as a whole, he’s still solidly left of center, and he’s well within the mainstream of the Democratic Party.

He’s liberal on social issues, a moderate on economic issues and a hawk on foreign policy. In other words, he’s a JFK Democrat -- not to mention a Clinton Democrat. Remember Bill Clinton? If you think that Lieberman is “pretty damn right of center,” then surely you must feel the same way about Clinton, no? Lieberman is the candidate whose positions are closest to Bill Clinton’s.

And by the way, since when does voting for the Patriot Act make you “right of center”? After all, ninety-nine senators voted for the Patriot Act. Democrats also overwhelmingly voted for the Leave No Child Behind Act. Do you think that Ted Kennedy is “right of center”? He voted for both of these laws. And sorry, supporting the death penalty doesn’t make you right of center. Most Americans support the death penalty. Even ultraliberals like Kerry and Dean support the death penalty in certain cases.

With all due respect, DU’ers such as yourself do not represent the center of American politics. And for that matter, neither do I -- I’m still pretty far to the left, though not nearly as close to the fringe as the typical DU’er.

[The Zanti Regent]

66. Liberman Left of center?

Well, if Sharon is what you consider the center, guess you're right...

[Blitz]

67. What does Sharon have to do with Lieberman

Or the Democratic Primary or the American political spectrum?

[dolstein]

70. Pssst: They're both J-E-W-I-S-H

And honestly, isn't that enough?

Man, I wish this guy had posted earlier, back when a certain DU'er was suggesting that my anti-Semitism claims were entirely unfounded.

[Ediacara]

71. THEN ALERT THE POST

If you really think that's anti-Semitic (and really it's a little iffy, but sure, I'll give you it's a little bit of an odd comparison) THEN USE THE FREAKING ALERT FUNCTION!

[dolstein]

72. Why?

As bad as antisemitic posts are, I think they serve a useful purpose. The remind the rest of us that these sentiments do indeed exist. Honestly, what is to be gained by alerting the administrator? All that will happen is that the post will get deleted -- "swept under the rug" so to speak -- thereby allowing people to sanctimoniously claim that antisemitism simply doesn't exist around here.

[Ediacara]

73. It will bring potentially egregious behavior to the attention of admin

And if the mods and admin agree with your assessment could result in the poster being banned. Contrary to what you may believe, the job of the mods is not to simply tidy the board up by removing posts.

And I am not saying that that particular poster will (or even should) get banned, but alerting egregiously anti-Semitic (or racist or homophobic or sexist etc) posts will alert the admins and moderators (who cannot be everywhere at once) to the poster, and will make them review said poster's past posts.

I understand your disagreement with post removal, but IMHO the admins are right to do it simply because if inflamitory posts were left up, there would be 700 equally inflamitory "WTF is this!?" responses. Removed posts are kept track of by admin, and now there is a post removal inventory system to keep even better track.

Like I have said before, the admins and mods take anti-Semitism, racism, sexism and homophobia very seriously, and if you cross the line, your ass will be kicked off DU so fast you won't know what happened.

If you really do believe that there are certain serial anti-Semites (or racists, homophobes, sexists, etc) on DU alert the crap out of their posts, PM the mods and admin, but keep at it.

The attitude you're taking: that nothing gets done so why bother alerting, is just wrong. Believe me man, every alert is taken seriously, so please, if you see anti-Semitism (or racism, sexism, homophobia or any other behavior unbecoming of a progressive) alert the post and follow up on it.

EDIT: to clarify the front end of this post

[dolstein]

68. FYI -- Lieberman is an American politician, not an Israeli politician

I know that many DU'ers have a hard time distinguishing the two. Believe it or not, Lieberman does NOT have a hotline to the Knesset in his Senate office.

And on the American political spectrum, Lieberman's left of center. Sure, he's further to the right than the typical DU'ers, but then again, so are most Americans.

[Kinkistyle]

75. I'd vote for Clark over Lieberman if he were of Israeli descent.

Based on Clark's principles and platform. But based on Lie-berman's, I wouldn't vote for him if were a Black China-born Palestinian who went to school in London and cut his teeth in politics in Germany.

In other words, RACE AND RELIGION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY DISLIKE OF LIE-BERMAN. His name could be Christian Christofferson and I'd still cringe everytime I heard his two-timing voice.

[Zhade]

28. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's the funniest fucking thing I've heard all day!

Lieberman wants to out-Bush Bush, and Dems who recognize this are "faux"? Please.

[wtmusic]

2. One thing you have to say about Joe

He's not a fair-weather candidate. He's more consistent on positions than any other candidate.

Misguided though he may be.

[dolstein]

7. Yeah, his support for civil rights, abortion rights, gay rights . . .

gun control, the environment, making the income tax more progressive, campaign finance reform . . . . all misguided. So terribly misguided.

[Skidmore]

11. Perhaps he should start bringing his rhetoric more in line

with his voting record then--and drop the support of the pre-emptive war policy.

[shamanstar]

21. war rights...

the list goes on and on.

[Zhade]

29. His support for civil rights, huh?

Yeah, he marched during the Civil Rights movement. And I applaud him for that.

But answer me this: just where in the hell was Lieberman during the 2000 presidential campaign, when 97,000+ mostly-black Democratic voters in Florida had their voting rights illegally taken away?

You'd think that'd be a double-whammy for Lieberman, as both a supporter of civil rights and as a candidate who would be directly affected by this illegal purge.

So, put up or shut up: what did Lieberman do about this violation of civil rights?

[Forkboy]

43. I want to hear this answer

so :kick:

[dolstein]

58. Well, according to reports

Lieberman was sitting in the same strategy sessions as Al Gore and his top campaign advisors, and was advocating a much more aggressive legal strategy than the campaign ultimately adopted.

You can choose to believe that or not (I suspect you'll choose not to), but regardless, I fail to see how you can pin the blame on Joe Lieberman for the failings of hundreds of Democratic elected and party officials throughout the state of Florida who failed to anticipate the problems that occurred on election day. And I suppose you'll also blame Lieberman for the NAACP's decision to settle it's voting rights lawsuit as well. After all, what's a little scapegoating where Joe Lieberman is concerned, eh?

[beyurslf]

3. Maybe he didn't catch on because he is running the wrong party's primary.

[dolstein]

8. Yeah, the GOP is just dying to nominate a pro-abortion rights,

pro-civil rights, pro-gay rights, pro-environment, pro-gun control, pro-repeal of tax cuts for the wealthy candidate.

[Poseidon]

31. Dolstein,

Giuliani is for every single one of those things except repeals of tax cuts. Lieberman's record lines up with the record of a liberal Republican. For christ's sake, Lowell Weicker was more liberal than him in the 1988 race. Lieberman favored welfare reform, deregulation of telecom, and this criminal war. When will Lieberman apologize for killing 500 of my brothers? That's what I want to know, Dolstein.

[dolstein]

42. Rudy Giuliani is not representative of the Republican Party

He'll quickly find that out if he ever chooses to seek national office.

The fact is, there is only ONE Republican in the U.S. Senate whose record lines up with Lieberman, and that is Lincoln Chafee, who is the most liberal Republican senator by a wide margin. And even he has a more conservative voting record than Lieberman on certain issues.

Perhaps you simply aren't aware of Joe Lieberman's voting record. Relatively few DU'ers are. But that's your problem, not mine. The fact is, Lieberman is closer to the Democratic mainstream than Dennis Kucinich, who is WAAAAAAAAY to the left of party on most issues and WAAAAAAAAY to the right on certain others (namely, abortion). And he's at least as close to the Democratic mainstream as John Kerry, who's actually among the most liberal Democrats in the senate (more liberal than even Ted Kennedy). But hey, if it makes you feel better, you can go ahead and call Lieberman a Republican. Just remember that saying it doesn't make it so.

Oh, and will you demand an apology from John Kerry and John Edwards?

[Poseidon]

45. No, I will not, Dolstein

You know why I won't? Because if Kerry or Edwards had been president, we would have not gone into Iraq. It has been Lieberman's mission since the early 90s, to get rid of Saddam, much as it has been Perle's mission, and Wolfowitz's mission. I am VERY aware of Lieberman's record. I am aware that he had a 20 ACU rating this past year. I am aware that he voted to reform rules on personal bankruptcy, which was a terrible vote! I am not calling Lieberman a Republican. I am simply saying that he is a centrist Democrat. And don't distort Kucinich's views on abortion. He has repudiated his past votes and is now fully pro-choice.

[bleedingheart]

4. While he has a good voting record I can not forget that he

cozied up to Bush right after the election to push through the faith based stuff with Santorum...

Then he voted for the war and bashed other Democrats...

[dolstein]

9. How can you not forget something that never happened?

Lieberman broke with the administration over their faith based initiative. He ended up backing a bi-partisan proposal.

Sorry, nice try.

Oh, and were you aware that most Democrats in the Senate voted for the war resolution? Funny, isn't it, how Lieberman's the one who gets singled out.

And yeah, anti-war Democrats like Dean NEVER bashed fellow Democrats, right?

[Ediacara]

13. You might remember

The Rose Garden photo op with Lieberman (and Gephardt) grinning ear to ear. He's a principled man, but when it REALLY counts, his principles are out of line with what THIS Dem (and obviously MOST DUers) needs.

I DON'T need him acting like "dad" telling me how holy he is. I don't need him scolding President Clinton. I don't need him telling me how good the Iraq war was. I don't need him LOSING the Vice Presidential debate on GAY ISSUES to DICK FUCKING CHENEY!

[dolstein]

15. So you'd rather have

George Bush bankrupting the federal government in order to reward his wealthy contributors?

Fine. If Lieberman's religous faith and his position on Iraq are so offensive to you that you couldn't vote for him over Bush, then just say so. I just don't understand why so many DU'ers feel the need to misrepresent Lieberman's positions on so many issues.

[Ediacara]

16. Your dichotomy is nonsense

Yes, I would rather have Lieberman in charge than have Bush ruin the government.

BUT

There are six other candidates I would prefer in charge rather than Lieberman and about 600 non-candidates I would prefer after those six.

Stop building up a strawman in an attempt to paint me as an anti-Semite. It hasn't worked the other 400 times you've tried, and it won't happen now.

If you're having trouble understanding why Lieberman is disliked, why don't you stop being the blindfolded defender, and READ what people have to say.

And he DID lose the VP debate to Cheney on gay issues.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

79. That Jew-Lover!!

Your post in short.

[wtmusic]

17. I'll tell you why Lieberman gets a bad rap

Because Lieberman throws the first punch. He also has probably been the most negative campaigner, and it turns a lot of people off. 'Holy Joe' has a lot less to do with his faith than his 'holier than thou' attitude.

[dolstein]

27. The only problem with that argument

is that people were trashing Joe Lieberman long before he even got into the presidential race. The fact is that Lieberman is the most reviled Democrat among the DU community. More than Miller, who has actually endorsed Bush for reelection. More than Max Baucus, who helped sheperd through the Bush tax cuts. More than the dozen or so other Democrats who voted for the tax cuts. More than Gephardt, the lead sponsor of the House war resolution.

I wouldn't expect many DU'ers to be thrilled with Lieberman. After all, Lieberman's a hawk, whereas DU'ers are overwhelmingly doves. And the doves have been trying to kick the hawks out of the party since 1968. But if you look at his voting record on social issues, it is unquestionably liberal. And his voting record on economic issues isn't all that different than John Kerry, who's also a free trader and has supported some tax cuts for business and investment.

But the attacks on Lieberman go well beyond anything that could be justified based on his record alone.

[Ediacara]

46. I see you're not responding to my posts again...

But there are a lot of huge differences between Baucus and Lieberman

1) Connecticut voters won't throw Lieberman out if he's a little more liberal, while Montana voters might send Max packing; so people cut a centrist senator from a somewhat conservative state more slack than a centrist senator from a pretty damned liberal state.

2) Max Baucus is generally a good guy that doesn't tell other Democrats how bad they are, Lieberman is generally a good guy who takes every opportunity to show you how bad his fellow democrats are.

3) Max Baucus doesn't preach about the evils of video games and Hollywood, nor is he boosom buddies with right-wing moralists, while Lieberman is.

ON EDIT: You're wrong about Miller btw. Miller is the most hated Dem on DU, the reason that it's not much of an issue is that Miller is a) a senile old coot b) not running for president c) not running for reelection and d) not in the news anymore.

[bleedingheart]

19. I will also add that he did very poorly when debating Cheney

how about that...I am entitled to my opinion....

and like it or not Holy Joe got that nickname because he does favor using government to push "morality" issues... for example he does like to fuss over the "bad" influence of hollywood...

[bleedingheart]

20. Why did he even try to link arms with them over any faith-based

initiative.. I am against any faith-based initiative whether a Dem or a Repub comes up with it....

Also...in regard to the war vote...this thread is about Lieberman..not Kerry and Edwards but I don't like their war votes either.

[Occulus]

12. Actually,

it's his stance on video games- of all things- that's the dealbreaker for me.

I grew up on the things. Every violent, bloody game imaginable.

I've thrown exactly one punch in my life.

There's no causal relationship between video games and youthful vuilence, but that's not stopping him. Never mind that he doesn't play 'em anyway.

[sventvkg]

5. so when does Joe quit????????

[dolstein]

10. I dunno -- when does Howard quit?

NT

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

22. I think Howard should quit when..

Joe stops whoring for the accounting industry (IE Arthur Andersen), cozying up to neo fascists like Lynne Cheney in order to make us more "patriotic" and maybe even stop behaving like he belongs to the likud wing of the democratic party. At that point I say "Dr Dean get the f____ out.

[AntiCoup2K4]

47. January 20, 2012 at 9:00 AM (eastern)

That's when Howard will quit.

[Ediacara]

48. you mean 2013?

The election will be in Nov 2012, and the next president will be sworn in on 20 Jan 2013.

[markses]

23. I'm gonna throw a party when Lieberman quits

His sanctimonious finger-wagging sends me into bursts of laughter. What a douche he is.

[loudsue]

14. His mom probably shouldn't have said that....

That's not the kind of image ANY candidate would want his mom to portray while he's on the campaign trail....whether it's true or not. It's a downer.

While I'm NOT a Lieberman fan, I feel for his campaign after this little "throw in the towel" remark from his own mother.

It sure didn't do his campaign justice.

:kick:

Edited for lousy sentence structure....

[rman]

24. He didn't catch on to

the fact that the toppling of the Saddam statue was a folly, very much unlike the fall of the Berlin Wall to which it was compared by the likes of Rumsfeld.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

[CookieD]

26. I wish this forum were more tolerant of moderate Dems ...

Watching dolstein get picked on because he dares to defend (gasp!) Joe Lieberman (gasp!) is very distressing. Lieberman was our 2000 VP nominee and is a near political clone to Bill Clinton. You know I love DU but sometimes the shrill Dean/Kucinich voices make me wonder how much different we are from the intolerant dim-wits over at freerepublic.

They allow moderate discussion on the DNC weblog, democrats.us, and the various campaign blogs. I'll keep coming back to DU but I really wish some of the people here would be a bit more tolerant of the full spectrum of the party.

OK, you can attack me now as well ...

:shrug:

[Isere]

49. Tolerance is not a characteristic of this forum

There are a few voices that speak up from time to time, bu they are always shouted down, as is evident here. Soon Lieberman will have to leave the race and when this occurs you can expect wild exclamations of joy. I wonder who will become the new punching bag of choice when that happens?

Dolstein makes a valiant effort to correct the misrepresentations of Lieberman's record. Does anyone pay attention? Here, is a "fact check" from http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/attack/6608.php which gives some further detail on what seems to me to be a very decent record:

Fact check: The League of Conservation Voters gives Lieberman a 93 percent ranking, second-highest among the Democratic contenders rated. (John Kerry was first at 96 percent.) Lieberman has been a frequent critic of Bush administration efforts to dilute environmental protections. He voted against allowing drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and against efforts to weaken the Clean Air Act. He voted in favor of requiring more fuel-efficient vehicles and a number of National Forest protective measures and sponsored the Clean Energy Act, which seeks to limit industrial pollutants.
 
Lieberman is a long-time advocate of abortion rights, but ran into some controversy recently when he said medical advances could cause the courts to revisit how long into a pregnancy that right can be exercised. That not withstanding, he still gets high marks from NARAL Pro-Choice America and Planned Parenthood Action Fund.
 
Lieberman was active in the 1960s civil rights movement. He voted to make it easier for workers to sue an employer for discrimination and to expand the definition of a hate crime, and against repealing the 10 percent federal set-aside for women- and minority-headed firms on road projects.
 
He voted for a law prohibiting job discrimination against gays, but also supported a law prohibiting gay marriages.
 
While the League of United Latin American Citizens gave him a national award in 2002 for his role in expanding educational opportunities for Hispanics, a bill he co-sponsored with Republican Sen. John McCain to limit greenhouse gases has been criticized as a threat to Hispanics' jobs.
 
He has consistently supported anti-terror measures, co-sponsoring the 1991 Gulf War resolution and backing a 2002 resolution giving the president authority to use military force to remove Saddam Hussein if diplomacy failed. He also supported the president's request for $87 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan and the law giving the government sweeping powers to investigate the domestic terrorism threat.
 
While a proposed tax cut is a centerpiece of his campaign and he has a reputation for supporting tax cuts, he gets low marks from the National Taxpayers Union and the National Tax Limitation Committee for voting against a number of large Republican-sponsored tax cuts and other measures in recent years.
 
In 1999 he opposed a 10-year, $792 billion cut, saying it was premature. In 2001 he opposed the Bush tax cut, favoring a more modest Democratic reduction instead, saying the Republican plan would hurt the economy. Last year he voted against a resolution aimed at cutting taxes by $350 billion over 11 years. He also voted against eliminating the estate tax.

[Ediacara]

51. DUers would listen to Dolstein more

If he didn't accuse DUers of being anti-Semites every chance he gets.

He's right, Lieberman gets a slightly worse reputation than is deserved, but if he wants to get his point across he needs to do two things:

1) Stop being the "blindfolded defender" and listen to what people are saying, rather than blindly responding with "ANTI-SEMITE!"

2) And speaking of that, stop accusing people of anti-Semitism just because they don't like Joe Lieberman!

[dolstein]

54. Let's get our facts straight, shall we?

First and foremost, I have never denied that DU'ers had legitimate reasons not to like Lieberman. After all, the typical DU is much, much more liberal than Lieberman is.

But at the same time, I fail to see why so many DU'ers have progressed beyond indifference, or subdued dislike, to outright visceral hatred of Lieberman. The fact of the matter is that Lieberman's voting record isn't markedly different from that of other Democrats. And even his hawkish tendencies aren't all THAT unusual -- several other high profile Democrats, including Dick Gephardt and Bill Clinton -- who have steadfastly supported the war in Iraq.

So there is clearly a double standard at work. Moreover, DU'ers routinely lie about Lieberman's record. He's been called pro-life. He's overwhelmingly pro-choice. He's been repeatedly criticized for supporting the Bush tax cuts. He opposed the Bush tax cuts. Despite the herculean efforts by me and a few others to correct the record, these same lies and distortions get repeated over and over again. And worst of all is the "Lieberman is a Republican" remark. That kind of remark is so completely beyond the pale for a purportedly Democratic discussion board, and so inconsitently with the factual record, yet it gets repeated ad nauseum.

So if we were having a rational discussion, where people were saying things like "Lieberman isn't liberal enough for my tastes" or "I disagree with Lieberman's position on the war," I'd take your comments seriously. But the attacks on Lieberman have long passed the point of rationality.

And let us not forget that there have been blatantly anti-semitic posts. Personally, I object to the administrator's policy of deleting these posts, because it allows people to blithely deny that such sentiments exist.

[Ediacara]

56. What posts?

What blatently anti-Semitic posts?

What blatently anti-Semitic posters?

Instead of ALERTING on these posts and people, you build up the anti-Semitism strawman again and again.

It's time to stop calling DUers who don't like Lieberman anti-Semites and discuss substantive points brought up by people who have legitimate reasons (be they overt moralising, the Rose Garden photo-op, his bad haircut WHATEVER).

[dolstein]

60. Well, since you didn't read my entire post

I will repeat the following sentence:

<<Personally, I object to the administrator's policy of deleting these posts, because it allows people to blithely deny that such sentiments exist.>>

If it were up to me, not only would these posts not be deleted, but the would be kept in their own separate archive.

[Ediacara]

61. As you've said before

You claim to know the names of several DU anti-Semites.

Are you keeping those names to yourself?

There's an alert feature in the lower left corner of every box here on DU. If you really think these people are anti-Semites, then you should ALERT them.

I know for a fact that the admins and mods don't take lightly accusations of anti-Semitism, and if you were to actually alert those people, then action would be taken.

So alert them, rather than bringing up the "there's something more" and "there's plenty of DU anti-Semites" memes.

[drewb]

83. the would be kept in their own separate archive (sic)

Big Brother IS Watching

That's part of PATRIOT ACT II...

[Isere]

55. Did you see him do that today? I didn't .

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it, but I don't come here all that often because it is frequently so hostile.

As for getting one's point across, you might do better yourself if you cut back on the caps and the barking tone (see post #13 for an example). Dean has done it and it seems to be working for him.

[Ediacara]

57. no, not today

You're right, Dolstein has cut down on accusing people of being anti-Semites recently, but it seems every time that a discussion of Lieberman comes up, unfounded accusations of anti-Semitism come up from the blindfolded Lieberman defenders.

And btw.... what caps are you refering to? The ocassional capitalization of words that deserve special emphasis? Would you prefer I use bold or italics instead? Sorry, it's fewer keystrokes to capitalize.....

[rman]

82. i'm picking on Lieberman, not Dolstein.

Why do you take this personal - on Dolstein's behalf no less.
Besides, this thing about the toppling Saddam statue being a folly is simply fact.
By using it in his campaign Lieberman is serving it up on a silver platter for progressives to make an issue out of it. It's almost as though he wants to undermine his own campaign.

[RememberTheCoup]

30. Pretty low reporting.

Lieberman's not my candidate, but I have to say it's pretty low of any reporter to take an offhand comment from the 89-year-old mother of a candidate and publish it in a big paper like this. The remark will undoubtedly hurt Lieberman as it suggests his campaign is hopeless at this point, and that may not at all have been the way Mrs. Lieberman intended it. She may not even be 100% "with it" for all we know. She is 89 years old, after all.

[sendero]

52. So what else is new.....

... the media have proven that the will (selectively) print anything that the think damages a Dem. Too bad it's backfiring on the Dean Scream :)

[LeighAnn]

32. Maybe because he's a warmonger? eom

[dolstein]

34. They called LBJ and Hubert Humphrey warmongers too

And gave us Richard Nixon.

Personally, I'd take a real Democrat like LBJ, Humphrey or Lieberman over limousine liberals like Dean and Kerry.

[Poseidon]

35. Bull

So Lieberman is more of a Democrat than Kerry? Since when is warmongering a Democratic value? Speaking as someone who has actually fought in 3 wars, dolstein, let me tell you something: WAR IS NOT FUN! People die, and people are dying in greater and greater numbers in Iraq currently. People might not want to talk about it, in fact the deaths and injuries have become so common that the networks don't even air some of them anymore. We're all too busy worrying about whether Ryan will marry Trista, or if Kobe Bryant is guilty or not. :eyes: KUCINICH IS A REAL DEMOCRAT. AND HE WON'T GET US INTO UNNECESSARY WARS EITHER.

[Blitz]

40. If Kucinich were a "real Democrat"

Perhaps more Democrats nationally would vote for him. Thus far, very, very few have. Tomorrow, far more real Democrats in New Hampshire will trudge through the snow to vote for Lieberman than to vote for Kucinich. Maybe those real Democrats should have a voice in who is and isn't a "real Democrat."

[bleedingheart]

38. I think FDR was a great guy and he probably

would qualify as a limousine liberal...

Personally I don't think people have to start out at a disadvantage in life to make them better democrats.

[dolstein]

41. He'd qualify as a warmonger too

He pushed the nation towards war with Japan and Germany. That's a fact. Indeed, some have argued that he either provoked Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor (by embargoing sales of oil to Japan) or buried intelligence about the planned attack.

The fact is that all of the Democratic presidents of the 20th Century, with the possible exception of Carter, were pretty hawkish on foreign policy. And even Cartner supported substantial increases in the defense budget. I don't know why it is that DU'ers think Lieberman's foreign policy positions are somehow outside the Democratic mainstream, since they are very much reflective of Democratic traditions.

[Az]

33. Lieberman lost me with his own words

Freedom Of Religion does not mean Freedom From Religion.

He said these very words while speaking in Detroit. I live there. I heard him say them. I know what he meant. And I disagree vehemently.

This is my hotbutton topic. He may as well set fire to the constitution. At least with George in office the people get to learn first hand the destruction of rights and freedoms under the banner of the Republicans. Under Joe the damage would continue but there would be no awakening of a galvanized people.

Joe is a corporate owned DLC DINO. He plays the religion card on a regular basis. He represents a greater danger to the left than George and Co do. He pulls us further to the right in a way the goes unnoticed. He weakens the left by keeping them silent in the back of the bus.

IMO the Democratic party is reeling from the blows landed on it by the right. They are organized, we are not. They have coherant battle plans, we have nothing. They contol the message, we follow blindly after their trail. Joe is the leader of that pack of blind and he needs to be cut loose.

[Arugula Latte]

36. Aside from all the substantive points already mentioned...

about Joe's sanctimonious finger-waving and Bush butt-kissing, let me add the following:

Joe didn't catch on, Mom, because, well, he is next to impossible to watch or listen to. The "eeeeeewwwwwwww" factor with Lieberman cannot be discounted. His voice is whiny yet lulling. He's dull as cold oatmeal. Frankly, he gives me the willies.

[sendero]

53. I've said that since day one

You have to have *some* charisma to lead people. You have to have a commanding or at least not irritating voice and physically look like a leader.

Lieberman has none of these qualities. Perhaps in the days before TV and radio he'd have had a chance, I don't know. I don't worry about him though, becuase I have as good a chance of getting the nomination as he does :)

On another note, I think it is possible that Joe is maligned here on DU more than he deserves. He's not *that* bad on the issues. But that one issue that many if not most of us cannot get past is the hawkish stance on Iraq. The war was simply unjustifiable on any level, and I've heard little contrition for his part in it.

And for a crude analogy, you can be a great all-around guy, but if you screw your best friend's wife don't expect him to consider you a friend. Joe's just not our friend, regardless of his good voting record on some issues.

[jenk]

37. Not even Liebermom can kick start Liebermania

[Lisa]

44. Ow! That's gotta hurt ...

Poor Joe. What next -- his rabbi is endorsing Dean?

[Isere]

50. Is that supposed to be funny?

If so, it falls far short of the mark.

[Lisa]

59. just noting that his mom wasn't exactly lavish with the praise!

I mean, first Al Gore doesn't endorse him (and the two of them were friends for years before the 2000 election). And then his mom doesn't go all-out ...

I envisioned various other family, friends, and associates trying to be polite, so as not to hurt his feelings.

Luckily Senator Lieberman has a sense of humor!

p.s. a few days back, somebody commented on a thread about Canadian PM Paul Martin that the one thing you mustn't do is admit there is any truth to a controversial claim. And ... well, the Senator's mom sounds like a total sweetheart, and it isn't her fault that the reporters ambushed her this way ... but agreeing that he "hadn't caught on" would of course be the headline quote. Personally I find her honesty endearing, though Lieberman's campaign manager is probably biting his cell phone in half right now!

[Blitz]

65. Yes!! Let's not forget that Lieberman is a JEW

Mustn't forget that!! Rabbi jokes. Funny stuff! You must be proud of yourself.

[FredScuttle]

62. Sen. Joe Lieberman....

the candidate only a mother could love.

[Isere]

64. Only a mother could love....?

Oh, you must have forgotten about all the Connecticut voters who have stood by him all those years.
And maybe you forgot about all those who voted for his ticket in 2000? And maybe you were one of them?....

Oh, well.

[flaminbats]

69. his mother is the one who should be running...

:thumbsup: If she were my mother, I'd hire her as my top campaign consultant!

[goforit]

74. Jon Stewart had a clip of his moment of ZEN: Lieberman was talking and

people in the sub shop weren't even paying attention.

His wife looked totally distressed over the lack of respect
for her hubby.

Well that's show business!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikehiggins]

78. Because his time is past and he should gracefully fade away

like Dick Gephardt.

Or be shown the door.

[Blitz]

80. As opposed to Clark

Who's time in American politics never was and never will be.

[Cat Atomic]

81. He certainly "caught on" with Sean Hannity and Fox News.

[Gore1FL]

84. Seems to me pretty obvious

He seems to be running against the liberal agenda more than he is running aginst bush.

I mean an ad showing the statue of Hussein toppled?

"Vote fo me, because I agree with Bush on most issues" is a really stupid strategy.

Whether intended or not, that is how it comes off.

That strategy, or appearence in 2002 is what pushed a lot of seats into the Republican category.

[Moderator]

85. Okay.

This thread has been going on 24 hours now, and I think that's a fair amount of time to give to everyone who wanted to flame those who disagree with them. It's no longer breaking news, it's just an argument about one of the democratic candidates, and unfortunately people like to make it personal. Please visit the GD2004 forum to continue such discussion. Thanks.