U chancellor defends instructor who defiled Eucharist, tore Qur'an

[Sgent]

Source: Star Tribune (Minn. / St. Paul)

By PAUL WALSH, Star Tribune

The chancellor at the University of Minnesota, Morris, is standing up for a faculty member's freedom of expression after the instructor posted on the Internet a photo of a defiled communion wafer with pages ripped from the Qur'an.

Paul Z. Myers, who teaches biology at the west-central Minnesota school, on his blog this week posted a picture of the wafer with a rusty nail through it and torn pages from the Qur'an. Also in the photo are tattered pages from a book by biologist Richard Dawkins that scoffs at the notion of a superior being.

<cut>

In response to Myers' latest posting, the Catholic League, which for years has been actively challenging any instances it sees as an affront to Catholicism, said Thursday in a statement that he has violated the university's policy on expressions of bias and must be disciplined.

"Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate desecration of the Eucharist," said Catholic League President Bill Donohue.

Read more: http://www.startribune.com/local/25896599.html?location_refer=Homepage:latestNews:4

---

Blog entry in question can be found at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php

[TlalocW]

1. While it could be argued that Myers is getting a little cheeky (for lack of a better term)

Cross burnings and swastikas normally had deaths associated with them. The Catholic Church's religious-cannibalistic ritual never has unless someone choked to death on a wafer.

TlalocW

[msongs]

2. catholic church has been exterminating opposition for nearly 2000 years nt

[LuckyLib]

3. Sexual abuse of children by priests? Meh! Art that rips the host? Outrage!

The Catholic Church, as always, completely missing the boat.

[awoke_in_2003]

5. Make sure you recommend, too

I am surprised that I am the first.

[Dogtown]

9. K&R n/t

[aspergris]

4. As long as it is his OWN blog

Iow, not a university sponsered one, I think he is free to defile Korans (dip them in urine or burn them), do the same with the eucharist, or any other religious symbol.

Again, he will (and that's perfectly fine) receive scorn and outrate, but I don't think the university should take action against an instructor for OFF CAMPUS speech protesting religious symbols.

And of course, people are free to protest. Unlike, for instance, Michael Savage's offensive comments, these are NOT part of his work related duties and thus it's really (imo) none of the university's business. Of course if it was a PRIVATE university, I would feel differently, and the law would be different too, but that's another topic.

Of course, I would want the same right extended to a firefighter, cop, or any other public servant who - on his own time, using his own resources - published an inflammatory blog.

[Sgent]

7. He's tenured

the calls for his dismissal are going nowhere fast.

[WriteDown]

6. Look for the followup article....

describing his beheading. I think he is free to do whatever he wants but I wonder about his safety.

[Dogtown]

11. Unlikely, I think

99% of Muslims are peaceful and productive. Many Xians are also.

The extreme cases of both are vividly violent, but the reach of those is not nearly as far as our masters pretend.

[WriteDown]

27. You are probably right...

but it only takes 1. And I had an "honor killing" practically next door to me. Scary stuff.

edited to add brief thought.

[SpookyCat]

8. I thought the picture was brilliant.

I very much appreciated him including Dawkins under the coffee grounds and banana peel. These are thoughts, ideas and symbols, they are not sacrosanct.

[GirlieQ]

10. Defiled? Really? He just poked a hole in it.

Granted, he might have given the stale cracker god tetanus, but then that's the god's fault for not getting his shots now isn't it?


I also love how his 'desecration' of Dawkin's book is getting shoved aside in the religo-babble.

[Dogtown]

13. Harsh

i like that!

welcome to DU!

:hi:

[hedgehog]

42. The difference is that Dawkin's book is not treated as a sacred object

by anyone. People may agree with the words inside it, but no one considers it a ritual object.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. As long as he didn't piss on Thor's hammer

or kill one of Odin's ravens or something really awful like that, I could give a shit what he does.

[frebrd]

14. K&R n/t

[fla nocount]

15. Prof. Lenny Bruce, I'll take his class. n/t

[struggle4progress]

16. An unfortunate propaganda victory for rightwing anti-evolutionists: The struggle to teach modern

biological theory in American public schools has long been complicated by a handful of very noisy fundamentalists who insist that Darwinism is essentially atheistic and amoral. That fundamentalist claim, of course, has everything to do with rightwing authoritarianism and a certain extreme Biblical literalism -- and nothing whatsoever to do with evolution as a scientific theory

Science, by definition, makes absolutely no philosophical or theological hypotheses in the course of observing the world accurately and attempting to produce accurate and defensible accounts of the observations. Because science makes no philosophical or theological hypotheses, it can practiced regardless of the theological predispositions of the practitioner: whether one is (say) a taoist, buddhist, christian, or atheist is simply irrelevant to the general scheme of scientific investigation; similarly, one could in principle engage in scientific inquiry without regard to one's philosophical predispositions. This independence, from philosophical or theological hypotheses, means that the results of scientific investigation are acceptable to a wide cross-section of the world population

Those who refuse to accept the value of science, often do so because it undermines their know-it-all claims. Such opposition is actually political in nature, insofar as it represents an attempt to consolidate political power: in the US, such opposition is usually conducted by standard rightwing polarization techniques. A common rightwing line is Religious people don't accept evolution. The rightwing line is nonsense: plenty of religious people (including many Catholics) have no difficulty whatsoever with the theory of evolution

Pushing the rightwing line helps the rightwing organize. And that is the material effect of Myers' bigotry

updated 6:12 p.m. CT, Fri., Nov. 18, 2005
VATICAN CITY - The Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States. The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges. "Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science" ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10101394/

In 'Design' vs. Darwinism, Darwin Wins Point in Rome
By IAN FISHER and CORNELIA DEAN
Published: January 19, 2006
ROME, Jan. 18 - The official Vatican newspaper published an article this week labeling as "correct" the recent decision by a judge in Pennsylvania that intelligent design should not be taught as a scientific alternative to evolution. "If the model proposed by Darwin is not considered sufficient, one should search for another," Fiorenzo Facchini, a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Bologna, wrote in the Jan. 16-17 edition of the paper, L'Osservatore Romano. "But it is not correct from a methodological point of view to stray from the field of science while pretending to do science," he wrote, calling intelligent design unscientific. "It only creates confusion between the scientific plane and those that are philosophical or religious" ... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/19/science/sciencespecial2/19evolution.html

[longship]

18. The Vatican has recently demured on this very issue.

No. Not the Vatican's astronomer, but the Pope himself. Apparently the new Pope is a little bit softer on evolution than has been previously reported. Biologists like PZ Myers have reported on this, as has Skeptics Guide to the Universe (a wonderful science blog, BTW).

No, the Pope has not outright endorsed ID. But he has given those who care about science enough pause that his apparent softening on the subject has been heavily reported in the Blogosphere.

Then, there's those wack-a-loons like Bill Donahue... Well... Let's just say that theocrats like Donahue do not like it when their ideologies are challenged.

Skeptics Guide to the Universe

Pharyngula (PZ Myers' blog)

on edit: links fixed

[struggle4progress]

19. Sorry, the bigot PZ Myers doesn't qualify as a Vatican analyst in my book:

Myers merely insults people and stirs up controversy to promote himself

Pope: Creation vs. evolution clash an ‘absurdity’
Benedict XVI also says humans must listen to ‘the voice of the Earth’
MSNBC News Services
updated 2:55 p.m. ET, Wed., July. 25, 2007

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - ...

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”

Benedict also said the human race must listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.

“We all see that today man can destroy the foundation of his existence, his Earth,” he said in a closed door meeting with 400 priests on Tuesday. A full transcript of the two-hour event was issued on Wednesday ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/

"Milestone" conference at Vatican for Darwin anniversary
Published: May 26, 2008

... Three years ago, Cardinal Paul Poupard, the then president of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said Darwin's theory of Evolution and the Old Testament book of Genesis were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were correctly read.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," Cardinal Poupard added, explaining that the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator" ...

Professor Gennaro Auletta, who is head of the Science and Philosophy faculty at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome and the main conference organiser told Edward Pentin of Newsweek: "We hope this will really be an example of how to hold an open discussion without overtones. We simply wish to dialogue between people whose mission is to understand a little more."

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7317

I've now provided links from 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 quoting different Catholics on the subject. I'm not Catholic, and I have my various philosophical disagreements with the Catholics -- but the Church simply isn't opposed to science

[Zhade]

50. BIGOTRY? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Not EVEN close.

He's not discriminating against believers for being believers - he's not even attacking believers at all.

He's fucking around with ridiculous mythological claims. That's not bigotry.

[struggle4progress]

71. Cheerleading for folk who disrupt other people's religious services is a good indicator

and so is encouraging copycat activity

[Zhade]

75. No, you're still wrong. It's still not bigotry.

NT!

[NickB79]

91. How did he disrupt religious services?

Did he nail the communion wafer to the church pulpit DURING communion services?

Did he rip the Qu'ran DURING prayer in a mosque full of people?

[starroute]

17. Swastikas and cross-burnings are both hate speech

Defiling other people's religious symbols may be intended as anything from a childish insult to a mystical warning against the pitfalls of idolatry -- but no matter how it is meant, it is certainly not on the level of the actions of the Nazis or the Klan.

The Catholic League is -- as almost always -- way off base here.

[struggle4progress]

22. Minnesota's cross-burners have traditionally been anti-Catholic extremists

“Mary is 92 years old. How many people among us can bear witness to that time in the 1920s when the KKK organized small town Minnesota men to assemble en masse to discriminate against Catholics and Jews? We need to hear what those eye witnesses have to say.” http://hometownsource.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3245&Itemid=29

By one estimate, there were as many as 10 active Ku Klux Klan chapters in Minneapolis in 1923. Their attacks were broadly focused on nonwhites, socialists, Jews, Catholics, and the new Communist threat ... http://www.mpls.lib.mn.us/history/re2.asp

... most of the Minnesota Klan's wrath was directed at Bolsheviks, bootleggers, prostitutes, home-wreckers, dope dealers, recent immigrants, and especially Catholics, who were rumored to be storing rifles in a Fergus Falls church basement awaiting orders from the pope ... http://www.pelicanrapidschamber.com/historyhappenedhere/ku_klux_klan_organizes_pelikan_r.htm

[Scairp]

44. Who gives a crap about the Catholic League anyway?

Isn't it just this one idiot who sits in from of his computer and sends out stupid missives for any alleged slight against Christianity as a whole and/or Catholics in particular?

[The Croquist]

83. You're right

This guy is just an asshole. He has a right to do what he wants but that doesn't make him a good person.

The Catholic league should organize a mass mooning of him.

[TaffyMoon]

20. If his point was that religion is bad,

he was wrong to limit his selections to islam and catholicism - he should have included the whole gamut of superstition, including judism.

[Zhade]

54. That would have been a LOT of defiling - christianity alone has thousands of sects!

NT!

[bemildred]

21. Goodness, I hope Mr Donohue is not threatening violence. nt

[struggle4progress]

23. Maybe Donohue and Myers could have a contest to see who could blow it out his nose the furthest

[bemildred]

24. If I read what he said right, he's opposed to tolerance.

He thinks people have a right to be intolerant. Very un-Christian.

[MrMonk]

25. deleted

deleted

[ohio2007]

28. Something lost in translation ?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a0e_1217082311

[LeftyMom]

26. And I'm going to defile some saltines by crumbling them over soup in a minute.

So what?

[hedgehog]

29. No one cares whether you crumble saltines over soup. The professor

set out to deliberately antagonize people by damaging objects that are important to them. Evidently respect for other cultures is not required if

A. the other culture is a main stream religion

and/or

B. you can accuse members of said main stream religion of bad behavior, past or present.

[LeftyMom]

30. He stuck a nail through a cracker and put it in the trash.

Nobody sane gives a shit, because it's no different than cutting the crust off for your kid or tossing the bread heel- there's no great moral crime in wasting a few cents worth of bread. It's just bread. It's not special, it's certainly not the flesh of Jesus, it's fucking bread that doesn't even taste good.

The cracker went in the trash with a page out of the Koran and one of The God Delusion. Since PZ and Dawkins are friends, there's a message there about not taking any belief too seriously, but I guess it went over some people's heads.

[struggle4progress]

31. Why would anyone go out of his/her way to obtain something someone else regarded as sacred

in order to make a point of defiling it?

Catholics don't force anyone to repeat Catholic doctrine or to attend Catholic services. Anyone completely free to disbelieve their theological views -- but why make a point of disrespecting something they regard as important?

I doubt if many people would regard as amusing or noteworthy a website dedicated to smashing menorahs and burning yarmulkes. A number of Amerindian ritual objects, once stolen as curiosities, have been returned in recent years, simply as a matter of ordinary human respect, without implying that those who returned them had adopted the religious views the objects represented. Perhaps you wouldn't consider funny a realistic animation depicting mutilation of pets for entertainment, even if no real mutilation actually occurred

Offending people, for the mere pleasure of offending them, is a childish hobby

[LeftyMom]

32. For the backstory, go read his blog.

There's also a link there to a great interview he did on the matter, but I don't feel like digging up a link right now.

Also, there's really no obligation to respect beliefs that are stupid. People have a right to them, but invoking deity doesn't mean the rest of us no longer have a right to point out when they're being dumb.

[struggle4progress]

33. Already know the story, thanks: (1) A jerky kid disrupted some Catholic

services, for unknown but ever-changing reasons -- possible reasons to date (extracted from news stories) seem to include: (A) he wanted to show someone a communion wafer; (B) he was protesting how student fees were spent at his school; (C) he regarded the Catholics devil worshippers; (D) he was concerned that communion involved (i) forced food consumption in violation of anti-hazing rules and (ii) underage drinking; and so on

(2) Rightwing noisemaker Donohue thought he had found a fine fire to kindle here, so he peddled sparks and smoke everywhere he could imagine

(3) Bigot Myers decided to fan the flames further, by deliberately setting out to offend as large a group as possible

I don't know what the kid's problem was. But the problem that Donohue and Myers both have is easily diagnosed: they're pompous self-serving attention-seeking windbags, who try to hide behind mantles of self-righteous

A certain number of posters here have a problem, too: they think that whenever two screeching monkeys hurl feces at one another, one monkey must be right and the other wrong. The loud anti-Catholic prejudice in this thread apparently comes from people who have noted correctly Donohue is a idiot and from that conclude incorrectly that they should support Myers' idiocy

[LeftyMom]

34. Well, your mind is made up, so I'll leave you to talk to yourself.

Have a lovely afternoon anyhow.

[Realityhack]

36. How is Myers bigoted? n/t

[struggle4progress]

39. Cheerleading for folk who disrupt other people's religious services is a good indicator

and so is encouraging copycat activity

[LeftyMom]

49. The kid took his wafer, and went to sit down.

Apparently some priest saw that he hadn't eaten his jesus cracker yet, and tried to physically take it away from him, which is actually assault. The kid didn't create a scene, if anybody did it was the priest.

[struggle4progress]

65. ... The church group says Cook lied .. about being Catholic and came to disrupt their service by ..

accusing Catholics of worshipping the devil during mass ...

UCF Student To Face Ethics Hearing Over Eucharist Controversy
POSTED: 1:11 pm EDT July 16, 2008
UPDATED: 1:13 pm EDT July 16, 2008
http://www.wftv.com/news/16900432/detail.html

Of course, I wasn't there and so witnessed none of the events: all I can do is read and compare a number of news stories, which I have done. That he repeatedly changed his story about what he was doing, adds not credibility to the student's account. Moreover, the university, for example, promptly threw out the student's complaint, so the supposed "assault by a priest" apparently did not occur

[Zhade]

66. Gee, the church that is alleged to have committed assault over a cracker says the guy lied?

Why, they have no vested interest, so of course there's no way THEY could be lying!

[struggle4progress]

69. The assault complaint seems to have been dismissed a week or more ago for lack of evidence,

as were the student's further complaints that Catholic services involved underage drinking and hazing-by-food

[Zhade]

76. "Seems to have" - suuuuure it has.

Riiiight.

[struggle4progress]

78. ... UCF announced .. it .. dismissed the complaint .. filed against the Catholic Campus Ministry ...

Cook had alleged personal abuse, hazing and alcohol-policy violations ... School officials didn't find enough evidence to pursue his complaint ...

UCF Senate acts to impeach student over Mass incident
Luis Zaragoza | Sentinel Staff Writer
July 17, 2008
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/ucf/orl-wafer1708jul17,0,3099956.story

You could have easily found this yourself, if you had any real interest in the actual facts ...

[LeftyMom]

73. Nobody asks if you're Catholic to take communion

You're not supposed to do it unless you're Catholic, have done classes and taking first communion, but if you're not Catholic you might not even know that- most other churches permit anybody to participate in the eucharist.

[struggle4progress]

74. The kid knew Catholics don't have open communion, since his original explanation involved that fact

[LeftyMom]

79. So?

It's a nickel sized bit of bread. Who gives a flying fuck if the wrong person got it? Legitimizing this shit only encourages it.

[struggle4progress]

80. So your #73 is an irrelevant retort to my #65

[LeftyMom]

81. The whole thing is irrelavent.

You're the one getting bent about pastry abuse.

[Realityhack]

87. That does not sound like an accurate portrayal to me.

Cheerleading? Given the facts as know by P.Z. Myers at the time he made his first post (after that you need to take into account the response to that post) how was he doing anything other than responding to a massive over-reaction and targeting of what he saw as innocent behavior?

[Zhade]

57. He's not.

NT!

[Realityhack]

88. Yeah I know. n/t

[Zhade]

56. Your premise is flawed. He's not a bigot just because he disagrees with religion.

If he were attacking *believers* for *being believers*, then THAT would be bigotry.

This simply isn't, no matter how many times you erroneously state that it is.

[struggle4progress]

70. You dishonestly put words in my mouth

[Zhade]

77. No, you dishonestly interpreted his actions as bigotry. They're not.

You continue to be wrong.

[struggle4progress]

37. Meaningful politics is cannot be done by those, who identify as "stupid" or "dumb" everyone with

whom they disagree

[LeftyMom]

38. Of course not. But some ideas are definitely stupid, even if held by otherwise smart people.

The idea that a bread product subjected to a few ritual words magically becomes the flesh of a dead savior, while retaining properties (taste, smell, appearance) indistinguishable from those of an identical but un-pocused bread product IS stupid. I was raised Catholic, and I certainly never encountered anybody in the laity who believed it, it's just that the hierarchy backed themselves into a corner many centuries ago insisting in a real, literal interpretation rather than symbolism, and are obstinate about admitting when they're obviously wrong.

[hedgehog]

41. "I certainly never encountered anybody in the laity who believed it,"

One must assume you never asked very many people.

I have relatives who are members of the United Church of Christ. Their congregation uses the words "this symbolizes the Body of Christ". I assure you, they would be upset if someone took bread from the altar and treated it with disrespect.

[LeftyMom]

46. You'd assume incorrectly.

The funny thing about American Catholics is that they tend to smile and nod at the stupider pronouncements out of the Vatican in much the same way that one would smile and nod at the senile old aunt who assures you she had an affair with Elvis, and he's coming to get her from the home next tuesday so they can get married. You love her even if she believes crazy things, and sometimes it's easier not to argue with her, but loving her doesn't mean you have to share her belief that Elvis is busting her out of the home any day now.

[hedgehog]

51. Hey - ***I'm*** the one who had a fit when the other instructor brought a

book to class purporting to "prove" that the Host is the Body of Christ because it started to bleed. I recognized that as an updated variation of the blood libel from the Middle Ages. (If the Host was going to bleed, someone had to desecrate it, so who better to accuse than the local Jews? Hey everybody, let's have a Program!) )


Even so, I recognize the Consecrated Host as the Body of Christ. Get 10 people together in a room who say that, and force them to explain it without using a catechism and you'll probably get 10 different explanations as to what that means. That's OK.

[BreweryYardRat]

82. "Pogrom," not "program."

Sorry, but the difference is signifiant enough for me to call you on it.

[hedgehog]

85. Spelling error. I was subtly acknowledging that even Catholics have

desecrated the Eucharist over the years. Using an imaginary incident of desecration as an excuse for murder and rape is the ultimate desecration, IMO. Of course, I'm being foolish expecting people to actually think about anything written in this thread.

[Zhade]

58. Your own words are contradictory -- first you suggest people believe it...

...then you acknowledge that it's merely a symbol.

[hedgehog]

86. No, I was not calling the Eucharist "just a symbol"

I have problems with people applying an overly literal, simplistic interpretation to the Eucharist by describing miracles in which the Host has bled or denying that it is anything special because the Host did not bleed. The Eucharist is more than that. It is what it is, and I think that attempting to describe it with words runs up against the same limitations that cause some people to use G-d instead of spelling out the word.

I was pointing out that some Christian denominations refer to Communion as a symbol in order to make the point that even they would be offended by this activity.

[Zhade]

55. Exactly. There is NO requirement that ridiculous unproven mythological horseshit be respected.

I don't respect the bible any more than I respect Mein Kampf - both extol horrendous viewpoints.

[hedgehog]

45. Mentioning the return of sacred objects to Amerindians is an

excellent point. If something is important to you, for whatever reason, it is only basic respect for you by me to treat that object, time or place with respect.

[hedgehog]

40. Why didn't he get hold of a saltine and stick a nail though it?

For that matter, why not get hold of an animal cracker and stick a nail through that? Regardless of whether or not you believe a consecrated Host is the Body and Blood of Christ, the only reason to put a nail through it is to offend someone who does believe that or who has a modicum of respect for those who do. Regardless of whether or not a consecrated Host is any different in any way than a saltine, the objective of this activity was to attack a paticular group of people.

[LeftyMom]

47. Because nobody demands respect for a delusion involving saltines.

:shrug:

[Fox Mulder]

64. Amen to that.

Thank you LM.

[Realityhack]

35. Not quite...

actually it started with the student at another school. That changes the context quite a bit.

[meow2u3]

43. I'm tempted to choke that instructor, but God didn't die and leave me in charge

I'd rather let God handle this anti-religious crank. That's his job, not mine.

[Zhade]

60. Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the danger of delusional unfounded beliefs RIGHT HERE?

I hear al Qaeda is looking for those willing to do violence in the name of religion - you should hook up with them.

[Fox Mulder]

62. You're just as delusional as those religious whackjobs.

[LeftyMom]

89. Feel that Christian love, folks.

Is it any wonder why I left The Church? :eyes:

[Zhade]

48. PS rules -- note he only did this AFTER the guy started receiving death threats.

NT!

[Zhade]

59. Shit, I meant to type PZ. Dumb fingers!

NT!

[hedgehog]

52. For his next amazing feat, he's going to go to India and eat a hamburger

at a Hindu temple.


After all, cows aren't really sacred, right?


On the way home, he's going to stop off at a Zen monastery and build lewd sand castles in the meditation gardens!

[hedgehog]

53. If you really believe that there is nothing wrong with this, then explain

why this picture upsets you:

[Bill McBlueState]

61. You're comparing Holocaust victims to a cracker?

Sick.

[Zhade]

67. Some people really can't stand that others aren't required to venerate their delusion.

It throws their perspective all out of whack.

[hedgehog]

84. #1. I was comparing the lack of respect .

#2. No one is being forced to venerate anything.

#3. There is a difference between not venerating something and deliberately going out of your way to desecrate something.

[Fox Mulder]

63. I support PZ 100%.

[JI7]

68. not really comparable to blacks and cross burning and jews and swastikas

even if one may think it's offensive , wrong, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. I've actually met PZ Meyers

and my conclusion is that he and the Catholic League deserve each other.

[rug]

90. I'd be more impressed if he shit on a flag outside the RNC in five weeks.

This is just empty bravado.

[petronius]

92. Myers sounds like an incredible prick - such a childish act wrapped up in

high-flying rhetoric...

:puke:

[marshall]

93. Give the man an NEH stipend!

Seriously, aren't they paying artists to display this kind of thing in galleries in Manhattan?