Obama supports rape executions

[AllHereTruth]

Source: cnn.com

CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says he disagrees with a Supreme Court decision striking down the death penalty for child rapists, telling reporters Wednesday that states should be able to execute people for “heinous” crimes.

“I think that the rape of small child, 6 or 8 years old, is a heinous crime,” the Illinois senator said. “And if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances the death penalty is at least potentially applicable, that does not violate our Constitution.”

The Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that capital punishment can be applied only to murderers, striking down a death sentence for a Louisiana man convicted of sexually assaulting his 8-year-old stepdaughter.

Read more: http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/25/obama-supports-rape-executions/

---

Mr. Obama has made it clear where he stands.
Good or Bad?

[zanne]

1. I'm an Obama supporter, but I'm disappointed in his opinion. nt

[skooooo]

8. No kidding...

I think he's off on this one.

[keep_it_real]

22. In a AOL poll 68 percent disagreed with the court

[zanne]

44. If we put non-murderers to death...

Let's say we start with child rapists. Wouldn't it eventually get down to people who tortured, but did not kill, other people? It's slippery slope.

[ohio2007]

86. LOL... like we actually put murderers to death after the guilty plea

I guess the pedophiles will go out and celebrate the decision with a bag of candy or gum.

[JoFerret]

129. Your understanding of the workings of "justice" are

very poor.

[frogcycle]

110. and i'd happily shove child rapists down that slope

[JoFerret]

128. Totally irrelevant

.

[zanne]

135. I didn't realize we were so bloodthirsty here. nt

[JoFerret]

139. It's rather disturbing actually

And extremely disapointing. My assumptions about a sense of social and legal justice are clearly not widely shared - on this thread at least.

[undergroundpanther]

159. I am bloodthirsty

And not ashamed on bit of it,concerning crimes like child rape.
I hate child rapists they are murderers.. they just do it very slowly via the victims own mind and brains.They ruin lives and take lives by proxy over time..

Most perpetrators don't molest only one child if they are not reported and stopped.
Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims. (23)
An average serial child molester may have as many as 400 victims in his lifetime.

…The catalyst for her severe mental health problems was, she says, the rape she suffered when she was 14.

…When Fran reported the rape, he was interviewed by police. Three more women claiming they, too, had been attacked came forward and agreed to testify against him. However, in 2001 the man killed himself before the Crown Prosecution Service could decide whether to proceed.

‘After the rape, I became clinically depressed,’ says Fran. ‘I lost a huge amount of weight and was admitted to a psychiatric hospital after trying to kill myself with an overdose of tablets. It wasn’t a cry for help; I wanted to die because of what he had done to me.’

http://writhesafely.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/how-psychiatry-blames-the-victim/

I support Brigitte Harris, the 26-year-old New York woman charged with strangling and castrating her pig of a father for what he did to her because he could.

http://writhesafely.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/these-are-the-secrets-that-kill/

[varkam]

168. At what point would you consider justice to be "served"?

Perhaps we could strew their entrails about the courthouse. You know, as kind of a warning. In fact, we could take their skin (once we are done removing the internal organs, of course) and make people convicted of other crimes of moral outrage wear the skin as punishment!

I swear, these threads would make Marquis de Sade blush.

[joeglow3]

220. That is too light

Your method eventually ends their suffering.

[JoFerret]

174. The death penalty is a barbaric, ineffective , expensive racist

form of criminal "justice".

I am sorry to hear such illiberal views and such opinions that are not based on any form of logic or reason but are purely driven by a thirst for righteousness and revenge.

[JeanGrey]

236. I am absolutely for the death penalty. Imprisonment of life in

a small 6 x 6 foot cell is cruel and unusual punishment. The needle is much kinder. I am constantly amazed at those who would see someone punished for years like this.

[BuddhaGirl]

248. the death penalty has been applied unfairly

and death row prisoners have sometimes been exonerated through DNA evidence.

so you are okay with potentially innocent people being executed, then? :eyes:

[AllHereTruth]

193. Rape is not murder. Only murder is murder.

I hate child rapists they are murderers..

I might get hate for this next comment, but here goes.

Rape is not murder. Only murder is murder.

The victim in a murder case is dead in the ground.
The victim in a rape case receives counseling. They are given a second chance. Their lives continue.

Child rape is terrible. Many times it is never forgotten. I am not debating that. My point is that over the past 20 years the media has portrayed rape as worse than murder. i have heard people say that, with full belief in their heart that it is true.

How can something that does not kill you be worse than something that does. Its like saying breaking your left foot is the same as having it amputated.


Feel free to flame. Feel free to disagree. Just understand where i am coming from.

[joeglow3]

221. Tell that to the 1 year old who had her insides torn apart

Because a male at a hospital here had "sex" with her. However, I too oppose the death penalty for this man. The reason? I have 2 family members who work for the prison and I GUARANTEE to you what this man will endure will have him begging for the death penalty.

[JeanGrey]

Tell that to a six year old raped by a 30 year old man.

It happened to me. Would I see him dead? YOU BETTER BETCHA. That was worse than death.

[High Plains]

260. And you're here to talk about it.

That's the difference between rape and murder.

[AllHereTruth]

264. Exactly.

As much harm, both physical and mental, rape does to someone you have to remember this. You are still alive.

The hate you may feel towards the rapist is only there because you are alive.

That is how rape does not equal murder.

Again; Only Murder is Murder

[Scairp]

270. Really, really poor judgment

And I have no idea where Obama is coming from. As someone who is working hard to get into the mindset of throwing my support to him, I'm aghast at this. Who is he pandering to? It certainly isn't people like me, a confirmed anti-death penalty liberal. We should be working hard to eradicate the death penalty in this country not expanding it.

[Lorien]

157. They probably also support torture

we're a bloodthirsty, vengeful Nation. We don't always think-we prefer to react instead. If the death penalty had been imposed for child rapists then many children would feel responsible for the deaths of their fathers, uncles, and other sick family members who they love but who have victimized them (my own mother is one such victim). So there would be far fewer children reporting the crime, which would mean far fewer children getting the help that they need. The Supreme courts ruling was a sensible one.

[undergroundpanther]

163. Excuuuse me!

I want to see all child rapists put to death, but TORTURE?

No,Torture is WRONG ALWAYS. Because of the wounds it leaves in the soul.

Just kill the child rapists.Death is NOT the same thing as Torture, people.Death will stop them forever.

_ALL_Torture is wrong.DEATH is NOT the Same thing as TORTURE!!!
Child rapists are torturers.And they murder the innocent.
Killing Child rapists is NOT torture and it is NOT Killing an innocent.

The kind of murder child rapists do is from the inside out,the memories are time bombs exploding in the child's mind or teen's mind or adult's mind after the crime has passed and been denied..and justice also denied...Child rape is delayed murder via torture,and continued torture via PSTD until the victim suicides That is murder.The child was killed on the inside by the child rapist first,than tortured more because her mind and memories torture for years and so unable to cope the victim too often suicides fast like blowing their brains out or slow via addiction...And a child rapist caused it all,by his choice to destroy a child because he could...

When will you all GET IT,that child rapists are not innocents, they are not safe to co-exist around anybody and they cannot be cured.

Do NOT TORTURE THEM ,just simply Kill them.

[varkam]

169. Yeah, but there's this little thing called the constitution that you have to contend with.

That, and the thing that it says about cruel and unusual punishment. Pesky piece of paper, isn't it?

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JeanGrey]

239. Well said and well put. AND TRUE.

[JeanGrey]

238. Responsible? Oh ROTFLMAO you're killing me!

[Ian David]

11. If you believe that the death penalty deters people from committing murder...

... then having the death penalty for child rape simply encourages the rapist to leave no witnesses alive.

[skooooo]

15. Beyond that..

...we can't let the death penalty start creeping out and expanding for other crimes. Once that starts, it never stops.

[Ian David]

18. Spammers.

I support the death penalty for spammers.

Consider an average human lifespan to be 75 years, or 28,135 days or 657,450 hours.

Anyone who sends a spam that wastes a total of 657,450 man-hours to combat has just committed "virtual murder."

Thank god nobody in the government (apparently) agrees with me.

[frogcycle]

111. they used to hang horse thieves

i think they stopped, though

[zanne]

137. Exactly. That stopped. nt

[Dogtown]

199. Scalia

wants that brough back, though

[earthlover]

143. They used to hang pick pockets.....In England

....the most likely place to be pick pocketed was at executions. So much for deterrance of crime....

[Lorien]

158. Yep. Look at the Taliban for evidence of that.

The "Christian" right would like nothing better than to impose the death penalty for adulterers (except themselves, of course), fornicators, homosexuality, blasphemy, etc. etc. Child rape is heinous, no doubt about it, but putting people to death for it will only result in more children never reporting the crime, and more dead children. Neither situation is acceptable.

[onenote]

32. not sure of the logic of the "deterring rapists from killing their victims" argument

I'm an opponent of the death penalty and am glad that the court ruled the way they did. However, I'm not sure I follow the argument I've seen here on DU that applying the DP to child rape cases will encourage the rapist to murder their victims.

I guess I just don't see it as that likely that a child rapist will think that if they don't face the DP they should let the victim live, thereby making it more likely that they'll be caught and convicted (since there will be a living eyewitness) and sent to prison for life. A rapist that doesn't think he's going to get caught probably isn't any more likely to kill his victim regardless of the penalty. And a rapist that is worried about getting caught is likely to kill his victim to minimize that from happening, again without regard to what would happen to him if he's caught.

[varkam]

34. Think of it rationally:

if there is DP for child rape, then there is absolutely no incentive for letting the victim live.

[onenote]

38. Why wouldn't a rapist think: I have a lot less chance of getting convicted if I kill my victim

and I'm no fan of life in prison, which is what I face if I let the victim live, so I'll take my chances by killing the victim since I don't want to be caught and go to prison for life.

Are there statistics that show whether fewer child rape victims are killed in states that don't have the death penalty for child rape than in the states that (prior to today) did? That would be a signficant statistic I would think.

[varkam]

48. There are no such statistics.

...so I'll take my chances by killing the victim since I don't want to be caught and go to prison for life.

Undoubtedly some do think that, but the point is that you would have a lot more people thinking that killing their victim would be the best thing to do should the DP be imposed compared with a sentence of life in prison (though such sentences are rarely handed down - you're usually looking at maybe 10 years).

No one has been executed for the rape of a minor, AFAIK. Kennedy was the test case. One of the arguments that the state of LA put forward was that imposing DP for child rape was part of a growing trend as part of evolving moral standards (which the majority opinion rebuffed).

You can look at other crime stats, though, and see the the DP doesn't exactly have a deterrent value (take homicide rates in Texas, for example).

[JeanGrey]

240. With that logic, why wouldn't a rapist think: If I do this,

I will get the death penalty. Your logic is faulty.

[onenote]

244. I don't think so. I think the first consideration of most criminals is trying to avoid being caught

The more likely it is that they will be caught, the less likely they will act. If a criminal thinks that eliminating the only witness to the event will significantly reduce their chance of getting caught and punished, why wouldn't they take that step?

I guess the issue is whether killing the victim significantly reduces the chances of getting caught.

[JeanGrey]

275. I don't agree. If one could be the case they could easily

be distracted by the other.

[varkam]

251. You can see how well that has worked out for murder. eom

[DUlover2909]

49. Yeah there is, if the rapist wants to repeat the crime.

[varkam]

55. Or, he could just kill that victim and go find another one to rape and murder. eom

[Wizard777]

89. Not only that any survivors would be viscously attacked by defense attorneys.

What about all those people that Oprah did a show on that were proved to have been falsely convicted molesting and raping children? But once you execute them it makes it pretty pointless to prove their innocense. The state gets to save face by using murder to conceal their crime of convicting the innocent.

[The Backlash Cometh]

Oh, I believe it does deter people from committing murder.

It reduces the number of crimes which people have time to plan it out.

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

73. My personal opinion of Obama just dropped.

[JoFerret]

131. Mine too

However - the alternative is way worse. But this was an unnecessary strike.

[shanti]

192. as i am too

as a black man in america, he should understand why the death penalty should be abolished emotionally, i understand where he's coming from tho...hmmmm

[Bandit]

215. It won't be the last time I will bet...

I remember how hog wild everyone was for Peloisi when she was elected Speaker. As soon nas she said she absolutely had to have the biggest fanciest office in Washington I knew we were screwed. I have very deep reservations about Obama. He wants to please the Republicans too damn bad..

[Donnachaidh]

2. ...

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[varkam]

3. Bad, IMO. I mean, it was inevitable...

that he was going to take a stand, but I just think that it is the wrong stand to take. I guess it was a done deal, though, given that DP is popular and that child molesters aren't exactly sympathetic characters - but I also think that the reasoning of the SCOTUS on this issue was sound. It's unfortunate that ideology would trump jurisprudence, but I guess that's politics for you.

[JoFerret]

132. There was wriggle room for him

(plenty considering the court decision). He chose not to take it.

[varkam]

171. Yes, but such wiggle room is nuanced and dressed in the finerys of the legal system.

Your average Joe isn't going to take the time to figure all of that out. All your average Joe is going to think is that Obama supports baby rapers. Hell, he's probably raped babies himself! :crazy:

[JoFerret]

176. So you are saying he was cowed into submission

by the spectre of such thinking? So much for courage if that is so.

and if he actually believes it then I am sorry to see him hold such illiberal views.

[varkam]

178. I'm saying (or what I am trying to say)...

is merely that it was a politically calculated move to win over people who object to the SCOTUS decision on purely emotional grounds while not having to take a firm stand on something that he would actually have to do.

[JoFerret]

182. It's very unfortunate

And an opportunity lost.

[JoFerret]

4. Very disappointing

.

[DesertRat]

5. I disagree

I am against death penalty in all cases. I believe in life in prison without possibility of parole.

[LostinVA]

76. Yup, me too

[Xipe Totec]

6. That's a cruel method of execution, don't you think? nt

[Drunken Irishman]

7. LOL

[Megahurtz]

130. Yeah really hahahaha

As if rape isn't a cruel method of torture.

[Tempest]

9. Is he aware of why the SCOTUS struck it down?

Or is this a knee-jerk reaction for trying to score political points?

[loveable liberal]

10. Obama scores with the Revenge crowd!

I doubt that will even come up when he's president and if it does he wont pay much attention to it. It is a heinous crime, but there is no excuse for execution IMO anyway...

[skooooo]

12. political points...?

You think that's why he's saying it?

[varkam]

13. Probably.

DP is popular overall, and child rapists aren't sympathetic characters. Coming down hard on people who do things like that is usually a safe political move. It's like saying that you support education or health care - it's a win-win.

[AllHereTruth]

16. I personally hope not...but my gut tells me yes.

[earthlover]

144. Well....of course!

This is very disappointing.

[Windy]

17. RoveCo would have ripped him a new one with a different position.. remember Dukakis and the "What if

it was your wife?" bruhaha


Certiori was granted by the Supremes at this time probably based upon a request from the repubs, this and the 2nd amendment, to influence the election.

Obama has fought in Ill to have prisoners released who were wrongfully accused. There is a lot of nuance here

[skooooo]

19. Sure would..

...unfortunately, this is how politics is played.

[Carrieyazel]

67. They tried that on Tim Kaine in Virginia in 2006. Backfired.

[Rowdyboy]

25. I'm glad someone else remembers.....

I'm not willing to lose this election defending child rapists. They're not worth 4 years of John McCain.

[varkam]

26. Minor point:

the SCOTUS wasn't defending child rapists, or the act of child rape. They were merely saying that the application of DP for child rape falls outside of the bounds of the constitution.

[depakid]

37. And so it follows therefore, under the "Obama doctrine"

that the state can constitutionally impose the death penalty for other heinous (or maybe not so heinous) crimes other than murder.

Perhaps, as his buddy from Oklahoma wants- for physicians who perform abortions.

Once you get into this territory, reason inevitably succumbs to the slippery slope.

[varkam]

52. That's one of my problems with it, too.

The state's argument in the decision was that the sentence imposed on Kennedy was part of a growing trend that involved evolving moral standards. Who gets to set those moral standards, and consequently the crimes for which one can be murdered?

[depakid]

75. The Court should have dispensed with the entire matter via the 8th Amendment in the Furman case

in 1972 and brought the US in line with all the other western nations.

A big mistake, in retrospect.

[Rowdyboy]

45. I understand and can certainly see the court's viewpoint.....

But I can't fault Obama for disagreeing. IMHO from a political standpoint he had little choice.

[varkam]

51. I agree with you.

I think that it was politically prudent. I think that it is unfortunate, but then again I think politics is a dirty business.

[earthlover]

150. Bull! Tell that to someone wrongfully convicted of rape.....

Well...er....you are wrongfully convicted of rape and all....but they really didn't have a choice politically but to kill you and watch you die.

What ever happened to an eye for an eye?

Seems like this is beyond that standard....

[Carrieyazel]

78. You've already forgotten Tim Kaine? He took it to them on this, and got elected in VA.

[Rowdyboy]

104. I have no doubt that it can be done, I'm just not willing to take any chances....not this time

There's too much at stake. This supreme court is one justie away from being totally lost for a generation.

JMO

[earthlover]

151. Ironic arguement in support of someone disagreeing with a decent Court decision....

[Rowdyboy]

154. I've found that life is frequently sadly ironic....however my personal priority

is clear to me. Losing the supreme court is losing the whole game. They hold the future in their hands: abortion, privacy rights, civil rights, gay rights-they determine everything. I want a Democrat elected and there's only one available-I'm not interested in tearing him down or questioning his integrity right now.

[earthlover]

181. So the supreme court is to be saved by someone who disagrees with a good decision?

For political gain?

Well, hmmmm.....Wasn't it one of Obama's opponents who/....for political gain....supported the IWR?

If it is political gain to the contrary, would Obama fight for the principles of "abortion, privacy rights, civil rights, gay rights"?

I doubt it. He goes against a good Supreme Court decision that opposed extending the gross evil of capital punishment even further into our society for political gain. Who on Earth is so friggin naive to doubt that, if the political winds blew the wrong way, he would throw the rights of aborton, privacy, and gay rights under the same bus as oppositiion to FISA and capital punishment?

I am an Obama supporter. But he is sounding less and less like meaningful change.

He wants to get elected. Something else he shares in common with McCain.....

I am sorry, but capital punishment is a moral issue. You shouldn't support death for political points. That is immoral, barbaric and sick. How can anyone who worships in a Christian church support the practice that killed their savior? Obama struck out on the capital punishment issue in my view. Pandered to what the masses would want. The crowd says "free Barrabas". Obama says that is cool....

This scares me.

[Rowdyboy]

184. You are more than welcome to your moral position....

I personally am tired of having the better candidate and still losing. McGovern in 1972, Carter in 1980, Mondale 1984, Dukakis 1988, Gore 2000 and Kerry 2004-thats enough morality for me.

Again, I'm one lousy voter.I'm not preaching my view, I'm not trying to convince anyone-its just how I feel. Morals are too expensive to me-I'm 54 and I want as much as I can get of my country back in this lifetime.

[earthlover]

185. Good luck with immorality. I see this as a form of prostitution. Except prostitues are more moral

They are at least honest

[earthlover]

149. You have a point...except...Obama didn't have to say this

[Rowdyboy]

152. You've watched the same Republican party I have for the last 8 years....The decision

is too controversial-it had to be addressed and defused at once. It would have been VERY easy to define Obama as an extreme liberal more worried about the rights of evil rapists than innocent children. Do you think Karl Rove et al would have let this perfect chance to smear our nominee pass without acting on it? This is a crucial time-many Americans haven't even tuned in yet. Obama doesn't need this particular fight-IMHO.

I honestly don't see where he had much choice.... :shrug:

[earthlover]

186. One choice would be to shut the f*** up!

Why take a stand...against the supreme court....against a moral principle that the supreme court actually supported? For votes? Oh...explain that to those who die. Explain that to how our society just gets sicker and sicker as we dehumanize ourselves to support capital punishment for crime after crime. Hey...shop lifting is really BAAAAADDDDD!!!! Hang em high! Sarc.

Sorry, but I see signs that Obama will just say anything to get elected. And he will do anything to get reelected. just like ..... anyone....I guess. How is he CHANGE? How can he support killing people for political gain and say he is morally different in any way than the politicians who voted for the IWR for political gain? I am sick and tired of politicians feeling the need to friggin kill in order to further their transparent careers.

The essential question I have for supporters of capital punishment is whether we should electrocute those who will premeditatedly kill prisoners convicted of a crime, or should we electrocute all those who applaud and vote for those who support such a barbaric practice, or all of the above? In what way is it more or less moral to premeditatedly murder a convicted criminal than to murder the executioner who premeditatedly murdered the criminal? Murder is murder. Premeditated murder is premediated murder. Should we have premeditated murder against the person whose crime is not murder, but rape? And...let's get things straight...the person is probably, but not certainly, guilty....

SICK. MORALLY. EVIL.

[rpannier]

72. Difference is...

Dukakis was asked that question in a debate (by Shaw of CNN) and his answer was incredibly cold and wanting of any emotion.

There are better ways to address issues like this, former Gov Cuomo was very good at it.

Also, in reading the article it is unclear why he was addressing this issue.

[JoFerret]

140. This was one piece of r/w bait

he was not obliged to adopt or equivocate on.

[earthlover]

148. Trying to appeal to both sides of the issue, I guess....

Expanding the death penalty....along with its possible wrongful convictions....to a whole new class of crimes is not at all wise.

It is just as easy, and probably more so, to wrongfully convict an innocent man of rape as it is murder.

[Mad_Dem_X]

218. Exactly

He'd be damned if he did, damned if he didn't on this position.

[JoFerret]

223. Quick.....let's run from every potential r/w Rove attack

run. hide. bow down. quake. give in.

Someone else on this thread comments that Obama can give a n eloquent response to the "Dukakis" question.

I believe so too. there has been plenty of time to prepare it after all.
But the issue is - you have to want to deliver it!

[JohnnyCougar]

189. Obama scores one with the not losing to McCain crowd!

Seriously. I want to win this election, people!

[Demeter]

14. This Looks Like a Play Out of Gingrich's Political Game Book

Support something that lost in the Supreme Court. You win all the disappointed voters, and as it has no chance of ever happening, you don't lose the righteous folk who welcomed the decision, either.

[skooooo]

20. I don't like it much...

...but I'm glad Obama knows how to play the game. I'd rather win this time around.

[heliarc]

47. Hear, f'n hear! nt

[keep_it_real]

21. I agree with Obama that is a heinous crime

I only favor the death penalty in special cases and that crime is a special case in my book.

[varkam]

23. What about some of the ancillary the reasoning of the SCOTUS?

Namely, that it would drive the problem further underground, that you would end up with more dead kids, and that it doesn't send a message to rape victims that is conducive to healing (i.e. you might as well be dead yourself).

In addition, the majority of rape victims are raped by family members or acquaintances of the family. Would you want to execute someone over the objection of the victim (or other family members)?

[superconnected]

175. And guess what brains? That exactly the crime that will be used to get

rid of peoples rights and instill executions for any crime the state feels is against it.

It always starts with the child molesters. They just bring out the blood thirst in supposedly civilized people such as yourself.

You just bought in. Now careful you don't choke on all that koolaide you're swallowing.

[Rowdyboy]

24. Obama would be crucified in his first debate for supporting child rapists if he said anything else

Sorry you're all so disappointed but he did what he needed to do. You don't get very far with the public defending sick men who sexually molest children, regardless of the ethics of the death penalty.

[merwin]

28. He could simply answer that he supports life without parole, and does not support executions under

any circumstances.

I think that would suffice. How is that position supporting child rapists?

[Rowdyboy]

71. Its the sort of "issue" Republicans are expert at using to divert attention from real issues

and paint their opponents as "not one of you", someone who doesn't care about raped children but instead defends the slime that savaged them. Thats exactly how they would frame the issue and they would box him into the same corner they boxed Michael Dukakis in. I don't want to lose another election over diversions like school prayer, flag-burnig, the pledge of allegiance etc. Not this time. We have too much to lose.

JMO.

[anitar1]

27. Thank You , Obama.

These child rapists do not deserve to live, imo. I am suspicious of people who condone preying on children. Children are treated like 3rd class citizens in the world while rapists get away with it. Few years in jail, lots of "rehab" , then they are released to rape or kill again.

[varkam]

35. Who condones preying on children?

:crazy:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Probably the entirety of Western Europe, and almost all the Americas

(sans USA, Cuba, Guatemala and some other tiny islands)

After all, BEING AGAINST THE DP = LOVING CRIMINALS!!!1111!!!1log(e)11!!

[varkam]

165. Ah, I see.

Apparently, if one is not for the most violent, bloody, inhumane, barbaraic treatment one can think up, then one is probably a criminal themselves.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

172. And that poster didn't answer your question. Hello, Mr./Ms. anitar1, varkam asked you a question.

Hello? HELLO?

[varkam]

180. Mine was a rhetorical question.

It was just meant to point out that being opposed to giving the DP to child rapists is not equivalent to condoning their behavior. It was a rather sloppy straw man that the poster tossed out, and I pounced on it.

[rpannier]

92. And I can make that same arguement with any category of criminal behavior

Arson, robbery, etc.

At what point do you draw the line?

Once you blur that line you open the door to new opportunities for new laws "to make you safer"

as a point: One DUer posted here about a year ago that according to the DOJ the recidvism rate for people convicted of sexual crimes is no greater than any other crime.

[depakid]

29. Yet another indication that Obama sold progressives a bill of goods

I've never been impressed with his legal judgment- going back to his decision to cross over and vote with Republicans on so called class action "reform" and his criticism of the Alito filibuster that denigrated the role of Congress in advice and consent.

Either that- or like Clinton, the man will say anything and pander to the right (or the fundies) in order to get elected. Maybe both.

My prediction: if he manages to get elected, anyone expecting more than the lesser of two evils is going to be profoundly disappointed, and like 1994- the Dems will suffer losses in 2010 because of it.

[LiveLiberally]

30. I disagree w/him on this but he is at least consistent in his position.

See below:

"While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes--mass murder, the rape and murder of a child--so heinous that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment. On the other hand, the way capital cases were tried in Illinois at the time was so rife with error, questionable police tactics, racial bias, and shoddy lawyering, that 13 death row inmates had been exonerated."

Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p. 58 Oct 1, 2006

As someone against capital punishment, I take some consolation in the fact that Obama is well-aware that the "ultimate punishment" has too often been the ultimate injustice & hence contrary to constitutional law.

[wellst0nev0ter]

108. Let's Rewind.

" On the other hand, the way capital cases were tried in Illinois at the time was so rife with error, questionable police tactics, racial bias, and shoddy lawyering, that 13 death row inmates had been exonerated."

The fact that the defendant in this case is a black male, and the fact that I'm pretty sure he was NOT the only person in the state of Louisiana to have brutally raped a child, makes me question why he supports the death penalty in this case.

Ho well, at least he avoided another Willie Horton ad :eyes:

[LiveLiberally]

162. Good Point!

Given his stated prior position and current political exigencies, Obama is between a rock and a hard place on this issue. But like you, that doesn't make me like it any better.

[Zuiderelle]

31. No capital punishment for any reason whatsoever is the humane position.

Instead of making it ok to kill people, how about standing on the position that offenses such as that will warrant life without parole, without exception? What's so difficult about that. Why is it easier to kill someone?

This is disappointing, but it's politics I guess.

[GOPNotForMe]

33. I agree completely! nt

[LostinVA]

79. 100% Agree

It's THE only real thing Haruka and I disagree on.

[keep_it_real]

80. When someone perpetrates a in-humane act

On another human being they deserve whatever they get, in-human or not, they forfeit "human" consideration.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. Soyou condone torture specifically crafted to last as long as possible in a public square?

After all, "whatever they get" may mean anything.

[ohio2007]

90. Thats how the Taliban doled out justice and still do today

Pakistani Taliban Cited in 22 Slayings

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — The bodies of 22 members of a government-sponsored peace committee were found dumped near South Waziristan on Wednesday after fighting broke out between the Pakistani Taliban and a rival tribe, government officials said.

The peace committee was attacked by supporters of Baitullah Mehsud, the head of the Pakistani Taliban....



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/world/asia/26pstan.html


No justice

no peace

Know justice
Know peace

I could be wrong though.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

97. Exactly. That's what happens when you decide that mob bloodthirst must be satisfied. -nt

[Marrah_G]

284. Of course the Taliban generally stone the victim to death and the Rapist goes free........

Unless of course the victim can find 4 males to say they witnessed her being raped. Otherwise...she is just a whore who needs stoning.

[varkam]

183. Here's the thing, though:

an animalistic act does not make one an animal. There is a difference between the acts that people commit and the simple fact that they are a member of this human race. To take a single act, and to use that to condemn the whole of a persons being would, in my mind, require the omniscience that none of us could possibly posses.

People can do terrible things, and I'll be the first to admit that. That, however, does not give us the right to then turn around and treat them however we feel would sate our need for vengeance the best. That is why we have things like the constitution and the court system - so that we are not reduced to mob violence and naked retribution. So that we, the people, have a moral leg to stand on when judging and punishing people for their crimes. Otherwise, what exactly would be the difference between "us" and "them"?

[Zuiderelle]

224. Morality aside, would you not consider any of the consequences of such a thing?

There is no such thing as "beyond a doubt" and "reasonable" is very subjective. We have thousands of people in prison who were wrongly convicted, and many released since being imprisoned having proven that they were wrongly convicted.

Are you willing to murder someone, and then find out later that they were not actually guilty of the crime?

Are you willing to have more children murdered because the rapist doesn't want a witness to his crime, and since the penalty is the same anyway?

Are you willing to allow for the FACT that some people will be executed despite the FACT that they are innocent?

Why is life in prison not enough for people? Why can't we work to ensure that they don't get out, instead of continuing to try to justify murder?

[Owl]

36. Good.

[ileus]

39. another reason to vote for him...n/t

[depakid]

40. Certainly for Virginians

who LOVE their executions.

[Carrieyazel]

68. Yet, they voted in Tim Kaine, who OPPOSES the death penalty.

You've got to do better than that.

[depakid]

85. Virginia is second only to Texas in executions since 1976

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=186

[PlanetBev]

41. I'm a strong Obama supporter

but I call bullshit on this one.

If he said anything else, the McCain camp would score immediate points over him.

[mahina]

42. That's what the death penalty is for.

You all can tell me how uncivilized I am all you want. Rape, and killing, of children should result in the perpetrators' deaths in my view.

So, good.

[atreides1]

53. Does that apply to the military as well

Or would dropping bombs near an orphanage to hit a military target be a good enough reason to kill children?

In my opinion, it wouldn't, it would still be murder, or as the military likes to phrase it "collateral damage"!

[PaDUer]

274. Remember when * said...

families can not sue for anything done...they all get a pass and walk away..

[GOPBasher]

61. I, for one, agree with you. Let's get flamed together.

Yes, I have one issue that would be considered "conservative." Shoot me.

[Frisbee]

120. You're not alone...

When I look at my sweet innocent niece and nephew and imagine anyone doing something so horrible to them (or any other child who may be in that position), I agree that the DP is justified. While like abortion, the goal should be to make it as unnecessary as possible, there are times when I believe it is a valid solution/punishment and is justified. I know this is a terribly unpopular position on DU, but it is just what I believe.

[Carrieyazel]

74. No, the death penalty is for persons who have murdered another human being.

That's what it is.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. No, the death penalty is for people who were born Feb 31. -nt

[Tektonik]

43. political posturing

If he really believes that, then he can go fuck himself.

[fascisthunter]

46. stupid

let these criminals rot in jail.

[elocs]

50. Perhaps it is because his own daughters are 10 and 7.

When you have children you can see bad things that happen as happening to your own. When that Iraqi girl was raped and murdered by U.S. soldiers it was horrible, but even more so to me because my own daughter was 15 at the time.

Perhaps it is politics. Republicans tend to be more pragmatic about elections believing that the point of having them is to win. Democrats on the other had tend to believe that winning is actually overrated and that the important thing is to always remain noble and dogmatically pure in all of your decisions and stances. Of course, we can afford to sit on our righteous thrones and pontificate on every move Obama makes and every thing he says. We tend to salivate over the opportunity to partake in our favorite delicacy: "sliced and sauteed Democrat".

I agree with a previous poster that if Obama is in any way seen as not coming down hard on violent child rapists that he will be crucified for it. It's a moot point now since the SC ruled against it and Obama's real opinion on the subject would only come into play with the kind of justice(s) he would appoint to the SC.

[knixphan]

283. MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY.

Can we get the guy elected before we sautee him?

Pretty please?

[frog92969]

54. Very good

All violent predators should be eliminated for the good of the species and the planet.
People capable of these things won't be "rehabilitated", I call BS on that.
Life in a cage is cruel and unusual punishment, I feel no need in making somebody suffer forever no matter what they've done.
If they're waiting to die in a cage aren't they already dead?

[varkam]

58. DoJ would disagree with you.

Sex offenders tend to have a low recidivism rate...lower than other types of criminals...even lower if given access to treatment.

Life in a cage is cruel and unusual punishment, I feel no need in making somebody suffer forever no matter what they've done.
If they're waiting to die in a cage aren't they already dead?

So life imprisonment is cruel and unusual punishment, but murder isn't?

[frog92969]

101. It would depend on how it's done

But it's all quicker than life in prison.

Fifteen years ago I made that decision myself.
Facing double life I collected 100+ heart pills a fellow inmate refused to take, and saved them waiting for my trial. I had no doubts that I would choose pills and jail house wine over the cage, and if I failed I would spend every single day looking for a way to succeed.
(Interesting story-arrested twice after charges dropped, malicious prosecution, "mishandling" of evidence, prosecution's ballistics expert committed suicide after charges of corruption.)

As for the popular "wrongful conviction" argument, I'm fairly sure that the innocent suffer just as much as the guilty, and their life is just as over.

Maybe we should give all lifers an option for execution, since their life is over already I think many would want to make it official. As for child rapists, is there really any reason to give them our food and air?

[frogcycle]

116. nope

"As for child rapists, is there really any reason to give them our food and air?"

We have 6.5 Billion people on this planet. A reasonable number would be about 3 Billion.

Coddling pedophiles is amoral, immoral, and stupid.

[varkam]

164. Of course there is.

As for child rapists, is there really any reason to give them our food and air?

As I said, most such individuals are family members, and most don't repeat their crimes. There's a difference between the act and the person.

[frog92969]

190. That wasn't my experience

Six family members molested...that I know of.
My sister "forgot" how to walk and talk for almost a year.

That could be the case in my wife's family though I don't know, I don't ask her about it.

I don't understand why anyone would give these monsters a second thought much less apologize for them. If we're ever going to civilize the human race these throw backs are best left behind.

[L0oniX]

56. Geeze ...I am against the death penalty. Thanks for another disappointment.

[Phred42]

57. He's going to vote FOR the FISA bill and FOR Executions?

Interesting.

So what other republican stuff will he turn up supporting?

[DesertRat]

141. And the MSM keeps telling us how Liberal he is.

He doesn't look that way to me. But then, I voted for the only real Liberal in the race. Dennis Kucinich.

[Phred42]

226. He's not all that Liberal

There are very few Progressive or liberal Dems in the Senate as this chart will demonstrate
Keep in mind that this is a REVERSE Scale. The Progressives and Liberals - the real Democrats are at the bottom

http://www.kirkusobscura.com/index.php?view=article&catid=37%3Aamericonia-news-and-information&id=52%3Athe-red-and-green-parties-senate&option=com_content&Itemid=11

K

[high density]

59. I guess he just avoided a Bernard Shaw question

Smart man.

[Guaranteed]

60. Well, that's the first truly moronic thing I've heard him say. nt

[Flagg]

62. The death penalty hurts the image of the US abroad.

wether it is justified or not

[rpannier]

63. I'm Extremely Disappointed

I hope this is not going to turn into an exercise in saying what is politically expedient.

[Carrieyazel]

64. I believe Obama really DOES agree with the decision, so he had to have lied today.

Bad, really bad. Some quick thinking pandering to what he thinks is the answer that won't get him in trouble, regardless of his true conviction.


He was asked a question that threw him off-guard, Obama thinks in his mind, "what do I say so that it can't be used against me; Oh, I've got to say "disagree", that's the safe answer" and so he gave his absurd response, agreeing with Scalia, Thomas et. al and disagreeing with the other 5. He outsmarted himself.

Looks like Obama is going John Kerry on us. If that's the case, he's in for trouble.

[PaDUer]

276. As has been said...

nobody really knows who he is..well, now we're finding out. I'm sure there's lots more to come..As we get closer to the election, if we have one, a lot more interesting info on both nominess will be coming out..Can you imagine getting 2 new candidates at the conventions..

[galledgoblin]

65. Obama knows the Consitution and should know better

he shouldn't make statements like this, he needs to clarify how he defines "heinous".

[southern_belle]

66. I think Obama is right

The rape of a small child, is the death of innocence of that child. Pedophiles can't be cured. I have NO sympathy for the rapist. Cruel & Unusual Punishment!!!! R U Fu*KING KIDDING ME????

This is a subject that makes me nauseated. :rant:

[Carrieyazel]

70. Then put the pedophile in a narrow cell, along with a BIG

guy, also convicted for rape, for the rest of his life. That's a punishment worse than death.

[Dogtown]

202. Another prison-rape enthusiast

At least one post like this in every/prison/DP/child molestation case.

Is it an emotional compulsion that forces you guys to post on this horror?

The US needs safe prisons, not schools of depravity.

[rpannier]

88. And I am grateful

That you are not a justice on the United States Supreme Court.

In the abswnce of it's abolition, the Death Penalty is something that should be applied in extremely rare cases.
Your "I have NO sympathy for..." statement shows that you are letting emotion guide your decision making skills on this issue and that's a dangerous place to be.
The emotional arguments have left us with dubious, though popular laws (at the time), like 3 strikes, mandatory drug sentencing, laws allowing the execution of minors as young as 13-15, etc.

If you're nauseated now, think what OTHER heinous acts might be next that states would enact...
Rape, kidnapping, torture, associating with terrorists????

Dismiss my previous comment all you want, but 12 years ago, very few people would support what this administration has done in the name of protecting you and me from danger.

Fear sells. The Supreme Court put the brakes on legislators who are comfortable climbing up the mountain of 'popular causes' and the skeletons of 'unpopular people' to reach the next level of power.

[AllHereTruth]

265. QFT

That you are not a justice on the United States Supreme Court.

In the abswnce of it's abolition, the Death Penalty is something that should be applied in extremely rare cases.
Your "I have NO sympathy for..." statement shows that you are letting emotion guide your decision making skills on this issue and that's a dangerous place to be.
The emotional arguments have left us with dubious, though popular laws (at the time), like 3 strikes, mandatory drug sentencing, laws allowing the execution of minors as young as 13-15, etc.

If you're nauseated now, think what OTHER heinous acts might be next that states would enact...
Rape, kidnapping, torture, associating with terrorists????

Dismiss my previous comment all you want, but 12 years ago, very few people would support what this administration has done in the name of protecting you and me from danger.

Fear sells. The Supreme Court put the brakes on legislators who are comfortable climbing up the mountain of 'popular causes' and the skeletons of 'unpopular people' to reach the next level of power.

QFT - Powerful, True, Accurate.

[Fluffdaddy]

69. Good way to move to the center. I like the way BO plays the "game"

[Jack_DeLeon]

77. Way to go Obama...

I agree with him.

[FarCenter]

81. I'm with Obama on this one

If the crime is well defined, if the identity of the perpetrator is certain, and if the penalty is applied the same way to all perpetrators, then execution is constitutional and appropriate.

[dysfunctional press]

83. well that's certainly a sad turn of events...

you'd think that a senator from illinois of all places would have a less carefree attitude about state murder.

[colt equalizer]

91. I am against him on this one. Slippery slopes

I heard him on the press interview and was stunned by his answer that he disagreed with the decision. It makes me bet after he is elected he could put someone on the court that is a centrist and govern from the center until 2012 and the next round of elections.

[Wizard777]

98. Bush wanted control of the national guard so he have them gun down the people for property crimes.

This was durring Katrina in NOLA. This is the question you need to ask yourself. Do you think the Rich & powerful value your life more than their property? Just like a person. Once you've lost a buck you can never ever get it back. Death penalty for property crimes!

[dysfunctional press]

126. i guess i'm still hoping that he'll campaign to the center...but govern from the left.

:sigh:

[Dogtown]

204. Plant that seed

if you water it and feed it enough shit, it may grow into a wedge issue.

the man was set up w/ a "no right answer" question; he could get slammed for a "weak liberal" or provide a snack for the hysterical and let it blow over (it's not like he'll promote legislation in this cause).

Neocon agitators want to spin gold out of this straw, though. They'll want to suggest he's a closet centrist who'll betray us with bad Supreme nominees.

You won't get any traction with that crap here.

:eyes:

[Wizard777]

93. This has me thinking. Does Obama think he can expand conservative platforms.......

because he owns our liberal asses lock, stock, & barrel? He's going 180 degrees the wrong way on the death penalty.

[Carnea]

94. Yeah unfortunately people are falsely accused and convicted of this.

Stop fucking pandering your going to win.

[Bjorn Against]

95. I have to disagree with him on this one, the death penalty is always wrong

It is wrong to give the state the right to murder anyone no matter how vile their crime. For one thing the chances of an innocent person being killed are far to great, for another it has been shown that the death penalty does not deter anyone from committing the crimes in the first place, and third I believe the death penalty is a violation of Constitutional protections against cruel and unusual punishment. I mean if killing someone is not cruel and unusual punishment then what exactly is cruel and unusual punishment?

[quaker bill]

115. if killing someone ...

Apparently causing them to suffer in the process.

I am on your side here and entirely agree, but honestly, basing an argument for abolition of the death penalty on the notion of unfairness to child rapists will simply lose us another election.

While I would tend to side with the SC here, they, being unelected, are the only ones who can do this politically. While I, like you, am totally convinced that the penalty is wrong and immoral, I understand that there are real people in this world whose lives and crimes make the opposite argument very effectively. One cannot make a winning argument out of any sense of sympathy or caring for them.

The argument needs to be made on the basis on what the penalty says about the rest of us, our character as human beings. Do we seek justice or vengance?

[Bjorn Against]

121. The argument is not about child rapists, it is about humanity

Everyone can agree that child rape is a horrible crime and no one that I know of is complaining about child rapists being treated unfairly. The argument is not about unfairness, it is about basic human decency. It is about saying that we don't sink to their level, we don't kill people out of vengeance, it is about saying that we consistently stand for basic human rights even when it is politically inconvenient to do so.

The fact is that most people who would be upset if Obama opposed the death penalty are not going to vote for him anyways, sure there are definitely a lot of death penalty supporters who support him but I doubt very many of them would change their vote on the issue of the death penalty. If he were to take a stand on principle he could articulate that stand very well and I think people would respect him for it.

[quaker bill]

196. I agree on the death penalty

However, I think your read of the political tea leaves is incorrect. While nationally the death penalty gains less support in polls than it has in decades, it still commands a majority. However, it is more important to remember that a run for President is less a national race than it is 50 separate state races held on the same day. When looked at state by state, it is very unlikely that a candidate for President could earn a majority of electoral votes through opposition to the death penalty.

Opposition to the death penalty is perfect fodder for a series of "Willie Horton" type ads, which when run in the battleground states, could easily tip the balance. While neither you or I would argue for the welfare of child rapists and murderers, our opposition would be painted in this way, and a great many people would buy it.

While you and I agree that this is change that needs to happen, I find it far more likely to happen once the Whitehouse and a governing majority are secured in the House and Senate. Used as a platform position, it is a formula for defeat, which means no change happens.

[Carrieyazel]

96. This isn't going to help him in Wisconsin, which is not a death penalty state.

[stillcool]

99. How about torturing them to death?

that way our justice system can practice on how far is too far. After all, if they die, than we know it's torture. If they live, it's okey-dokey.

[Seen the light]

100. This is a non-issue. His FISA stance on the other hand.... n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

102. I am ok with his decision....

but they better be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Kids are extremely impressionable. All it would take for a pissed off Ex-wife to see her ex-husband put to death, would be to get the kid to put fourth false accusations.

[babylonsister]

103. How about "Obama supports severe punishment for child rapists?"

I am of two minds with this; seems to give rapists a pass. I can see where he's coming from; he has two little girls and is probably projecting how he'd feel if anyone ever raped them.

[AmyCamus]

Good, savvy political move. He's taken a popular position that he won't ever have to support.

And he's on record against the SC, too. Smart guy.

[LaurenG]

105. Remember Dukakis?

He was asked if his wife were raped would he support the death penalty. He said no and paid hell for it. I don't believe in the death penalty but I do think this was the easy answer and least likely to give "the others" fire power. :(

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/tvguide_debate/content.asp?page=bush

1988 | Bush | Dukakis
The 1988 face-offs between Vice President George Bush and Democrat Michael Dukakis (right), followed a rough-and-tumble campaign, in which crime and prison furloughs were key issues. In their second debate, CNN's Bernard Shaw asked bluntly, "Governor, if (wife) Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?" Dukakis offered a passionless, wonkish response that played into Bush's assertion he was an out-of-touch, technocratic liberal.

edited to add link

[Bennyboy]

106. I am very disappointed in this.....

I am anti-death penalty, mostly due to the economic effects, but this would be the easiest type of case to manipulate. Aren't all child predation cases "child rape"? We would never stop executing people. Should the hundreds of priests that molested (raped) the kids all be put to death?
I am very disappointed. Beyond belief actually.

[Politicalboi]

138. Yes they should

Especially since they are priests. Disgusting pieces of shit as far as I am concerned. They used their system and the guilt of God to cover their crimes and I would have no problem seeing a priest put to death for child molestation. Nor the Pope for helping them get moved to continue their sick practices. I was raised Catholic and had the pleasure to be at a church where child molester Father Michael Whimpy was at in the late 60's and early 70's.

[undergroundpanther]

156. Yes,

Those child raping priests need to DIE.

[Herman74]

107. I hope he's just taking this illogical position in order to get elected...

A punishment can certainly meet the "unusual" part of the "cruel and unusual" prohibition if it's out of proportion to the offense committed. Unsurprisingly, you'll have to look very hard to find any industrialized country that punishes child rapists with death. (Although most of such countries have abolished capital punishment anyway). You will, of course, find such punishments in places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc., but I doubt the U.S. wants to descend to that level. For even the U.S. doesn't execute rapists of adults (previous Supreme Court decision), and while the rape of a child is terrible, at least there is no chance of an unwanted pregnancy, as there would be if a young woman were raped.

[frogcycle]

117. H O L Y C R A P!!

"For even the U.S. doesn't execute rapists of adults (previous Supreme Court decision), and while the rape of a child is terrible, at least there is no chance of an unwanted pregnancy, as there would be if a young woman were raped."

Is this for real? Good lord, is this Herman person allowed out loose????

[latebloomer]

118. If he takes positions he secretly disagrees with in order to be elected

as people are suggesting with this and the FISA bill, what makes you think he will suddenly become progressive after he's elected?

The pressure will NOT cease then- but it will be the powers who control the government who will then try to control him.

[Dogtown]

207. pffft

nonsense. pure spin.

[Triana]

109. I agree with Obama. n/t

[customerserviceguy]

112. The simple fact is

we really don't execute for child rape. Nobody's gone to the gallows from it for over fifty years. Maybe they should, but that's besides the point after today's decision.

What we do face right now is the political backlash over the decision. Senator Obama was looking to get ahead of that firestorm. Can you imagine what would happen if McPain denounced the decision, and Sen. Obama supported it? You can kiss the entire Midwest, the Mountain West and the South goodbye.

And for what? The only thing that's going to bring back the death penalty for child rapists is a Constitutional Amendment. The one thing you had all better be worried about is the drive to get one. You think flag burning was an issue? That's nothing compared to child rape.

[Unvanguard]

113. I oppose the death penalty, but this is a good move politically.

Executions for cases other than murder are extremely rare; by taking this position, he prevents the Supreme Court decision from being used to paint his campaign as soft on child rapists.

[Duncan]

114. Don't harsh out on him.

It sounds like he is just saying the constitution does not prohibit states from having the death penalty for heinous crimes. As near as I can tell the constitution says nothing about the death penalty.

[IronLionZion]

119. Here's a link to the US Constitution if anyone wants it

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst.html

I oppose the death penalty in most cases and agree with the Supreme Court's reasoning when they made this decision. I don't know about the constitutional argument though. It seems like it's definitely open to interpretation.

[Politicalboi]

122. Good for Obama

Child rape is a life sentence for a child and the death penalty is not too extreme for these creeps. The circle must stop and these guys get out of jail too soon for their heinous crimes to do all over again to another child later.

[fbahrami]

123. 3 points

- Obama is a politician (as Rev. Wright pointed out). He'll say anything to get elected.

- It's irrelevent what Obama thinks - unfortunately he's being set up for the other guy to win.

- Let's talk about mass murderers first (over *1 million* killed in IRAQ).

The world already has a *low* opinion of the US unfortunately, but not because of the death penalty or gay marriage. These are distractions compared to what the US is doing in the world today.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

277. "The world already has a low opinion of the US unfortunately, but not because of the death penalty"

Speak for yourself.

The DP is THE thing that mars the image *I* have of the US (which is otherwise a good one). Even moreso that Bush's world-fucking antics, which after all depend heavily on WHO is in power. The US under Clinton was largely benign. I expect something similar from an Obama administration.

The death penalty, on the other hand, is something you people seemingly can't get enough of, regardless of the political winds. A presidential candidate can't even say he's against it or he'll lose! That is not the case anywhere else that I can think of.

[RaVeN_MeaD]

124. It's a shame Obama can't do anything about it either way...

death penalty is a state by state issue. At least that's what i've always been told.

[cyr330]

125. Uggh. How disappointing. . .

I am ANTI death penalty.

[dabenpb]

127. The problem with the death penalty

is that there is no recourse for mistakes. Yes, I know that there are endless appeals. But, once someone is put to death then the chance for freeing a railroaded individual or mistaken imprisonment goes to zero. There are many cases where someone has been in jail for over 20 years and then DNA testing proved them innocent. Having said this, I believe that life imprisonment (in more in more cases, solitary confinement for many of those years) is similar to torture and just as bad. But, we have to do something with criminals. There are no more empty continents.

[JerseygirlCT]

133. Bad

Maybe necessarily expedient, but bad. And disappointing.

[enlightenment]

134. Bad. I'd like a president who opposes the death

penalty on principle.

But I know that's just wishful thinking.

[DesertRat]

222. The only chance we had of that was Dennis Kucinich

But he was laughed out of the race for being too liberal. :(

[saigon68]

136. Lots of Love on this Thread

[Dogtown]

208. The agitators are out in force

Trying to twist this back and forth, desperately trying to forge a wedge issue.



Fucking carrion-eaters.

[JoFerret]

142. The death penalty is RACIST

ineffective as a deterrent and expensive.

[bluestateguy]

145. Well that will spare him from Republican attack ads

On this one issue.

[defendandprotect]

146. So . . . Obama is more RIGHT WING than this GOP r-w Supreme Court --- ????

I'm TWICE concerned about his opinion here because he teaches LAW . . .
Constitutional law --- !!!

Additionally, the death penalty should be done away with ---
let's join the rest of the world and say "NO" to more violence!!!

Sad, Obama ---
Bad, Obama ---

[lebkuchen]

205. Had the headlines read, "Obama agrees with the Supreme Court"

I don't see how that would have hurt him in the race. He thinks the Fairness Doctrine is a non-issue. So is agreeing with a very conservative Supreme Court.

[KamaAina]

147. I'm appalled to find out he supports executions at all

This is the great progressive candidate we've been longing for? :shrug:

Then again, it's not like McSatan's gonna try and run to the left of him on this, so it probably works as a cynical, run-to-the-center political move. :eyes:

[Inspired]

153. Politically expedient but still wrong. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

155. Good for Obama!!

Because being hurt in that way as a kid it drove me to try suicide several times (it's hard to kill a body )I am innocent but that asshole hurt me so bad I took HIS deserved death penalty and tried to kill myself,and I took his jail time as he ran free avoiding the feds.By jail time I have spent my youth, my young adult years when most people feel as if their futures are wide open, locked up in hospitals ,locked in solitary, put in restraints and sheet packs,and drugged up to the point I might as well have been dead.

Child rapists are ,dangerous to humanity and INCURABLE,Murder is mercy compared to the pain I dealt with and STILL deal with,I take psych meds and see a shrink and other therapies because of the greed and destructiveness of asshole child rapists.Child rapists DO need to be killed off.I would love to see pedophilia to be wiped out of the human race,but I know that's not likely.I can dream tho.I HATE all child rapists/molesters and I would be happy to inject the drugs,pull the switch, tie the noose and get rid of the pedophile pieces of shit.I have no moral qualms about killing off child rapists at all,and they deserve no kindness or pity either.Just pure hatred..
This is why..
Most perpetrators don't molest only one child if they are not reported and stopped.

Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims. (23)

An average serial child molester may have as many as *400 victims* in his lifetime.

IT IS ETHICALLY SOUND TO KILL CHILD RAPISTS.

http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp
http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1996061806.shtml
These child destroying monsters are TOXIC even to the DNA of those they victimize.
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/05/06/child.abuse.may.mark.genes.brains.suicide.victims

The supreme court has by their votes by proxy have endangered and ruined many more kids lives.Fuck the supreme court on this one,Child rape IS cruel but sadly not all that unusual anymore.
Maybe if it was one of THEIR grandkids their judgment might have been more compassionate twords the kids hurt than the child rapist monsters,But than again our stupid culture coddles the bullies and abusers and sneers at the victims and continually makes it difficult for justice to ever be served.

Child rapists *ARE* murderers, they just kill people slowly from the inside,until what is inside(memories trauma effects etc.)prompts the person who cannot cope to kill their own body,many people raped as kids NEVER become child rapists themselves, but many grow older and kill themselves or try to.Child rape is soul murder done very slowly.Child rape IS murder.

[Bluebear]

160. The death penalty is not progressive.

[Redstone]

161. Why are you here?

Redstone

[Marie26]

166. Bad

The death penalty is unacceptable.

[superconnected]

167. Very sad. I have a problem with the mentality that accepts this.

Obama disappoints me again.

I'm wagering that he won't be a crook one one-hundredth as bad as bush though.

[superconnected]

170. The real news is it failed the supreme court by 1 vote.

My what scary times we live in.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

177. Against.

[Buzz Clik]

179. "Obama supports rape executions"?!!! Bull fucking shit.

What total crap. He favors states' rights.

[earthlover]

187. "States Rights"? So did George Wallace

States Rights is the justification to oppose civil rights for blacks and others....

why the hell should we all have rights? just leave it to the states to decide...some will say you have rights, others oppose. Hey, if that is so good...why not throw out the 14th Amendment and leave it up to the states to determine whether the first 10 amendments have any meaning?

states rights is a republican position. Am I lost here?

[Buzz Clik]

197. ... as did Thomas Jefferson. Get a clue.

[Dogtown]

209. States rights

Is a legitimate and real concern that has been used as an excuse by cynical men to get away with local scams; however, it was an important issue in the time of the revolution.

The colonist had a very real fear of a central government so strong it could over-ride local issues; they were revolting against just such a government embodied in the british crown.

It's a very slippery concept, and must be carefully balanced. It is *not* a Republican position; it's only been used by unethical Republican politicians to continue oppressive controls.

The republicans are very good at torquing the meanings of phrases to cover their tracks or justify their questionable dealings. We haver to educate ourselves to see through their obfuscations.

[JVS]

212. You figured him out. He wants to bring back Jim Crow

:eyes:

[JohnnyCougar]

188. Oh, for god's sakes.

If Obama said he was against it, we would all be caterwauling about how stupid he is, and "Why did we nominate the next Dukakais?"

Good move, Obama. Losing to McCain shouldn't be part of your platform.

[superconnected]

195. Wrong. I would be applauding him.

Instead I'm rethinking him as someone who has the integrity to really lead this place.

Instead he is still the ABR vote - anybody but a republican...

I'm trying hard to like the guy. He seems likable, but between this and Nafta it appears he's dispicable ala hillary. Eventually he'll keep turning down the wrong road just like hillary, and liberman and it will be impossible to deny further.

[MrSlayer]

191. I agree with Barack 100% on this.

Child rapists and violent rapists of any sort should be executed.

[regnaD kciN]

194. First off, I'm opposed to capital punishment, period...

...so, on a fundamental level, I'm disappointed with Obama's position. Even though I have no real hope of any mainstream politician risking political suicide by opposing the death penalty in every case (the last one I know of was Michael Dukakis, and we all know what happened to him), I would still hope that our leaders would hold that execution should be out-of-bounds for any crime less serious than first-degree murder (and that includes any crime where no death resulted in the first place).

However, while I'm disappointed in the abstract, I must note just how canny this move is from a pragmatic standpoint.

The first point is that, essentially, Obama was given a "free play" on this one. Since the SCOTUS had already made their decision, there's nothing he could have said that would have changed the outcome. (For an equivalent situation, imagine if Bush had put on his "uniter" hat by condemning the SCOTUS decision stopping the Florida recount and handing him the Presidency. Even if he had "rejected and denounced" the ruling, it wouldn't have restarted the recount, or cost him the election -- it just would have made him look more generous and bipartisan.)

In other words, Obama could have responded with something like "I believe that anyone who rapes a child should be turned over to the mob to be tortured and executed in the most painful manner possible" and it would have meant nothing, because the SCOTUS had already ruled against the death penalty, thus the case was closed. But Obama made a much more nuanced objection, saying that he thought the death penalty should be "potentially" allowed for the most heinous of these crimes. Not for all or even most of them, but for an unspecified handful that were the most atrocious, disgusting, and sadistic. But it doesn't matter anyway, because the SCOTUS decision has ended all of them anyway.

So, in other words, Obama gets to polish his "tough on crime" credentials ("even tougher than the Bush-Reagan-appointed Supreme Court!"), present himself favorably to scared-to-death-of-crime moderates, keep McCain from boxing him into a "criminal-loving liberal" pigeonhole, while at the same time only endorsing the possibility of the death penalty for a small number of the hypothetical worst cases...and "hypothetical" they will remain, because of the SCOTUS decision.

I think it's quite possible to be disappointed that Obama didn't take a stand more in line with my own, while at the same time admiring the political jujitsu that allows him to position himself so as to preemptively derail any possible Republican efforts to play the Willie Horton card...and doing so using a case where he is and will be unable to change the decision anyway, no matter what his position. That tells me that any attempt to Swift-Boat Obama may turn out to be far more difficult than Republicans have been imagining.

[ravencalling]

198. Agree with Obama

I think child rapists should be put to death. My opinion. Not ashamed of it at all.

[Blue_Tires]

200. in theory, there should be nothing wrong with this, BUT

in practice, we all know it does not stand up to the scrutiny of false accusations, kangaroo courtrooms, the disproportionate application to people of color and/or those who cannot afford a decent defense...and of course, if this stands up, we are one very short step away from some uber red state wanting to kill abortion providers...Then "urban" drug dealers/users....Then "heathens who have not taken christ into their hearts...."

where does it end?

[lebkuchen]

201. Obama just thew in the towel on getting support from Europe

which has been opposed to the death penalty for a long long time. What next? Obama to encourage Germany and France to send troops to Baghdad?

[Dogtown]

213. what the hell?

Extrapolate much?

That leap of "logic" from a statement on a 1-time politicized question to a thesis on foreign policy seems to be missing some important stepping-stones.

No-one will believe this crap, so work a little harder at your straw-clutching.

[lebkuchen]

268. You're either against the death penalty or you're for it

Europe is against it. The entire continent thinks it's barbarian. People here, myself included, would like to see a leadership role taken in the US against the death penalty, for a change.

It isn't going to happen in the next four years, that's for sure.

It has nothing to do with "extrapolation," but I'm sure your dictionary got a work-out.

I had donated $150 to the dem party last night. I had donated a lot more two years ago. After this news, I'm fed up with donations to causes that I'm finding I don't support.

[Dogtown]

288. Ask for a refund.

You might get your buck-fiddy back. My guess is he'll win without your support.



I'm sorry if I used big words at you. I'll try to keep it to your level so it doesn't confuse you. Otherwise you might just call me a liberal elitist. And I just hate when you big rough guys act all mean to me. (It's not tactically advantageous to show a weakness, such as a limited vocabulary, in a discussion group. You may think it makes me look like a bully, but it isn't that tough a word and most of our members are quite literate.

I'd suggest you follow the pattern of your brothers and post laconically. Those one-liners that just deflect discussion without exposing yourself.

Also, whiney posts about withdrawing support or quitting DU are looked upon as histrionics and will not garner you the respect you crave.)

Again, "your" candidate was ambushed by a loaded question. He adroitly sidestepped the issue by referring to "states' rights" and diffusing the mine. (Hashing my metaphors a bit there, but you're not likely to spot that.)

If he answered it was a good ruling, he would be castigated by the hardliner democrats. If he stated it was right, McSockpuppet would tarbrush him with charges of being "weak", and extrapolate that to being weak on terrorism. (They did that w/ Carter and decriminalization, you'll remember.)

Some agitators are still trying to spin it though; they want to pretend that he should have walked right into that ambush. Won't work, we're not naive enough to require our candidates to commit seppuku.

Here's a link for you, Slick. Maybe it will help you parse an effective reply:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Main_Page

[Mike Daniels]

203. Life in prison would be sufficient for me

A person who rapes a child should never again be allowed to see daylight from beyond the walls of a prison.

[Politicub]

206. At least we know where he stands

It sound like something from Law and Order - "Crimes that are especially heinous."

I would rather see the death penalty go away, and view this case as important for chipping away at it. I don't agree with Obama's stance, but I appreciate his honesty in sharing his views.

[Alter Ego]

210. He's got two little kids around that age--it probably hits on a more

personal level for him.

[JVS]

211. I read it as he supports letting the states decide if that's a heinous enough crime to justify DP

[Zuiderelle]

227. Yes, he's big on letting the states decide things.

Inappropriately or not.

[JVS]

228. You're big on complaining about everything the nominee does.

inappropriately

[Zuiderelle]

229. Actually I'm not. There are two things now (formerly only one). Gay Marriage being left to states,

and now this. How the hell is it inappropriate to criticize these things?

[JVS]

230. See. You couldn't pass up the chance to issue another complaint.

[Zuiderelle]

231. Funny how you waffle. You said I complain about everything, I noted two things.

Try to stop exaggerating.

[JVS]

232. I'm sure you'll find more things to complain about.

Don't worry about it.

[Zuiderelle]

234. I have had only one until now. If he takes some other idiotic stand like this, then yes, I'm sure

I will object to it. Would it be better to just say "Yes, Mr. Obama, despite my own integrity and beliefs and desire for equality and a better world, since you are our nominee I will just accept everything you say."

[JVS]

235. I've seen you complain about which VP candidates he's considering, what pastors the RW douches...

have dug up, and plenty of other things. I don't think you support the nominee at all.

[Zuiderelle]

237. Sam Nunn only, because of his position on gay rights. See how consistent I am?

McClurkin is a blight on Obama, but again, it's related to Obama's positions on gay rights. I've always been very consistent on this. And since he won the nomination, I've also been very clear that I support him for president.

You're a funny guy, pretending that I've said "plenty of other things."

[JVS]

241. link to you claiming to support him for president?

[Zuiderelle]

242. Link to me saying "plenty of other things" about him?

Here's link saying that I will vote for him:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=76306&mesg_id=76354


I don't have a lot of time to go around finding them, you are free to search as much as you like, I've said it several times. You won't find ANYWHERE where I've criticized him on any issue except his position on gay rights.

[JVS]

243. That would be dredging up the primaries and I'm not going to do that.

Googling your handle and Obama though tends to bring up a lot of negativity if you want to check it out. Impressive yet sad really,

[Zuiderelle]

245. I've been consistent, and you continuing to insinuate otherwise is what's sad.

Well, annoying anyway. My ONLY criticism of Obama has been related to his position on gay marriage/rights. You have a very strange way of arguing, insisting on a link from me, but unable/unwilling to provide any links to back up your lies about me.

I will vote for Obama, despite his lack of support for my civil rights, and now despite his position on capital punishment which flies directly in the face of my morality. It's sad to see people like you willing to sell others down the river because of your blind devotion.

[JVS]

246. Have you ever tried this mind exercise

Imagine yourself expressing some kind of support for the nominee.


Now, you know the bit of criticism that you're about to add to even out the mix. Drop that part. Try it just once sometime. See how it feels.

[Zuiderelle]

247. Oh snap, how clever.

[AngryAmish]

214. it is spelled triangulation

[Mad_Dem_X]

216. I agree with him

I know I'm in the minority here, but the rape of a child is indeed a heinous crime, and worthy of execution. I'm glad Senator Obama is honest with his opinion, even though it's probably not going to be a popular one among many of his supporters.

[Politicub]

217. I just finished reading Faludi's "The Terror Dream"

And I must say it is incredibly illuminating for how events unfolded after 9/11, and continue to unfold today.

According to Faludi, America has an ongoing mythology that establishes a victim, usually a woman, and a male rescuer. She uses several examples from 18th and 19th century "captivity narratives," and how publishers and the media changed them to reflect this weak woman/strong man protector dynamic.

Faludi's research shows that America continues to live our this drama from year to year, and the specter of rape plays an important part because it can so easily be used to evoke a visceral response from the public.

I am doing an incredibly inarticulate job of explaining my point, but this case is being flogged to set up the weak victim/male protector dynamic. And from that perspective, it makes sense that Obama would leverage America's "Terror Dream" because he has nothing to lose here from showing aggression.

[Fluffdaddy]

219. Good move to the center. I like the way BHO plays the "game"

As I HRC supported I did not think BHO could win in the general. But he's beginning to show me he knows what must be done

RUN TO THE CENTER.............. DLC Style

[ryanmuegge]

225. Wait. He supports excuting a rape or killing rapists?

I don't know that I'm necessarily for the latter.

Looks like he's trying to show the West Virginia and Ohio crowds that he's no Dukakis-style pussy, I guess. He's trying to show that he's a badass. Pretty soon he'll come out and say he's for dropping nukes on Iran and he wants to double the size of Gitmo. Obama the pander bear. Who would have thought it?

Personally, I feel extending the death penalty beyond murder is a very slippery slope.

[Fluffdaddy]

233. Showing that he's no "Dukakis-style pussy", Yup you get it my friend

Very smart move on his part. And it cost him nothing.

[Rudyabdul]

249. Obama is thinking like a father...

of 2 young daughters.

I'm against executing rapists. However, I am all for putting him in a maximum security prison and letting the inmates have a go at him 24/7.

[Bluebear]

254. 'letting the inmates have a go at him' - so you encourage prison rape as a punishment.

Wonderful.

[Rudyabdul]

269. I dont have to encourage anything that's going to happen anyway.

Rapists and child molesters have always got raped the first night.

[truebrit71]

250. I do too...in fact i think the parents of the victim get to choose how those fucking animals die...

..anyone who doesn't get that is just plain fucked in the head...

We are talking about "mercy" for people that rape children...

Those fuckers need to die a very slow and VERY painful death...

[iverglas]

259. "We are talking about "mercy" for people that rape children..."

Maybe you are. I'm not.

I'm talking about fundamental human rights. The right to life being one of the biggies.

Anybody looked up "inalienable" in a dictionary lately? ("Unalienable", as some in the US may prefer.)

Can't be taken away. Can't be "forfeited", as some like to put it in these cases.

Need one hell of a good reason to violate fundamental human rights.

"Because you're a bad person and I really really hate you" generally isn't one.


.anyone who doesn't get that is just plain fucked in the head...

Yeah. Kinda like some of the Canadians around here -- say something like that on a truly progressive forum in Canada or the UK, and it would be seen for the ... er ... just plain not progressive shit it is.

[truebrit71]

261. You give up those rights if you perform those acts....progressive or not I don't fucking care...

...rape a child you get to die. Dead. Fucking. Simple.

What about the "fundamental rights" of the victim...they don't matter?

Fuck that noise.

We are not talking about a husband killing a wife in the heat of an argument, or a fight were the injuries are so severe they cause death...we're not talking about grey areas here....we are TALKING ABOUT THE RAPE OF A CHILD...Nothing grey about it. If you are found guilty of that act you IMMEDIATELY forfeit your formerly "inalienable" rights and you get to be put to death...Hopefully in public so the other sick fucks that have the same deranged idea of a 'good time' might have second thoughts about it...

I am as progressive as anyone else around here, and for the vast majority of the time do not believe in the DP either...but for certain crimes...it's the only punishment that REMOTELY comes close to paying for the crime...

[David__77]

252. I do not agree, but this is smart politically.

He's saying "I will stop at nothing to protect you and your children."

[KillCapitalism]

253. I support Obama's decision.

I also think the Supreme Court was wrong in their decision.

Joseph Stalin once said "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem."

[jody]

255. Follow up question "Senator Obama, at what age does rape become 'not-a heinous crime'". n/t

[mdmc]

256. good

I disagree with him
but it will get votes

[iverglas]

257. what a piece of shit he is

It's too much to expect a politician in the US to take a principled, 20th-century, human-rights based stand on the death penalty itself. I know.

But to support the use of the death penalty for non-homicide cases ...

PANDERING

Unprincipled, politics-playing pandering. I suppose the world has a lot more of that to look forward to in the next few months ...

I mean, unless, good Christian that he is, he actually does believe this. He actually has the kind of psychological make-up that enables him to compartmentalize his values and his actions like this. In that case, he's still a piece of shit, just for a slightly different reason.

Appalling. Unspeakable. You all have my condolences on this lesser of the evils being your only choice.

[truebrit71]

263. What about the human rights of the victim....or are they just "a piece of shit" too?

..:eyes:

[iverglas]

258. international opinion about your death penalty laws

Of course, the funny thing is that it is precisely the people baying for the killing of convicted offenders who care the least about international opinion about anything the US does.

And the funny thing is that it's generally the right wing, in both cases ...

In a 2001 Supreme Court of Canada case regarding a US state's efforts to extradite two persons charged with murder in that state:

http://csc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2001/2001scc7/2001scc7.html

From the headnote (summary)

Countervailing factors favour extradition only with assurances <that the death penalty will not be sought>.

First, in Canada, the death penalty has been rejected as an acceptable element of criminal justice. Capital punishment engages the underlying values of the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. It is final and irreversible. Its imposition has been described as arbitrary and its deterrent value has been doubted.

Second, at the international level, the abolition of the death penalty has emerged as a major Canadian initiative and reflects a concern increasingly shared by most of the world’s democracies. Canada’s support of international initiatives opposing extradition without assurances, combined with its international advocacy of the abolition of the death penalty itself, leads to the conclusion that in the Canadian view of fundamental justice, capital punishment is unjust and should be stopped. While the evidence does not establish an international law norm against the death penalty, or against extradition to face the death penalty, it does show significant movement towards acceptance internationally of a principle of fundamental justice Canada has already adopted internally -- namely, the abolition of capital punishment. International experience thus confirms the validity of concerns expressed in the Canadian Parliament about capital punishment. It also shows that a rule requiring that assurances be obtained prior to extradition in death penalty cases not only accords with Canada’s principled advocacy on the international level, but also is consistent with the practice of other countries with which Canada generally invites comparison, apart from the retentionist jurisdictions in the United States.

... Fourth, the accelerating concern about potential wrongful convictions is a factor of increased weight since Kindler and Ng were decided <earlier decisions of the SCC allowing extradition>. The avoidance of conviction and punishment of the innocent has long been in the forefront of “the basic tenets of our legal system”. The recent and continuing disclosures of wrongful convictions for murder in Canada and the United States provide tragic testimony to the fallibility of the legal system, despite its elaborate safeguards for the protection of the innocent. This history weighs powerfully in the balance against extradition without assurances when fugitives are sought to be tried for murder by a retentionist state, however similar in other respects to our own legal system.

Fifth, the “death row phenomenon” is another factor that weighs against extradition without assurances. The finality of the death penalty, combined with the determination of the criminal justice system to try to satisfy itself that the conviction is not wrongful, inevitably produces lengthy delays, and the associated psychological trauma to death row inhabitants, many of whom may ultimately be shown to be innocent. The “death row phenomenon” is not a controlling factor in the s. 7 <constitutional right to life>balance, but even many of those who regard its horrors as self‑inflicted concede that it is a relevant consideration.

We out here invite you all to join us in the light of the era of respect for human rights. In your own time ...



Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

[truebrit71]

262. Where's the part where they say that everyone has the inalienable right NOT to be raped as a child..

...did they miss that part out?

Fuck the rights of the guilty...FUCK THAT NOISE...

Fry the bastards.

Slowly.

[iverglas]

266. since you ask so nicely

It's right there in section 7, as reproduced in my post.

The right to security of the person, and not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

The state may not rape children.

And the state has a duty to take measures to prevent the rape of children -- at least, in the eyes of people who think the state has a duty to do things, and not just a duty to let everybody do what s/he likes.

Now, how is this connected with killing people convicted of raping children?



Fuck the rights of the guilty.

Yes, a cherished opinion in some quarters. Not by anyone I choose to breathe the same air as.

[Name removed]

267. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

280. The Mods agreed wih the "whine," so that makes them what?

[truebrit71]

281. Was I talking to you?

I didn't think so.....

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

294. Well, now you are.

[truebrit71]

285. Apparently quoting your own material back to you is against the rules all of a sudden...

...:whatever:

[LeftishBrit]

272. And is the death penalty going to PREVENT children from being raped?

More likely, it will (a) lead to rapists being more likely to murder their victims to prevent them from telling tales; and (b) lead to children - and their mothers - being unwilling to testify; especially if the rapist is a relative or family friend.

Everyone does have the inalienable right not be raped, murdered, tortured, etc., whether as a child or at any other time in life. But I don't think the DP DOES deter psychopaths; and it is just liable to make our society more and more violent and uncivilized. It's really a matter of giving our governments the right to kill us if they think there's a good enough reason. And after all we've seen of our own and other governments - do we really want to go there? Perhaps the first warning of the true evil of Bush was when he was governor of Texas and approved 152 executions.

[truebrit71]

279. When did we start talking about prevention?

...We were talking about people that had been caught and tried AFTER the fact...

[LeftishBrit]

286. So what does it have to do with people's right not to be raped?

Getting revenge after the fact won't give them that right. In fact, I think it might give them LESS of a right in practice (e.g. mother is more likely to cover for the evil stepfather if she thinks that testifying against him will cause his execution).

And don't you think that it might traumatize a child *more* if they know their testimony led to someone's execution; especially if they were raped by someone they knew?

[truebrit71]

287. Nothing to do with revenge, everything to do with justice..

...and the permanent removal of a piece of human refuse...

As for the trauma, I highly doubt it...

[PittPoliSci]

271. let's hear it for triangulation!

[postking1]

291. Obama Invoking Reagan Again!

Obama has not only created a stir in the past few days with his contradictory comments on the 2nd amendment and now these comments about the Supreme Court's decision in rape cases, he again has complimented former Republican President Ronald Reagan by quoting from Reagan's foreign policy motto. The reference comes approximately four minutes into a video interview with Fox Business News.
http://phillipsnation.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-quotes-ronald-reagan-phillips.html

[LeftishBrit]

273. I strongly disagree with Obama here, but perhaps he had no choice.

Dukakis was perhaps my favourite presidential candidate (including his anti-DP views) but most Americans disagreed (just as most of my fellow-Brits disagreed with me about Michael Foot). Defeating McInsane for the Bush Third Term is the priority here; even if the opponent is not perfect. NONE of the candidates this year met my ideological criteria - not even Kucinich, who had been pro-life for a long time, and was briefly prepared to consider Ron Paul as a running mate. But it's not my ideological criteria that matter here; it's who can defeat the true right-wing.

[LynneSin]

290. It's ironic you brought up Dukakis.

They would 'Willie Horton' Obama if he said he was in agreement with the Supreme Court on this decision. It's better to say that he supports the Death Penalty than seeing a series of 'Willie Horton' style commericials convincing americans that Barack Obama supports the rights of Child Rapists.

[LeftishBrit]

293. Yes, that was my point - I'd been reading about that on another thread.

Depressing.

We haven't had the DP in over 40 years here in the UK; but there are still the 'hanger 'n flogger' types among the Tory base; and our tabloid press does pander to them.

[LanternWaste]

282. Is stating that something is constitutional the same as supporting it?

Is stating that something is constitutional the same as supporting it?

[LynneSin]

289. Obama made the right choice with this even if I don't agree with him. Here's why....

Repukes will do anything to win including using fodder like this Supreme Court decision if Obama said he was in agreement. I can see the add now - A picture of some cute little kid with the comment "Barack Obama is against protecting our children from Rapists by banning the use of the death penalty for Child Rapists".

Sounds really stupid but there are people that would be turned by shit like that.

[knixphan]

292. without a doubt.