McCain and Obama Agree to Attend Megachurch Forum

[depakid]

Source: NY Times



It has taken a man of God, perhaps, to do what nobody else has been able to do since the general election season began: Get Barack Obama and John McCain together on the same stage before their party conventions later this summer.

The Rev. Rick Warren has persuaded the candidates to attend a forum at his Saddleback Church, in Lake Forest, Calif., on Aug. 16. In an interview, Mr. Warren said over the weekend that the presidential candidates would appear together for a moment but that he would interview them in succession at his megachurch.

Word of the forum came as a leading conservative Christian, James C. Dobson, signaled that he might reverse his position and endorse Mr. McCain, The Associated Press reported...

...Mr. Warren’s event will have as a co-sponsor Faith in Public Life, the multidenominational religious group that held the Compassion Forum at Messiah College in Grantham, Pa., in April, featuring Mr. Obama and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton in Pennsylvania during their primary fight. Mr. Warren said he would devise his questions with input from the Muslim, Jewish and Christian leaders associated with the group.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/21/us/politics/21church.html

[seriousstan]

1. I see Obama giving religion a commanding role n his presidency.

[Common Sense Party]

2. Does that bother you? Do you think it's the wrong move?

[snowbear]

7. It won't be a wrong move when Obama becomes President...

Because we'll know that the program wasn't set up for the sole purposes of appeasing a small group of evangelicals that were so proud of the Bush Administratration for having a FB Program === yet who were unaware it wasn't being used as David Kuo had intended it to be.

I have a feeling that when we have a President Obama, he will appoint Mike Papantonio---> (Ring of Fire/Sundays/Air America Radio) and he would likley see if David Kuo would come back to his job and actually DO what he really wanted to do when he first took the fake job....


~~ And all will be well in the Whitehouse! ~~

[Skittles]

10. YES

it SUCKS

[MJJP21]

16. It bothers me!

You asked if it bothers someone if Obama makes religion a cornerstone of his presidency. Well, it bothers me and it should bother everyone. It is religion that has put us in Iraq. It is this idea that somehow an unknown , unrecognizable unproved invisible entity is somehow pulling strings with his creatures like a cat plays with a mouse is accepted as possible by educated and supposedly thinking adults. Then we in our infinite ignorance and ego believe that somehow we are able to convince this being to change his perfect plan by mumbling phrases, gathering together, groveling , and other insane behavior. It was Bush himself into the run up to the war admitted that "God spoke to him" and told him to do what he did. Do we really need more of the same mindset and do we really need to encourage it? Believing doesn't make something true.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

[awoke_in_2003]

23. It should bother anyone

who has a grasp of what this country is about. Over the last 20 years, religion has taken on a bigger and bigger role in our government, and look where it has gotten us- less tolerance, both racially and sexually, slow reversal of what gains women have made in our society, and several holy wars.

[fjc]

32. Religion also brought us the civil rights and peace movements,

not to mention the anti-slavery movement. People who condemn religion out of hand exercise the same kind of fundamentalism they claim to be above. There is good religion and bad religion, and there will always be religion. Better to learn how to do theology on behalf of good religion than to dismiss religion as somehow beneath what it means to be human.

[Nevernose]

39. We wouldn't have needed the civil rights or peace movements

Had religion not been responsible for most slavery and war in the first place.

Granted, some religious beliefs are more tolerable than others, and most of us tend to condmen some religious beliefs more than others. If I had to pick a roommate, I'd obviously pick the Quaker pacifist over the Wahhabi suicide bomber (and I'd love to see the ad in the paper that brought these two people knocking at my door!). What a lot of us are saying though is that adhering to superstition in any form can't be too good for reason, logic, or morality. We should be making decisions about ethics and politics based on sound reasoning and good morals, not on what people perceive the Easter Bunny's wishes to be.

And if we can't have that, we at least expect a full divorce from public policy and private religion.

Full disclosure: although an insistent atheist, I'm also a Unitarian. My kid likes the youth program, but I'm mostly in it for the coffee and the John Lennon songs.

[fjc]

42. It's all in the definition then, isn't it.

Defining religion as superstition makes it easy to dismiss, doesn't it. I'm a Unitarian as well, and I have to say, though perhaps it was tongue in cheek, that you hardly need a UU congregation for coffee and John Lennon songs. You can do that all by yourself. Be that as it may, being an atheist and opposing religion as superstition does not insure sound reasoning and good morals. Just within the Unitarian intellectual tradition, there is tons of sound reasoning and good morals that proceeded from quite different premises than atheism. Most, if not all the great moral reformers of our movement, right up to James Luther Adams, were not atheists. And there is no reason whatever pertaining to poor reasoning or morals within the tradition itself to have abandoned theology. Having done so, as a movement and as a culture, is in my mind one of the reasons for the ascendancy of the very people you're opposed to.

[Zhade]

43. Religion didn't do those things -- good people who HAPPENED TO BE religious did.

Get that straight.

[kwassa]

46. Those good religious people would probably disagree with you.

They would see their religion as their inspiration for their goodness.

[Marrah_G]

37. Yes and I'm not sure if it will help or hurt his campaign

[Runcible Spoon]

40. bothers the fuck out of me.

sigh.

[Zhade]

44. Me too. It borders on the illegal.

He'd best be careful not to violate the separation of church and state!

[DFLforever]

6. That's not going to happen - as you probably well know.

I'm not religious but I do appreciate Obama's ability to go into this type of church forum and speak of his values and beliefs - taking away the fears these people may have of a Democratic victory this November.

[iamthebandfanman]

20. maybe to himself

but not in policy.

[marshall]

26. Going back to his (and the country's) roots

It really is the foundation that made this country unique and strong.

[Flagg]

27. I thought it was democracy

[mitchum]

33. Nonsense

[Bake]

36. There's nothing unique about the intermingling of church and state.

See: History of Europe. Wars. Inquisitions (wasn't expecting THAT, huh!). Enrichment of the clergy. Etc.

One thing that made (note, past tense) the United States different, if not entirely unique, was its insistence on the separation of church and state.

Bake

[Marrah_G]

38. Oh bullshit

It is democracy based largely on the idea of separation of church and state by a group of largely secular Masons.

Take a look around the world at what happens when religion becomes entwined with government.

[Zhade]

45. This is NOT a christian nation. It was NOT founded on religion!

NT!

[snowbear]

3. Obama will literally blow the old man away on yet another topic--Christianity

If you've noticed, the most old man McSame generally will do is to stand by some well known pastor and accept their endorsement... (after his campaign has had to plea for it for months)

As far as Faith Forums of any kind --- he's never been involved in one.

Obama knows the bible inside out and the old man will regret the day he ever agreed to attend this one...

[Mind_your_head]

4. What you said. eom

[liberalmuse]

5. If he can pull in some fundie votes this way, I'm all for it.

I think it's a good idea to have Obama and McCain in the same room, where hopefully people are thinking, 'WWJD?' Who am I kidding? We know that most fundies don't really think like that, because few think at all for themselves if they're still believing that crap. Jesus Christ (D) and Beezelbub (R) could be standing in front of them, and we all know who they'd vote for before either even opened their mouths. They're brainwashed, and Obama isn't going to change their already-made-up minds.

[frog92969]

14. The repugs thought they wanted the fundie vote too...

now look at the mess they've got.
The christian agenda is no different than the neocon agenda, if they take over both parties it'll be like living under the taliban.
Let them keep fucking the other party, we have plenty of moles as it is.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. The Republicans have led the fundamentalists around by the nose

not the other way around. Don't be fooled; religion is simply their cover.

And, though it really ought not to have to be repeated ad nauseam around here, "religion" is not synomymous with fundamentalist, conservative Christian.

[awoke_in_2003]

24. ""religion" is not synomymous with fundamentalist"

That is correct, but if we let religion keep infiltrated all areas of politics, then religion will become synonymous with politics.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. That doesn't worry me, it really doesn't

here's why: politicians certainly have uses for religion. Some have pretty well raised using religion and religious people to an artform (see Rove and Bush). And anything politicians can use, they will use, let's face it.

But politics really doesn't have the same to offer religion. In fact, the separations guaranteed by the 1st Amendment are every bit as important to religious groups as to our secular government. They really don't want anyone fussing around in their business.

Now, there are certainly people - involved as careers in religion or in politics or in both, who have perfected how to exploit religious organizations and people to further their political aims. THAT'S the problem, and those are the people who need to be exposed for what they are - and I think that's beginning to happen. I also think that when politicians like Obama begin to meet with people of faith - all faiths, it takes the curse off it, as my Irish grandmother would say. He shortchanges the political plans of those who had figured on using entire blocks of religious people to their own ends.

[TlalocW]

8. Megachurches make me itchy

I accompanied a friend to one - she was going through a mini-crisis of faith and felt comfortable at it. It was an interesting experience. The building was boxy, not traditionally churchy in any way. Its name was on the side of the church in giant bubble neon letters, and the name of the church was its website. When you walked in to the right was the kids' area. You went through a small round tunnel that was made up to look like it was the inside of a tree trunk with large cartoony bugs that lit up. There was a large animatronic tree that would have Biblical discussions with the two birds in its branches. The outside of the sanctuary looked like the outside of a movie theater with display boxes showing a poster of what the sermon was about (like how movie theaters show what's currently playing). Across from its doors was the bookstore/coffee shop. When you entered the sanctuary, there was a rock band playing popular songs with the words replaced to be more religious, and at least 3 big screen TVs.

The minister came on and sat on a stool to talk to us. The sermon was about the Passion of the Christ, which had just come out. The minister talked to us and then dramatically bowed his head as the lights on him went down, and the TVs snapped to life to show the same minister out in the woods carrying a railroad tie, talking about the cross Jesus had to carry, etc. At the very end of the video segment as he's about to walk off camera, instead of just dropping the tie from his shoulder to land on the ground, he instead throws it up and over this head to land on the opposite side of his body where he was carrying it. I actually laughed and said, "Oooh, manly!" to the chagrin of my friend and the annoyance of the minister who gave me a dirty look.

TlalocW

[Skittles]

12. hey Tlaloc

what was the minister's point supposed to be with the railroad tie and the movie? :o

[TlalocW]

25. Well, he was comparing the weight of the tie to the weight of the cross Jesus had to carry

But then showed us he was manlier than Jesus by heaving it over his head.

TlalocW

[iamthebandfanman]

21. really? all churches do it for me. n/t

[TrogL]

9. This is a trap

This preacher dude will warp Obama's words to say anything the preacher wants.

McCain will get a free ride.

[snowbear]

11. I don't know Trog.. Rick Warren is pretty fond of Barack..

If they do this thing, it will be at least the 3rd time they've gotten together.. They spend a lot of time in idle chat alone with each other after these events...

Who knows?

Maybe Warren isn't the same sleazebags as the Dobsons and people who need to "FOCUS ON THEIR OWN DAMN FAMILIES!"

I don't think Warren has even met mcDud yet?

[JerseygirlCT]

29. He's not a liberal by any account, but he's also not

a devious evil SOB like Dobson, Fallwell or Robertson.

From all I've read about him, he's pretty genuine in his beliefs, and I don't think he's really got a political agenda.

[TrogL]

30. He's the "Purpose Driven Life" dude

and his parallel book on churches has divided many congregations.

Here's his views on megachurches. http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80

[Lance_Boyle]

41. what car(s) did his church buy for him?

how many square feet (acres?) of house did his church buy for him? Is his private jet church-owned?

Yeah, he's as big an evil SOB as any of the rest of them.

[truthisfreedom]

13. Obama always wins.

He's headed for the Oval Office, and unless the Secret Service lets him down, I expect to see him there come January.

[SwiperFox]

15. ...

McCain and Obama bow to the same agenda. Why cant you see this?


Obama uses crucial foreign tour to promise more troops for Afghanistan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3403071

[Indenturedebtor]

31. Keep reading the news and you'll change your mind about that

Though they may agree on a couple of issues it does not mean that they are agents of the same agenda. Obama intends MANY departures from the Bush agenda - which puts him in opposition to the "designs" of McPoopypants.

[SwiperFox]

35. Right...

Let's see what we can find about this Obama individual...Enabling FISA and then end of the Fourth Amendment? Perpetuating the fake war on the "terrists"? Backing Israel unconditionally? saber-rattling at Iran? Further blurring the line separating church and state? Approving the death penalty? Tell me, what is that great difference that I should be reading between the lines of televised/printed propaganda? I suggest pulling the pedestal from underneath this clay "messiah", this fraud. He is not president yet and already has broken promises and pushed lies. Has he actively opposed Bush or clamored for his impeachment? Has he disclosed what this war on terra sham is all about? The hijackers were Saudis, not Iraqis or Afghanis. Who is this Obama anyway? What has he done besides eloquently promise, betray, lie and then promise some more?

Why can't people pull the blinds off?!?! ;(

[rox63]

17. Obama will come out ahead here

McCain is very uncomfortable talking about religion and faith. Obama is not uncomfortable with the subject at all. Obama will come off very well to a crowd that is used to multimedia presentations. McCain will look like Grandpa Simpson. Obama can talk intelligently about how faith informs his life. McCain will go on and on about abortion, gays and guns. He'll look more like a looney old coot than someone you'd trust to have a cool head around nuclear weapons.

[panzerfaust]

19. Now if only eithe candidate would agree to participate

in a discussion in a science forum (both have turned down the opportunity many times)

[Flagg]

22. Churches should never be mega anything

[Pale Blue Dot]

34. It's funny how McCain doesn't agree to appear with Obama at the ACLU. Why is that?

Oh yeah... it's because this pandering bullshit DOES NOT WORK.