California bans restaurants from using trans fats

[onehandle]

Source: AP

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - California on Friday became the first state to ban trans fats from restaurant food, following several cities and major fast-food chains in erasing the notorious artery-clogger from menus.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed legislation that will ban restaurants and other retail food establishments from using oil, margarine and shortening containing trans fats.

In a statement, Schwarzenegger noted that consuming trans fat is linked to coronary heart disease.

"Today we are taking a strong step toward creating a healthier future for California," he said.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080726/ap_on_he_me/california_trans_fats

[ozymandius]

1. I wonder if this will eventually apply to ALL foods in California.

If you go to a major discount chain, like Family Dollar, and look at the ingredients on so many of the so-called foods, you'll notice that these are chock full of trans-fats. It's the crappy food offered to poor people.

[LostinVA]

2. Great news -- trans fat is completely unnecessary as a food ingredient

It's just a convenience to manufacturers.

Although I shudder to write it: good for Arnie for signing this without squawking about it.

[WriteDown]

4. Ridiculous....

Things like margerine have a higher melting point than butter and that is why they are required for many recipes. It is not just for convenience. I also prefer coolwhip over whipped cream.

[AndyTiedye]

6. How Did They Make Those Recipes Before Trans-Fats Were Invented?

[WriteDown]

7. A lot they didn't...

You can't make a true buffalo wing without margarine. Also, you can't make shortening cookies without...shortening. Don't forget margarine and its variants have been around for over 100 years. It has a lot of advantages when cooking.

[pitohui]

12. being able to poison yourself and your kids is not an advantage

when i think of all the margarine i was fed because liars promoted this fake fat as healthier than butter (and it was also cheaper) i could just weep

there was no heart disease, on either side of my family, until my parents' generation, and yet both of my parents have had to have multiple bypass surgery

is margarine/trans fat part of the issue? almost certainly since you are talking about non smokers who worked out every day for an hour for almost their entire adult lives

people thought they were taking care of themselves and they were being poisoned

i don't think being able to eat a "true" buffalo wing is a pimple on the butt of what's important when you think of what's involved with open heart surgery

margarine is poison, it has no place in the human diet, period, sorry if that interferes with somebody's ability to make cheap garbage like shortening cookies

[WriteDown]

22. You couldn't be more wrong.....

Check out the mayo clinic site. Margarine is still healthier than butter.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/butter-vs-margarine/AN00835

Also, if your parents both had multiple bypasses, it is likely genetic. Something I am intimately familiar with. By the way, my best friends father just had his 4th bypass. He is a hindu and a strict vegetarian.


edited for spelling

[KansDem]

79. Couldn't agree more...

when i think of all the <insert corporate crap here> i was fed because liars promoted this <insert corporate crap here> as healthier than <insert "other" here> (and it was also cheaper) i could just weep

As a child of the 1950s, my mom fed me what the TeeVee ads told us was "good," thinking it was healthy and wholesome. Now I have health problems brought on by eating this f*cking crap. We did not have "choice" in this country, regardless of what the corporatists said. We could only choose what the corporations wanted us to choose...

"America" and "free choice" is about as opposite as one could get...

[LostinVA]

19. Why the hell would somebody use margarine to make Buffalo Wings?

Real shortbread is make with butter. It has nothing to do with shortening. It's called shortbread, because it doesn't rise. Go pull up some real recipes. Your post would make many Scottish people have a heart attack. Vegetable shortening is crisco and the other shortening is lard. Neither have transfats.

[WriteDown]

23. Not shortbread!

Shortening cookies as in cookies made with shortening. The kind that don't spread into a loose puddle. If you are not going to read the actual posts, don't bother to respond. Shortening doesn't have trans fat??? Wrong yet again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortening

You've been wrong twice now. Care to try again?


PS I love to fry in shortening. Nothing quite like it and you can fry at high temps.

[LostinVA]

38. Shortbread cookies are not made with butter, which doesn't have transfats

You've quoted a wiki article, which any idiot can edit to say anything they want.

We edit wiki articles on DU all the time solely to make jabs at our beloved Midlodemocrat.

[WriteDown]

56. Do you just refuse to actually read the post?

I made no mention of shortbread cookies. I'll make it simple for you. If you've ever been to a diner in NYC and had one of those giant chocolate chip cookies they keep in the case, then you've had a shortening cookie. Gives it that one of a kind texture. Nothing quite like it. Who edits an article on shortening? Why don't you actually try to seek out some knowledge and do a little research. You can learn all about it here:

http://www.recipezaar.com/library/getentry.zsp?id=430

http://www.bigoven.com/whatis.aspx?id=Shortening

[kestrel91316]

153. Before shortening existed, cookies like that were made with lard.

It's what I use now. It's superior.

[WriteDown]

Poses other problems....

spoilage. Those who follow Islam, etc.

[kestrel91316]

164. Funny, I don't see how margarine and shortening are better at retarding the growth of

mold than lard and butter...........

Where did you take your food microbiology course?

[WriteDown]

170. huh?

Mold is not the problem. It is going rancid that is the problem.

Shortening shelf life:
http://www.ochef.com/1052.htm

Interesting wikipedia article on lard, but I would take it with a grain of salt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard

[kestrel91316]

172. Who keeps homemade cookies around long enough to worry about the

fats in them going rancid?????? Oy, vey.

BEFORE I use my lard, it lives in the fridge or freezer, lol.

Do you seriously want to eat something that no self-respecting microbe would touch? On even know how to digest??

On edit: the lard I buy lists NO trans fats on its label, which I take at face value. I have heard that some lard is treated so as to result in hydrogenation. That's not REAL lard, IMHO.

[kestrel91316]

165. I don't think the cookies we're talking about are traditional

Middle Eastern islamic fare. So it's moot. If they want trans fats, they can eat them. Just don't try to foist those NON-FOODS on an unsuspecting public.

[Codeine]

26. Crisco has transfats.

Just low enough amounts (less than 500mg per serving) that they can make a No Transfats claim on the label.

[kestrel91316]

154. They must have reformulated Crisco, lol. It used to be PURE

trans fats, IIRC, before they required labelling for trans fats.

[Codeine]

175. They did.

Just a bit over a year ago. Now the content is just barely enough to classify as "Zero per serving."

[WriteDown]

28. Also....

some people prefer the taste of margarine. If you've ever had a hot wing or a buffalo wing then there is a 99% chance that it was coated in a mixture of margarine and hot sauce.

[merwin]

51. And it wouldn't taste as good with butter?

I have a hard time believing that.

[Codeine]

54. Not if you don't like butter it won't. nt

[LostinVA]

55. It would taste better

[susanna]

99. Exactly. n/t

[WriteDown]

57. So I suppose...

you just tell people that don't like redmeat or pork that their tastebuds are just wrong, hahaha.

[merwin]

84. Slightly different than butter vs margarine.

Red meat and pork would be primary ingredients. Margarine is almost never a primary ingredient, and can be fairly easily substituted for something healthier without much (if any) difference in taste. Might take a little bit of experimenting, but nothing crazy.

[WriteDown]

93. Okay.....

What about bacon, heavy cream, sour cream, eggs, etc. All of those have been labeled bringers or death over the year.

[susanna]

96. Actually, Crisco IS a transfat. n/t

[LostinVA]

111. It's been reformulated, because of transfat bans, actually

I'm not sure if they sell that version in all parts of the country, though.

[susanna]

122. That is interesting.

I'll have to check it out. Not that it will likely make its way back into my kitchen after all the work figuring out substitutes. Thanks for the info! :-)

[kestrel91316]

155. It got reformulated because of the labelling laws. They knew sales

would drop to ZERO if they kept the trans fats in there and people knew.

[Codeine]

176. It's everywhere now. nt

[Squatch]

110. Incorrect:

Crisco:

SOYBEAN OIL, FULLY HYDROGENATED COTTONSEED OIL, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED COTTONSEED AND SOYBEAN OILS, MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS).

[kestrel91316]

152. Wrong: Crisco IS pure transfats. Lard is NOT shortening.

Lard has not transfats.

The best book on "real" food, what is, what isn't, is Michael Pollan's "In Defense Of Food". He says: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. And then he elaborates.

[susanna]

97. No, it doesn't "have a lot of advantages when cooking."

Margarine is a shortcut/over-produced commodity invented by chemists to ensure "shelf-stable" ingredients instead of actually dealing with real fats.

It became super-popular due to WWII and later the demonization of fats in general. Look it up.

On edit: inflammatory language removed.

[WriteDown]

113. So higher melting points and smoke points aren't an advantage?

Here's a little test for ya. Try frying a chicken in butter. Let me know how it goes.

[susanna]

121. I use non-TF oils for frying chicken.

You really are obstinate, aren't you?

[WriteDown]

123. Like what?

What are these oils? And just to be clear. I am talking about deep frying and not pan frying.

[susanna]

131. Peanut oil, generally. Now will you go away? n/t

[WriteDown]

135. Love peanut oil....

especially for french fries. Also love coconut oil. Let us not forget that both were roundly demonized over the last couple of decades.

[susanna]

138. Coconut oil is wonderful for stir fries.

Finally we agree on something!

[WriteDown]

139. I knew we would :)

also, nothing beats movie theater popcorc popped in coconut oil.

[susanna]

140. I agree with you on that, too! LOL. :-)

[WriteDown]

147. Here is my one point....

I have had very high cholesterol for many years. I was told repeatedly over those years to never eat any coconut, peanut, and palm oil (I remember there was even a movement to switch all movie theater popcorn to a butter topping rather than the coconut oil topping still used.) Now these are considered the healthy alternatives. Same goes for lard. I love these ingredients, but use them in addition to things like crico, margerine, etc, depending on the application.

[susanna]

149. Your point was taken.

My family has a history of heart problems. My cholesterol and other indicators were not great when I was using the TF oils (recommended by doctor and the AHA), which is one of the reasons I went back to natural fats. Surprisingly or not, all of my indicators have since improved markedly.

My point is that I don't eat lard, butter, or any fat in excess; I eat them sparingly, so I use the "real" thing. That's all I was getting at. I am all for people using what they want, but I should be afforded the same courtesy. We all have opinions on this issue (obviously!).

As for bans, I would rather see restaurants voluntarily remove trans-fats where possible. I know that for some applications it would be a hardship. That said, as a consumer, I would frequent an establishment that took the time to figure out an alternative.

[WriteDown]

150. I am more for...

Mandatory labeling and then let the people decide rather than have the govt mandates ingredients. Unfortunately, I have to take several prescriptions to keep my cholesterol in check. My diet has zero effect on it. Now some say the meds are worse than the cholesterol Have to just take my chances I suppose.

[susanna]

159. I could agree with better labeling. Probably the best solution, IMHO.

Because people can then make educated choices.

People are different, which is one thing that frustrates me with advising everyone to change their diets; I understand statistically it is the only way to do it, but your health is in the end yours, and you need to figure out what works and what doesn't for you. As for me, shortly after removing trans-fats, I also dropped about 90% of processed foods from my shelves. I use whole foods almost exclusively now, unless I get a craving for some nasty macaroni and cheese in a box (it happens). Who knows which of these actions (maybe both) changed my health for the better?

I've enjoyed the conversation with you (well the latter half anyway LOL). :-)

[WriteDown]

162. Me too....

I enjoy a good debate and hope you didn't misconstrue it as animosity. One other weakness that I have is velveeta :). Especially mixed with rotel. I'm laughing about the boxed macaroni though.

[susanna]

173. It's alright...food really can get peoples hackles up, huh?!

Rotel and velveeta is all kinds of awesome. I add in extra pickled jalapeno juice and stuff myself with it on the rare occasions I do make it (potlucks, etc.)

The funniest part about the boxed macaroni is that I never ate it growing up; mom and dad were fabulous cooks and I'd always eaten it homemade. I went over a girlfriend's house at around 10 years old and they made me some of the boxed kind. I remember being positively mystified that you could make mac & cheese with neon-orange powder, pasta, milk and butter. I think it seduced me by the sheer zaniness of it. It's still disgusting, but once in a great while I succumb. :-)

[kestrel91316]

157. Popcorn popped in lard is the best.

[susanna]

129. self-deleted; responded to wrong post n/t

[Runcible Spoon]

134. you can clarify butter (ghee) to get higher smoke points.

staple in Indian cooking; many tasty things fried that way. Transfats, if they can be avoided, should be.

[kestrel91316]

156. Which shorteniing manufacturer/distributor did you say you worked for?

[heliarc]

124. Shortening cookies are just variants of lard cookies

Use Lard then.

[kestrel91316]

151. Shortening was invented as a cheap substitute for lard.

I use lard in all my baking that calls for shortening. It is far superior, and unlike shortening, it is actually FOOD.

Do this little test: Put a dab of shortening in the palm of one hand, and a dab of lard in the other. Let them get nice and warm, and then tell me which one you want running in your veins (hint: it's the one that RUNS).

[bitchkitty]

178. Come ON - who would prefer

"shortening cookies" over a sublime Viennese butter crescent?

There is no recipe containing margarine that can't be made better with butter. For those who are concerned with cholesterol, you can mix butter and olive oil half and half, chill it until it's solid and voila - a delicious spread that is FAR LESS HARMFUL than the artificial god-knows-what they call margarine.

I don't have a problem with giving credit where it's due - kudos to Ahnold for this one. I'll give him this one.

edited for clarity

[Spouting Horn]

80. Trans fats have been around

for about 100 years.

[susanna]

98. And?

Butter has been around a lot longer. Wonder which one is more beneficial? Please, let me know if trans fats are healthy. Studies would be helpful.

[susanna]

100. And when did we begin having health issues...

...no one had ever seen before? Just curious.

[LeftyMom]

16. There's transfat free margarine. And a product similar to cool whip.

The grocery store where I do most of my shopping does not sell anything containing transfats as a policy, and I know they have several varieties of margarine and at least one frozen whipped topping.

[LostinVA]

32. I can't believe there is now a margarine flamewar

Being led by someone who doesn't know how to make real shortbread.

[Lorien]

42. Proving that there is NO TOPIC that is safe from flames on DU! n/t

[LostinVA]

44. Today, I also learned that some people fry their chicken in margarine

Thereby, coming full circle in the world of DU flamewars.

[HughBeaumont]

119. Frying chicken in margarine just SOUNDS bad.

:puke:

[susanna]

101. LOL. I'm with you. That's all kinds of sad/funny. nt

[LostinVA]

18. Eat all the fake food you want at home

But there is no reason to cook with transfats. Real cooks NEVER cook with margarine. They use butter or real oil. That's it.

[pipoman]

30. Utter nonsense (no pun intended)

Real cooks NEVER cook with margarine.

I am a professional cook. I rarely use margarine. I have two pastry chefs who work for me, one is 76 the other 74, they have been baking together for 50+ years. They use a lot of margarine to make some of the most wonderful pastries imaginable. And no, butter nor oil would substitute with the same results. What is your specialized knowledge which labels them not "real cooks"?

[LostinVA]

33. The advantage to using margarine is it's cheaper

That's the only reason to use margarine over butter in a restaurant.

And, what proof do I have that you're really a cook? People blatantly lie about their credentials all over the place on the internet.

[pipoman]

34. Well, I've gone waaaay out of my way to fool you, huh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=236&topic_id=41536

Again, I suggest you are not much into baking. The properties of margarine and butter are very different in pastry making.

[LostinVA]

36. I just fell down the rabbit hole, Sandra Lee

[pipoman]

35. Another idea

pick a chocolate chip cookie, sugar cookie or any other cookie recipe. Make one batch with margarine and one with butter. If you like crunchy cookies you will like the butter cookies, if you like softer cookies you will likely prefer the margarine cookies. The point isn't about preferences in the finished product, its about the difference in the two and a demonstration that butter and margarine react entirely different in baking.

[susanna]

104. And - if you're a thinking cook,

you may figure out a way to make what you want happen, happen. But if you're a recipe slave, you're absolutely right.

About two months ago, I made an all-butter choc-chip cookie that was soft for five days. Granted, it's not soft for a decade, but in my experience, most people eat them rather quickly.

Which is healthier?

[WriteDown]

126. So you made...

Cookies that were more unhealthy?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/butter-vs-margarine/AN00835

[susanna]

136. That article itself says...

That many margarines are more unhealthy than butter. Not sure why you're splashing it around; it really doesn't help your case all that much.

on edit: too much info

[pipoman]

177. If there were an easy answer

there would be no need for this thread or discussion. There are chefs, cooks, and scientists working on this as we speak and none have come up with a reasonable, marketable solution. The CA law was written with the knowledge that there isn't a good answer, that is why it is 2-3 years before it becomes effective. Cookies can be softer using butter if the flour to butter ratio is increased but the result is a more chewy or under baked cookie.

[WriteDown]

74. Finally, a pro

I am a humble amateur at best, but its nice to see a post from someone who cooks for a career.

[susanna]

102. They are real cooks, but consider this:

I have found workarounds to not only replace margarine, but make the product more lucrative and tasty while doing so.

Unfortunately, by your own post regaling your pastry cooks' ages, you confirm that they were likely indoctrinated into the trans-fat lie; in my personal opinion, it's not their fault at all. That's the saddest thing. Back in the day, pie crusts were butter or lard, not margarine, and I'm sure your own pastry chefs would acknowledge that. Ask them sometime.

End game: trans-fats are NOT irreplaceable. More convenient? Assuredly. But I agree with LostinVA; long-time cooks should tell you to suck it up and get back to basics, IMHO.

on edit: clarity

[pipoman]

109. They do use lard in their crusts

and in honesty I like the idea of being transfat free (or more honestly reduced transfat as there will always be some transfat in many things) as a marketing tool. I recently changed the fry oil to canola. My biggest hangup is in cookies and quick breads. I like the texture of margarine cookies and quick breads better. If you have suggestions for duplicating this texture without use of margarine and without exceeding the cost of butter (twice the price of margarine, which I am willing to accept), I am all ears (or eyes as it were).

These two ladies are really beautiful people with an amazing history. They began baking in a restaurant together some 50 years ago which was around 400 miles from here, they then moved to another town and worked in the same restaurant, then around 6 years ago they moved to our little retirement community. They are so fun to watch as they know the other's every move, they work in concert and their love for each other is apparent even as they bicker.

Thanks.

[susanna]

118. My solutions would not be cost-effective, so there goes that.

You can find shortening alternatives at natural food stores that, combined in specific ratios with butter for pastries (different for each application), deliver a similar texture to TF shortening-based baked goods. I've experimented over the years, specifically with biscuits and pie crusts, and have found acceptable versions for my own taste. I really think that people can use what they like, all things considered. I just have a point of view on it and decided to share.

I also find it interesting that this thread caused such an uproar. I am honestly surprised that companies and restaurants are still actually using margarine after recent studies that have pretty much concluded that there is simply no "safe" recommended level for trans-fats. I'll have to find the main study that came to that conclusion, but essentially the stuff is not good and the medical community is beginning to issue (albeit late) warnings about their use. I figured most restaurants would be trying to adjust before someone adjusts for them, but I guess not.

And I love your story about the pie baking ladies; they sound like my late grandmother and her friend. My gma retired to Florida with a junior-high level education and found a job at Publix supermarket way back when. She was their top pie baker for a time and their other pie "lady" was a dear friend with a similar background. They worked similarly to your description. Not surprisingly, before health warnings became commonplace, they did use Crisco. So I understand why it is used. I just chose a different route based on my own research.

Nice talking with you.

[WriteDown]

127. You summed it up here....

"...have found acceptable versions for my own taste." No problem with that whatsoever. My problem lies in telling people what is "better."

[susanna]

130. Opinions, my friend, opinions.

You certainly have enough. Quit your whining about mine.

on edit: replacement word

[pipoman]

143. I admittedly

don't respond well to blanket statements of fact which I know to be fiction. If someone frames their opinion or wish as that and not irrefutable fact I have no problem with and enjoy civil discourse. Again thanks.

[susanna]

181. Thank you too!

I didn't see this earlier. I don't decry anyone's use of an ingredient that works for them. I just point out I investigated alternatives and am pleased enough to go that route. I said in other posts that my big thing is labeling. I have no problem with using TFs, just let me know you are and I can make an educated decision about whether to eat it.

So I was never trying to say "do it this way," I was trying to say we all have the ways we find most reasonable. :-)

[kestrel91316]

158. I modified my grandmother's shortening and margarine pie crust

years ago to contain only lard and butter, and have NEVER looked back.

Trans fats have been banned from my kitchen for YEARS. Interestingly, my lipid profile astonishes my doctor.

Eat(real) food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

[susanna]

182. kestrel91316...

Seriously, after I removed TF oils from my diet (along with a switch to whole foods), the following (paraphrased, but close) exchange came up between me and doc (who I hadn't told of my treason in using real fats):

DOC: "Your cholesterol results have seriously improved! You must be eating low fat, using margarine, no butter, low fat products, pasta - that's great news."
ME: "Actually, doc, I switched to butter. Don't use a lot but I'm glad my profiles have improved. And I only eat whole foods, including meats - not to many refined flour products now, either."
DOC: "You need to cut out salt, butter, and anything else that is bad for you, including meats."
ME: "Doc, when I did what you asked everything went sky high. Now they're good. It's been six months." (That was 18 months ago; all systems still good.)
DOC: "Don't blame me if your arteries clog or you have a recurrence of your borderline high blood pressure."
ME: "Don't worry, I won't."

Literally, that was about the scope of our conversation. Saaaaad. :-(

on edit: clarity

[WriteDown]

114. Can't believe you actually are singing the praises...

Of lard. Probably one of the most demonized cooking ingredients in the last 50 years. I remember there were even video games that made fun of lard and its "unhealthy" qualities. I guess it now joins the rank of the new "healthy" egg.

[susanna]

116. Of course eating lard constantly is probably not advisable.

But it is a more natural fat source. And it tastes better, period. The flakiness of the crust or biscuit crumb dominates other considerations for me. The demonization of lard worked out profit-wise - big time - for corporations. Think on that.

I don't care what you think about it, personally. I think the fat police need their licenses revoked because trans-fats are not any better for you. I figure if you're going to eat something "bad", might as well eat something "bad" that comes from another mammal instead of a laboratory. Your body has a better chance of recognizing and/or utilizing it.

[WriteDown]

117. How did the corporations make their money off...

demonizing the egg. Guess Egg Beaters must've really cleaned up during that time. I'm pretty sure it was the "food police" and not the corporations that demonized lard. Or now maybe it is the lard corporations that are cleaning up, haha. Tran fats are natural. I guess you don't use any salted or sweetened butter then since they are additives. And no calcium fortified anything, etc, etc, etc.

[susanna]

120. I think the egg police are stupid, too.

I think the vast majority of nutrition police in this country have demonized real food and yes, it has enriched corporations who like to process their food out of most of its valuable nutrients. I use unsalted, unsweetened butter for my cooking. My butter is made from cream and that's it.

I'll agree to disagree with you on 99.9% of your posts on this thread, and with that I'm actually being unusually optimistic in thinking that there is even .1% of your content that I could agree with. Go bother someone else.

[WriteDown]

125. I notice that no one wants to address...

the mayo clinic

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/butter-vs-margarine/AN00835

[susanna]

128. Answer what?

It says pretty much what I already know; that said, I'm not going to sit with a calculator at my grocery store, thanks. Nor do I really give a shit. My research is done and decision is made. Let it go and move on with your life...it will be good for you!

on edit: spelling

[WriteDown]

132. Ahh...

The closed mind. Glad to know that there is no room for debate with you, haha.

[susanna]

133. You're not debating. n/t

[LostinVA]

179. This thread is filled with people who are clearly here just to fight

They could just as easily be arguing for banning transfats. The issue is important. Fighting on the internet is what's important.

Hell, I even had a lovely primary war thread stalker show up to me snarky about me.

[susanna]

183. Oh, LostinVA...how true.

this was a stimulating thread, to be sure. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. What people choose to believe about food at this point in history could fill volumes. We've been inundated by good/bad/indifferent science for years, and everyone has an opinion.

P.S. Sorry I didn't see this until now, I've been busier than usual. :-)

[merwin]

50. Somehow I think that making a buffalo wing with butter isn't the end of the world.

Since there's no concrete evidence that the guy who made up the buffalo wing was actually the first person to do it, at least according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Wings

I've never heard anyone insist that buffalo wings be made with margarine. For all we know, the guy who made it up thought margarine was healthier and that's what they used it.

[Gormy Cuss]

59. Recipes are formulas.

They can and will be reformulated to use products without the partially hydrogenated oils. As noted downthread, Crisco has already been reformulated to meet the zero trans fat standard and no one would buy it if it didn't work in recipes designed for the old Crisco. I would wager that the Cool Whip food scientists are hard at work trying to reformulate that product.

There are also other solid fats and oils suitable for frying purposes on the market. It's really not much of a loss.

[LostinVA]

64. Didn't you hear?

Real pastry chefs can't cook with butter. Real pastries never contain butter. Pastries can only be made with transfat. And, don't get me started on how this will cause the downfall of the Buffalo Wing industry.

:sarcasm:

[Gormy Cuss]

75. Transfats occur naturally in food

therefore the more transfats we eat, the better.



:eyes:

[LostinVA]

77. And since they make Twinkies last a 100 years, they've prevented outbreaks of disease

Why if we ate more transfats, we'd never get sick!

[Gormy Cuss]

78. Nice post, Dan White.

The Twinkies defense is so 1970s.

[susanna]

105. Yes, they do.

But you don't have to OD on them with margarine and the like, right?

[pipoman]

81. I suppose you can pretend

that anyone in this thread said anything resembling what you wrote, but those with reading comprehension will know you have none...or is it that you are unable and unwilling to admit that margarine is not butter and butter is not margarine? Yes I know "you can't fool mother nature", if it tastes like chicken it is chicken, right?

Now for those who didn't read the above exchange, butter and margarine are two completely different products which produce two completely different results when baking. If the desired outcome of your pastries is achieved through the use of butter, use butter...if the desired outcome is achieved by using margarine then butter will NOT produce the same results...simple.

[LostinVA]

87. It's called a sense of humor -- you can try to pretend you have one

[susanna]

103. LostinVA - you're awesome. n/t

[susanna]

95. Are you serious?

Cooks all over the world would disagree.

Transfats are not REQUIRED for any recipe. I'm kind of shocked that someone would say this.

Please detail your reasoning, and give examples - I think you are on the hook to document such a sweeping statement.

[gblady]

3. wonderful.....

now ban them globally...

[ChazII]

10. I am not sure

if you are serious or joking. If you're serious, what gives us the right to tell other another country how to eat? If you are joking or being sarcastic I apologize for poor comprehension skills.

[index555]

5. is transfat the sole culprit here?

Or is it the video-game playing, TV watching, internet-posting, couch/chair potato lifestyle that is just as much to blame?

While nobody will argue that this stuff is good for you, is it really necessary to regulate what every single person eats "for their own good"?

[ChazII]

9. Yup. It is getting to the point

where I almost agee with C.S. Lewis' quote:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

-- C. S. Lewis

I am sure that somewhere there people are patting themselves on the back and sleeping soundly because they have saved 'us' from transfats with their regulation.

[Snarkturian Clone]

52. I hear ya on that.

Unfortunately, there are many MANY Duers who are all about fascism, as long as it comes from a leftist source. There's a whole 'nother contingent of Nutrition-snob DUers who love laws like this as well...

On these threads the two groups get together and shout down anyone who questions the creation of laws for people who can't take care of themselves, like this one.

[ChazII]

62. Thanks.

It is comforting to know that someone else at DU understands.

[pitohui]

13. it is necessary to regulate what goes into restaurant food because it isn't under our control

there was no video games in my childhood or in my parent's childhood, no internet posting, no color teevee in my home or many lower middle class homes until i myself was about 11 or 12, so if you think these things are the cause of the current epidemic of heart disease and diabetes among older people (esp. my parents pre-baby boom generation) then i think you don't know much about human history and the rapid growth of technology over our lifetimes

teevee, video games, and internet are not the cause for the need for emergency bypass surgery among older people, that's just silly

my parents are slim non smokers who exercised daily for decades

everything else you do is a waste of time if the air and food is polluted with crap, margarine is a chemical that has no place in the human diet

it is necessary to regulate what restaurants serve because otherwise most of them will serve the cheapest garbage, with price being the only consideration

margarine and other fake crap is MUCH cheaper than butter, olive oil, and other safe healthy fats

this regulation is WAY overdue

the public can and should demand SAFE food

fake crap like margarine should not allowed to be served in any public place, not just california

what you want to do in your home is your business, but when you cook for the public, the food should be SAFE, seems pretty basic to me

[exothermic]

21. I guess it never occurred to them to require restaurants to NOTIFY customers

if they're using it. No, people are too fucking stupid to manage their own lives.
:grr:

[petronius]

168. This would be my preference - clearly available nutritional info across the board,

and let consumers manage their own diets.

Personally, I try to avoid things like transfats, HFCS, etc., but I will occasionally indulge (in moderation) in things that are unhealthy, and I have no problem with such items being available...

[WriteDown]

24. I guess you were on the front lines....

trying to ban eggs from all restaurants a few decades ago. :sarcasm: I remember when the cholesterol from eggs was going to kill us.

[Psephos]

49. Remember how fats in general would be the death of us all?

The government was promoting carbs as the cornerstone of the American diet as recently as the Clinton years.

I remember the "Heart Healthy" labels from the American Heart Association on the packages of low-fat goods in the store. Lol. Usually on a box of something that was all carbs...BUT NO FAT! And of course, it's the superabundance of carbs that leads to metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, outright diabetes, and heart and vascular disease. Not to mention obesity. Try peddling that as recently as the year 2000 - you'd be run out of town on a rail by the health busybodies and the "concerned" crowd.

How many tens or hundreds of thousands have died because the effin' science was wrong? But no, that could *never* happen again.

So, let's see here, 1990: no nuts, no oils, no peanut butter, for GOD'S SAKE NO LARD, no butter, no meat except desiccated chicken breasts and nonfatty fish, no wine, no cheese, cut back on milk, etc. etc., but keep stuffing down that cereal, pasta, bread, and all the fruit you want - the sweeter the better. Be sure to take megadoses of vitamin E and C. Every "health-conscious" office snacker would pick up a muffin on the way to work (usually rendered completely moral by the addition of oat bran to all that greasy dough).

2008: eat those nuts, use olive or canola oil liberally, put some peanut butter on that apple, nothing wrong with a little leaf lard, dairy a-go-go, salmon by the pound, drink red wine and coffee and low-fat dairy to live longer and keep your arteries clear. Take an aspirin, but lay off the E and quit wasting your cash on C. Maybe you don't need so many of those sugary sweet fruits, either.

Trans-fats are nothing except the latest tool for authoritarians to have a reason to exercise their "moral" duty and stick it to people who aren't like them. By usurping decision-making capability from others, authoritarians create dependencies upon them. And they like that, a lot.

I fully support disclosure of ingredients and general availability of information about what's in the food people buy. I fully condemn the assault upon personal liberties and personal responsibilities.

[pipoman]

31. You do realize that life expectancies have steadily increased

throughout the entire 20th century, more so than any other century in the history of humankind, and the century which introduced margarine to the food chain?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

[LostinVA]

37. Correlation does not equal causation -- I suggest you look that up

I think the increased life expectancy has more to do with better health care, dental care, etc than your "miracle" margarine.

There are zero health benefits to margarine, and there certainly aren't any taste benefits.

[Codeine]

39. Health benefits aside

there are taste benefits indeed, if you happen to prefer the flavor of marg to butter, as I do.

[pipoman]

40. No miracle

and I am not that partial to margarine personally. Attribution of illness in a 60, 70, 80 year old person to one cooking ingredient without regard for the fact that that same person has doubled the life expectancy given them at birth is a very simplistic approach and is no less silly than IF I had actually made the claim that margarine was responsible for increased life expectancy. If the person I am responding to isn't eating margarine I certainly hope they don't believe their abstinence will lead to immortality...they are in for a disappointment.

As for the taste benefits your blanket statement is a pretty subjective assertion to state so definitively. Like saying liver and onions taste better than hamburgers to everyone. Now I happen to hate liver and onions, but I know people who definitely believe liver and onions are better tasting than hamburgers.

[Codeine]

8. What about natuarally occuring transfats?

How do they ban those? What about people who refuse to eat animal-based fats?

[pitohui]

11. ever heard of olive oil? sunflower oil? in fact any number of vegetable oils?

there is no reason for margarine and other fake fats to be in the human diet

the vegans have lots of sources of quality oil, if you care about what goes into your body, it isn't butter or nothing, olive oil is a proven oil that has been around for a number of centuries

how many of us will die an early, horrible death because margarine was promoted as a cheap, safe alternative to butter? a lot of us

this law will come too late for many who were deceived into thinking they were eating a healthy diet when, in fact, they were poisoning themselves with margarine

[Codeine]

14. Margarines can be made without transfats,

or with minimal amounts. I'm just afraid the demonizing of margarine will lead to everybody returning to, as you say, "butter or nothing." :shrug:

Plus, I just hate the taste of butter. Nasty. :puke:

[Akoto]

17. Actually ...

Most trans fats are artificially produced now, but there is natural trans fat (albeit a small amount) in meat and dairy. The only way to 100% avoid the stuff is to pretty much eat greens and drink water.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend trans fats. I actually used to post quite a bit about them after my mom had a heart attack.

[somethingwicked911]

15. Next stop: High Fructose Corn Syrup

PLEASE!!!

And I always use butter in my recipes. Even those that call for margarine, you can get away with creaming your butter the old fashioned way.

[exothermic]

20. Gotta love this cradle to grave nanny-state shit.

:grr:

[Codeine]

25. Exactly.

I like margarine, and my consumption thereof neither harms nor irritates fellow diners, so let me choose to eat it. I find butter disgusting and refused to eat it even before I adopted a strict vegetarian diet.

Sure, there are plenty of trans-fat-free margarines out there, but because the Food Police have demonized the product rather than the ingredient I figure most restaurants will do away with marg entirely.

[exothermic]

27. My mom used margerine (and fed it to us) her whole life. She passed away a month ago

at age 93. The do-gooders should do that well.
:shrug:

[susanna]

106. I say if it's your thing, eat it.

What I do not appreciate, especially in this thread, is people demonizing butter and saying that food can only be cooked without it, or that somehow old-time food is dependent on margarine.

This thread cuts both ways; it's a paradox I guess.

[Lorien]

43. Yeah, bring back asbestos and DDT, dammit!

:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

45. That stuff is the shit

If I could, I'd coat myself in margarine, high fructose corn syrup, asbestos and DDT.

I'd live forever, damn it.

[susanna]

107. LOL! nt

[Overseas]

66. Yeah man, bring back smoking at the office ! /nt

[Overseas]

67. Such a huge burden -- they'll have to go fully hydrogenated now! How awful!

The partially hydrogenated fats will have to go fully hydrogenated now-- OH NO !! -- What a horrible burden !!

[Fox Mulder]

29. CA is the first state in the nation to become a nanny-state.

I'll never visit there again.

[LostinVA]

47. NYC banned it last year, and it's none the worse for wear

Transfat isn't a real food. It's a chemical used to extend shelf life and save money, while being really bad for people.

I also hate the term "nannystate," because it's such a RW meme. I know you're totally not a RWer, but that term is.

[WriteDown]

60. Uh....

No its not. Its not a chemical at all.

[WriteDown]

61. Uh....

No its not. Its not a chemical at all.

[LostinVA]

63. Transfats are man-made fats

[WriteDown]

68. Wrong twice

It is not a chemical and it is not a man-made fat since it naturally occurs in nature. The process of that results in the man-made VERSION of trans fats is actually quite simple.

[LostinVA]

70. Well, if you want to get technical, you're made of chemicals

So is everything else, but I'm using it to mean something man-made, like transfat.

[WriteDown]

72. Yes, but you wouldn't call...

wood, metal, or a car a chemical. By your definition we can call trans fat an atom. Once again, trans fats are naturally occuring. By your definition we would have to call vitamins man-made too. They can be made by man, but they are naturally occuring.

[Psephos]

73. You seem driven by the feelings and not the science

Nothing wrong with that in the personal realm, but in the political realm, it leads to all sorts of unanticipated consequences. In this instance, you think that trans-fats are unnatural (they're not) and evil (they're not). They have some negative health consequences when consumed in volume, but not like we've been told by news stories that depend on shocking us to catch attention and sell ad space. No one can say for sure what the actual consequences are except in general terms, because no one just eats trans-fats. In other words, there's no independent variable in the studies. Substances become toxic based on dose alone. Too much water can easily kill you. It's all about finding safe levels of ingestion. You miss this completely. Trans-fats do not harm you until a certain amount of them has been consumed. Anyone who actually reads the studies (notice I said studies, plural, not a study, singular) sees that there is little agreement and a lot of guesswork. It's all induction and not deduction. Induction is not your friend in complex, multivariate systems containing webs of feedback loops.

I also notice that no one is talking about all the disease that has been avoided because trans-fats have high spoilage resistance. That's one of their best uses, btw.

I avoid trans-fats, as I avoid a lot of other things, and it seems that we can get by without them. Yet I've eaten plenty of them in my life, before the current controversy, and am as healthy as an ox. My blood lipids are perfect. In any case, what goes in my mouth is my CHOICE. This country was set up to provide a political environment where liberty and self-decision are cornerstones of the way we live. Those are also cornerstones of true liberalism: tolerance, self-responsibility, and vigorous defense of the right to live within a civil body of law as we choose, not as someone else chooses. When someone else chooses, that creates a psychological and political dependency, and no end of corrupting influences. Which seems to me to be the ultimate goal of the authoritarians, anyway. They want a docile kingdom run their way.

Do you even know why they are called trans-fats? Do you have any understanding of organic or lipid chemistry? Any earnest study of metabolic physiology? You speak like someone who never took a science class she could avoid, who reads stuff on a blog or in a magazine article, and remember only the "evil" tag. Nutritional scientists have been wrong even more than climate scientists the past thirty years (and that's saying something). Add shaky science to a political chance to apply authoritarian emotions and now you have something that truly is dangerous to health - the health of our right to live as we see fit.

[merwin]

85. Not exactly wrong. Per wikipedia,

"Most trans fats consumed today are created industrially in partial hydrogenation of plant oils — a process developed in the early 1900s and first commercialized as Crisco in 1911. The goal of partial hydrogenation is to add hydrogen atoms to cis-unsaturated fats, making them more saturated. These saturated fats have a higher melting point, which makes them attractive for baking and extends their shelf-life."

While it may occur naturally in nature, the stuff you would eat in a restaurant that has it is NOT naturally occurring.

[kestrel91316]

160. Margarine and shortening are made in factories. They are not extracted from

plants or animals. Chemists invented them.

Please name the naturally-occuring trans fat you claim exists. Citation of peer-reviewed published research would be most helpful in backing up your rather tenuous case.

I suspect you are confusing saturated fats with trans fats.

Oh, and yes, I am one PChem class away from having received a minor in chemistry.

[WriteDown]

174. Most vitamins and almost all pharmaceuticals are made...

in factories. I imagine that you still use these. I already have a minor in chemistry, but I haven't used it in my career. Congratulations on your accomplishment!

[Snarkturian Clone]

53. Don't worry, the whole nation will follow suit

just to be stylish. No other reason.

[Overseas]

65. I hope that's a promise. Please do stay away.

[Fox Mulder]

71. Gee thanks.

:eyes:

[lib2DaBone]

41. Nuclear War is OK.....

Neocons can attack Iran... What is worse? Trans Fat or Human skin burning radiation?

[LostinVA]

46. Your post makes zero sense

It compares two completely unrelated things. Also, one is state government and one is Federal government. There is a difference.

[Overseas]

69. Much bigger fish to fry, so to speak.

[LostinVA]

76. The California government has nothing to do with international politics, though

So why compare transfats and Iran?

[Regret My New Name]

145. Just don't use transfats to fry them...

[pipoman]

48. After thinking about the OP

I began thinking of restaurants whose entire menu is composed of pre-prepared foods purchased from companies like Sysco and Ben E. Keith. There are many, and they have no control over the ingredients used in these products. It is no wonder that the legislation doesn't take effect for 2-3 years. There have been more trans fat free frying oils introduced in the last year or so and it wouldn't surprise me if in 2 years it would be difficult to buy trans fat frying oil at all in any state.

[LostinVA]

58. They have complete control over the ingredients in their products

They don't have to use Sysco pre-made shit. They're just being lazy.

[pipoman]

82. Once again you show your complete and total ignorance

about the restaurant and cooking business. Have you ever heard of a business plan? This is a plan required of most anyone who borrows money to finance a business. It is a plan for profitability based on concise production cost vs. sale price. A business plan may include the cost of equipment/labor/ingredients/utilities needed for that production.

My particular restaurant uses all homemade products, we employ skilled, desirable talent to do this. Some restaurants do not. The cost of ingredients for the production of products in my restaurant is a fraction of the cost of preprepared or bake and serve products. Add the cost of labor and preparation equipment onto the cost of ingredients and our product cost exceeds the cost of preprepared, like products. Contrary to public perception, the margin between restaurant success and failure is slim.

Lazy? Is it lazy not to be able to afford or justify the cost of a commercial stand mixer at $4,000-$20,000? What about the lack of skill needed to produce a consistently marketable product, is that lazy? Lack of consistency = failure in the restaurant world. How many times will you return to a restaurant for say...baked goods if on your first visit the baker had a bad day and the bread didn't rise correctly and turned out chewy instead of soft and fluffy? How far does your unrealistic perception go? Should restaurants cure their own hams, pastrami, and corned beef? Should they pickle their own pickles and ferment their own cooking wine and sauerkraut? The point is that many small and large restaurants in a state the size of California use preprepared products which are not available at the retail grocery level and claim these products as their own...in some cases signature products/dishes.

Do you think that the menu selections at Applebees or TGI are made to order from scratch in the kitchen? Here's a hint...No they are not, they are ALL preprepared. Now in order for a mom and pop to compete on a similar menu and pricing with these multinationals it may be necessary to use preprepared products. Some of those restaurants have been executing a business plan and have built successful businesses over decades using these products. Now they are being directed by people who have no more understanding of their business and finances than you to completely change what has made them great. It's wrong.

Oh, and Sysco and Ben E. Keith don't make any of the preprepared products anymore than Kroger makes the products on their shelves. They are made by companies like Swanson, Tyson, Pillsbury, Riches, and 1,000 others. These companies all produce a complete line of preprepared products which are not available at the retail level specifically for restaurants to build their menu and business plan around.

Bottom line is that if you eat at restaurants not on the level of Spago you are eating preprepared foods purchased THROUGH Ben E. Keith or Sysco. If you think everyone should eat at only restaurants which scratch make their entire menu, then, my friend, you are either unrealistic or an elitist.

[LostinVA]

88. I am well aware of what goes on in restuarants

And I would never eat at Applebees.

There are plenty of restaurants (not Spago level) that do not involve prepackaged foods. I've worked in them, Mr. Hospitaliano.

[pipoman]

94. Well there you go then

why do you feel the need to micro manage other peoples life for them? And please don't tell me it is "for the greater good"...pleeeese.

How about answering some of the other questions asked in my post? I am most interested in your answer to this one:

How far does your unrealistic perception go? Should restaurants cure their own hams, pastrami, and corned beef? Should they pickle their own pickles and ferment their own cooking wine and sauerkraut?

I would be willing to bet that there are far more restaurants who do in fact serve primarily preprepared food than those which do not, especially in the medium price range. The proof is in the kitchen. Who do most restaurants hire as cooks? Answer, high school kids and unskilled labor.If they actually have someone in the kitchen who can start with an empty pot and end up with something people will pay money to eat, that person makes enough money that they must fit into....yep, you guessed it, the business plan.

It sounds like you have all the answers and know exactly where you should eat. Why do you bother yourself with other's decisions? Maybe they don't believe that over cooked hamburger causes cancer, oh wait I guess it doesn't now. Maybe they don't believe that under cooked pork causes trichinosis, oh wait there hasn't been a case of trichinosis in the US from domestic pork in 30 years. Maybe they don't believe that chocolate causes acne, oh wait it doesn't. Maybe they don't believe that a vegetarian diet is far healthier than a balanced diet including meat, oh wait it isn't. Maybe they don't believe that transfats cause everyone to die prematurely, I don't, I think it's just more bullshit purveyed by those who wish to control everyone and everything.

[snooper2]

115. You are not going to get an answer

to your question FYI :hi:

[Regret My New Name]

146. I personally only patronize restaurants who raise the cows, pigs, and chickens in the kitchen.

[Mind_your_head]

83. Random thought/consideration........

Maybe this is one step closer to nation healthcare/single-payer system. If Americans mostly tended to avoid *high risk*/health-care heavy behavior, MAYBE the public/congress could be "brought around" to paying or it? (ban trans-fats, ban smoking....I'm a smoker, so I don't like that one, BUT....)

Just a thought. Probably "pie-in-the-sky-perfect-world-WRONG", but it's a thought.

Peace,
M_Y_H

[Mutley]

86. Yes, please. Tell me what I can and can't eat.

Next, tell me what I can and can't wear. Then tell me where I can and can't live. Tell me who I can and can't associate with. Tell me what music I can and can't listen to. Tell me what websites (especially those subversive liberal websites) I can and can't read. Tell me what religion I should practice. Tell me what time I'm no longer allowed to walk the streets at night. Clearly we are all too stupid to make our own decisions about life, and we really need the government to make them for us.

[LostinVA]

89. They're not limiting what you can eat at all

There is no reason to eat transfats. It's just something used in restaurants/packaged food to save money. It has a longer shelf life, but doesn't add any flavor. When I was a kid, Twinkies and Little Debbie's only had a shelf life of a week or so. It's because they were made with real ingredients, not fake transfats.

[Codeine]

90. You keep saying that there is no reason to eat transfats

but there is, darn it; some of us just prefer the taste and texture of margarine over butter. I find butter to be repulsive.

[Beaverhausen]

91. not all margarines have trans fats. Haven't you heard of Smart Balance?

http://www.smartbalance.com/Butter67.aspx

[Codeine]

108. That's not real margarine.

Smart Balance has dairy whey.

What's going to happen is that the Food Police have demonized the product (margarine) rather than the ingredient (transfat) sufficiently that this new law will result in restaurants going all-butter, which is disgusting.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WriteDown]

112. Care to try again? (disproven)

I am beginning to think that you have little or no experience in the kitchen.

http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/twinkies.asp


Also, care to refute the mayo clinic?:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/butter-vs-margarine/AN00835



More interesting stuff:

http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/butter.asp

[tidy_bowl]

144. Um, it's not....

...up to you or the nanny Gestapo state to decide whether I 'need' a particular food or additive. If you don't want to eat it, fine but don't shove your choice down everyone else's throat just because you believe it is 'bad'. I can see now why people dissolve so easily into a fascist state. If you clothe it into, 'because it's good for you', or, 'we know what's best for you', you can take all kinds of freedom away. I'm just amazed at the willingness to be sheeple.

[Baclava]

137. What about donuts? Are donuts outlawed now?

Smugglers will surely run the blockade to bring the Krispy Kremes to the people.

[tidy_bowl]

141. I'm all for....

....legislating choice as in having labels, restaurants and the like list the ingredients, that is reasonable. What is not reasaonable is for anyone especially the government nanny Gestapo forcing me into what they consider 'healthy' at the moment. They can't even get anything straight long enough to prove with certainty with all conflicting studies on this latest 'finding' or any other. If I need a nanny I will go see my mother until then, butt out.

[slackmaster]

142. Mandatory labeling and disclosure would have been sufficient

Too bad our government relies so heavily on criminalizing things and taking away choices.

[rayofreason]

148. Is it because trans fats smoke? n/t

[susanna]

184. Actually, no...

...transfats have a much higher smoking threshold than most "real" fats (save saturated).

[kestrel91316]

161. Trans fats should be kept out of our food just like arsenic should be

kept out of our food.

Trans fats are NOT FOOD. They are not recognized as food by our bodies, and just sludge up our veins. They should NEVER have been permitted on the GRAS list in the first place.

[WriteDown]

163. Just a little point...

Trans fats are natural and so is arsenic :). Too much of either is not a good idea though.

[kestrel91316]

166. Name the "natural" trans fat you are speaking of so repetitously.

These things have NAMES. State it. And state where it is found. And cite sources.

Here, I did your homework for you:
From Wikipedia - "........Another particular class of trans fats, vaccenic acid, occurs naturally in trace amounts in meat and dairy products from ruminants......."

The operative word there is TRACE amounts. Are you paying attention? Do you even understand the concept?

[WriteDown]

167. Sure!

conjugated linoleic acid, meat and dairy.

Here's one source:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Diet/Story?id=3069206&page=2

Also, asbestos is natural too

:evilgrin:

[kestrel91316]

169. LOL, when shortening and margarine are made from

conjucated linoleic acid, THEN we can talk. But they aren't, of course. So their existence is irrelevant to the discussion.

From Wikipedia:

Trans fat is the common name for a type of unsaturated fat with trans- isomer fatty acid(s). Trans fats may be monounsaturated or polyunsaturated.

Most trans fats consumed today are created industrially in partial hydrogenation of plant oils — a process developed in the early 1900s and first commercialized as Crisco in 1911. The goal of partial hydrogenation is to add hydrogen atoms to cis-unsaturated fats, making them more saturated. These saturated fats have a higher melting point, which makes them attractive for baking and extends their shelf-life. However, the catalyst also catalyses a side reaction that isomerizes some of the cis-unsaturated fats into trans-unsaturated fats instead of hydrogenating them completely. Another particular class of trans fats, vaccenic acid, occurs naturally in trace amounts in meat and dairy products from ruminants.

Unlike other dietary fats, trans fats are neither essential nor salubrious<1> and, in fact, the consumption of trans fats increases one's risk of coronary heart disease<2> by raising levels of "bad" LDL cholesterol and lowering levels of "good" HDL cholesterol. <3> Health authorities worldwide recommend that consumption of trans fat be reduced to trace amounts. Trans fats from partially hydrogenated oils are more deleterious than naturally occurring oils.<4>

Chemically, trans fats are made of the same building blocks as non-trans fats, but have a different arrangement. In trans fatty acid molecules, the hydrogen atoms are bonded to pairs of doubly bonded carbon atoms (characteristic of all unsaturated fats) in the trans rather than the cis arrangement. This results in a straight, rather than kinked, shape for the carbon chain, more like the straight chain of a fully saturated fat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You seem to have me confused with some people who equate "natural" with harmless. Don't. I have studied enough upper-division organic and biochemistry and physiology to make me ill, and then some, and got mostly A's doing it. I know arsenic and asbestos are both natural and toxic. I bet YOU didn't know that arsenic treatment is the cornerstone of canine heartworm therapy. Don't presume to lecture me about biochemistry.

Go ahead and keep pushing your product, Mr. Crisco. I ain't buyin' it.

[WriteDown]

171. You just asked for an example and I gave you one...

That is all. I love lard, but I like Crisco too for certain things. Nothing more than that. I have a little experience in chemistry myself.

[Snarkturian Clone]

180. Funny, I thought this board was pro-choice. NT