Supreme Court bans death penalty in child rape cases

[ChairmanAgnostic]

Source: MSNBC just reported this

MSNBC just reported this. Wow. Is the SC becoming constitutional or something?

No link yet.

---

Wow. Is the SC becoming constitutional or something?

[zanne]

1. Good ruling. Thank God. nt

[Claire Beth]

16. I agree...it was a good ruling n/t

[marshall]

26. Aren;'t most child rapists mentally ill?

They need treatment and rehabilitation--as well as protection within the prison community.

[MetaTrope]

76. More to the point, most child rapists are Republicans

In light of which, the court's decision is no surprise at all.

[Bacchus39]

2. I see no particular reason to celebrate n/t

mm

[Coventina]

4. Unintended consequences

If someone rapes a child, aware that they could get the DP for it, then they are more likely to murder the child so as to avoid having the child ever testify against them. Why leave a talking victim? It's the DP (possibly) for either crime.

This is a good decision. It's better for the child to survive and testify against their attacker.

[derby378]

6. Hate to admit it...

...but you brought up an excellent point.

Perhaps a life sentence would be better. It isolates the offender from the gene pool as much as a needle, a bullet, or a noose.

[TrogL]

30. Unless they get married in prison and get conjugal visits

Some wierd women marry prisoners for bizarre reasons.

[Bacchus39]

11. you're assuming a rational mind, I would not attribute that to a child rapist

also, the age of the child would be determinate in their ability to identify the attackder.

there are alot of circumstances involved and could probably support the death penalty in some of them. see the post on the attack on the grad student in NY.

nonetheless, I'll read the opinion.

[Coventina]

18. Well, from what I've read, it seems that many are highly rational,

cool, and methodical about their crimes.

I certainly wouldn't say that all of them are, however.

And yes, every case is different. But we have to have a standardized law code. We can't make it up for each individual case.

[Bacchus39]

22. so why not assume then the criminals wouldn't rape children in the first place

if they knew they would get the death penalty. the argument seems to be, criminals won't kill the children because they know they themselves won't be killed. if that is the case, then why can't it be argued that the children wouldn't be raped in the first place if the animals knew they themselves would be killed.

[JeanGrey]

77. You won't get a response for that!

[Coventina]

82. I'm sorry, I had to go to work and haven't been on DU

And now I'm leaving for work again.

[Coventina]

81. The risk vs. reward factor is very different between rape & murder

I think we can agree that these people are psychologically sick, because they feel they need sexual contact with children (for the sake of argument, let's say pre-pubescent children because I think that's what most people imagine when the term "child rape" comes up).

Most of these perps and the victims have close, emotional relationships: family members, friends, etc. Most of these perps don't have a desire to kill their victims. They believe they can control the children by winning their love or loyalty or at least cowing them into silence.

Once a child disappears, it's a whole new ballgame, and those closest to the child are usually the prime suspects.

Now, I know that there is no way to "prove" that the DP or lack thereof will cause or prevent any of these crimes. But I feel that it is better to err on the side of caution about instituting any policy that could possibly increase the danger to the victim.

[Dogtown]

20. insane does not = stupid

Many of these criminals, especially sociopaths, are highly organized and methodical.

[Dogtown]

17. Coventina, that's a very clear post!

Thanks, many of us would not have considered that likelihood.
A reasoned and crisp reply; again, thanks!

[Coventina]

19. Thanks!

:cheers:

[hughee99]

34. I don't think this will make any difference at all.

If a person is already willing to rape a child, and willing to kill that child to avoid the death penalty, why would they not also be willing to kill the child to avoid 10-20 years in prison?

[milou]

55. Flawed logic

So let me get this straight, one of the arguments against the death penalty is that it doesn't stop murders. So now the mere possibility of the death penalty is enough to make someone murder, but the possibility of the death penalty is not enough to keep someone from murdering? Huh.

I'm just trying to figure out your logic.

[np33]

63. Do you really

think that criminals, while in the commission of committing a crime seriously think about the reprecussions or better yet even think they will be caught? Isn't the whole point for committing a crime because they believe, they can get away with it? Of course no one can truly know other then the rapist but I think that when a rapist has decided to kill their victim they'll do it regardless of the possible penalties.

[iverglas]

66. there are others I'd just add

The more horrible the penalty, the more difficult it can be to convict. Many people have a quite understandable revulsion at the idea of sending someone to his/her death.

And the unintended consequence of *that* one is that juries get skewed. People who oppose the death penalty and could not in conscience be associated with it are excluded from jury duty in death penalty cases.

People who support the death penalty are obviously of a more primitively punitive mindset, on the whole, than people who oppose it. It is very arguable that the people who end up sitting on juries are more predisposed to convict as a result.


So where the death penalty is available it could be harder to convict someone who should be convicted, but is more likely easier to convict someone who should not be convicted.


I would just agree with what some others have said, that offenders of this kind are sometimes sociopathic/psychopathic, thus well organized and focused on their own interests. I wonder whether those types of offenders are not simply likely to kill their victims in any event, though.

It does seem like a bad idea to have a law that could increase the risk of children being killed, quite apart from it being a bad idea all round for a society to kill people.

[Irreverend IX]

5. I suspect their rationale was that...

If child rape is punishable by death, child rapists are more likely to kill their victims because they know they're already in as deep as they can get.

[AngryAmish]

8. I think this is a cruel and unusual case

Whether or not it is a good law usually is not an appellate court's concern in situations like this (I think).

[sharp_stick]

9. Perhaps because that was the thin edge of the wedge for

the righties, or don't you think that the rw nutjobs would next decide that blowing up an oil facility with no deaths is due the death penalty because of the damage it caused the community. Or that treason, as defined by a military tribunal, would be due the death penalty because not bowing at the proper time to the appointed idiot in chief is bad form. Hell some religious zealots in this country want to bring it back for shit like apostasy and homosexuality.

The death penalty IMO is an outdated, expensive and inexact weapon used by the State in a thinly disguised effort for vengence.

In my experience, and I have quite a bit, the completion of the sentence of death brings on very little, if any, closure for the victims family. With a few exceptions almost all the victims family members I spoke too following execution of the inmate say something to the effect of "that's it?" "It doesn't make me as happy as I thought it would" or very commonly, "It was too easy for him". I don't blame the victims families for wanting to see the Son of a Bitch dead but it doesn't lead to the peace they need so badly.

[Bacchus39]

14. no, I am making no such extrapolations on this decision n/t

dd

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. No, of course you don't.

After all, this decision will only save many children's lives, which is of course much less important than the Righteous Ones getting their punishist jollies.

[nels25]

44. In the name of Sana Flush

how is this ruling going to save children's lives??

This ruling will ensure that a raped child will never see closure and will suffer their shame and problems their whole lives and in addition it will affect those who come in close emontional contact with them, assuming they are able to allow someone to get close enough to care.And I know what I am talking about since I have seen the aftermath first hand.

But what the hell at least the bad guy gets treated fairly and either gets to be a guest of a state for the rest of his stinking useless life, or more likely gets released into the public to prey again because he has been so called rehabilitated.

Oh and the victim? Well frankly who cares??

If you wonder why I am writing like this my wife was raped by an adult and he got away scot free.

There must and has to be a special place in hell for these people.

But by all means lets give them real good treatment while they breathe.

I am disgusted!!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. Wow, places that don't have the DP at all must be HELL then.

Stay away from such places. They're evil. They're full of criminal coddlers like me. :sarcasm:

[iverglas]

68. don't you know it

Canada here is just crawling with homicidal maniacs doing their dirty deeds, safe in the knowledge they might get out of jail 20 years hence if they're caught.

If the death penalty had been available when someone abducted and assaulted and raped and was going to kill me, I would have refused to testify. Or gone along with the defence when he pushed me on the question of whether the accused, who had kidnapped me in a car from which all the interior handles had been removed, and had to my knowledge done the same thing to two young women two days earlier and tried to do it to three young women the day before, and choked me until I began to lose consciousness, might have thought I was consenting. (The funny part is that I started to wonder myself.)

Closure, what a fucking farce. I got told by a psychiatrist a week later that I had a rape wish and a death wish, I flunked three law school exams right after testifying, the offender got put behind bars -- I did get criminal injuries compensation -- and I got a life-time of post-traumatic stress, which hadn't even been named when it all happened. Having him killed by the state would have fixed all that, alrighty.

Can I borrow that thing? :sarcasm:

[msanthrope]

51. Why assume that the Death Penalty 'gives closure'?

On the flip side--isn't it a piss-poor closure at that?

"Here--you've been the victim of a horrific crime. We think we got the guy. So feel better now, m'kay? After all, we have given you 'closure.'"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Only for people who were fucked up in the head to begin with.

Sane people, on the other hand, can be found here.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

38. There have been 218 post conviction DNA exonerations in US history

These stories are becoming more familiar as more innocent people gain their freedom through postconviction testing. They are not proof, however, that our system is righting itself.

The common themes that run through these cases — from global problems like poverty and racial issues to criminal justice issues like eyewitness misidentification, corrupt scientists, overzealous police and prosecutors and inept defense counsel — cannot be ignored and continue to plague our criminal justice system.

* Sixteen people had been sentenced to death before DNA proved their innocence and led to their release.
* The average sentence served by DNA exonerees has been 12 years.
* About 70 percent of those exonerated by DNA testing are members of minority groups.
* In over 35 percent of the cases profiled here, the actual perpetrator has been identified by DNA testing.
* Exonerations have been won in 32 states and Washington, D.C.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php

How many more people are innocent but lack DNA evidence to prove their innocence? How many innocent people have been put to death for crimes they did not commit?

[Pab Sungenis]

3. I'd be in favor of the death penalty for child rape

before I'd be in favor of it for anything else, including cop killing and treason.

If it's cruel and unusual to execute a child rapist, then the death penalty is cruel and unusual in every circumstance.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

10. and if a black 16 yr old sleeps with his 15 yr old white girlfriend

and is convicted of child rape, you still support the death penalty? My god, even victorians and puritans had more justice in mind.

[joeglow3]

28. Most cases look at circumstances

Most states do not automatically issue a death sentence when someone is murdered. There normally has to be pre-set extenuating circumstances.

That said I oppose the death penalty, but not for the reason people here do. I would rather see these scum in a 6 foot by 6 foot cell with no light and only bread and water so they can think for decades on what they did.

[JeanGrey]

78. That is why I am for the death penalty - the needle is much more

humane than locking someone up in a 6 x 6 foot cell for life. That is cruel and unusual punishment. I'd pick the dp if it were me, any day!

[fjc]

42. Very good. Let's all kill children for "raping" children.

[np33]

64. Come on

your taking it to the total extreme here. If Rape was an offense punishable by law I imagine it would be similar to different charges of manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, 1st degree. So no the 18 year old with the 15 year old girlfriend is quite an exaggeration.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. You're absolutely right.

Because the death penalty IS cruel and unusual in every circumstance.

[Pab Sungenis]

40. Bingo.

My point exactly, if not clear at first.

[fjc]

41. What's your point?

[SergeyDovlatov]

57. There is a pragmatic reason to oppose death penalty in such cases

There is a pragmatic reason to oppose death penalty in such cases

Suppose that the penalty for killing and rape is the same, namely death penalty.

Then there is nothing to deter a rapist from killing his victim after the act.
Moreover, killing a victim can make it more difficult to uncover the crime.

Thus, having a death penatly for rape will lead to more rape-and-kill crimes.

[flashl]

7. This stops the bible-death-belt end run around to increase DP convictions. nt

[gaijinlaw]

12. You can't go around killing people just because they deserve to die.

I oppose the death penalty only because I don't think the state should legitimately hold the power to kill its citizens.

That doesn't change the fact that there are people out there that need killin'.

[LanternWaste]

49. While that or may not be true

"That doesn't change the fact that there are people out there that need killin'."

While that or may not be true, I myself certainly have never met anyone with the depth or breadth or wisdom to determine who exactly those "people out there that need killin'" actually are.

And to be perfectly honest, I don't think that anyone with that depth or breadth of wisdom exists.

[JeanGrey]

79. Really? How about a grown man who rapes a three year old.

Trust me, "he needs killing". And it's easy to ascertain.

[LanternWaste]

84. I imagine a lot of people believe...

I imagine a lot of people believe they have absolute knowledge of who should, or should not be executed, and that it would be a no-brainer to determine who should executed and how they should die.

I myself simply don't have enough faith in human wisdom to allow for that possibility.

[Bigmack]

21. With all the cases overthrown because...

of DNA evidence, maybe we better just hold off on executions for a while... for everything.

Dumbya executed 152 people while he was governator of Texas, and some of them almost certainly were innocent. http://www.ccadp.org/serialpresident.htm

Why do people like me defend the lives of child killers and terrorists? Because I like to think I'm a civilized human being.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. I frequently run into people who say "Of course, they are guilty.

why else would the police have arrested them?"

How can you educate people about that?

[liberal N proud]

24. Here is a link to LA Times

Court rejects death penalty for raping children
From the Associated Press
7:42 AM PDT, June 25, 2008
WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court today outlawed executions of people convicted of raping a child.

In a 5-4 vote, the court said the Louisiana law allowing the death penalty to be imposed in such cases violates the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

"The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his majority opinion. His four liberal colleagues joined him, while the four more conservative justices dissented.

There has not been an execution in the United States for a crime that did not also involve the death of the victim in 44 years.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-scotus25-2008jun25,0,5167176.story

[ebdarcy]

25. Honestly, I was expecting them to rule the other way.

Another 5-4 decision. We have to get Obama elected and actually into the White House.

[redqueen]

27. Can't we just ban the death penalty PERIOD?

Progress... but still.

[Nye Bevan]

29. Life without parole is OK with me

as it is effectively a delayed death penalty, but without the multiple appeals, last-minute dramatics, demonstrations, controversies and so on. A lifetime of crappy prison food is *much* cheaper than all of the legal aggravation the death penalty entails.

Let this scum sit in a cell for the rest of his miserable life.

[nels25]

45. I might buy that if it

really meant life without parole.

But consider the Loeb & Leopold case of 1928(date) it was then considered the crime of the century.

Clarence Darrow argued against the DP and succeeded, resulting in both being sent to prison with no chance of parole.

One of the two was killed in a fight in the prison they were held in, the other was later release (I think in 1948) he died in the late 60's or early 70's I believe IN FREEDOM.

Now explain to me how that equals life without parole.

In addition consider that right now in California one of the Manson killers is being considered for parole because she is sick.

Strange a,most 40 years ago she thought nothing of cutting out a fetus from a pregnant actress and just for the heck of it butchering her.

Can you give me a good reason why she should be released.

Lastly If President Bush were ever to be tried and imprisoned I would wager a large amount of currency that most on DU would want him to rot in jail till he died and then rot there another 20 years.

All I ask for is consistency in arguments.

I am at the current time for the most part pro DP.

I am willing to completely cast that belief aside if, and I mean if I can be convinced that Life without parole will mean exactly that.

If it does not then the victims and their families count for nothing.

To me that does not seem right.

[flashl]

31. Recent rape case overturned ...

Marlon Pendleton walked out of an Illinois prison a hopeful man after more than a decade locked up for a rape he did not commit.

Cleared by DNA evidence, he sought a pardon from the governor and about $140,000 in automatic state compensation. Two years later, he's still waiting, his optimism frayed by poverty that has him sleeping on his sister's couch in Indiana.

"They say once you pay your debt to society, it's over," said Pendleton, his voice bristling with anger. "But I didn't even owe a debt to society, and I paid it, and it's not over."

A growing backlog has Pendleton and about 1,600 others waiting for months and even years for clemency decisions from Gov. Rod Blagojevich.

...

The delay has led a dozen convicted felons to file a federal lawsuit alleging Blagojevich is taking too long to make pardon decisions. In their cases, a pardon would allow their criminal records to be expunged, likely improving their chances to find work. Some have been waiting for a decision since 2004.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-pardon-web-jun23,0,2491601.story

[ChairmanAgnostic]

32. unless or until blago sees some PR value or a way to earn

campaign bucks, he does little more than go to sports games and listen to elvis.

[hughee99]

33. Here's something I don't get, can someone help

the death penalty is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment and was banned in this case. They're not really ruling on the case, they're not deciding the persons guilt or innocence, they're just ruling on the punishment. Either the death penalty is cruel and unusual, or it's not, regardless of what the persons crime was. It's about the punishment, not the crime, isn't it?

How can they argue that it's cruel and unusual in one situation, but appropriate in another?

[Nye Bevan]

37. The rationale is that execution for murder is fairly common

but nobody has been executed for anything other than murder since 1964 (so the punishment would have been unusual).

It's like if you were sent to prison for 10 years for driving at 5mph over the limit. Prison is not in itself cruel and unusual but this sentence would almost certainly violate the 8th amendment.

[hughee99]

39. It seems to me

they're not really arguing that the punishment itself is cruel and unusual, though, just excessive for the crime committed.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

35. this was never about sex crimes

the goal is to allow the death penalty to be applied to non-murderers so that the the death penalty can be used in the war on drugs. It just seemed it would be easier to get the precident with pedophiles.

[msanthrope]

52. Exactly---this was about extending the DP to non-capital cases

to make certain classes of people easier to judicially kill.

[np33]

65. I think the war

on drugs is slightly different because then assuming your talking about non-murder drug cases then your getting into the territory of executing people for non-violent crimes which imo is very different then rape and murder.

[Midlodemocrat]

36. I just saw this on CNN. The death penalty is wrong in every instance

IMHO. I'm glad about this particular ruling.

[LeftyMom]

48. ^ I'm with her.

nt

[WA98070]

43. I don't believe in the death penalty but if anyone had raped my child we wouldn't have to worry ...

about a trial.

[JeanGrey]

80. Oh no! We couldn't have that! You would be taking the law

into your own hands. Then we could put YOU in prison, right? (sarcasm off)

[JerseygirlCT]

47. I guess even the creeps on the SC have limits

in how far they'll stretch the Constitution.

Child rapists have a very high recidivism rate - I doubt they can be safely re-integrated into society. But I'm completely against the DP, and think putting them away is much the better answer.

[depakid]

50. The Supreme Court ruled the death penalty unconstitutional for rape in 1977

See Coker v. Georgia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coker_v._Georgia

And as often happens, a Southern state didn't think it had to follow the law, so it tried to carve out some emotional circumstances to have it overturned.

E.g. today's care Kennedy v. Louisiana:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_v._Louisiana

The odd thing is about these southern states is that while they and their many if not most of their inhabitants are obsessed with the Old Testament, they're unable to see the obvious:

An eye for an eye is not just a prescription, but a limitation to punishment.

[msanthrope]

53. I'm not convinced this guy is guilty of the underlying rape---

Excerpted from NPR--


Despite the fact that Kennedy's stepdaughter supported the story of a rape by two boys, police soon became convinced that Kennedy was the perpetrator. Months later, after the girl had been removed from her mother's home, state social workers suggested to the mother that the child's return would depend on her facing up to the stepfather's role. The child then changed her story and implicated her stepfather. He was tried and sentenced to death. The Louisiana Supreme Court upheld the conviction, noting that the current U.S. Supreme Court, with its two new Bush appointees, has not ruled on the standards for evaluating death penalty laws.

SNIP


Here, he notes, "there is no DNA evidence, no positive physical evidence linking the defendant to the crime; you have a victim who has told two diametrically different stories and changed her story only after being told by the state that she was going to be put in foster care if she denied that her stepfather did it."

The child did indeed tell two dramatically different stories. In a videotaped interview with a psychologist shortly after the rape, she said two boys came to her house, dragged her over to the side yard, and as she put it, one of them put his "thing" in her "pee pee."

Over the course of two days of interviews, she was clearly reluctant to talk about the rape, at one point bursting out that she knew police wanted her to accuse her stepfather.

"I will tell the same story," she says, her voice rising. "They just want me to change it." The psychologist asks the child, "Who wants you to change it?" The reply: "The policemen. They want me to say my dad did it, and I don't want to change it."

Two years later in a second videotaped interview, the victim, identified by her initials L.H., said her stepfather raped her.

"I woke up one morning, and he was on top of me," she said, her voice expressionless and barely audible.

When asked what happened next, she answered, "He just raped me."

MUCH MORE at link

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89660806

[Tommy_Carcetti]

54. It was the right decision.

It's difficult because passion and emotion tend to get in the way, especially when sexual assault against a child is at issue. But I don't see how one can impose death in circumstances where no killing took place.

Actually, I don't know of any situation where any government can impose death against anyone who is in custody and not a danger to outside society, but that's just me.

[Zavulon]

56. Court bans death penalty for child rape

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court declared Wednesday that executions are too severe a punishment for child rape, despite the "years of long anguish" for victims, in a ruling that restricts the death penalty to murder and crimes against the state.

The court's 5-4 decision struck down a Louisiana law that allows capital punishment for people convicted of raping children under 12. It spares the only people in the U.S. under sentence of death for that crime — two Louisiana men convicted of raping girls 5 and 8.

The ruling also invalidates laws on the books in five other that allowed executions for child rape.

However devastating the crime to children, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his majority opinion, "the death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child." His four liberal colleagues joined him, while the four more conservative justices dissented.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080625/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_child_rape

---

I'm honestly unsure of where I come down on this. I generally think the death penalty is too much power to give to government, but the execution of a child rapist wouldn't make me lift a finger in protest because I happen to think death IS proportional punishment for the rape of a child. Curious to see where everyone else stands on this.

[dysfunctional press]

58. they'll use this as a reason that mccain NEEDS to be president- to save the scotus.

it's one of the BIG issues on the left- for instance, even if you're a hillary supporter who hates obama- the makeup of the supreme court is in the balance.

between this and gay marriage in california- they might still be able to make a horserace out of this election.

[customerserviceguy]

59. Exactly right

This will galvanize the right like nothing else. And the folks in the middle might be squishy about gay marriage, but they know where they stand on child rape.

The political consequences of this decision are enormous.

[dysfunctional press]

60. if they give the gun lobby a reason to froth at the mouth with tomorrow's decision...

we may have some BIG problems for november.

[customerserviceguy]

70. You may see calls

for a constitutional convention, if that happens...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. Wow. The Subthread of Concern.

[HiddenCSLib]

61. Uh

As a father of a child that was raped by a member of me now ex's side of the family when my daughter was 8, I am disappointed. That sick son of a bitch is now out of jail and enjoying his freedom now. I should have followed through on my first instinct, when I found out about this and killed his ass instead of just beating the crap out of him. To this day my daughter is afraid of him and now that he is out she is frantic. I have informed him that if he ever comes near my daughter, I will be more than proud to go to jail and I will make his death the most painful that I can imagine. My daughter will never be the same because of this MONSTER and he has no remorse, as his defense was and will also be "She enticed me and seduced me to have sex with her.", how does an 8 year old to that to someone that is 20 years old.

I say that is these MONSTERS that prey on children have to be re-habituated then fine, re-rehabilitate them and them put them in general release prison for the rest of natural life and inform the rest of the inmates exactly what he is in there for.

I do not and will never have any sympathy for any child molester or rapists, sorry I can forgive alot but never this.

I am liberal on a lot of things but conservative on others especially on child molesters, I am believe that they need the be eliminated.

[happyslug]

62. Here is the Opinion

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-343.pdf

"JUSTICE ALITO, with whom THE CHIEF JUSTICE, JUSTICE SCALIA, and JUSTICE THOMAS join," wrote a dissenting opinion that they would have UPHELD the statute for executing "child rapist". The dissent went for 24 pages even as the majority opinion went for 36.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

69. Good!

Next they should ban it for any crime.

[MrSlayer]

72. Poor ruling.

Pedophiles should be executed.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

75. your goal is a much larger shortage of priests? OK.

because if any identifiable group had large numbers of sexual predators, it would be the catholic church.

[Endangered Specie]

73. If not execution, then they should get life.

[Carnea]

74. Good nt

[AllyCat]

83. Nah. They know many of the Repukes do this kind of thing and need to be protected

www.armchairsubversive.org

Wouldn't want those with whom they sympathize put on death row with common murderers.