Baytown (TX) teen charged with capital murder in son's death

[Blue_Tires]

Source: Houston Chronicle

A 14-year-old girl whose newborn son died from being submerged in a school toilet and having toilet paper stuffed down his throat has been charged with capital murder, authorities said today.

Prosecutors have not yet decided whether the teenage mother should be certified to stand trial as an adult. If tried as an adult, she could receive a life sentence without the possiblity of parole but could not be sentenced to death due to her age. In 2005, U.S. Supreme Court banned executions of juvenile criminals.

If she is convicted as a juvenile she could receive up to 40 years in juvenile detention and state prison.

The teen has been under investigation since the incident occurred April 2 in a restroom at Cedar Bayou Junior School. She is being held at a juvenile detention facility, said Baytown Police Capt. Roger Clifford.

According to an autopsy by the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office, the baby also suffered blunt trauma to his head and neck.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5857794.html

---

Capital murder for a 14-year-old who didn't know where babies come from?

[msongs]

1. evidently this girl didnt have any responsible parents either nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Or maybe she was raped

[superconnected]

26. Most likely she made a mistake and had sex and got pregnant

And then she made an even dumber mistake which wasn't so common - killing the kid.

I don't think she should get life in prison. I'd give her 2-5 in a prison though - going out of her way to kill a baby and all. I wouldn't trust her around any kids either after that. I'm guessing she just did a really dumb thing in what she considered dire circumstance but still, most do not go out of their way to kill the child. There are always other options than murder, even for 14 year olds.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. Me, I consider rape a VERY real possibility here. -nt

[Megahurtz]

69. Me too, and I would not rule out family members. n/t

[snooper2]

54. Do you ever read an article

before you make snap comments?

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. You are the one who apparently didn't read it

It says she lied about whether or not she knew she was pregnant. I also know quite a few girls her age. So I am choosing to not believe her about how she got pregnant.

[Megahurtz]

74. FYI the Police LIE quite often.

You don't even know if they told the truth to the Newspapers.

Also this is a case involving a minor so the News won't get the full story anyway.

[LisaL]

106. Maybe you should read the OP.

The article says she acknowledge having sex with a 15 year old boy.

[Scairp]

94. 14 and facing life without

What is this country coming to? 14. Jesus. I wasn't too bright at 14 myself. I have no idea how I would have handled such a situation, probably very badly, given the kind of parents I had, well, still have. Under those conditions, I doubt I would have lived to see 15.

[varkam]

2. I would think trying her as a juvenile would be an appropriate response, given her age.

It seems that they can still dole out a pretty hash punishment, if that is what they feel is acceptable.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. I largely agree with you, and let me add something:

The SCOTUS decision that crimes commited before 18 can't be subject to the DP made this case easier.

She's going to jail, the only question is for how long.

Of course, I'm waiting for the wailing & gnashing of teeth of the punishment fetishists who are pissed because of just that. Come on, freaks, do your worst.

[JVS]

37. Juvenile court is right.

So is a stiff penalty. If she had killed a puppy people would say it is a sign of some kind of fucked up psycho mindset. I can't see how someone who kills a newborn is any less messed up.

[Megahurtz]

77. So the baby FELL OUT in the toilet

(which she probably was not aware of, this has happened to women many times before)

she wipes herself and drops the TP in the toilet and naturally unbeknownst to her the baby gets toilet paper in it's mouth.

All of a sudden she is accused of stuffing toilet paper in it's mouth to kill it???

Something reeks about this bogus charge, I'm not buying it at all! :mad:

She should not be tried at all.

[pitohui]

117. your first child doesn't just "fall out" like that, it takes many HOURS of painful labor to deliver

this person is a sociopath and doesn't need to be out in the world

if you're going to brutally murder someone and then lie about it to keep your secret, for the love of pete, at least make the lie somewhat within the bounds of physical reality

a 14 year old's baby did not just fall out of her twat into the toilet, 'k? ask your doctor or your mom if you need clarification on this point

[LisaL]

123. Furthermore, I kind of doubt toilet paper would just stuff

the infant's mouth if infant just dropped into the toilet.

[stillcool]

3. too bad we don't teach..

young girls about their bodies and contraception. Maybe she'll be lucky and get the death penalty.

[jwirr]

4. To bad that she couldn't have just walked into a hospital, church or

welfare office and handed the child over with no consequences. My state has taken the red tape out of such decisions.

[CornField]

5. The same here in Iowa

I think that's one of the best laws that has ever been passed.

I also agree with an earlier comment about comprehensive sexual education. We need to give young people the information they need so that we can better prevent these types of situations.

[tammywammy]

8. And she could have done that

"A designated emergency infant care provider shall, without a court order, take possession of a child who appears to be 60 days old or younger if the child is voluntarily delivered to the provider by the child's parent, and the parent did not express an intent to return for the child. A ''designated emergency infant care provider'' means:

* An emergency medical services provider
* A hospital
* A licensed child-placing agency that:
o Agrees to act as a designated emergency infant care provider
o Has on staff a person who is licensed as a registered nurse, or who provides emergency services and who will examine and provide emergency medical services to a child taken into possession"

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/state/index.cfm?event=stateStatutes.processSearch

Texas was the first state to have a Safe Haven law, it's been in place since 1999.

[jwirr]

56. Is it well known by people around the state? I am not sure how many

people here would know it. Since the law was in place maybe she was ashamed and was trying to hide her pregnancy.

[tammywammy]

78. There are signs at the locations

I drive by a church with it prominently displayed on both sides outside for instance.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. Texas has such laws too

In Texas any infant under 60 days old can be left at any hospital or fire station with no questions asked.

However, she was a child herself and no doubt devoid of counseling on such matters. Not to mention the manner and place of the birth ruled out that option for her.

[joeglow3]

42. EVERY state but mine has a safe haven law

Alaska recently passed it, leaving only Nebraska without one.

[KneelBeforeZod]

67. Texas, HER state, also has removed the red tape ...

She COULD'VE dropped the child off at a hospital or fire station. She didn't.

I am afraid I don't have much sympathy here -- prison for life seems a light sentence for stuffing a newborns mouth with toilet paper, bashing his head in, and drowning him in a toilet.

I am aware she's a juvenile ... but there are some mistakes that cannot be fixed, even when made by a kid.

KBZ

[SharonAnn]

86. And how would she get there to do that? Would she even know about the option?

[ChazII]

113. My state

has similar laws.

[Stewie]

135. That's allowed under Texas law

They even have big billboards in Houston telling women they can hand over unwanted children and not be prosecuted.

Didn't help in this case. Just a sick disregard for other humans.

[progdonkey]

6. yeah, killing another child is really the answer...

Of course, it's Texas, where they seriously do think that's the answer.

And where's the guy (or kid) who got her pregnant? He obviously never had to worry about giving birth and what to do about a baby.

[LeftyMom]

7. Abstinance education strikes again.

Poor kids. :(

[MadMaddie]

125. Yes and probably the fact the parents didn't talk to their

daughter about the birds and the bees....

[Schema Thing]

10. This is why I'm not pro-choice

I'm full on pro-abortion.


Nobody really gives a shit about 6 weeks worth of egg/sperm hookup kidney bean lookin' nameless thoughtless fetizoids.

[Poll_Blind]

80. I hear ya.

PB

[gatorboy]

11. Where does it say she didn't know where babies come from?

[sasquatch]

12. Its Texas, the forebearer of Abstinence only education

[gatorboy]

13. Texans don't know where babies come from?

Seriously. Someone needs to get on that before they start making more Texans.

[provis99]

25. Doesn't surprise me. I don't have a clue where Texans come from

Are they the advance invasion wave of gun-toting Martians?

on edit: Apologies to Austin citizens. You guys are the real, human Texans.

[snooper2]

55. you know not everyone who is a Dem in TX lives in Austin...

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

[brentspeak]

121. Uh, ok

Yeah, only those people from Austin...

:eyes:

:thumbsdown:

[Blue_Tires]

16. it stands to reason that if she was sexually active

and did know where babies came from (the real details, not just the basics), chances are she would have taken precaution to prevent pregnancy, or known about her options (i.e., the safe haven law, etc) once she became pregnant.

[gatorboy]

17. You're kidding, right?

Thousands of people are probably throwing precaution to the wind this very moment and know where babies come from. Are you saying she didn't take precautions because you think she literally didn't know where babies come from? Who do you think she is? Nell?

[Blue_Tires]

18. for a 14 year old, a little bit of knowlege about sex is a dangerous thing

versus knowing the things we know now as adults...i know everyone has different growing up experiences, but when i was 14, i was woefully ill-informed about sex...All I knew was a woman's anatomy (from Penthouse) and tidbits from my classmates -- EVERY one of which was wrong...I was given a very basic, "tab A into slot B" sex-ed class at 15, and thought I knew all there was to know then...didn't really learn about STDs until I was in college at 19, other nuances until I was well in my 20s, and I'm still learning about sex psychology today...

I'm not saying she literally didn't know where babies came from, but I'm guessing she and her partner weren't experienced enough to know the ways of preventing pregnancy -- I've had friends over the years that still think pulling out is "safe enough"

[gatorboy]

19. Pulling out doesn't necessarily mean you don't know about other methods,

it just means you don't want to wear the condom (Am I right, guys? Huh? Huh?). ;) But I'm finding it hard to believe this girl had no idea she delivered a baby. Now I can believe that no one noticed. Hell, I knew a girl that had hid three pregnancies and no one knew she was pregnant with either of them until just before delivery. And I can still buy that it's possible that she didn't even know herself that she was pregnant. But to tell me she didn't realize she was delivering a 7 pound child is too stupid to even debate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Do you remember all the dumb rumors you heard about sex when you were 14?

That you can't get pregnant your first time? That a Coca Cola douche is a great contraceptive?

Also, have you been around 14-year-olds very much? They can be awfully flighty and impulsive and not always logical, and with hormones in full fluctuation, anything can happen. It's an all too common and sad story, but the fact is, 14-year-olds do not think like adults.

[gatorboy]

21. They're saying she didn't even realize she had delivered an 18 inch, 5 pound child.

Do you really buy that? (Please say no, please, please, please.) The truly sad aspect of this story is a girl who was raised in a value system that thought killing a child was the best alternative.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. By your name, I'd judge that you've never been a 14-year-old girl

or spent much time with them.

There's such a thing as panic that makes you crazy. If she came from a strict fundy family, she might have gone into severe denial and thought that the most important thing was hiding the birth from her parents.

You seem to be assuming that this girl was some sort of calculating sociopath. A calculating sociopath would have realized that she was pregnant and obtained an abortion by any means necessary. There's a slight possibility that this girl was of that type, but I've been reading about cases like this all my life: a naive young girl gets pregnant, doesn't realize that she's pregnant, and goes into sheer, blind panic after giving birth, panic that overrides her entire sense of morality and common sense.

[gatorboy]

31. Brilliant deduction!

Did the male avatar give me away? :rofl: Yes I've never been a 14 year old girl, but to say I don't have much experience simply because of my name? You read alot in tea leaves as well?


So can you see yourself beating and drowning a child at 14?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. No, but I can see myself panicking about other things

and being very, very scared.

[JVS]

36. If someone's reaction to being scared is to kill infants, then they don't belong outside of an...

institution of some variety.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. The lack of empathy here is astounding

Of course it's a terrible thing to kill a newborn infant. But you don't know what was going on in this girl's mind. As I said before, a real sociopath would have coolly assessed the situation and begged, borrowed, or stolen to have an abortion.

Without excusing what the girl did, I can easily imagine a scared, naive girl with an immature 14-year-old brain panicking and doing whatever it took to "make the baby stop crying."

It's tragic, it never should have happened, killing babies is never right, but I seriously doubt that the girl is some kind of a sociopathic monster.

[joeglow3]

44. I don't get this

She delivered a full term baby AND the placenta, but didn't notice a thing. I bet my wife wishes she could deliver as fast and pain-free as this teen could.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Some apparently can

Just a few weeks ago, I was among a group of women at the gym who were talking about their pregnancies. One of them took only two hours with her first baby and was down to less than an hour by the fourth. When I was in my twenties, I knew someone who took two hours with the first, one hour with the second.

[gatorboy]

51. This isn't about how quick the delivery was.

This is about her saying she had no idea she WAS giving birth. You think THAT's possible?

[joeglow3]

53. Oh, I know that.

I just cannot fathom how someone can deliver a baby and not know it. There is a reason they invented epiderals.

I think truth is that she was a scared child who freaked out. I just cannot believe she delivered a baby (pain free) and had the placenta literally just "fall out" and not know it.

[JVS]

49. I don't see how beating the child, then stuffing it's throat with paper towel, then drowning it...

fails the sociopath test. If she'd done this to a dog people would be crying for her blood. She needs to be kept out of society until she's corrected.

[LisaL]

107. What about empathy for the dead infant?

Got any?

[iverglas]

128. what about a point?

Got one?

[iverglas]

127. after all this time, you still find it astounding?

Me, I usually just sit back and watch the feeding frenzy. Gave up on expecting any of those "liberal", "progressive" thoughts quite some time ago.

A 17-yr-old boy is dead because he did something dangerous at an amusement park? Darwin award.

A 14-yr-old girl who may have been in severe denial and fear for weeks or months, or may not have had a clue, simply cannot come to terms that a baby has just come out of her body, and does the only thing that looks like it will save her life as she knows it? Rotten murdering bitch.

Baby drop chutes are not doing to do a damned thing in situations like this, btw. She obviously was not equipped to deal with what was happening in/to her life. And I doubt that anyone had ever told her about baby drop chutes anyway, even if they existed where she was.

Girls are told not to have sex, not to have unprotected sex, not to get pregnant (and not to have an abortion if they do) -- but they are never told, straight out, that there are damned good odds that sometime in their life they are going to have an unwanted pregnancy, and it may be sooner rather than later, and there are things you need to do if it happens, and we will help you decide what to do and do it.

Unwanted pregnancy is a damned fact of life for girls and women. But nobody ever tells us that. We just get left on our own to feel like some kind of freak of nature when it happens -- failures, stupid, sinful, whatever particular negative image fits our age and class and self-image. The denial can be huge, by someone unable to face all the things that an unwanted pregnancy supposedly says about her, and the consequences of the thing that could not be accepted actually happening -- childbirth -- could be utterly overwhelming.

[LanternWaste]

59. Many times the only thing that separates us from those we despise

"So can you see yourself beating and drowning a child at 14?"

No... but I did go drag racing in unsafe cars while my girlfriend rose shot gun when I was fifteen. Sounds just as brainless and stupid to me. Maybe not as violent-- but that's ONLY because I had the good fortune never to have gotten into a wreck...


Many times the only thing that separates us from those we despise, deride, denigrate, and make fun of is nothing more than a matter of degrees... especially when it comes to stupid, youthful choices.

[gatorboy]

63. You're comparing forcibly shoving a child down the toilet with drag racing?

Really?

The only way that would be an appropriate comparison is if you were purposely trying to kill your girlfriend. You weren't TRYING to kill her, were you?

[LanternWaste]

66. I'm comparing one stupid decision to another stupid decision

I'm comparing one stupid decision to another stupid decision-- too dogmatic to see that or just being obtuse?

Point being, the stupid decision I made to drag race would have easily wound up with both her and I did-- because I made a stupid decision when I was young.

See-- stupid decision were the point-- not the agenda I had in making that decision.

Sheesh.

Edited: spelling error

[gatorboy]

68. I'll ask you again, were you purposely trying to kill your girlfriend?

Because this girl wasn't RISKING her son's life. She willingly killed him. End of story. To say she made a stupid decision is an understatment. But comparing her fatal actions with yours is, I'm sorry, too stupid for words.

[LisaL]

110. I don't get your point.

I hope you are not suggesting that women who get abortions are "calculated sociopaths." What on Earth would have made the girl a sociopath if she got an abortion?
Please.

[iverglas]

129. do you read much?

I know I'm late to the party and may not catch your attention, but this really is atrocious.

Lydia Leftcoast described WHAT A SOCIOPATH WOULD HAVE DONE. A sociopath would have arranged an abortion -- because she would have made sure to do what was in her own interests.

She did NOT say that someone who got an abortion would be a sociopath.

So why the fuck would you say to her:

What on Earth would have made the girl a sociopath if she got an abortion?

Surely someone who has completed high school would know that your question has nothing to do with what the person it is addressed to said.

[pitohui]

118. gatorboy, i was once a 14 year old girl, and your skepticism is RIGHT ON

your first child doesn't just fall out, there are some on DU who are more in need of sex ed than the texans they're laughing at if they sincerely think your first baby just "falls out"

for the record, absent modern anesthetics, delivering a child requires a great many hours of painful labor -- only in the movies is this something that happens in a matter of moments, in real life, it's many many hours

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. You mean like the dumb rumor that crying babies should be drowned?

No, I don't remember that one.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. You don't get what I'm saying, do you?

I was referring to her not knowing that she was pregnant. It happens more often than you might think, and so does pregnancy among teens who were raised on "abstinence only." They think it's "not so bad" if they didn't plan to have sex but just got carried away.

Understanding why someone did something is not the same as excusing it.

I can see why the girl might have been literally frightened out of her wits, especially if she came from a strict home. There was a girl in my high school whose father beat her almost to death when he found out that she had been having sex with her boyfriend.

Am I excusing what she did? No. But I'm saying that she's most likely not the monster that the MEN on this board are painting her as.

[gatorboy]

43. Where does it say this girl was raised "abstinence only"?

I see alot of assumptive people here throwing that term around with nothing to back it up.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. See, I don't know, which is why I'm reserving judgment

n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. That is something of an understatement.

I think that she may not "have known where babies came from" a half-hour before she flushed the toilet, but she sure as hell knew when she stuffed toilet paper in his mouth.

Is capital murder appropriate? Should she be tried as an adult? I'm not sure. But I do know that all the wildly speculative excuses offered on her behalf bug the hell out of me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Panic makes people mean and stupid

especially if they're immature or (and I don't know, but it's possible) not very bright.

It bugs me to no end that people on this thread--mostly men, I see--are acting like this girl is Monster of the Year.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Being stupid does not excuse crime.

If she knew right from wrong, she is culpable of killing her child.

And yes, I'm a man. I'm nevertheless entitled to an opinion. "Monster of the year"? Yeah, pretty much.

[KneelBeforeZod]

85. Mostly men?

>> It bugs me to no end that people on this thread--mostly men, I see--are acting like this girl is Monster of the Year.

This is a peculiar statement -- an oddly placed (attempted) cheap shot at men.

Of what relevance is the gender of the folks who hold a different opinion than you? Is it not equally notable that most of the people on this thread willing to callously excuse the brutal murder of an infant are women? Would it not be notable that the only people apparently willing to call for justice for the infant are men?

Is this a gender issue? Would you be equally lenient if the father of this infant, rather than the mother, had opted to drown him in a toilet, head bashed in, stuffed with toilet paper? I'm quite sure, if the scenario were altered, that I'd be equally hard on him as I am on her.

KBZ

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. I was just stating a fact

I think many of the women are thinking, "That could have been me scared out of my mind at 14 if my life had gone differently" or "I had a friend that happened to" or "I was pregnant at 14, and fortunately I could trust my parents" or "I've known how 14-year-old girls can be."

[Eyes_wide_ open]

95. Oh hell no, you did not go there did you?

For the record I am a woman.

And at 14, yes, I was pretty stupid and there are any number of idiot decisions I could have made. Had I been sexually active then I might have gotten pregnant and would have been terrified granted. Might even have been dumb enough to try and hide it, but come on really.

There is no amount of ignorant, or stupid, or immature that even begins to excuse or explain not knowing you just gave birth to a child that size. No way I believe that. She knew and that's why she was scared. But no amount of afraid makes it okay or excusable to just snuff the baby.

I would make the case that not only is she a monster, but also the people making excuses for her and calling the MEN that actually feel for the actual victim (um ... you know, the baby she tried to drown, suffocate and FLUSH)in this case un empathetic.

Yes she's a juvenile and should be tried as such, I really don't care what the law says CAN be done it is not right to try children as adults. But we can't let them commit murder either.

And I agree with the posters that have said you really ought to read an article before you start spouting this kind of drivel. Maybe this and maybe that really don't cut it, SHE said she knew she her condition and that she got that way having unprotected sex with a 15yo boy and even at 14 I'll bet she knows more about what happened than you do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. There's a lot of blame to go around

First of all, the girl's parents. How can they not have noticed that their daughter was pregnant? At that age, my mother was still buying my Kotex for me and would have noticed if I hadn't needed any.

Second, what kind of idiot school nurse can't tell the difference between menstrual cramps and labor?

[KneelBeforeZod]

101. Neither ...

Neither the parents, nor the Nurse, held an infant's head under toilet water until he lost consciousness. Why blame everyone but the murderer? Why blame everyone but the single individual most responsible for the death of the infant? There may be plenty of blame to go around, but the largest portion of that blame (by a LONG shot) rests squarely on the shoulders of a teenager so callous that she could drown her own son in a toilet.

Her parents and the nurse could be more observant ... there's no hero in this situation. But, blame cannot be equally distributed in this situation. They were negligent (and were very likely unintentionally negligent) -- she intentionally and willfully drowned an infant in toilet water. Slight difference in intent.

I will not excuse the actions of the nurse and parents, but nor will I excuse the actions of the teen. The level of punishment shouldn't be near equal, though. The nurse should be reprimanded or fired, and the girl should spend the rest of her natural life in prison. She has demonstrated a level of depravity which cannot be condoned, and which should not be allowed to roam free.

KBZ

[woo me with science]

133. Thank you.

I read that post and couldn't even find my tongue to reply.

[KneelBeforeZod]

99. So ...

You're comfortable with the assertion that "many women" identify with the girl that stuffed her newborn son's throat with toilet paper, bashed his head in, and drowned him in the toilet? Certainly some can identify with fear, insecurity, etc. But identifying with a girl who held an infant's head in toilet-water until he stopped breathing ... I doubt it.

Not sure that reflects particularly well on the women to whom you're referring. I prefer to think that most women aren't quite so callous to the life of an innocent infant. I prefer to think that most women would be appalled at this partiuclar teens actions. I prefer to think that most women would have sympathy for the infant, not the murderer.

But, perhaps I am naive. I think maybe you underestimate women. I certainly hope you underestimate women ...

Z

[Lydia Leftcoast]

115. We're not talking about "women" here

We're talking about a 14-year-old, most likely neglected (if nobody noticed she was pregnant), probably not very bright. I've worked with 14-year-olds. They can be creatures of pure emotion and pure self-centeredness at times, especially under stress. What was she thinking? Probably, "How can I make that baby stop crying so that nobody finds out?" I doubt she thought much beyond that.

You wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. (But then, I had parents who kept an eye on me, and if I had somehow had the opportunity to get pregnant in spite of their supervision, we would have worked something out.) But some kids come from such screwed-up homes that it's a wonder they get through the day and no wonder that they have a faulty moral compass.

In any case, what she does at 14 is not necessarily something she would do at 18 or 21. As a nation, we've become really bloodthirsty about juvenile offenders, wanting to throw the book at them. We're far more punitive than most other Western countries, especially with regard to juveniles, and yet (or maybe because of that) we have a higher crime rate than most Western countries.

I never said that infanticide is justified. I never said that it was okay for her to kill her baby. But some of the commentators are acting as if this girl is the most evil creature they ever heard of. A really evil girl would have studied up ahead of time how to kill her baby in a subtle way and then claim to have "found" the dead baby. The use of multiple methods and then making up a clumsy lie tells me that this was a spur of the moment bit of hysterical panic.

[pitohui]

119. you've got to be kidding me, lydia

i am a woman and i was a teen girl and NO there was no one i knew who kept their pregnancy a secret, gave birth without medical assistance in a toilet, and deliberately drowned their child and tried to flush him down the toilet

that is the action of a psycho

there were girls who married too young, girls who had to get an abortion in secret, even a friend who somehow managed to get out from her parent's eyes and arrange for an adoption in secret -- but giving birth without medical assistance with the intent of killing the baby and flushing the body down the toilet NO WAY

i do not think many women are thinking "that could have been me" because too many women have been in situations where they were faced with an unwanted baby and somehow they found a way to deal that didn't involve flushing a dead body down a toilet

trying to pretend that any teen could have done this is ridiculous

[gatorboy]

126. And from recent reports the mother herself remembered the child crying .

CRYING! Crying while she did what she did.

Some of the excuses made for her here are astonishing and unsettling.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

131. I'm not saying that ANY teen would have done this

I'm just saying that her actions are more those of a panicked teen, one who was failed by at least two adults (her parent(s) and the school nurse) than of a calculating psychopath.

I'd like to hear from Europeans on this board. What would happen to such a girl in their countries?

[woo me with science]

132. Oh, my god.

Unbelievable.

[cannabis_flower]

136. That's what the police said...

She stuffed toilet paper in the baby's mouth. But could she have just dropped the toilet paper in the toilet and the baby's breathing and crying sucked the toilet paper up into its throat. And about the blunt force trauma, the baby comes out head first, porcelain is very hard. I know a guy who got a nasty gash and a concussion by passing out and hitting a toilet bowl.

And labor is very individual. I personally went to high school with a girl who said she didn't know she was pregnant and no one else knew either - even her foot doctor who she was going to for a broken ankle. She was very tall and didn't have a very defined waist. She gave birth with the help of her brother after a very short labor. She thought she was having menstrual cramps and went to the bathroom and called her brother and he came and helped her. If you are athletic or do a lot of walking or other exercise it is very likely that your labor will be shorter and easier.

[snooper2]

57. Another one, DO YOU PEOPLE READ ARTICLES!

Jeez, it states she fucked a 15 year old boy and knew she was preggers...

READ....

[woo me with science]

134. No, no no!

ALL girls are INNOCENT and VICTIMIZED, and nothing they could POSSIBLY do could ever be their FAULT!

Don't you know that by now???????

[qwlauren35]

130. I'm wavering...

but in the end... I'm coming up a lot more negative than positive.

Yes, people panic over pregnancies. I remember the basketball player who had his girlfriend shot in the stomach...

Still murder.

Panic murder is not premeditated murder. But it's still murder.

At the same time, it's quite possible that in the same way they condemn "fornicating women" in Islamic countries, she would have been figuratively "stoned". So, I want her to be put on trial. And then I think we'll see who the monsters really are.

Yes, a trial will "ruin her life". But that was already in the works the day she had unprotected sex.

[happyslug]

71. You hit the common law rule on insanity

The common Law rule on Insanity basically was is the person's mental ability at least up to the level of a typical 14 year old? Age of Consent for Sex, under the Common law, was only age 12. Both test have been changed by Statute in ALL states, but the Common Law Rules shows you the legal concepts involved. Is this 14 year old acting like a typical 14 year old? I have my questions, and if that is true then she fails the intent test to be found guilty of Murder (or any other crime).

My point is the State has a difficult case on its hands even in Juvenal Court. Can they prove she had the mental capability of a normal 14 year old?

[sasquatch]

14. Anyone reading the comments at the link, nothing but mouth breathing fanatics

[PittPoliSci]

23. they were pretty disgusting.

i guess they were never young and scared before.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. Well, I've seen worse. Random sampling yields nobody crying for death penalty.

You'd expect some "CURSE YOU SUPREME COURT!11!!!1cos(0)11!!" posts in cases like this.

[depakid]

62. There are some rational ones:

Like this:

I in no way am making excuses for this baby killer, but I still shake my head at the school nurse who saw her for 2 hours before this and claims she didn't know she was pregnant, but put a heating pad on her for "menstrual cramps".

How about taking a medical history: Had a period lately? When was your last one? Could you be pregnant? Have you had any of these symptoms? H*LL, in Massachusetts they do free pregnancy tests and are looking to give out birth control to students in public school. Seems we in Texas can't get any nurses to even suspect pregnancy. Maybe that's because it just never happens, right? Sheesh. Pathetic.

[last_texas_dem]

87. Yeah

What's scary is those were the "most recommended" comments!?! Judging by the typical letters to the editor, the average reader of the Houston Chronicle isn't the most forward-thinking person...

[Red_Viking]

15. Holy crap, that's where my dad went to high school

Back in the 1950s. Tragic, and unnecessary.

Peace--

RV

[PittPoliSci]

22. why did a 14 year old baby have a baby?

she could have been 13 when her baby conceived.

where was the father? how old was he? what the hell is going on?

gotta love that abstinence only sex education...

[JVS]

29. yeah, but none of that excuses beating and drowning a newborn.

[PittPoliSci]

60. of course not.

[tammywammy]

79. You should read the article

"Although the girl's attorney has said that she insisted she was unaware of her pregnancy, Assistant District Attorney Scott Pope said the girl acknowledged to a Baytown officer that she had had unprotected sex with a 15-year-old boy and knew she was pregnant."

[LisaL]

108. Read the OP.

The alleged father is 15.

[UndertheOcean]

27. What a MONSTER

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. I'm not excusing what she did, but can't anyone here see why a

non-"Monster" 14-year-old might panic and do this?

[INDIA]

72. in your opinion, how old would she have to be before "monster" is appropriate?

15? 17? 19?

[KneelBeforeZod]

82. No ...

I cannot see a non-monster forcing toilet paper into the mouth of an infant, bashing him in the head, and holding his head under toilet water and watching him drown.

Non-monsters (even from age 3) "coo" at babies, they play with babies, they cuddle with babies -- they don't DROWN them in toilets. I cannot imagine a non-monster thinking that holding an infants head under water was a reasonable thing to do.

Can you? Picture your hand on the back of that infant's head, pressing its face into toilet-water until he stops breathing. Fourteen-years-old or not -- does that seem like something that a non-monster could do?

KBZ

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. I can see a panicky 14-year-old doing that

:shrug:

Panic makes people do crazy things.

[KneelBeforeZod]

100. Panic ...

That it seems to you a reasonable response for a panicked teen to stuff an infant's throat with toilet paper, bash in his skull, and force his head into a toilet is somewhat disturbing. That particular course of action is simply never excusable nor reasonable -- it is, in all cases, entirely depraved.

Nonetheless, I am afriad "panic" is simply not a defense to murder -- nor should it be. "Ah ... I panicked when I saw the two gay men kissing, and I beat them within an inch of their life." "I panicked when my girlfriend told me she was pregnant, so I killed her where she stood." "I panicked when the cop came up on me dealing drugs, and I shot him." Even from a 14-year-old, that wouldn't fly. Neither should it be OK to say, "I panicked and drowned my newborn in a toilet."

In society, people (even teenagers) are expected to act with a certain reasonable level of social morality, even when panic sets in. Asking a panicked teen not to drown her infant in a toilet doesn't seem like too high a bar.

KBZ

[pitohui]

120. no i can't see anyway she isn't a monster, at 14 you know right and wrong

we wouldn't be able to make it thru the day without gunfire if people lived so long without knowing you don't stick someone's head in the toilet and drown them dead

were you never 14? have you really forgotten that at 14 you were a real person with a real heart and a brain?

[Bluebear]

65. -

never mind

[JVS]

28. This charge is appropriate.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jobycom]

52. Wonderful.

At fourteen--hell, at thirteen when she got pregnant--her psyche isn't even formed enough to understand the difference between self and other completely. All she knew was the fear she felt. That's why children aren't executed, and why they are tried as juveniles instead of adults. At fourteen she doesn't have the full capacity to see an infant as a human life. It's a fear, it's a punishment, it's a terror of getting caught.

Obviously even a fourteen year old knows that murder is wrong, but the mental capacity isn't there to make adult decisions based on adult understandings. That's why there are drinking ages limits, and driving age limits, and voting age limits. That's why mental capacity in adults can be a mitigating factor under the law. We can't have it both ways--either she's a juvenile or an adult.

She should be tried as a juvenile, punished as a juvenile, because she is a juvenile.

[depakid]

61. In Texas, they can still give her 40 years if tried as a juvenile

[last_texas_dem]

91. I agree with your post

And I believe the possibility of a forty year imprisonment, even if tried as a juvenile, is excessive.

[hedgehog]

64. The nurse, thinking the girl was suffering from menstrual cramps,

had her lie down with a heating pad for 2 1/2 hours before sending her back to class


From the link in the OP

What, the cramps went away after 2 1/2 hours or you're only allowed out of class for 2 1/2 hours? The girl left the nurse's office to give birth by herself in the rest room! To my mind, that visit to the nurse's office was a last ditch effort to get help from some adult, any adult. If all the adults were that clueless, why are we expecting better of the girl. Some 14 year olds can do some pretty dumb shit!


PS- what about the 15 year old that got her pregnant?

[LisaL]

109. If he truly is 15, then nothing. He is also underage, so it's not like

he could be charged with statutory rape or anything else.

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. Our society is insane

Life without parole? Forty years?

What the fuck is wrong with people.

[KneelBeforeZod]

75. She murdered an infant ...

She stuffed his mouth with toilet paper, bashed his head in, and drowned him in a toilet ... why shouldn't she be punished severely? Should 14-year-olds be able to murder with impunity? What if a 14-year-old teen skin-head had murdered an African American in such a manner, should they be let off as well?

Yes, she was a teenager, but, at 14, she should've known better than this. I see no reason that 40-years-to-life isn't a reasonable sentence for the brutal murder of a defenseless infant.

KBZ

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. She's a child

And so would be the 14 year old skinhead.

Our sentencing is absolutely ludicrous.

The voting age in a state should equal precisely the youngest age that state is willing to sentence a child as an adult. If a state can sentence an 11 year-pld to life in prison, then the voting age in that state should be 11. Otherwise, the state's laws are both incoherent and unethical, incoherent since they assume adult function for criminal offenders of a particular age, but not the general population of that age, and unethical in that they disappropriate the entire life of particular citizens before those citizens have any legal opportunity to weigh in on that policy.

[KneelBeforeZod]

81. She is not a child, she is an adolescent ..

A child is not old enough to understand the nature of right and wrong, or understand the consequences of his/her actions. A 5-year-old is a child.

Let's not pretend she's a toddler, pre-schooler, kindergartener or even gradeschooler. A 14-year-old is a mere 2-years from driving, 3-years from college, and 4-years from legal parental emancipation.

A 14-year-old is old enough to discern than drowning an infant in a toilet is wrong, and will result in the permanent death of the infant. A 14-year-old is old enough to understand that her actions were repugnant, and old enough to understand that those actions will result in permanent consequences to both herself and the infant.

She is also old enough to completely disregard right or wrong, and old enough to demonstrate utter depravity. She is additionally old enough to accept the legal consequences of that depravity.

40-years seems a light sentence for the intentional and depraved murder of an innocent newborn.

Again, I ask, should a 14-year-old have the power to murder with impunity? That seems a fairly dangerous precedent. Should a teenager be allowed to kill without fear of punishment simply because they haven't had the opportunity to vote on the punishment for murder. Should Dylan Klebold (17 at the time of the Columbine massacre), had he not killed himself, be now absolved for the Columbine murder simply because he was under voting age? If he were alive, should he be allowed to walk free?

There are definite consequences to giving teenagers the power to murder without punishment. Such a policy will not lead to a fall in the numbers of scared teenage girls that murder newborns, or scared teenage boys that shoot classmates. Hey, they'll be out in 3-5 years -- why the hell not? A small price to risk ...

KBZ

[alcibiades_mystery]

83. Like I said: Tried as an adult should = right to vote

Until that's the way it works, your entire philosophy is incoherent and unethical. Period.

[KneelBeforeZod]

84. Unethical? Is being 14 a "get out of jail free" card?

She brutally drowns an infant, and you barely bat an eye ... you've got more sympathy for the drowner than the infant. And I'VE got an ethical problem? I'm afraid I'm not the callous one in this instance.

>> Until that's the way it works, your entire philosophy is incoherent and unethical. Period.

She's adult enough to commit an adult crime -- she's adult enough to accept an adult punishment. If she didn't feel like spending the rest of her natural life behind bars, she really should have thought of that before pressing an infants face into the bottom of a toilet bowl until he lost consciousness.

Speaking of incoherent, you've still not answered my question regarding the atrocious precedent such a policy would set. I'm not sure you fully comprehend precisely where this train of thought leads ...

Should 14-year-olds be allowed to murder with impunity? Should Dylan Klebold be walking free today (were he alive)? Should we adopt a policy that will no doubt encourage more infant drownings and school shootings? Should we let teenage skinheads walk for murdering African Americans? Should we let teen rapists walk, for they know not what they do? Teenage child molesters? Teenage gay-bashers? Is being 14 a "get out of jail free" card ... do whatever you want, and rejoin honest society at age 18 or 21?

I don't think that's a precedent we want to set. Even if you don't understand why THIS girl should be punished ... perhaps you understand why we don't want to encourage such behavior among all 14-year-olds.

KBZ

[alcibiades_mystery]

93. Should 14 year olds have the right to vote in the state of Texas?

Yes or no.

[KneelBeforeZod]

98. No. Flawed premise, though ...

No, a 14-year-old should not have a right to vote. But I object to the premise that legal and moral responsibility for your actions stems from the right to vote. She should be held morally and legally culpable for her crime, regardless of whether she can vote. There is simply no existing theory of morality or jurisprudence which states that legal culpability for murder stems, or should stem, from the right to vote. You're simply making this up off the top of your head.

So, how about answering my question now? Should 14-year-olds have a get out of jail free card? Should they feel free to commit all the murder and mayhem that they desire ... murder, rape, child molestation, whatever? Should the teen date rapist go free? Should the teen school shooter go free? Should the teen baby drowner go free? Should the teen skinhead murderer go free? Should the teen gay basher go free?

Is that a precedent that you're truly comfortable with? What about the consequences of that precedent? Allowing 14-year-olds to commit the most serious crimes with complete impunity certainly won't do anything to slow teenage crime ... are you comfortable with the rise in teen murder and rape that will inherently stem from this ridiculous proposal?

Z

[alcibiades_mystery]

102. So, you just attribute adult capacities willy-nilly for the purpose of punishment

But not for the purpose of franchise. That's great. Whether there is existing moral or legal theory on this is beside the point: it is a fundamental incoherence within existing theories.

As for your question, I am deeply averse to answering completely preposterous strawman arguments like the one you've imagined. Since I never argued for a "get out of jail free" card or for "complete impunity," your questioning, and the mass of worthless text that contains it, is a waste of your time and mine.

[KneelBeforeZod]

103. Ridiculous ...

>> But not for the purpose of franchise. That's great. Whether there is existing moral or legal theory on this is beside the point: it is a fundamental incoherence within existing theories.

No punishment without representation? Those not given the franchise are simply free to live in anarchy -- woo hoo for them. I drowned my son in a toilet, but I haven't had the opportunity to vote on whether there should be a punishment for drowning an infant in toilet-water -- so neener, neener, neener, can't touch me.

Interesting theory. Ridiculous, but interesting.

I am afraid that there is not an "incoherence" in these theories. The right to vote is simply unconnected with the power to punish criminal transgressions. Jurisdiction is established without regard to the franchise. We don't let non-citizen immigrants vote, and we certainly have the power to punish them for criminal activity. We don't let some felons vote, and we can punish them for repeat crimes.

Criminal jurisdiction over the crimes of minors is clearly established through democratically enacted laws throughout the country. No, they cannot vote. But those that commit certain crimes of a particularly heinous nature can be treated as adults according to laws written on behalf of the people who CAN vote. Those who CAN vote have decided not to let 14-year-olds murder their infants without severe criminal penalties ... as they should.

>> As for your question, I am deeply averse to answering ...

I certainly can see why. The consequences of this ridiculous idea (connecting the power to punish with the right to vote) would be a complete catastrophe.

So what do you think would be an appropriate punishment for a teenager who murders an infant in cold blood? Personally, life imprisonment sounds reasonable to me.

KBZ

[alcibiades_mystery]

104. They are both related to adult conceptualization

In the same way we don't punish the mentally ill the same as those who are adjudicated sane, we do not treat children the same as adults, because - first following basic intuition, and then following established science in psychology - we don't see the same conceptual schema working. If you attribute adult conceptualization to any fourteen year-old, then any justification for limiting the franchise is deeply incoherent. Why 18? Why not 14? In your world, a fourteen year old has the same conceptual and cognitive skills as a 28 year old, so how do you justify dienfranchisement? Answer: you can't. It's completely arbitrary, at that point, which is to say, INCOHERENT and UNETHICAL.

Of course, every one knows this: it's the reason we have a juvenile justice system in the first place. The encroachment on juvenile justice with these ridiculous "tried as an adult" statutes is the incoherent reaction. That would be you.

Of course, for you, committing an act equals the adult conceptualization that you arbitrarily attribute to that act, so you're "theory" is as unscientific and ridiculous as can be, but you keep right on with your laughable nonsense at your leisure; I certainly won't disturb you. According to your very argument, a three year old who "accidentally" drowns his infant brother should be charged with negligent homicide and given a penalty equal to that of a 20 year old who does the same (and I'd be happy to show you your words that say just that). Your position is laughable on its face, and contrary to even common sense.

[KneelBeforeZod]

114. Now who's using straw men?

>> According to your very argument, a three year old who "accidentally" drowns his infant brother should be charged with negligent homicide and given a penalty equal to that of a 20 year old who does the same (and I'd be happy to show you your words that say just that). Your position is laughable on its face, and contrary to even common sense.

Straw man much? My contention is that a 14-year-old girl is old enough to control her actions, and knew or should've known the consequences of drowning a newborn in a toilet. A 3-year-old is clearly not.

>> In the same way we don't punish the mentally ill the same as those who are adjudicated sane, we do not treat children the same as adults, because - first following basic intuition, and then following established science in psychology - we don't see the same conceptual schema working.

The thing is -- she wasn't "mentally ill", nor was she 3-years-old. My argument has nothing to do with AGE, and EVERYTHING to do with INTENT. If she is mentally capable of forming the intent to murder, then she is old enough to be held accountable for carrying out that murder. If she is old enough to understand what murder is, understand that death is permanent, and understand the consequences of her actions ... she's old enough to do the time. All accounts are, this was an intentional murder of an infant -- and 14-years-old is not too young to expect a modicum of decency.

A 3-year-old is not capable of forming intent. Most mentally ill people are not capable of forming intent. These standards are NOT arbitrary. Her mental capability of forming the intent to murder is a question for a jury.

>> If you attribute adult conceptualization to any fourteen year-old, then any justification for limiting the franchise is deeply incoherent. Why 18? Why not 14? In your world, a fourteen year old has the same conceptual and cognitive skills as a 28 year old, so how do you justify dienfranchisement? Answer: you can't. It's completely arbitrary, at that point, which is to say, INCOHERENT and UNETHICAL.

My suggestion is not the application of MY standards, but that she be judged by a jury as all murder suspects are. She intentionally murdered an infant -- the existence of that intent is enough to convince me that she should be imprisoned indefinitely.

KBZ

[Megahurtz]

73. Stupid Fucking Good O'l Boy Piece Of Shit Judge!

:mad: That misogynistic Piece of Shit should not even be on the bench!

[rug]

88. There's plenty of blame to go around.

"On the day the baby died, the girl went to the nurse's office shortly after arriving at school.

"The nurse, thinking the girl was suffering from menstrual cramps, had her lie down with a heating pad for 2 1/2 hours before sending her back to class, Yoakum said."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. Yes, if the SCHOOL NURSE couldn't tell the girl was in labor...

:wtf:

[uppityperson]

97. I wonder what size the teen was.

sometimes obese women don't know they were pregnant, or in labor. And I'm talking adults who it seems should know more than a 14 yr old. Back ache, cramps, some have thought they had a kidney stone.

[alphafemale]

105. Yeah. The poor innocent thing. Let her out in 6 mos. and give her a job babysitting your infant.

How about that?

[LisaL]

111. Or she could start having more of her own if let out in a couple of years.

[Nevernose]

112. That kid has the worst alibi EVER

Technically it's not an alibi, just her excuse but it still sends illogic to new heights.

The teen's attorney, Gerald Yoakum, said his client had sex only once and never knew she was pregnant.

She told investigators that she was seated on the toilet and using toilet paper to stop herself from bleeding and never saw her baby splash into the bowl, Yoakum said. (Note: Elsewhere, it says the baby weighed 5 1/2 pounds.)

...

At the most, the teen thought she was having a miscarriage and had not wanted her parents to know about it, Yoakum said.

One can either believe they're not pregnant or one can believe one is having a miscarriage. Both conditions cannot occur simultaneously. "At the most" has got to be the worst possible excuse he could have offered.

No explanation is offered for the fact that the coroner found deliberate choking marks on the neck of the infant.

[LisaL]

122. The lawyer also claimed she and the boy had sex one time.

So, why would she think she was having a miscarriage when the infant, according to the article, was full term?

[aikoaiko]

124. Even a cold-hearted liberal such as I think capital murder is an overcharge

Hopefully the DA will entertain a plea bargain for life and hopefully she'll accept.

[okieinpain]

137. whatever, she damn sure knew how to kill the baby. n/t.