General Clark Says McCain Oversold Navy Experience

[FrenchieCat]

Source: Bloomberg

General Clark Says McCain Oversold Navy Experience

June 29 (Bloomberg) -- Retired U.S. Army General Wesley Clark, an adviser to Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, said Republican contender John McCain has oversold his military and national-security experience.

The Arizona senator ``has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world, but he hasn't held executive responsibility,'' Clark, one of Obama's chief foreign policy advisers, said on CBS's ``Face the Nation'' program.

Even the squadron in the Navy that McCain commanded ``wasn't a wartime squadron,'' said Clark, who headed the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and was commander of the NATO bombing campaign during the 1999 Kosovo conflict. ``He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall.''
<>
``I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president,'' Clark said, referring to the incident that led to McCain's being taken prisoner of war in Vietnam.




Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aXcOoughoRFQ&refer=politics

---

About time someone stated the obvious!

[Ian David]

1. Graduated 5th from bottom, killed 168 Americans by wet-starting his plane, was shot down 3 times...

... he killed more Americans and destroyed more American planes than some of the most highly decorated among our enemy.

[hisownpetard]

2. I wish this information got wider coverage.

[Ian David]

3. Well, McCain is a War Hero. To the Vietnamese. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

4. It's up to us to get that done.

Tommorrow is Monday.

But it is up on Yahoo as well......so it is making the runs.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6426998

[elleng]

35. Send it around!

Its our duty!

[VeraAgnes]

8. Maybe that is why his wife is the pilot of his private plane these days.

I read that somewhere last week. Now, it makes more sense that she is the pilot.....He is a kept man for sure.

[Thothmes]

11. BS. He was not shot down 3 times

He was shot down once.

[Ian David]

18. Let me guess... he ejected for no reason at all twice? n/t

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

23. I believe the first two were not in a combat zone...

Don't know what the reason was, but he was not shot down.

Edit: Here's a link with information on at least one incident.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-klein/mccains-secret-questionab_b_107409.html

[ohio2007]

58. The Huffington post you linked shows the two loss of aircraft incidentsbut...

but fishing them out with a copy/paste job could have saved me some hunting time ;)
But then I may have missed the interesting comments left at the bottom ;

-------------------------------------------------------------
...One Saturday morning, as McCain was practicing landings, his engine quit and his plane plunged into Corpus Christi. Knocked unconscious by the impact, he came to as the plane settled to the bottom....McCain was an adequate pilot, but he had no patience for studying dry aviation manuals....


snip


he flew a trainer solo to Philadelphia for the Army-Navy game. Flying by way of Norfolk, he had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. 'I've got a flameout,' he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees."
-----------------------------------------------

I thought he may have had one of these types of accidents;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWbAkrBOeEQ&feature=related
or these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvJ38e3PSms&NR=1
Incidents like those caught on tape could 'brake' a high reaching career


------------------------------

....McCain gives some hint in his memoirs about where he stood in the hierarchy among carrier flyers. Instead of the sleek and newer Phantoms and Crusaders, McCain flew the dependable Douglas A-4 Skyhawk in an attack, not a fighter squadron. He was thus on the lower end of the flying totem pole."

------------------------------


Could have been worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm6kP62vYVM
There are lower rungs in the airwing ladder


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN3p1L3JRps&feature=related


Guess being shot down was the final incident but about the comment section speaking of comedy of errors;


KERRY,OBAMA AND JOHN MCCAIN, AND THE DEMS COMEDY OF ERRORS

In 2004 Democrats claimed that John Kerry was more fit to be commander in chief in time of war than George W. Bush because of his military service in Vietnam and chest full of medals. Now the Dems have gone to the other extreme saying that Obama's lack of military experience and security credentials are his strongest asset against the heroic John McCain to lead this nation in wartime. Is this not a comedy of egregious errors, laughable in the extreme?


snip
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-klein/mccains-secret-questionab_b_107409.html

[Thothmes]

39. Not shot down, airplane crashes, and that happened 3 times.

[SouthernVoter]

14. Come on folks, this BS gives them a big strawman and makes us look stupid.

I thnk there are 9,999 reasons to vote against McSame, but let's not get like the Pugs and start making stuff up.

I assume you are talking about the Forrestal incident. His plane was hit by the rocket that launched, was on the other side of the deck, and had its tail pointing over the edge away from the ship. Even if he did "wet start" he would not have affected the F4 that launched the rocket.

Anyone who says that he caused the fire is an idiot and giving the pigs a big strawman to call the rest of the sane arguments against McCain stupid.

Time to cut it out.

[Ian David]

19. You have a source for that? If I'm wrong, I don't mind being corrected with the facts.

[SouthernVoter]

25. Actually it is you that should provide the source material for your claim

Since you are making the affirmative statement that he in essence caused the incident. The incident is well documented with testimony, video, and deck plans.

The criticism against the soon to be defeated nominee for President is based on no identified sources. I'll keep looking, but so far the only piece of footage I can find showing where he was and him crawling gout of his plane across he deck is in a YouTube campaign video. I'll spare everyone here the vomit inducing video, so I'll keep searching for video without the surrounding theatrics.

Please be clear, your picture is not McSame and the wet start on the Forrestal.

ETA: here is a link to a non-campaign video on the Forrestal during the fire. Notice the arrangement of the planes where the fire and explosions originate. The tails are facing out and away from the deck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

[bertman]

27. Thanks for posting the link to that video. That's some terrible stuff.

I was in OCS at Ft. Benning when that happened and until today did not know about it. We were so isolated from everything it wasn't unusual for us to get news long after the events occurred.


Everyone who says we need to stick to the truth and leave the propaganda manufacturing to the Repigs is right on. McAnus has enough legitimate negatives that we've got plenty of ammo to expose him with.


Our man Wesley Clark is doing just fine with his tack of exposing McAnus' lack of leadership.

[Aviation Pro]

28. Class 0583, Sir, far across the Chatahotchee and all that....

...

[Ian David]

47. It looks like you guy are right. McCain is apparently NOT to blame for the Forestal fire.

I have issued apologies and retractions to my cellphone text message group where I mistakenly shared false info.

Thanks!

[margotb822]

34. You can see McCain jumping out of his plane

At least you can in the original film. The impact was edited out of this clip. His is the one next to the plane that got hit.

The Forrestal incident was an eye-opening incident to the US Navy. Every single thing that could have gone wrong did and the procedures that were in place were completely insufficient.

McCain sucks in a lot of ways, but that fire was not his fault.

[RamboLiberal]

64. Another good source is the book Sailors to the End

as another DU'er recommends below. It's about the Forrestal fire. McCain is only mentioned briefly in the areas where he was in his plane and his escape and a few other short references. The book was written several years ago by a very good writer who has written several historical books. I saw no political agenda in the book.

[AZ Criminal JD]

16. The first four words in your post are true.

Everything else is a lie. Why do posters on this site think they have to lie in order to support Obama? I don't get it.

[Ian David]

17. Please enlighten me. It has been proven that I am wrong exactly 1/12 of the time. n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

32. Other posters have already corrected you.

[ohio2007]

56. You jumped the shark on this one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3374196&mesg_id=3375354

You can trust these findings;




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK7RGpSlJ7Y

and
Barak is going to reprimand Clark over his comments
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/30/1175471.aspx

[Ian David]

60. Agreed. The story of McCain starting the fire is most likely un-true. n/t

[olddad56]

22. not to mention being in the wrong place at the wrong time ......

when the bomb fell off of an F4 aboard the USS Forestal, rolled across the deck, hit his plane and exploded, causing a huge fire that was catastrophic. That doesn't really make him a war hero either.

[Jack_DeLeon]

37. McCain's plane got hit by a rocket I dont see how you can imply he started...

the fire on the Forrestal.

[ohio2007]

McCain flew A-4 Skyhawks, not Phantoms

Accidents aboard USS FORRESTAL
snip

10:52am the crew was starting the second launch cycle of the day, when suddenly a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom into a parked and armed A-4 Skyhawk......
snip

http://navysite.de/cvn/cv59.htm



You didn't see the missile that started the fire ?

oh

you didn't even see the actual video did you ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6l1rwQJjYg&feature=related

this is vid is a remake you'll have to get through the first 6 1/2 minutes of setup before the deck spotting takes shape for the mishap ...
oh,
and who is sitting in the cockpit of the jet between the two pilots being discussed in the documentary ?
Not sr pilot Jim Bangette, the F4 phantom pilot.



moran

[Psephos]

57. Patton graduated absolute bottom

Not sure whether that one's going to get traction.

Attacking McSame on military stuff has big blowback potential. Why not pick the low-lying fruit? There's PLENTY.

[Ian David]

59. At least Patton didn't plaster on the makeup like a trollop. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

61. The wet start information is a bunch of BS - didn't happen that way

I wish DU'ers would quit that piece of trash info.

The rest is fair game though.

[90-percent]

5. McCain's creds

McCain's are comparable to being the only one to survive a commercial plane crash. It was high luck skills that got John to this point.

However, the responsible for 186 deaths because of a wet start might be a left wing fabrication. I read some counter balance on this that he was not the root cause of the tragedy. It was bad maintenance some where near the obsolete bombs loaded on other planes on deck at the time.

Once again, luck more than leadership, irresponsible but not mass murder, in this case.

-90% Jimmy

[progdonkey]

29. I think it might actually be RW...

There are a lot of people on the extreme extreme batshit-insane Right who have peddled the idea that McCain is a sort of Manchurian Candidate, and one of the other smears is this Forrestal thing. It's almost 9/11-ish in the way you have video proof that it was nothing "weird," but people make outlandish conspiracy claims anyway.

McCain is not a war hero. He's not a very honorable or decent man. He left his debilitated wife for a much younger whore/sugarmama (sugardaughter?), whom he publicly called a trollop and cunt. And so on.

There are so many reasons why this guy doesn't deserve to be president (or even a senator, for that matter), and they're all much better established than this idea he killed 168 people on the Forrestal.

[BeatleBoot]

6. This is the stuff that will get us in the White House

and it is long overdue.

Keep up the pressure from this angle and we have a really good chance of winning.

[FreakinDJ]

7. Elect McCain and the economy goes down in flames like his planes

[kestrel91316]

9. McCain's record of plane crashes is a demonstration of why it was

probably a GOOD thing for America that Bush was AWOL from his TANG squadron.

Spoiled rich brats don't belong in the pilot's seat.

[Politicub]

10. Go, Clark, go!!

I'm glad that someone is setting the record straight about Mr. Straight-talk McCain.

[lilyannerose]

12. Amen!

[Thothmes]

13. So What

What military executive experience did JFK have, What about LBJ, or Nixon, or Ford or Carter, or Bush I. Notice all of these men served in the United States Navy. Not the Army.

[Zuiderelle]

15. They didn't pretend to have more experience. That's the difference.

[quiet.american]

20. Somebody had to say it, and none better to do it than Gen. Clark. nt

[WoodyM]

21. Even the General gets it wrong.

McCain flew a plane rigged as a bomber, not a fighter. Anyone remember Jane “Hanoi” Fonda? The picture of her in North Vietnam seated on an antiaircraft gun? A type of weapon that was obsolete in the early days of World War ll. This type of weapon shot him down because he repeatedly flew below the altitude he was instructed to fly at in areas that was known to have this AAA gun.

[minnesota_liberal]

30. Fighter vs midget carrier-based bomber

When most people think of a "bomber," they think of a B-52 or some other beast.

You are technically correct but splitting hairs.

[MilesColtrane]

24. Clark, having the skins he has, is one of the few men out there...

...who can criticize McCain for exaggerating his command experience.

Part of a vice presidential candidate's role is to attack, and Clark is giving a hell of an audition because he's going after McCain's (perceived) strength, not pussyfooting around with esoteric policy flaws that don't even register with most voters.

Clark's not calling him a coward, or denigrating his service, just telling the truth about his record.

It's a clean, powerful body blow and the General is the only guy who could throw it and get away with it.

[bjobotts]

26. Google the USS Forrestal and see how McCain got 134 fellow crewmen burned alive

[AZ Criminal JD]

33. The people on this post can't keep their lies straight.

One poster says McCain killed 134 people, one says 168, one says 186. Come on guys, get your stories together. It will make it more interesting.

[Jack_DeLeon]

38. Thats a lie...

and people who repeat it make our side sound like we are ignorant.

[minnesota_liberal]

44. Graduating 4th from the bottom and crashing 5 planes is true

but the bit about McCain causing the Forrestal fire is unsubstantiated.

[RamboLiberal]

62. He had 3 crashes not 5

I wouldn't call the Forrestal fire or the shoot down his fault.

[minnesota_liberal]

65. 3 crashes, 1 incinerated, 1 downed by antiquated AAA.

Happy?

:boring:

[madrchsod]

31. clark for vp? sure is looking that way.....

he would be an excellent choice.

[spag68]

36. USS Forrestal

I'm surprised that the supposedly savvy posters here have not found the book, "Sailors to the End". IMHO this is a very good good book on the Forrestal fire. It's a quick read{273 pages}. It has notes and a good depiction of the deck, at that time. It is not really about McSame, however it is no recommendation of him as a hero. Written by Gregory A. Freeman

[ohio2007]

49. "Learn or Burn" The story of The USS Forrest Fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I
Anybody know who was aboard the A-4 Skyhawk they mention at the begining of the above clip ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxGV-eRUC_0&feature=related

dunno the truth to this breaking news story but there is a band of brothers with a common history who could discuss it imo

[RamboLiberal]

63. Yep I've read that book a few months ago and highly

recommend it to DU'ers who continue to spread the false McCain wet start story and that he was responsible for the Forrestal fire. Completely not true.

[jzodda]

40. I don't agree with this tactic

It could easily backfire. The guy did spend years of his life locked up due to military service. I am not saying that what Clark said is not true, but this attack could inflame those who are lukewarm on McCain to start to back him. I think they should stay away from this issue. This could anger especially older voters and veterans.

How clinton ran against Dole is textbook on how to run against an older Vet with wartime experience. The fact that McCain spent all those years locked up makes this especially delicate. I think its a bad idea. Could help McCain raise lots of money too. I want the right wing to stay in their slumber this election cycle. Last thing we need is for something to energize them.

[minnesota_liberal]

41. Attack their strong points

McCain's claimed advantage over Obama is his military background, which is supposed to translate into Commander in Chief capability by some strange logic.

The truth is that McCain's military background is not so impressive.

As long as he's given credit for the time spent and abuse sustained as a POW, the rest of his military history should be fair game.

Edited: Corrected typo

[jzodda]

43. Its a terrible strategy

If the party takes this on as a mainstream line of attack then we are in trouble in November. All those independents and Repubs who we either want to vote for us or stay home are going to get VERY angry over this line of attack. McCain's POW status means something on an emotional level even if Clark is right about McCain's lack of command experience. That won't matter to most. What will matter is that his military service will be perceived as being tarred, even though he spent 5 years locked up. We don't want that. We are already on our way to winning this election if we stay on message about the economy. This could become a huge distraction and it won't be good for us.

Just one mans opinion.

[nels25]

46. If you play the game that way

than do not be at all surprised if the lack of military background for Barack and several key Democrats can put in play.

After all fair is fair, and the RW has been doing it ever since Viet Nam, and lets face facts:

A: We have to some degree earned our reputation as soft on defense.

B: The RW is very good using this to it's advantage.

C: By and large the great bulk of the population are going to be insulted and offended if we make sustained use of this tactic.

But hey if hate gets you this far, than by all means use it.

Me I am a vet, and I am highly offended, just as I was 4 years ago.

Oh and one question, why was it okay for us to be outraged when Senator Kerry's legitimate war record was challenged in 2004, but it is perfectly find for us to act in the same way 4 years later??

Just asking??

[minnesota_liberal]

66. Attacking McCain's "strengths" by facts and fact-based opinion isn't hate

But it is something that could easily backfire. I'll give you that.

As for John Kerry's military record, it wasn't just "questioned" in 2004. It was challenged by ignorant political hacks through innuendo and outright lies, including ads and a fake documentary. I think that's even where the term, "swiftboating" came from.

Clark's statements about McCain's military back ground don't even come close.

But, hey, if making flawed comparisons is your game, go for it.

[treestar]

42. I hate it when they call him a "war hero."

My first thought is, if John Kerry was not a "war hero," then McLame certainly isn't.

Second thought is, that if McLame is a war hero, so is everyone who ever served during wartime.

Third thought is, so what? Being a "war hero" is no reason why anyone should be President. The office is not a reward or a consolation.

[nels25]

45. Okay I was afraid this would start happening.

We were outraged when Kerry's war record was attacked (and though it is to be respected, their can be no doubt that John McCain's is superior, if for no other reason than 5 years in Hanoi Hilton should count for something)

But now 4 years later when we have everything that we could possibly want to be going our way, why lets shit on McCain for having the audacity to be shot down and held POW.

Why his stay in North Vietnam was really a cake walk was it not?

Look I have stated on DU on more than one occasion that I would and do find it extremely offensive if Senator McCain's service was attacked in such a bull shit manner.

Hate if you absolutely must, and if it makes you feel good.

Me I am still going to vote for Obama, and hope to God he repudiates this garbage and tells Big Eddy to stifle and Clark to apologize, this is way beyond the pale.

Those of you who approve of this are in my way of thinking need to stop and consider what service to the nation means, and don't try to sell me this tripe that on one hand you want to "support the troops" and on the other poop on McCain's service. You can not have it both ways.

Resist him (McCain) on issues and political grounds, leave his service to the nation the hell out of it. And I especially mean this if you have never put the uniform on and served. Until you do you have no right to judge. And Wesly Clark know's a damm sight better than to say what he did.

I respect his service he should respect McCains service.

I am disgusted by this sort of behavior, just as I was 4 years ago.

To quote a famous lawyer (my apologies but I do not remember his name) during the McCarthy/Army hearings: HAVE YOU NO SHAME???

[solara]

55. Sorry, but I agree with Gen.Clark who, btw, also said that he honored Sen. McCain for his sacrifice

and for his service to our country..So, in fact, he did NOT "attack" Senator McCain or his service..

McCain's war record was not attacked and you certainly cannot compare what Gen. Clark said on Sunday's 'Face the Nation' with the swiftboating of Sen Kerry.. I mean really.. get a grip.

McCain's ads are pretty much telling the voters that he is more qualified to be President than Sen Obama BECAUSE of his experience as a POW ... I wouldn't for one minute try to take anything away from Sen. McCain's service to our country and I honor him as I honor all our vets...but please tell me how Sen. McCain's experience as a POW taught him how to govern this country.. please.

Being a POW does not automatically qualify someone to be President..

no matter who he/she is.





INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT INCARCERATE :patriot:

[Doremus]

67. Gen. Clark voiced his opinion.

This isn't an organized Swiftboat campaign.

Clark, a GENERAL, offered his opinion and backed it with facts. He's not some political hack; he's got the credentials to make a judgment.

The repigs made up LIES about Kerry and it was anything but detrimental to them. This is so not deserving of all your angst.

[4_TN_TITANS]

48. WTF is Clark doing?

You couldn't hand McCain a better lead-in to discussion of Obama's ZERO military experience.

[high density]

50. Obviously you failed to watch the interview

It's Obama's judgment vs. McCain's judgment. And the fact that being shot down or serving does not give you instant national security credentials. John Kerry was not given a pass on his service, and we will not give them a pass on McCain's service, either.

[solara]

51. Schiffer's reaction to Clark's statement was very interesting

Clark's "He hasn't held executive responsibility" statement about McCain alarmed Schiffer and prompted him to interrupt Clark saying "How can you say such a thing? He was a war hero!!! " ( paraphrased)

And we are told that the corporate media is balanced and unbiased.. :rofl:

Seemed to me that Schiffer became a bit 'unbalanced' when Clark spoke the truth about McCain so boldly.



INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT INCARCERATE :patriot:

[Nevernose]

52. And specifically his facial expression when Clark said being a POW

And specifically his facial expression when Clark said being a POW isn't a qualification for being president.

At least someone from our side finally went on TV and said something to the effect of "How the heck does being a POW make someone qualified to be president?"

[solara]

53. Exactly! I applaud Wes Clark - hopefully he has set the bar

for other Dems who appear on these "unbiased" "news" shows.


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT INCARCERATE :patriot:

[KneelBeforeZod]

54. This really isn't a good idea ...

I don't think this particular line of attack is a good idea. Maybe McCain overstated, maybe he didn't. I don't know.

But, questioning the service of a man that spent 5-years in a Vietnamese POW camp -- a man who, to this day, cannot lift his arms above his shoulders and walks with a limp because of how many times his legs were broken ... is a MONUMENTALLY rotten idea.

This is truly the kind of idea that can lose an election for us. Mark my words -- this will backfire, big time.

KBZ