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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 10:01 PM
Original message
Pension plans suffer huge losses
Source: CNN Money

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Falling stock markets around the globe and the credit crunch are putting the pension funds of some of the largest U.S. companies into deeper financial holes, according to a report released Monday.

Since the credit crunch hit last fall, pension plans funded by S&P 1500 companies have lost about $280 billion in assets, according to an actuary at Mercer, a human resources consulting firm.

On paper, the losses from last October tally $160 billion. However, according to Mercer actuary Adrian Hartshorn, the asset losses are closer to $280 billion when pension plan assets and liabilities are considered together. The losses amount to about 7% of a total $4 trillion in pension plan assets.

Companies should be concerned, he said, because - assuming no change in the market - a typical U.S. company can expect their pension expenses to increase between 20% and 30% in 2009. That's due to the higher cost of servicing the pension plan's debt and the smaller return from the plan's assets.

Read more: http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/07/pf/retirement/pension_losses/index.htm
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Not a robought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. So how is that supposed to work again?
where in lieu of Social Security, the plan for retirement is to contribute and get all the money out of the stock market?

Nuts for you if you're retiring during a down market cycle.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Here's how...You NEVER stop working!
Dad was able to retire at 63, after 45 years of work. He had an adequate pension and Social Security.

Thanks to the Borrow and Spend Republic Party, my generation will never have such things. The Republic Party version of Social Security is having the elderly work flipping burgers, baking pizzas, frying chicken or greeting at a Wal Mart. Those lucky to match six lotto numbers will be able to retire, everyone else wont retire till they drop dead.
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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Yes, and as a baby boomer.....
I'm a bit sick and tired of hearing about the "greatest generation" and how us baby boomers are so spoiled and didn't plan for our retirement. My husband and I have worked for many years now but once ole' Reagan took office the laws were gutted protecting the little guy. I vividly remember how they sold the public a bill of goods about how rich everyone would be if they just invested the maximum in their IRA 's. They would have a million dollars after 35 years. Well guess what? It didn't work that way. Even if you were a diligent saver you aren't likely to be a millionaire now.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. The problem is that there were no contributions.
I am not an expert on pensions. However, as a tax CPA, I know all the balances I have seen at companies we audited had HUGE unfunded liabilities. I am a firm believer that if you consistently invest (i.e. every other week) and truly dollar cost average over a 40 year time horizon, you will outperform 80% of the investments out there, including social security. This is why I like 401(k) match's more than pensions.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. The GOP's YOYO strategery is now in effect.
YOYO = You're On Your Own.

There are exceptions made for large corporations and major patriotic donors to the GOP.

You already knew that.

Now, pack your shit up and get out of that house. It's been foreclosed.

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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. No shit? My pension was terminated 3/31/2003 (US Airways Pilot Pension Fund)
This money was stolen from me. Get that straight! US Airway's survival was not indeed predicated on stealing the pilots' (and later, other employees') pensions. Their pockets had already been lined by the 9/11 bailout money.

The then-CEO (Dave Siegel) bailed-out a few months after my pension was terminated (by a GOP-appointed federal bankruptcy judge) with a little $10-million pat-on-the-ass.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. GM is about to do the same thing (they will file Chapter 11)
All those pesky UAW Benefits and Retirements will be as common as a living T-Rex
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. 10-4 buddy!
I love telling this shit to the Kool-Aid drinkers. Did it tonight. They left the table shaking.

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. That kind of shit is taking place every stinking place one turns.
Edited on Mon Jul-07-08 11:26 PM by lonestarnot
A screwing up a screwing down, sideways and upside down. Woohoo! "Freedom is nothing left to lose." Janice Joplin
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.--Kris Kristofferson.
Janice only sang it.

Sorry 'bout the pedantry.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Speaking of pedantry, it was Janis, not Janice.
So there.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Right you are.
:blush:
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I saw how ERISA and the PGBC screwed Western PA Steelworkers
In the early 80s, the steel mills in Western Pa all shut down. Folks who put 40+ years in the mills got screwed out of their pensions when the crooks running the steel companies dumped their pensions on PGBC and got golden parachutes for themselves. Folks only got pennies on the dollars they were promised, and they lost their company insurance too. The final blow came a couple years back when retired workers now in their 80s lost their health care.

They played by the rules and the Republic Party raped them.

Meanwhile the executives laughed all the way to the bank. They had their golden parachutes. Everyone else got a golden shower thanks to the Republic Party!
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'm in (big ante) suits against US Airways and the PBGC.
Sorry. That's all I can say.
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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. My husband worked for a truck manufacturer....
that filed bankruptcy. The employees had to file a class action suit to get anything as far as a pension was concerned. After working there 12 years and the suit took 10 years to settle, he got a check for a lousy $3400. A lot of the employees had worked there for 40+ years.

People who still believe their pensions are safe are living in a dreamworld. Nothing guarantees you'll get what you were promised when you were hired.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Jeez, ya know--you sound bitter.
You should be happy to have contributed to the fiscal well-being of your betters.

In my case, after a lot of years I "retired" from a state job at 62. My entire retirement check (minus about $25 a month) goes to cover my health insurance. I don't expect to retire. Ever.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oh, that's not so bad...
Edited on Mon Jul-07-08 11:24 PM by Massacure
For a second I thought I read Pentagon plans to suffer huge losses.

Better this than that!

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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. For over 6 months I have tried to warn my friends about pension losts
Not one person wanted to hear it.
2 of them are not speaking to me anymore.

In 2005 we closed out our pension funds, gaining control over it.
3/4 is now in cash.

That 401 k plan to let companies invest money for the workers turned out to be a huge one sided gamble.

So, let's see now...the government has taken our jobs,our houses,our Bill of Rights, is making gas, food, and medicine unaffordable, wants more and more of our taxes, has devalued our savings and pensions, is aiming for our Soc. Sec. and is back door drafting our kids, all so a few thousand richer men can become richer over oil.

And in return we get a gullible populace hypnotized by the false promises of the Democrats in Congress, or terrified by the BS lies of the Repubs.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:




















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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I had a small 401(k) from my brief teaching career
not enough to retire on. I chose to withdraw it to pay debts (have to withdraw only part of it each year). Some people warned me against this, even though the amount was not nearly enough to retire on, at least not for more than one year. When I ran into trouble a couple of years ago, I decided to withdraw it, on the theory that I was better off becoming debt-free than getting a ridiculously small payout from a pension fund that hasn't kept up with inflation.

I expect to work for the rest of my life anyway and can as long as my brain holds out.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-07-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. They should have invested it all in oil futures. n/t
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. AHHH.... the "special" GOP TAXES are kicking in.....
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
17. And this is how they want to run Social Security... nt
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
18. So, funds invest in the stock market, pensions take the hit......
invest in the stock market AND commodities and we all take the hit?? And then there's the "bubble" issue, indicating that the people with pension funds invested in commodities are getting hit like the rest of us but have a vested interest in commodity prices staying high. (It's a real question -- I'm very good at some things....economics aren't among them.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/06/AR2008070601833_pf.html

Pension Funds Boosted By Oil
While Stocks Fall, Commodity Bets Are Paying Off

Soaring fuel prices that are burning a hole in the wallets of consumers are not only benefiting oil companies and Middle Eastern producers. They are also lighting up the investment returns of pensions funds, which millions of ordinary Americans are counting on for their retirement.

California's public employees' pension fund, the world's largest, made its first investment of $1.1 billion into oil and other commodities early last year, and since then, Calpers has seen it soar 68 percent. Fairfax County pension managers have enjoyed a 61 percent return from a similar move over the past 12 months, far outpacing any other segment of the fund's portfolio.
.........

Investors, including pension funds and Wall Street speculators, have sharply increased their commodity allocations since 2003, from $13 billion to $260 billion, making financial actors an even larger force on these markets than farmers, airlines, trucking firms and companies that buy and sell the physical goods to run their businesses.

Pension funds are among the biggest of these financial investors, according to industry analysts, but the extent of their involvement has not been tallied.
..........

That changed after the stock market crashed in 2001. Fund managers realized they needed more diversified portfolios that would perform well regardless of whether stocks did. At the same time, new financial products simplified trading by allowing big funds to buy into commodity indexes, which work like mutual funds, that were run by Wall Street firms, mainly Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley.

Other investors also began buying commodities, including university endowments, hedge funds and big banks. But their investment strategy has been different than that of pensions funds. Many of these investors use trading techniques to make money when commodity prices both rise and fall, while pension funds mostly try to maximize their return over the long term by betting that oil and other commodities will increase in price well into the future. The approach adopted by pension funds has been a concern for some lawmakers because it pushes up prices by increasing demand for futures contracts.

The increase in commodity prices has been so sharp that some pension managers are worried about a possible crash. Partly for that reason, the Virginia Retirement System has decided to stay away.
............

Whether pension funds and other investors are behind the rise in food and fuel prices has sparked a heated debate on Capitol Hill and pitted powerful interest groups against one another. The airlines and other industry associations say the influx of investment money is creating a bidding war for commodity contracts and contributing to higher gas and food prices, hindering companies that need the goods for their businesses.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/may2008/db20080520_524455.htm

Are Pension Funds Fueling High Oil?

If you're wondering why driving to work has gotten so expensive, you might want to peruse your pension fund's investments. That's because speculation by institutional investors pouring money into the commodities market may be largely to blame for spiking oil prices, according to testimony on May 20 before the Senate Committee on Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs. Crude oil, a so-called hard asset, is viewed as a buffer against inflation—a foe of longer-term investment returns. At the hearing, "Financial Speculation in Commodity Markets: Are Institutional Investors and Hedge Funds Contributing to Food and Energy Price Inflation?," senators heard from those defending the role of speculators in oil and commodities markets as well as those who argue that excessive speculation is the root of global price surges.

" are experiencing demand shock from a new category of speculators: institutional investors like corporate and government pension funds, university endowments, and sovereign wealth funds," said Michael Masters, managing member of Masters Capital Management, a Virgin Islands-based hedge fund. "Index speculators are the primary cause of the recent price spikes in commodities."

.......
But in the hearing, Masters distinguished between traditional speculators and what he calls index speculators, or passive investors who enter the commodities markets as a long-term hedge against inflation. Commodities exchanges limit the number of positions an investor can take in the market, but Masters says the Commodity Futures Trading Commission has allowed unlimited speculation in these markets through a loophole. This so-called swaps loophole exempts investment banks like Goldman Sachs (GS) and Merrill Lynch (MER) from reporting requirements and limits on trading positions that are required of other investors. The loophole allows pension funds to enter into a swap agreement with an investment bank, which can then trade unlimited numbers of the contracts in futures markets.

Some experts fault the CFTC, charged with regulating commodities markets, for allowing such loopholes. "Congress has provided the CFTC the power to control this unlimited ; the law is very specific about establishing position limits," says Steve Briese, author of The Commitments of Traders Bible and CommitmentsOfTraders.org, a site that focuses on U.S. futures markets. "The problem is they have abdicated this role." The dramatic surge in energy prices has helped to spark inflation across the economy and, as others at the hearing testified, has cut into profits of most in the supply chain. Briese points to Treasury reports that the top five users of swap agreements are investment banks, four of which dominate swap dealing in commodities and commodities futures: Bank of America (BAC), Citigroup (C), JPMorgan Chase (JPM), HSBC North America Holdings (HBC), and Wachovia (WB).

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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. A little basic econ is needed here ...
Based on previous history, all these pension funds will still make money in the long term. In its history, the stock market has always seen an increase in any 11 year period, so even though the pensions are taking losses now, they will make gains in the future if history holds. The problem lies in whether or not these companies stay in business. I know more than a few DUers who will be rejoicing when GM closes its doors and fork over their money to a Japanese company who has no unions and no legacy benefits for its employees.
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mikeytherat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. GM will not sell to the Japanese - it's going to the Chinese
Expect to see "Chevrolets" as imports, from China, by 2015.

mikey_the_rat
pissed-off GM shareholder from a GM family
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Heywood J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. 2015? It's happening now. Those have been in the works for some time.
Edited on Tue Jul-08-08 08:59 PM by Heywoodj
The Chevy Epica, Chevy Aveo, Pontiac Wave, Pontiac G3 at least are planned to be made in Shanghai. Saturns are being made in Mexico, as are Ford and Chrysler. Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac are already making vehicles in China for domestic production - it won't even take that long until someone bribes their way through the regulatory hurdles.


Want a Jiangling Landwind, anyone? Chinese SUVs are already being sold in Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Ts94rjr4M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Swzbt76wBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D827IxEJVS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YbDCvrBBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bDsgz2Jmz8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq4J2M6q90

(these are about a minute or two each)
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