Study: That Neanderthal was not your grandfather | CNN

[Ediacara]

Study: That Neanderthal was not your grandfather

Monday, January 26, 2004 Posted: 6:08 PM EST (2308 GMT)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- You may think your grandparents act like Neanderthals, but U.S. researchers said on Monday they had strong evidence that modern humans are not descended from them.

A computer analysis of the skulls of modern humans, Neanderthals, monkeys and apes shows that we are substantially different, physically, from those early humans.

New York University paleoanthropologist Katerina Harvati said Neanderthals should be considered a separate species from Homo sapiens, and not just a sub-species.

"We interpret the evidence presented here as supporting the view that Neanderthals represent an extinct human species and therefore refute the regional continuity model for Europe," she and colleagues wrote in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

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[NWHarkness]

1. Here we go again

Another example of the liberal media disrespecting the Republicans...oh, you meant literal Neanderthals?

Never mind.

[Terwilliger]

2. Does this mean anything?

Does it subtract from evolution?

It seems to me that, since chimps are the precursors of modern apes (humans), why shouldn't Neanderthals be considered proto-human?

[Ediacara]

4. The question is this

Are Modern Humans descended from Neandertals, or are Neandertals and Modern Humans two seperate species descended from a common ancestor? It's been leaning very much toward the two sympatric species descended from a single common ancestor theory for quite a while, and this new study lends support to that.

And btw.... it's not correct to say "chimps are the precursors of modern apes (humans)," but something more like "Chimps and Humans share a common ancestor that gave rise to two lineages, one leading to Modern Humans (as well as Neandertals, and various fossil species), and the other leading to Common Chimps and Bonobos (as well as various fossils species)." The common ancestor of chimps and humans weren't chimps, but something else entirely, although granted, to an human it would look like a chimp.

[cosmicaug]

9. Nail in Wolpoff's Multiregional Evolution Model

Terwilliger wrote:

Does it subtract from evolution?

It seems to me that, since chimps are the precursors of modern apes (humans), why shouldn't Neanderthals be considered proto-human?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I guess you could say it's another nail in the coffin of Milford Wolpoff´s Multiregional Evolution model of Pleistocene human evolution (but I don't think that has had much acceptance for a long time).

On Edit: Small correction.

[depakid]

11. Wolpoff's model is dead in Europe

despite the fact that Milford himself has some decidedly Neanderthal features:




In all seriousness though, even without the various DNA studies, the skull morphology- and in particular the caverous nasal passageways, is different enough in Neanderthals to lead some researchers to conclude that they are a separate (and distinctly dead end) species.

That doesn't kill multiregionalism in Asia, however, where the genus Homo existed for at least 1 million years. Personally, I have doubts about the "out of Africa" theorists being able to accurately assess the mutation rate in mitochondria DNA over so many millenia (which at this point is the lynchpin of their theory). Moreover, there are lingering questions about Mungo 3 in Australia (whose ochre covered remains may or may not have yielded uncontaminated mitochondrial DNA from an earlier branch of humanity).

[aquart]

10. Oh, they're human.

The question is whether they are the same species of human as we are.

I sincerely hope so.

[GinaMaria]

20. I believe it does nothing to detract from evolution

I'm not well studied on the subject but this is my understanding. Neanderthal and Cro Magnum existed at the same time. Neanderthals had thicker bones and skin and would appear better suited for survival than Cro Mag. However, it is cro mag who survived and evolved. We are decsendants of Cro Mag.

CM had the same number of chromosomes we have. Neanderthal had fewer I believe. Since both were humanoids (not sure if that's the right word)they could mate. It is theorised that a mating of the two would yield offspring with an odd number of chromosomes who would not be able to reproduce. Similar to a mule.

Some believe that Cro Mag survived because of dogs. As the theory goes, cro mag used the dogs' sense of smell and evolved in a way that his/her brain could be used in ways other than having a highly developed sense of smell.

[Teaser]

26. Because our species aren't descended from theirs.

They represent a parallel branch in the evolutionary tree.

[0rganism]

3. I thought that had been established a long time ago...

...that Neanderthals were a dead-end branch that had migrated to Europe "early", and homo sapiens sapiens continued to develop in Africa. But I guess now we have computers and DNA analysis to tell us it's true, so it's news.

[ScrewyRabbit]

5. There had been ongoing questions about whether

they could inter-breed. The new evidence suggests they couldn't.

[sybylla]

14. Yeah, but the physical differences in donkeys and horses are extreme

yet they can breed together and produce a mule. I don't think they will ever find evidence/proof that this couldn't have happened in Europe or Asia between modern man and neanderthal.

on edit: likewise, I doubt they will ever find evidence/proof that it did happen either.

[psychopomp]

15. These findings demonstrate a lack of support for that hypothesis

"A computer analysis of the skulls of modern humans, Neanderthals, monkeys and apes shows that we are substantially different, physically, from those early humans."

I'd thought it likely that there would have been some breeding among the two similar hominids, myself.

edit: Mules cannot reproduce, so I do not think that is a good example. On a similar note, that is why people of African American and European-American backgrounds should not be called "mulattos." It is a legacy of darker days by way of Spain.

[sybylla]

21. It is a good example in that it demonatrates mere physical examination

alone cannot determine breeding compatibility.

The physical differences aren't as extreme between modern man and neanderthals as it is between donkeys and horses. And though the breeding relationship between the animals is not perfect, my point is appearances can be deceiving. By using their analysis, they would examine every decimeter of a donkey's skeleton and every decimeter of a horse's skeleton and likely conclude that they couldn't breed. Yet they can.

And I also understand that there are groups of animals that are much more similar in appearance than donkeys and horses which cannot cross-breed at all. My only contention is that by examining the physical remains alone, we can never KNOW with any certainty one way or another. Yes, it puts one more hash mark on the side supporting no mixing of the two lines. But until we can figure out how to recover several samples of 60,000 year old DNA, it will all be a guessing game - albeit a wonderfully scientific guessing game.

[heidler]

22. But occasionally can mules reproduce???

When this first came up I wondered about this and suspected that it would turn out that like all things in nature there are exceptions. If you search on Google using hinny or mule and sterile there are some exceptions noted. Mostly the comments are that generally the mule is sterile, but they seem less than positive.

If the Neanderthal and the Cro-magnons were in close proximity I suspect that they would have been very sexually active due to the even then common view that it was safe sex. We know that they were not stupid. Thus the repeated opportunity for conception would be there.

[librechik]

16. thank you n/t

[cosmicaug]

6. It's becoming better established as of late.

0rganism wrote:

I thought that had been established a long time ago that Neanderthals were a dead-end branch that had migrated to Europe "early", and homo sapiens sapiens continued to develop in Africa.

It's becoming better established as of late but it's still not what I'd call news. It is now thought by many that a common ancestor can be found only when going back 800000 years with little or no genetic contribution to our gene pool since then. Look up Homo antecesor (this might not help much as most of the links are in Spanish) and the finds in Atapuerca.

However, I wouldn't necessarily be impressed by the fact that this is a "computer analysis".

[SheepyMcSheepster]

13. yes me too.

i thought we had collectively deduced that we only share a common ancestor.

[cosmicaug]

7. Link to abstract.

Link to abstract (article itself appears to be available only for a fee).

And, for whatever it's worth, link to paleoanthropologist profile.

[GregW]

8. They tell us that, we lost our tails ...

... evolving up
from little snails
i say it's all
just wind in sails
are we not men?
we are DEVO!
we're pinheads now
we are not whole
we're pinheads all
jocko homo
are we not men?
D-E-V-O
monkey men all
in business suit
teachers and critics
all dance the poot
are we not men?
we are DEVO!
are we not men?
D-E-V-O
god made man
but he used the monkey to do it
apes in the plan
we're all here to prove it
i can walk like an ape
talk like an ape
do what a monkey do
god made man
but a monkey supplied the glue
we must repeat
o.k. let's go!

[Dogmudgeon]

12. Maybe our cute cousin, then

Separated at Birth: Homo Neanderthalensis and actress Natasha Lyonne?



Well, her father was a prizefighter and fight manager (Adam Braunstein).

An excellent actress, by the way. She played Jessica in American Pie and was the narrator of Everybody Says I Love You. And The Slums of Beverly Hills was hysterical!

How 'bout a sample of that DNA, then, Natasha? This time, it's not for fun, it's for science!

--bkl
My method is Science,
My aim is Religion.

[librechik]

18. somebody had to do this

[GregW]

19. You know it runs in the family, right?

[David__77]

17. I have heard this many times.

I was just talking about this. It's such an interesting subject. It's also interesting that so many people consider these stories to be valid, and yet reconcile all this with "creationism." It's positively Orwellian.

[yellowcanine]

23. Apparently those researchers never met my grandfather.

Actually both my grandfathers were decent guys and I thought the whole Neanderthal/Modern man relationship (common ancestor but no ancestor-descendent relationship) has been "settled" science for quite some time now. Maybe this new study just used a different technique to confirm what we knew already? I guess any study results that relate to human evolution qualify as "news" for scientifically challenged media types.

[Emillereid]

24. However, he is definitely related to the Chimp in the White House!

[Voltaire99]

25. No, the Neanderthal was not my grandfather.

He's my president.

[maxsolomon]

27. see the 13th warrior

basically, homo sapiens killed all the neandertals.

it was them or us.