Teenager's Conservative Club Causes Uproar

[bluestateguy]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109546,00.html

SAN FRANCISCO — Tim Bueler started the Conservative Club (search) to balance what he calls the liberal bias in his public school, but when some schoolmates found his views offensive and threatened to beat him up, the 17-year-old claims the principal and teachers turned the other way.

cut

In the newsletter, Bueler calls for a crackdown on "every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his third world state to come to America, mostly illegally."

cut

Bueler defended his inflammatory rhetoric, saying: "We feel that liberalism is a mental disorder and they attack family, faith and country and military.

[Superfly]

1. Yikes....

remind me never to invite this guy over....

[saigon68]

56. His Haircut is too long

The Skinhead rhetoric above, will require him to cut his hair to be consitent with the program.

[oneighty]

2. We feel?

Young man is with child.

180

[saigon68]

64. His use of "every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose "

Is just another way of saying "every Rag-head, Nigger and Spic."

What a disgusting human being

[Bluzmann57]

3. Sad when one so young is poisoned

Fortunately I don't believe most youth are that insane. At least I hope not.

[Momof1]

4. This guy was on the news last night, can't remember which

channel, but they are investigating the teachers and administrators that looked the other way, when he was being threatened, of course the news broadcast didn't quote what he said in his newsletter. He was made out to be the victim of the liberal left...must have been Faux news.

[mbperrin]

5. Racism is not a conservative value! Not a liberal value!

Racism is a mental disorder in which one transfers responsibility for one's troubles onto others!

Sounds like his alligator mouth wrote a check his hummingbird butt couldn't cash. That's life.

[bleedingheart]

8. He is lucky his clock didn't get cleaned...

While I don't agree with violence, if you spew violence then how can you expect to be treated???

I like the hummingbird remark...

[Just Me]

39. "Liberals" have become the new "race" to destroy,...

,...and I do mean that seriously. After all, fascists seek to centralize power by imposing their own narrowly defined social/economic controls (anyone who operates outside those definitions are labeled sick, diseased, "evil"), and manipulating via touting patriotism (nationalism, that is). Anyone who falls outside these neo-nazis' framework are attacked.

We have the Bush cabal to thank for unleashing the real evils associated with such incredibly demented horrors of humanity. While he believes himself "born again" and graced by the Almighty, he has relinquished his power to a seedy, greedy cabal which is fully arming human evil. It is simply,...incredible to me that a country so full of potential is allowing this to happen. Well,...I don't know,...I just don't know what to make of such cyclical perversions.

All I know for sure is that, the last four years have produced approximately 91 acts of terrorism. Eighty-seven (87) were home-grown (arising from the likes of this boy),...only four were international. The FACTS prove that a war against terrorism begins within our own borders. This boy proves a far greater danger to our secular society wobbling in the experiment of democracy than those who are thousands of miles away.

This administration's problem is that it is so self-centered and serving,...as it seeks to empower itself through conquering and controlling foreign resources,...that, it hasn't a clue what kind of hell it ignores right in its own backyard.

Too bad, so sad.

[tom_paine]

106. Yes, Liberals are the Jews of Imperial Amerika

I'm not particularly Liberal, but I certainly volunteer to defend them from Nazi fucks.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

103. i disagree

i think racism which in this country is also elitism is thoroughly encouraged by the conservatives

[pinto]

6. wonder at what dinner table the kid learned this kind of hate...n/t

[thebaghwan]

15. Yes, You really do need to wonder about that. How sad!

n/t

[bleedingheart]

7. All this kid is missing is the SS uniform to match is ideaology with

his looks...

[Wwagsthedog]

9. This young man needs some time in the military (enlisted).

There, he can spout all the racist views he wants and wish he was back in school after doing so. faux, or any other media, won't be there to cover his story; that's for sure.

[bleedingheart]

11. I bet in the army they would throw him a "blanket party"

[RhodaGrits]

14. oh no please...

one of the problems we have is the military is turning frightened poorly educated racist kids loose on a population that shares neither language nor culture. This generation has its towelheads, we had the gooks.

[HawkerHurricane]

16. HAH!

I watched groups a skinheads join the Navy, and get thrown out, while working for RTC San Diego in the early '90's.

Hey, guess what: a good percentage of your shipmates are minorities. A lot of them outrank you. Say the wrong thing, I dare you. If you are lucky, they'll ONLY report you.

[SharonAnn]

32. Time in the military? - Like Tim McVeigh?

couldn't help but think he looks like another Tim McVeigh.

[RhodaGrits]

10. I suppose he's a native american?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus

When did skinheads become the oppressed? Fox -fair and balanced.

[bleedingheart]

13. ah...but the nazis in germany used the same technique to gain

sympathy...they even had stupid films made which depicted the aryan maidens being manipulated by the evil semites... just to gain sympathy...

its all so nauseating.

[Just Me]

42. Beautiful,...defiled by predators who calculatively use"victimization",...

,...as a sword against the brightest light of humanity. Go figure. The light of the human spirit will always be attacked by those who are possessed by their own darkness. The only power such figures have over anyone is projecting their darkness. Fortunately, humanity is starting to awaken to such manipulative moves.

[Democat]

12. His conservative club = Racist club?

What does he expect? Right wingers want anti-Bush shirts banned in schools, but he wants to be able to spew racist attacks?

Right wing hypocrisy never ends.

[lovedems]

17. That

is just some scary shit right there.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Glad Fox admits conservatism = racism

*bad editors*

[Poseidon]

20. that is lame

conservatism does not equal racism. conservatism may be reprehensible, but conservatism does not equal racism.

[Toots]

23. Maybe not all conservatives are racists but most racists are

conservative. Just the way it happens to be.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[northzax]

53. of course it doesn't

there are many fine people of the small 'c' conservative bent, who believe in smaller government, lower taxes and the like, who are not any more racist than the rest of the population. This kid is not a small c conservative, he's an asshole claiming the mantle of conservatism to provide cover for his stone age ideology. But, NSMA is right, FOX screwed up here, they would have been better served to have a real conservative, even someone like George Will, comment on the fact that true conservatives don't believe all this crap. If conservatives let people usurp their name with this poison, they'll have to find a new label in the next decade or so.

[BadGimp]

19. He's my hero

[Hobarticus]

21. Achtung, baby...

Yeah, being a loudmouth racist dick SHOULD get you beaten up, these days. And it's hard to find any one who'd stand up for you.

[sandboxface]

74. i wanna kick this kids ass

[bluestateguy]

22. Chickens come home to roost

I do not condone violence against him, but he really brought it on himself.

[denverbill]

24. God, that is one ugly skinhead.

Guess what MORON. We don't pay taxes to provide you a 24-hour-a-day police escort. Here's a clue: don't make idiotic, inflammatory, racist statements and you won't get beat up.

Maybe you should consider private school. Is there a David Duke Prep School nearby? I kinda doubt the Catholics, Baptists, Jews, or any other religious or non-religious private schools would take an asshole like you.

[ablbodyed]

34. The baptists would love him...

What cult do you thing most KKK's were? In church every week, and if you think they've changed....

[JohnOneillsMemory]

37. Don't criticize appearances. That's what he is guilty of. Just actions.n/t

[NeoConsSuck]

55. Bob Jones University

would take him.

[Cronus Protagonist]

25. He has a doberman's eyes

He would make a fine soldier. And I have a place in mind where he could serve his country well....

"FUCK Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[RhodaGrits]

26. This is an insult to dobermans

I've worked with dogs for over 20 yrs and dobes are one of the few breeds of which I can say that one has not gone to bite me. The exception would be an attack-trained dog and I will concede that this kid might fall into that category. Also, dobes are intelligent... I listened to the interview and would rule out intelligence behind those eyes. Hatred, yes.

[HawkerHurricane]

49. It's also a insult to soldiers.

Although I agree, he'd be an asset to the Army, as part of a mine detection unit...

[0007]

27. Sounds like there is more to this story than FAUX News

is willing to let you know.

So what else is new with FOX News these days?

[Hobarticus]

28. I only hope Joan Jett plays his high school prom.

He'll take a swing at her, and she'll clean his little skinhead clock.

[CO Liberal]

29. He Wasn't Threatened For Being a Conservative

He was threatened for being an ignorant, hate-filled asshole.

[mike_c]

30. find that boy a re-education camp....

eom

[Benhurst]

31. At last we know what happened to

Rosemary's baby.

[madrchsod]

35. he must post

on stormfront. sounds like all the code words they use. white power! slime balls

[flamingyouth]

36. He looks like a robot

Guess he thinks like one too. :eyes:

Seriously, if I were in school with this bonehead, I would probably devote at least 30% percent of my time to tormenting him.

[snippy]

38. He reminds me of Tom DeLay.

[drscm]

40. Or a future Timothy McVeigh. eom

eom

[PROGRESSIVE1]

41. So is he....

the "Aryan Nations or David Duke jr."???

:scared:

[jokerman93]

43. This kid isn't the problem

He's been passed over. he's watched everyone else get in front of him in line. He's angry. He has probably never experienced the profound love of a parent or the concerned and frank guidance of a responsible adult. Now he's old enough to start being dangerous.

What disturbs me is that a child with this sort of deep dissociation and rage is taking refuge in the mainstream conservative movement as apposed to the white supremacy movement which might have been the case in the 1980's.

What does this say about where we find ourselves today?

[CShine]

44. HELLOOOOOOO FOX!!!!! THIS IS NOT BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

What the fuck is Fox doing? This is an OLD STORY! Why are they trotting it out AGAIN???

This was widely reported a full month ago. There are no new developments in the Fox story whatsoever.

Here's a link to the Washington Times' bitchfest about the same story way back on December 30th.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031229-105705-1963r.htm

There are no new facts reported at all in the Fox piece linked at the top of this thread, and yet this "new" Fox story is dated Jan. 27th.

Obviously, Fox is just trying to keep their hatemongering agenda on the front page, even if it means trotting out old news and putting a new date at the top of the page to make it seem like it's current. Fox is so full of shit.

[Philosophy]

45. Can he really call it a "club"

if he's the only one racially pure enough to be a member?

[Rex]

46. The real tragedy

is that he thinks he got beat up because of his political views. Poor stupid, racist kid.

[dmr]

47. This Bueler needs to take the day off

and then the rest of the year and get a grip.

It's both sad and frightening that in the name of family, faith and country and military (his four values) he and other neo-cons hold so much rigid hate, they cannot see they are demeaning their Bible and our Constitution. Their hate is so indoctrinated, they've no concept of empathy for their fellow man.

I've always followed my conscience - and have taught my teenage son this as well. To put our feet in others' shoes. To do unto others ...

I keep thinking about "the adults now in charge" of the White House after the Clinton years of "what will we tell our children?" The White House and GOP today is full of cruel bullies. I see liars who blame others when they get caught; I see insulting immaturity, as in "Freedom Fries"; I see intolerance, as in "either you're with us or you're unAmerican". This is what our current political majority leaders are teaching. They are advocating ignorant,intolerant and deceptive behavior. How sad and frightening for all of us.

I'm thankful I am on this side of the fence. At least I have a peaceful heart.

[monobrau]

48. You'll get your crackdown, sonny

Nazi punks like you are old news, you whiney little baby.

[LeftHander]

50. Hate Speech

Idiot skin head.

[cedahlia]

51. Conservative Club?

Well, when I was in high school, they were called white power skinheads, and they indeed would have probably repeatedly gotten their asses whooped by the punk rock kids or real skinheads (the nonracist ones.) They've always been a bunch of sniveling cowards, and now they're hiding behind the guise of "Conservative Club." That's priceless.

This brings back memories of my days as a a punk and Anti-Racist Action rallies. One time at a rally in D.C. those fools showed up in a bus, (all 10 or 20 of them!) and when they saw that we had tens of thousands of people on our side, they refused to leave the bus. They had paid for the permit and everything...it was supposed to be their rally, but we took advantage and just played music and marched around on their dime for the rest of the day...it was great!:evilgrin:

[DiverDave]

52. Email to the tv station

I sent this:

When did conservative become Nazi?
Free speech does not include hate speech.
You really think this is an appropriate way for a teenager to act?

Wait, you are fox news, the lapdog of the fascist's.
murdoch is slime, we will take care of him when we get an HONEST president in the white house. And take back congress to boot.

You are just pathetic in your subservience to the junta

[northzax]

54. isn't it strange

that this 'conservative' I'm sure opposed to the nanny state and who sees government as the source of all problems, went straight to the teachers for protection when people started to question him?

[Blitz]

57. Jesus Christ, this is a progressive board????

Seriously, I have read the entire thread and I cannot believe that, on a "progressive" board NOT ONE so-called progressive speaks up for free speech. This young man was threatened with physical violence in response to SPEECH. You know, that activity mentioned in the First Amendment? I do not care how offensive his SPEECH may be, it is constitutionally protected. He is not shouting fire in a crowded movie theatre and his newsletter does not legally constitute fighting words. He, like every American, has a right to be offensive. He has a right to express hateful views. We all have the right to be wrong without risk of physical violence being done to us while people in positions of authority stand by and do nothing. The fact that school officials failed to take steps to protect him and his rights when he came under the thread of physical violence is unconscionable. The fact that a teacher actually encouraged the violence is horrific:

"One teacher posted a flier encouraging students to "take a stand against the neo-conservative wing nuts who call themselves Americans." The principal suggested that Bueler go home for a "cooling off" period."

The teacher in question needs to be fired. Immediately. It is unthinkable that a teacher would provoke students to act against their fellow students based on that teacher's political beliefs. What is the situation were reversed? What is this was a school near Marietta Georgia and some student had started a perfectly legal Socialist student union and a teacher had posted a flier encouraging students to "take a stand against the commie wing nuts who call themselves Americans." Would that still be OK? Would the principal, upon being told of threats of physical violence, be correct in telling students threatened in Georgia to go home and cool off, rather than confronting those that threatened them?

On this thread we have progressives talking about how they would like to "torment" this kid. About how he brought it on himself. Suggesting "don't make idiotic, inflammatory, racist statements and you won't get beat up." Hey, does that work both ways? Another poster wants to send the kid to a "re-education camp." Real nice. I cannot believe that that comment was made on a progressive board and without a peep of protest from the scores of people who have read it. Progressives? Maybe. I don't know what the hell some people are progressing towards. It sure isn't liberalism. Real liberals would be the FIRST to stand up for this young man's right to free expression. Not one person on this thread thus far has. Not one.

Voltaire would weep if he saw this thread. Some of the people who posted here should be ashamed.

[DrWeird]

59. Hey, I think we're progressive.

Sixty years ago we americans used to shoot nazis like him.

[Blitz]

60. We used to shoot American citizens who put out newsletters??

When and where?

[DrWeird]

61. Actually they were technically German citizens.

And it was between 1942 and 1945. Mostly in Western Europe.

[Blitz]

62. That's not quite the same, now is it?

And, if a U.S. soldier were to walk in on an unarmed German citizen (non-military) who was publishing a newsletter and shoot him, he would have been guilty of a war crime, wouldn't he? Even in 1945. Even in Germany.

[mbperrin]

80. We certainly shot American Army veterans who went

to Washington to demand their promised bonus. General Douglas MacArthur was in charge of running them out.

[Blitz]

81. And you're ok with that?

That's justification for violence in this instance?

[mbperrin]

87. You were asking for instances of official violence.

This is one.

Didn't know you wanted an opinion. Lessee...we promised the vets a benefit but wouldn't give it, shot at them, told them to leave and not come back (my grandfather was one of them).

No, I guess I'm against the government using their right to free speech to lie to people and then shooting them when they complain.

[Blitz]

90. How is your post

even remotely on-topic?

[mbperrin]

92. How is it not?

I answered a question asked in this string. If the question was off-topic, then so is the answer. In that case, the questioner should withdraw the original query.

[Blitz]

95. I asked when and where

We shot Americans who put out newsletters. Your answer had nothing to do with my question, which was related to the activity that the subject of the original article was engaged in.

[mbperrin]

96. Oh, OK. Look, I will spell it out. The vets published posters and

letters calling for the march. They were shot for it.

How's that?

Edited for a link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/peopleevents/pandeAMEX89.html

[Blitz]

98. Nice link

It has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone getting shot for publishing a newsletter. Nothing.

[mbperrin]

101. How do you think they spread the word to get together? ESP?

Look, you're obviously one of those folks who enjoys irritating others question after question after question of the generic type without ever responding to any actual facts or analysis.


Edited to add: BTW, the kid didn't get shot.

Hope you had fun today.

Have a nice life.

Hope you run into someone like this kid soon that promotes violence against you. It's my right to free speech, right?

[Robb]

63. Well put.

Shame duly noted. :thumbsup:

[monobrau]

65. You're wrong on a key point

"He is not shouting fire in a crowded movie theatre"

No, but he may as well be shouting "wetback" or "nigger" in a public school. And you may define "progressive" as "pacifist", but I don't.
If this punk wants to play with matches, he may get burned. I have no problem with racist thugs getting a boot to the head.
we've seen what happens when you try to play nice with these people. You get Nazi Germany and South Africa.
Come to my house sometime and you'll be offered a cup of tea and some conversation. Take a piss on my rug and I'll throw you out the window.
Being progressive doesn't mean impersonating a door mat.

[Blitz]

67. A public school is not your house

He can say whatever he wants. It's his right. It's a right that is among the most cherished in this country. There is no First Amendment or its equivalent in most of the world. Speech is not so carefully protected throughout Europe or is South America or even in Canada. It IS carefully protected in the United States. Neither you nor anybody else gets to put a boot to anyone's head for their expression of their views, no matter how offensive you may find them. This thread seems to prove that the difference between the hard left and the hard right, insofar as one exists, is the agenda but not the method of achieving it.

[DrWeird]

69. Actually, in public schools...

Racial slurs and insults towards teachers and school administrators tend to get most kids suspended. Apparently this kid gets special protection.

[Blitz]

79. Where did this kid

insult teachers or administrators? For that matter, where did he use a racial slur? And are you in favor of strictly enforced speech codes? That would be mighty progressive of you.

Finally, do you have a single example of a student being suspended by a public school for writing something in a political newsletter or are you simply making up facts to bolster your argument?

[mbperrin]

91. Bueler calls for a crackdown on "every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes

This is not a slur? Makes ME hot! It does insult me as a white male who's middle aged to lump me in as an anti-immigration proponent!

[Blitz]

94. You didn't answer the questions

And are you in favor of strictly enforced speech codes?

Do you have a single example of a student being suspended by a public school for writing something in a political newsletter?

His speech makes you angry? That is precisely the kind of speech that is most in need of protection. Your subjective opinion of his speech does not make it illegal and is not a justification for violence or the threat of violence against the speaker.

[mbperrin]

99. There's nothing "strictly enforced" about not allowing students

to call each other a Muhammad, a honkie, a nigger, a kike, a raghead, a weenie, a dork, a dyke, a bitch, a fag. These are uncivil and inciting terms and not allowed. They are broadly offensive. We're not splitting hairs here. You get in front of 182 adolescents a day and allow them to call each other names and get your economics, macroeconomics and US history taught in good order and I'll agree with you. I do this every day.

You?

Examples of written speech resulting in student suspensions (and no I do not necessarily agree with any particulars - you just asked for examples)
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lifink0116,0,6568721.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/2003/09/09/Pasco/Black_student_suspend.shtml

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3748

http://faculty-web.at.nwu.edu/commstud/freespeech/cont/cases/suspended.html

Do the Google for student suspended:14,000 hits.

It's really quite common.

Why don't you adopt the kid if you like him so much?

[mbperrin]

82. He most certainly cannot say what he wants to and neither can

his teachers or administrators. To say that liberalism is a mental disease is akin to saying that 5x5 is 16. Sorry, you are wrong, in no way do I have to allow you to say it or to agree with you saying it.

I had a student two years ago in US History class who tried to claim that the Holocaust never happened, that it was all made up to get sympathy for the Jews. He was wrong. I told him so. I showed him some of the photos my uncle Mickey took when he was in Europe.

In no way shape or form was I obligated to allow him to spew this poison, and I did not.

The whole point of school is to learn, not to have license to claim that most immigrants are in the country illegally. That is wrong.

[Blitz]

84. Saying that Liberalism is a mental disease is an opinion

And he is legally permitted to express it. Like many opinions, it may be wrong but that is irrelevant. As the courts have already held, students cannot say whatever they want in a classroom because that would disrupt the learning process. In fact, students can be told to be completely silent in class. That has nothing to do with the First Amendment. No teacher or school administrator or anyone else can encourage violence in response to an opinion expressed by a student inside or especially outside of the classroom. No teacher or administrator can condone or ignore the threat of such violence by one group of students against another. This student expressed a controversial and unpopular opinion, just like people on this board do every hour of every day. I find it pathetic to have members of DU encouraging and advocating violence against any individual for having expressed an unpopular opinion.

Hypocrites.

[mbperrin]

89. It's not an opinion, it's a statement in error. Mental

diseases are listed in the DSM-IV. Liberalism ain't there.

If you want to use circular logic, my OPINION is that it's OK to make him shut up instead of inciting violence against people of color.

Happy?

[iverglas]

97. tired of this jingoistic abject nonsense

He can say whatever he wants. It's his right. It's a right that is among the most cherished in this country. There is no First Amendment or its equivalent in most of the world. Speech is not so carefully protected throughout Europe or is South America or even in Canada. It IS carefully protected in the United States.

What drives people to say such ignorant things?

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/charter/charter.text.html

CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Being Part I of the Constitution Act, 1982

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS IN CANADA.

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.


Fundamental Freedoms

FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS.

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

I'd be curious what that looks like to you ... if not protection of freedom of fucking speech.

I could provide you with the UK equivalent, offhand, if you like (the European Convention on Human Rights as incorporated into UK law); New Zealand's and South Africa's free-speech guarantees are modeled on Canada's, and I could undoubtedly direct you quite a few more like them without too much difficulty.

Noticed any "free speech zones" being set up in the places where the Prime Minister of Canada speaks lately? (Or the Prime Minister, or even the Queen herself, of Great Britain?) No? Well that might be because there aren't any, because CANADA is a free speech zone.

Now, the young fella in question here might indeed find himself in a spot of bother if he went so far as to do something like this:

(Criminal Code of Canada)
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec318.html

Hate Propaganda
Advocating genocide

or this:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec318.html

Hate Propaganda
Public incitement of hatred
Wilful promotion of hatred

But then he might get into a similar spot of bother in the US for shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, or disclosing military secrets, or giving false testimony in a court, or making fraudulent claims in a television commercial.

Speech is not absolutely unfettered anywhere on earth, and not many people would actually agree that it should be.

Some of us disagree as to what is a justified interference in free speech and what is not.

A public school is not your house

Yer damn right it isn't. Which is why the school authorities MAY impose and enforce limitations on speech in a public school, while only YOU have the authority to do so in your house. Or did you think that a student could stand up in math class and start singing the Marseillaise and not expect to be disciplined?

Most of us, of course, would agree that certain limitations may be imposed on speech in certain specific circumstances -- like on school property -- to protect the interests of the people who need and are required to be there.

In such situations, permitting certain speech could result in denial of those people's rights, since it could be hard to get an education, or teach children, with yahoos forming clubs to call one names and call for one to be deported.

There will always be disagreements about the extent to which the exercise of rights should be limited, and the justification for such limitations.

Disparaging other people's views on the subject without even bothering to know what they are just doesn't qualify as "disagreement".

But hey, yer as entitled to do that as I am to criticize you for it.

This thread seems to prove that the difference between the hard left and the hard right, insofar as one exists, is the agenda but not the method of achieving it.

Yeah. Maybe if you define the issue away by saying that "protecting vulnerable individuals and groups from harm" isn't part of one of those agendas.

.

[mbperrin]

102. Thanks. Said much better than I've been able to.

eom

[Rich Hunt]

72. I agree

...but I also agree that this student's views are being mischaracterized by the article. He is clearly a skinhead and not just a 'conservative'.

[Norquist Nemesis]

85. Free speech does not include hate speech

I'll bet David Duke started out the same way. Clearly, this kid's agenda stems from hate. If someone wants to speak against others or their ideas they have that right. However, they do not have the right to label others with hate-filled rhetoric and join forces with persons of the same ilk in an effort to incite violence or harm. That's what this kid was attempting to do. To claim anything less is begging for trouble from future leaders such as this warped young kid.

[Blitz]

86. Free speech DOES include hate speech

Where did you learn about the First Amendment?

Free speech most definitely includes hate speech. It includes racist speech and mysoginistic speech and anti-semitic speech and homophobic speech. David Duke and Pat Buchanan and Amiri Baraka and Farrakhan all have the RIGHT to say or publish pretty much anything they want. If free speech did not include hate speech, Robert Byrd would be in prison, not in the Senate. Incitement to violence is a very narrow exception to the protctions guaranteed under the First Amendment that does not begin to apply in this case. I find it appalling how little respect alleged liberals and progressives give to the First Amendment; the bedrock of liberalism.

[Rich Hunt]

88. again, I agree

....besides, it is dangerous to repress any ideas, especially extreme ones. It doesn't help stamp out bigotry at all.

The solution to hate speech is more speech and all that ...

[pinto]

93. I agree, free speech is a basic big C guarantee..one other point,

incitement....the groups newsletter was quoted as supporting a "crackdown", very incomplete quote, but I would be concerned about encouraging a crackdown on a list of folks, as should the school. And, the teachers public comments, via a flyer, would likewise concern me as encouragement to act....both could be seen to incite violence.

Cooler, objective heads ought to have stepped in on this one.

[louis-t]

58. Ahhh, a new Nazi poster boy. Obviously a Savage fan.

[EV1Ltimm]

66. Principals and teachers turned the other way?

No matter what the kid said, they should have at least done something to calm the situation.

Principals and teachers weren't there for me either when i was getting beat up for being an atheist. and let me tell you, there's nothing worse than going to a school full of 1200+ kids and yet feeling completely by yourself.

The kid may be a giant asshole, but this whole experience is probably going to screw him up for a long time, leading to an obsession with hating liberalism, civil rights etc etc.

[Blitz]

68. They did more than turn the other way

At least one teacher fueled the situation. That person needs to be terminated from their position ASAP.

[devilgrrl]

70. Yeah? Then that student should be booted out along with them!

:grr:

[Blitz]

71. For what?

eom.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

76. so do I ...

what? Kindly clarify.

[Clovis Sangrail]

75. why?

you were all about this kid's 1st ammendment rights...
what about the teacher's right to free speech?

In that vein, I agree it's that kid's right to free speech entitles him to put out a racist newsletter or make a racist speech.

My right to free speech entitles me to laugh and say it couldn't happen to a better person after he gets hit by a truck.
(or beaten to death... either would amuse me)

[Blitz]

78. The First Amendment

does not guarantee job security when speech is used in a manner that is antithetical to the purpose and nature of the job. Posting fliers seeking to turn groups of students against each other (with foreseeable violent results) is antithetical to a teacher's duties. A person who encourages conflict between students has no business being a teacher.

[proud patriot]

77. awe look at the cute little Nazi

:puke:

[shamanstar]

83. right down the road from me

this kid goes to school in cotati right by where i live.

i just cant even believe the ignorance. does he think his ancestors were born here on north america?

[DiverDave]

107. I used to live

on myrtle ave (street?) went to cotati elementary.

When it was all farms.
We had a chicken outfit behind us...whew, what a smell.

That was in 1969

[ElsewheresDaughter]

100. jays'us h christ...look what rush has spawned...minnions

[xxqqqzme]

104. Bueler - hmmmm

I wonder about the cultural link of that name?

Soon your tax dollars will B used as vouchers for 'faith based' education - the NYC school(Nazi Youth for Christ). Bueler here is on the waiting list.

[Endangered Specie]

105. Founding member of "Die Hitler Jugend" club

Some how, envisioning him in a brown shirt singing "Die Horst Wessel Lied" is not much of a stretch.

[youngred]

108. well go figure

that's what the conservatives in my school did to me when i tried a similar stunt.

I also didn't whine to the press about it, but I did take my beatings.