Church shooting: Police find manifesto in suspect’s car

[bigworld]

Source: Knoxville News

Police apparently found a multi-page, handwritten letter in the vehicle of the shotgun-wielding suspect charged in Sunday’s mass shooting during a children’s play at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church.

The letter apparently offers some clues about accused shooter Jim D. Adkisson’s motive for targeting the church’s congregation, although specifics were not immediately available.

John Gill, special assistant to Knox County District Attorney General Randy Nichols, said this morning "it would be inappropriate at this time" to discuss any evidence that may or may not have been found.

"It’s very early in this investigation and at this point we need to let the smoke clear before anyone talks too much," Gill said.

Read more: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Yahoo news said that the killer's neighbors

said he didn't attend church and talked about being forced to attend church as a child, so it appears he isn't a fundie. It will be interesting to find out the details of this manifesto--is it anti-liberal, perhaps?

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. So this will be spun as an amoral atheist murdering the faithful

Limpballs and his ilk hate atheists more than they hate liberals, after all.

[qanda]

8. I'm watching the press conference

And they are saying that his motive was to target "Liberals and gays". Very sad!

[superconnected]

153. Sounds like he bought into the respublican hate campaign

[johnfunk]

2. Alleged shooter self-described "Confederate"

From WBIR's web site:

A neighbor told 10News [alleged shooter Jim] Adkisson described himself as a "Confederate" and a "believer in the old South." She says Adkisson self-identified in this way to her on more than one occasion, but that she didn't know what he meant by it.

A "Confederate" and "believer in the old South." In other words, he hates the United States of America.

Is it too goddamn hard for anyone in the media to
say he's a "domestic terrorist"?

[gratuitous]

3. Adkisson would only be described as a terrorist if he had torched an SUV

But shooting up a liberal church and killing two people? Well, we need to understand the poor Confederate dear.

[sui generis]

5. now, exactly when did the civil wawa end?

has anyone told the confederates yet that the wawa between the states has ended?

[fjc]

7. It didn't.

[codjh9]

75. That's the f-ing truth!

[Judi Lynn]

340. An unbearable truth.Glad you mentioned it.Take someone's property or destroy it,you're dead meat.n/t

[santamargarita]

4. In other words, he's a Republican!

What a shock

[murdoch]

99. Shooter's shirt has the Tennessee flag

I'm sure he meant it as some kind of message. That he is for "state's rights" or something like that. This guy is not living in the new South, but in the past. Way in the past - even in the 1950s and 1960s Tennessee had senators like Estes Kefauver and Al Gore Senior. He tries to wrap himself in the Tennessee flag just like people like him try to wrap themselves in the American flag.

[yardwork]

316. I won't be surprised if he turns out to be a white supremacist.

If he had a computer, I hope that LE check the websites he's been visiting. I'll bet it will include white supremacist neo-Nazi sites. They're heavily into the fantasy of the "Old South" and they're murderously racist.

[Ian David]

9. Isn't 101st Airborne the one that's had a whole bunch of really odd problems...

Like the abuse of "Persons Under Control," and the two guys who accidentally jumped off a cliff in Canada while trying to avoid paying cab fair after dancing as strippers in a Canadian gay bar?

[yardwork]

12. Since this man was a veteran, why wasn't the VA helping him?

Just wondering.

[Ian David]

13. They helped him plenty. They fed him a steady diet of Fox "News"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3671448

[LostinVA]

152. If you allow me to do a Frist, I don't think he has a mental illness

He sounds like a sociopath to me. Very hateful, and nothing can ever help him.

[superconnected]

154. Yep, and sociopathy appears to be a mostly republican disease.

[Ian David]

39. Self-correction: I was thinking of 82nd Airborne

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=008177

[Ian David]

10. Limbaugh says Liberals are the real threat. John McCain says Democrats are the enemy.

This is why I am posting THIS:

Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell*

I hope you didn't open this page to read what we already know: that this is the most rightwing government we have ever had in the US, even far right of Bush I, that our rights are being eroded daily, and that our democratic process is all but gone, if it isn't already gone.

I hope you came here to read about tactics for action that will finally have some consequence. I hope you agree that our protests, petitions, letters, and on and on, have been utterly ignored. The fascistas that run our country laugh at us. They believe they can do anything and that we haven't got the guts to revolt, but only to wage a war of words. I have seen the Bush cavalcades, as they drive away, his aids sneering and jeering and laughing and mocking our protests. They think we are a JOKE. Tens of millions of Americans protested the war, but because we posed no REAL THREAT to their power, we were UTTERLY IGNORED.

As long as we pose no REAL threat to the powers-that-be, to what is shaping up into a dictatorship, we will continue to be ignored. Right now, we are ignored because we present no organized power to fight this onslaught of anti-democratic, totalitarian government that we are up against.

It will take time, but it's time to get more left-leaning liberals and outright leftists to at least POSE a threat, by getting organized and getting ARMED. It's time to get well past this liberal phobia and taboo about weapons and force. After all, our liberalism was won with a REVOLUTIONARY WAR! they used real guns in that war. The French Revolution was also a WAR and they used real weapons there too.

More:
http://www.legitgov.org/essay_southwell_arming_the_left_is_the_time_now_102203.html


See also:



http://www.pinkpistols.org/

[DailyGrind51]

147. When will Limbaugh suffer the same fate as Savage?

[Ian David]

156. Our tax dollars are paying to transmit Limbaugh on our state-sponsored Armed Forces radio.

So, when people all around the world wanna know who the U.S. Government has chosen as a paid representative of their political views...

They hear Rush Limbaugh and "Doctor" Laura.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

304. Who determines what content is on the Armed Forces radio?

I'd like to say that you might be able to raise a finger at Limbaugh's presence and demand that the other side be given a fair voice, too. Either that or let everyone (including conservative colleagues, etc,) know that you're boycotting the station until it abolishes all systematic right-wing ideological bias from its schedule.

[Ian David]

308. We did that and got Ed Schultz sort-of carried by some Armed Forces Radio outlets. n/t

[fudge stripe cookays]

328. This is why it is so important...

for Obama to reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine.

[jbane]

320. And that is so wrong.

He has no business being on there. That really pisses me off, sorry to vent.

[Crowman1979]

326. Makes me glad I was not listening to it.

It was either "The Doors", "Van Halen", whatever else I brought with me or some Iraqi music I heard on the radio. Languages I don't understand and Jim's acid & whiskey influenced lyrics make waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy more sense than anything rush has ever said in his entire insignificant existance.

[Ian David]

11. Who could have POSSIBLY made him hate Liberals so much?

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/19192/

http://digg.com/politics/Michael_Savage_s_Home_Address_on_the_Water_on_Google_Maps_PIC

[olddad56]

145. oh, I don't know, maybe his religun and his edukashun.

[MotherhoodISacareer]

339. For what it’s worth – views of a conservative

On behalf of conservatives, first let me say that my heart goes out to the victims and their families. This was a senseless tragedy.

Obviously, this attacker was deranged. No sound minded conservative… American… or human being… no one would condone such action. Regardless of how much Jim Adkisson may have disagreed with liberal views or lifestyles, his actions were absolutely deplorable and inexcusable.

One of the greatest things about our country is that we can disagree with each other, with our government and with our media, openly and freely, without fear of harm or repercussion. Adkisson violated one of the most fundamental principles of what it means to be American.

Who’s to blame? Rush Limbaugh? FOX news? President Bush? His parents? Or maybe it was Karl Rove’s fault?

Blaming this on someone other than Jim Adkisson is irrational. Let’s face it. The man’s an adult. He made certain choices. He acted as an individual and he is accountable as an individual. (Conservatives, as you may know, are big believers in personal responsibility, and what’s good for the goose, as they say, is good for the gander.) He is responsible for his own actions. And he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

If you asked me, I’d suggest some more creative methods of punishment then the ones currently available. For example, I think one appropriate punishment would be deportation to a country where one doesn’t enjoy the liberties offered by the First Amendment. Furthermore, as an advocate for gun rights (for those who use them lawfully), I would also recommend that on top of whatever penalties he receives, he should get an additional 50 years for committing a crime with a gun. Law abiding citizens should be allowed to arm themselves, but people like this have made life difficult for decent people who want to obtain a gun for lawful purposes. Therefore, those who use guns to commit a crime should be punished severely in order to deter gun crimes. That’s the best gun control there is – and it only hurts the bad guys, not the good guys.

Anyway, that’s my opinion. I thought it was worth saying. Adkisson does not represent conservatives, even though this may seem like the perfect opportunity to “prove” that all conservatives are violent nut jobs. They’re not. Adkisson represents lunatics at large. He’s an embarrassment to conservatives, to Americans and to the human race.

And just another small reminder: Let’s face it, there are radicals on both ends of the spectrum, and lunatics will, unfortunately surface from time to time. But the minute we, Americans, take up arms against each other over the differences in our views, is the minutes we will be handing our real enemies – those foreign radicals who truly hate ALL of us and strive for our eternal demise -- a priceless gift on a silver platter.

So let’s disagree and verbally duke it our all we want, but at the end of the day, let’s remember and respect the fact that ultimately, we have more in common than not, that we are all Americans, and no matter how bad we may think things are, and no matter how much we want to blame each other for that, let’s keep in mind that things could be much worse – we could be living somewhere else, and trust me, (I’ve been there) the grass is way browner over there… if there’s any grass at all!

[brooklynite]

14. UPDATE: Church shooting suspect angry over job search, police say

KNOXVILLE, Tennessee (CNN) -- The suspect in a fatal shooting at a Knoxville church Sunday was motivated by frustration over being unable to obtain a job and hatred for the liberal movement, police said Monday.

Jim Adkisson, 58, was charged with first-degree murder after Sunday's shooting at the Knoxville church.

1 of 3 Authorities recovered a four-page letter in which the suspect described his feelings and motives, police said.

The case is being investigated as a hate crime, police said.

Authorities also discovered a letter from the state government telling the suspect he was having his food stamps reduced or eliminated, police said.

CNN

[yardwork]

42. He was mad at liberals for reducing his food stamps? He truly was deranged.

Unfortunately, I hear this kind of thing from right-wingers all the time. They don't seem to understand much at all about the world we're living in.

[yellowcanine]

73. He blames a liberal church for his inability to get a job and his food stamps getting cut?

He really has things backward, doesn't he? It amazes me that losers like this can be so misinformed. Who does he think would be more likely to support him in his claim for food stamps -the fundy Baptists or the liberal UUs?

[helderheid]

15. BREAKING NEWS: Suspect's letter indicates Tenn. church targeted because of liberal views, police say

Source: MSNBC

Breaking now on MSNBC.com

UPDATE:

Police: Killer targeted church for liberal views

2 people killed, seven hurt, after man opens fire in Tennessee church

updated 2 minutes ago

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - The man accused of shooting dead two people and wounding seven others at a church apparently selected the congregation because of its liberal social stance, the city's police chief said Monday.

Chief Sterling Owen said police found a letter in the car of Jim Adkisson, who was tackled and held by members of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church after the Sunday morning attack.

Owen said Adkisson was apparently frustrated over being out of work and had a "stated hatred of the liberal movement."

The church is known for advocating women's and gay rights and founding an American Civil Liberties Union chapter.

Owen said the letter indicated Adkisson did not expect to leave the church alive and had 76 rounds of ammunition for his 12-gauge semiautomatic shotgun.

Adkisson entered the church during a children's performance of "Annie," killing two, including a man witnesses called a hero for shielding others from gunfire.




Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25872864/

[Pale Blue Dot]

16. Wow. So he wasn't a deranged atheist, as his neighbors claimed?

Color me shocked.

[MindPilot]

23. That's the direction the media always wants to take these tragedies

But it never seems to work out for them. :evilgrin:

[rfranklin]

25. Right wing terrorism fueled by religious fanatcism...

None of that softie liberal Kumbaya stuff!

[Joanne98]

17. Thanks Rush Limbaugh!!!!!!!!!

[fasttense]

26. Lay these murders at Rush Limpball and hate radios feet. They are to blame.

They have incited violence, murdered two people, injured seven and have left hundreds to suffer from the shock for the rest of their lives. I wonder if Rush and his hate radio spawn are satisfied now? He is shouting fire in a theater and everyone pretends it's only politics

But the silver lining is that a group of unarmed liberals took down this armed right wing crazy. Conservatives would have all scrambled to get out letting everyone to handel it on their own.

[Ian David]

44. Conservatives would never see the play Annie because it has a Liberal bias.

Daddy Warbucks learns that love is more important than money, and Annie inspires FDR to start The New Deal.

[0rganism]

89. shades of "The Fisher King"?

I guess the big difference is Bridge's radio host had a tortured conscience, completely absent from the current crop of hate radio artistes.

[wordpix]

332. File a complaint charging Limpballs, InsHannity and Savage as accomplices!

Their hate speech should be stopped. They have a right to their stupid opinions based on prejudice and ignorance but their lying rants urging people to such actions should be pulled off the air.

[Ian David]

41. Yes, thanks, Rush!

Mega-dittos, Rush Limbaugh! http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/19192

[OnionPatch]

167. That was my first thought.

The way RW hate-radio is saturating all of our airwaves, I'm shocked that this doesn't happen a lot more often.

[tularetom]

18. Hope yer happy MSNBC

You and all your cable buddies promoting hate and demonizing "liberals".

[codjh9]

28. MSNBC? I thought Keith Olbermann was on MSNBC. ??

[Ian David]

45. Keith is their exception to their own rule. n/t

[Doctor_J]

56. yes, the 4 hrs/week that aren't dominated by purveyors of lies & hate

your days are numbered, cod

[deminks]

19. Rethuglicans: Mission Accomplished. nt.

[fascisthunter]

21. Remember what happened in Rwanda?

All started with hate radio....

[libnnc]

49. exactly

I've been making that comparison for a long while. :cry:

[truth2power]

79. You have my sincere thanks, fascisthunter, for posting this...

I saw the movie, Hotel Rwanda, but for some reason I never knew this. Maybe everyone else on this board was aware, but you know, there are so many atrocities day after day, that some things just fly under the radar.

Because of your one short post, I learned something new. There are a lot of links on Google. I've marked them for later reading. At least one of those purveyors of hate was sentenced to life in prison. Good! Here's a link to an article:

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/features/media/dossiers/rwanda-h.html

[fascisthunter]

84. Glad I Could Be of Some Help

that's what makes this site so important. Sharing information...

[truth2power]

95. ...

:thumbsup:

[Judi Lynn]

341. And thanks to truth2power for thanking you because I read that link and learned a lot.

You can't imagine how much time you give people when you bring important information forward for those of us who haven't worked in finding out about these things correctly yet.

Just knowing a little makes the job ahead of looking for information seem so important, and more welcome, since I at least have a simple grasp as a starting point.

It's a gift, and you'd better believe it! Thank you.

[Posteritatis]

146. Insert book recommendation here

Romeo Dallaire, Shake Hands with the Devil. The movie's one thing, the account of the guy on the scene's on an altogether different level. It's harrowing to say the least, but definitely relevant to this subthread.

[fascisthunter]

20. Thanks Right Wing Media..... Your Hatred is On Display

Keep up the great work... maybe someday you'll get your civil war so you can use your guns on us all.

[Doctor_J]

55. If they do, it will be the end of their movement

We have the vast advantage in numbers, intelligence, and righteousness. The foot soldiers of the hate radio movement are going to be disappointed when their "leaders" flee to safety like the cringeing cowards they are.

[fascisthunter]

85. right on....

[Zenlitened]

22. Hates them liberals, but loves his food stamps. Uh... you're welcome?

A deep-thinker, this guy isn't. :crazy:

AP NewsAlert

16 minutes ago

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Police: suspect's letter indicates Tenn. church was targeted for shooting because of liberal views.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ijDA5bgxiHlTvS_r-SSjskS1Tq1wD926TNQ01

Police: Church Shooting Suspect Hated Liberals And Gays

Knoxville, TN -- Police officials and city leaders addressed the media Monday regarding Sunday morning's shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church.

Points made during the press conference: -KPD Chief Owen says the shooter acted alone, and based on a letter found after the shooting, the suspect was troubled by joblessness, and wanted to strike a blow at a "liberal movement."

(snip)

-Owen: Shooter targeted Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church due to "recent publicity" the church had received regarding its "liberal stance" on things.

(snip)

-Owen: the shooter was disturbed because his food stamps were soon to be reduced, and he believed "the liberal movement" was getting better jobs than he was.

http://www.digtriad.com/news/national_world/article.aspx?storyid=108054&catid=175

[codjh9]

29. Hey, MOST of 'em aren't deep thinkers!

[bdamomma]

24. proves how some RW people are truly that sick to take lives.

[codjh9]

27. Very, VERY scary

I've been afraid of something like this happening in this country, but this is the first time I've actually heard of an incident. We better all hope that it's an isolated incident perpetrated by one crazed fool, and not the beginning of a trend. Although this is really extreme, it fits in with what I just read in 'The Big Sort' - about how we've gotten more and more polarized, in so many ways, in the past 30+ years. Just look at how sick this mo-fo is, though - he went into a CHURCH to shoot people!?!?!?!?!

[yardwork]

30. It's already part of a trend.

The media doesn't report this much, but most of the recent mass murders involving schools and churches were perpetrated by people with extreme right-wing views. Time after time it turns out that the murderers had websites praising Hitler, were extreme racists, and hated "liberals and gays."

[raccoon]

47. I believe you, but can you give us a link? nt

[yardwork]

50. No links, it's only my observation.

Columbine - the killers had neo-Nazi crap on their websites and the day they chose had something to do with Hitler.
Timothy McVeigh - extreme right-wing views, was part of a white supremacist survivalist group.
Steve Kazmierczak (Northern Illinois University) - recent article in GQ discusses his racist, white supremacist views.
Larry Ashbrook - supposed "anti-Christian" killer of seven in Texas church shooting, turned out to be a right-winger.

And so forth. I've noticed a real trend.

In many cases the media portray these killers as "anti-Christian" but further investigation proves them to be extreme right-wingers with white supremacist, homophobic, anti-liberal views.

Edited - down-thread another poster notes that Erik Rudolph, the anti-abortion white supremacist mountain survivalist who killed people during the Atlanta Olympics also fits the type. Rudolph was shielded and protected in the North Carolina mountains by like-minded people for years after his murders.

[raccoon]

51. It was Hitler's birthday, April 20.

"Columbine - the killers had neo-Nazi crap on their websites and the day they chose had something to do with Hitler."

Hmm........you've given me something to think about.

[yardwork]

54. I just read Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith by Jon Krakauer

It's about the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), an offshoot of the Mormon Church. Two men killed their sister-in-law and her baby daughter because they were convinced that God told them to eliminate them. They were uppity women.

[raccoon]

58. I've read 2 of Krakauer's books. Thanks for the heads up. nt

[DebbieCDC]

138. I've read that as well

Excellent book and scary as hell.

[RamboLiberal]

60. We had a local case in Pittsburgh in April of 2000

Richard Baumhammer.

What was so chilling was the unhurried, methodical demeanor of a goateed gunman, firing a handgun and wreaking ethnic and racial terror from an old-money section of Mt. Lebanon to an Indian grocery, a Chinese restaurant and a karate school.

Along the 20-mile trail of blood across two counties, five people were slain yesterday, another was gravely wounded and two synagogues were damaged by gunshots. One, the temple of the woman who is believed to be the first victim, was defaced with a spray-painted swastika and the word "Jew."

In the final act of mayhem played out over 72 minutes, the gunman killed a black karate student after he reportedly pointed his weapon at but spared the life of a white companion.

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000429shootings2.asp

His toll was a elderly Jewish neighbor, 2 India natives in a Indian grocery store(1 killed, 1 paralyzed who lived only a few years), 2 Chinese immigrants at the Chinese restaraunt, and the black karate student. I think of it often for at the time I was a instructor/student a another branch at that karate school and knew the instructor and his family. And except for running late I might have been at that restaurant that day. But I guess I would've been safe cause the jerk was only gunning for minorities.

He ran a RW hate website btw. And he was a lawyer though too wacky apparently to have a practice. He lived with his rich parents.

What was weird was just a month before that shooting spree we had a mentally-ill African-American man who went on a shooting spree targeting whites at an apartment and 2 fast food restaurants.

[codjh9]

74. You're right... I don't know what I hadn't put it together before. Shit!

[ieoeja]

144. Not 1, but 2 attacks on the White House.

One guy tried ramming it with a small plane.

Another fired off several rounds from a semi-auto assault rifle on the street out front.


The follower of a white supremacist church shot the Black head coach of Northwestern University's basketball team. I think he shot a couple other people along the way as well.

[fudge stripe cookays]

329. This guy too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Nathaniel_Smith

[RamboLiberal]

62. I always blamed Limpballs and his hate radio minions

for Oklahoma City bombing by RW nutcase Timothy McVeigh and his small bunch. President Clinton tried to lay some of the blame on them as well but got howled down.

I always feared for Clinton during his presidency b/c of the hatred Limpballs and the other RW nuts, including the RW politicians, were drumming up against him.

[McTorture]

324. Bush Pardons Himself

It doesn't help when the Bush administration, a majority of the Republican party, and McCain all condone torture then call it 'enhanced interrogation'...

"Bush Pardons Himself": Detainee Legislation Provides Retroactive Immunity for Bush Adminstration War Crimes
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3416

--

The US Torture Bill that was recently passed, has a provision buried deep inside this legislation that will pardon President Bush and all the members of his administration of any possible crimes connected with the torture and mistreatment of detainees dated all the way back to September 11, 2001.

The United States Constitution forbids the use of torture. I guess that's why the Bush administration is sending detainees overseas to be tortured. That's one way around the law I guess. But then there is this...

the US Constitution's eighth amendment forbids the use of "cruel and unusual punishments", which is widely interpreted as a prohibition of the use of torture. Finally, 18 U.S.C. § 2340 et seq. define and forbid torture outside the United States.

Under the War Crimes Act, violations of the Geneva Conventions are felonies. In some cases, punishable by death.

When the Supreme Court ruled the Geneva Conventions applied to al Qaeda and Taliban detainees, President Bush and his boys were suddenly in big trouble. They had been working these prisoners over pretty good.

As the United States Constitution recognizes customary international law, or the law of nations, the U.S. Alien Tort Claims Act also provides legal remedies for victims of torture in the United States. Specifically, the status of torturers under the law of the United States, as determined by a famous legal decision in 1980, Filártiga v. Peña-Irala, 630 F.2d 876 (1980), is that, "the torturer has become, like the pirate and the slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind.

--

McCain Defends Vote On Waterboarding
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/20/politics/main3852533.shtml?source=search_story

--

The House passed the US Torture Bill that retroactively pardons all members of the Bush administration for torture.

McCain argues that torture works. Sure torture works. It worked with the Medieval Inquisition during the 12th and 13th century. And it worked again with the Spanish Inquisition during the 16th century, when, to gain a confession of heresy, and because it believed they were a threat, the Catholic Church waterboarded Jews and Protestants.

Torture surfaced its ugly head again with the Salem Witch Trials of 1692 when the guilty were burned alive.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To gain a confession of heresy and because it believed they were a threat, the Catholic Church waterboarded Jews and Protestants in the 16th century.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Spanish Inquisition - (16th century)
=======================

In order to interrogate the accused, the Inquisition made use of torture, but not in a systematic way. It was applied mainly against those suspected of Judaism and Protestantism, beginning in the 16th century.

"In order to interrogate the accused, the Inquisition made use of torture, but not in a systematic way. It was applied mainly against those suspected of Judaism and Protestantism, beginning in the 16th century. For example, Lea estimates that between 1575 and 1610 the court of Toledo tortured approximately a third of those processed for heresy.<31> In other periods, the proportions varied remarkably. Torture was always a means to obtain the confession of the accused, not a punishment itself. It was applied without distinction of sex or age, including children and the aged."

Introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had impression of drowning.

"The methods of torture most used by the Inquisition were garrucha, toca and the potro. The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the criminal from the ceiling by a pulley with weights tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated.<32> The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had impression of drowning (see: waterboarding).<33> The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently.<34>"

"The assertion that "confessionem esse veram, non factam vi tormentorum" (the confession was true and free) sometimes follows a description of how, presently after torture ended, the subject freely confessed to the offenses.<35>"

- Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#The_trial

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Medieval Inquisition - (12th and 13th century)
====================

Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden.

"Torture was used after 1252. On May 15, Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors. Torture methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death were forbidden. Also, torture could be performed only once. However, it was common practice to consider a second torture session to be a "continuation" of the first. People were also tortured by getting hung by their wrists, and have weights hung by their ankles."

- Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition#Torture

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[MessiahRp]

31. Right Wingers = Terrorists

They blow up Abortion Clinics, go to war with countries that did not attack us and consider murdering innocent civilians acceptable... now this.

RWers are no better than those other Religious Extremists in the Taliban. Different book, same ol' shit.

Rp

[yardwork]

32. The evidence supports that conclusion.

[Burma Jones]

33. Don't forget Oklahoma City, McVeigh was a Right Winger too.

[Hawaii Hiker]

38. And so was the Atlanta 1996 Olympic bomber - He was an anti-abortion

nutcase...I think his name was Erik Rudolph, he was caught years after the incident...

[yardwork]

52. Rudolph was protected for years by people in the mountains of North Carolina

who agreed with his white supremacist views and thought of him as a "hero" for murdering people.

[codjh9]

82. Absolutely - they're just a different stripe of the same nutsology

[superconnected]

157. Yep, us vegetarian - bleeding heart - tree huggers just don't seem to need to kill people.

Its takes someone who really hates others to do that. It takes a republican.

And I say it again, republicanism and sociopathy go hand and hand.

[Pavulon]

161. Fuck,, I better hope my mom

does not start murdering people tomorrow. I mean she is a republican. Keep her away from clock towers!

mentally ill people kill people, the vast majority of murders, say the other 40,000 or so this year are not political.
kiddies are save at school. 162 homicides over 12 years at schools.

More probably<> die from bus accidents than murder. Certainly more die in auto accidents.

This is called empirical fact. To your point.

Half of all murder victims in the us were black. Their killers were 96% black.

Blacks vote D 90% or more.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/08/study-half-of-u.html
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5526a1.htm

This PROBABLY correlates to drug policy, poverty, and other factors.

The premise that all murder is political is insulting. The vast number of murders are not political or social acts. They are based on mental illness, drug policy, or domestic abuse. Suicide is the leading reason for shooting deaths.

Lots of people are not thinking about reality when they are posting.

[yardwork]

171. Nobody has said that all murder is political. That's a straw man.

We're pointing out the fact that there have been a number of politically-motivated mass murders lately, and they've all been perpetrated by right-wingers. Meanwhile, the media keeps talking about the "war on Christmas."

It sounds like you don't care about the people who died yesterday since you can't make points off them. That's disgusting.

[Pavulon]

175. ad hominem..

but who is counting. The whole broad brush here is disturbing.

[kestrel91316]

318. Defending RW terrorists and murderers is quite unbecoming for a DUer.

[superconnected]

174. Who said "all" murders? And you think you spout facts?

if x is part of y, and some y's are part of s, then all x's are part of s no? No.

[Pavulon]

177. broad brush

"And I say it again, republicanism and sociopathy go hand and hand."

I say they dont. I have numbers, you have nothing. Buh bye.

No correlation exists between political affiliation and murder. Now if you want to hand pick a sample feel free.

[superconnected]

178. most sociopaths don't murder

Sociopathy is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:

* Psychopathy
* Antisocial personality disorder
* Dissocial personality disorder

Criteria for Dissocial Personality Disorder

Specifically, the dissocial personality disorder is described by the World Health Organization by the following criteria:

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5. Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6. Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
7. Persistent irritability.

from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissocial_personality_disorder

[Pavulon]

179. Correlate it to political affiliation..

then you you have something.

[superconnected]

180. If you haven't figured out yet that the republicans are usually the ones calling

for the death of the liberals - saying things like we should be lined up and shot, and how they have repeated said things like nuke iraq, iran and the whole mideast, then I can't help you.

Walks away wondering how some people here escaped freeperville. Usually not being part of them starts with a recoginization of their deep seated hatred for anyone who doesn't think like them.

[Pavulon]

181. No those are assholes..

My parents are republicans. Right of center people who don't condone or support mass murder, here or overseas. Never heard that shit. Never heard racist or homophobic crap. Heard lots about tax policy and fiscal policy.

My father is a combat vet and had a good career. Mom worked as well. They retired like normal people.

I am left of center, have different views but all get along.

When we stop recognizing people as normal people, like us, we have a problem. Normal people can have different political opinions without being murders.

This person who killed these people is a murdering scum. Any person who condones it is scum.

If you walked into any Conservative Church and asked what they thought about those shootings they would despise them, just like us.

His politics are not relevant other than he used them for motive. That is RARE in US murder.

I have put up DATA stating as much.

[yardwork]

294. How's that Republican fiscal policy working for your parents?

Nobody here is saying anything like "all Republicans are murderers." You are overreacting.

[Judi Lynn]

342. Absolutely. You've had company in this belief for years, no doubt whatsoever. n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

34. Let's see if Mr. Crackpot still loves the death penalty now.

since he may be facing just that.

[rateyes]

37. The irony of that is the fact that the UU Church would be the first

ones to ask that he not be given the death penalty.

[TheCowsCameHome]

43. I'll bet he was a big supporter of capital punishment.

Everything else about him fits.............

[nam78_two]

35. Did anyone notice he opened fire during a performance by some children?

This guy sounds like a nasty, nasty piece of work.

The church is known for advocating women's and gay rights and founding an American Civil Liberties Union chapter.
Evil, evil church....
The way some of these people think is scary and fucked up.

[Endangered Specie]

61. A perfect example of why Liberals and Democrats should be armed...

you really want *them* to have a monopoly on guns?

[B3Nut]

90. Amen to that

I'd never ever want to be put in that position, but I damn sure want that option if there's no other escape. It's a damned sad commentary on our species when such options are made necessary...it would be so much better if it wasn't. But reality blows chunks like that sometimes.

[Endangered Specie]

159. mhmm, Ive been going back and forth on getting a CCW licensce for some time now...

this event just might make me do it.

[Pavulon]

163. This stuff is exceedingly rare

I would not use something like this to make a choice on ccw. If you want one get one, if you feel safer and want the responsibility it carries, go for it.

However buying a weapon because of this is like people who bought weapons after the LA riots.

[Endangered Specie]

165. mmm, I wont make any rash decisions then...

but it certainly makes you wonder, usually we associate random political motivated killings as a 3rd world unstable country type problem.

[yardwork]

172. I notice that you seem more scared of black people than right-wing murderers.

That tells me a lot about your point of view.

[Pavulon]

176. you know jack shit.

i am not afraid of "right wing" murders, jets being flown into my building, or h5n1.

I used fbi crime stats to gut your stupid ass political murder sociopath theory. You know numbers and data, what your post lacked.

I do worry about you or your kid on the cell, smsing me to death, while running a stop sign.

Your odds of being shot by anyone, black, asian, or whomever are slim. One spree killing should not motivate a person to buy a firearm.

[yardwork]

295. I don't own firearms and don't intend to buy any.

I must have missed your numbers and data. Where are they?

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

303. You couldn't have said it better!

If conservatives love guns so much, maybe it's so that they can bully people who don't conform to their values and cultural expectations. Maybe they'd think twice about pulling out the guns on their political enemies if they felt the "other side" was equally armed.

I hate to sound like I'm promoting a "cold civil war arms race," but maybe we need more of the nation's guns in the hands of tolerant, law abiding citizens who will only use them in truly defensive situations.

[Lisa]

98. If one is looking for liberals, a UU church is indeed such a place ...

Here is a sample of some of the things that Unitarian Universalist congregations have been doing over the past few years.
http://www.uuworld.org/news/topics/congregations.shtml

A couple of friends of mine are UU lay clergy in Virginia. They lobbied the legislature for gay rights, and had a large banner supporting gays and lesbians outside their church. The banner was torched -- twice. Then vandals made a cross-shape out of leaves on the church lawn and set fire to it. The congregation still refused to back down.

People all over the continent will be grieving in UU churches this weekend, but my guess is that they will not be the least bit sorry about their involvement in civil rights and social justice.

[nam78_two]

36. His first victim was a foster dad who tried to stop him

This guy was a Republican jerk and a domestic terrorist.

[rateyes]

40. Well, I guess now he'll have to cast his vote for McCain by absentee ballot. nt

[Judi Lynn]

46. Now the big job lies ahead for librul message boards trying to determine which troll is missing. n/t

[MinneapolisMatt]

48. Sounds like a terror attack in my opinion.

At the very least, a hate crime.

[brentspeak]

53. All it took for this whacko to get a gun was walk into a pawn shop and buy one

No personal interview by the local cops, no nothing.

Relying solely on computer background checks for gun purchases is a joke, completely inadequate. And more innocent people continue to die.

[MicaelS]

59. Interview by local cops?

So NOW you trust the police, right? You trust the police to determine whether you should be able to exercise your freedoms? Now THAT is a joke. I do NOT want some local police official who is a political appointee / hire making the decision that I am fit to own a gun. That turns those supposed to be our servants into our masters.

Fuck all that. :puke: :mad: :nuke:

[slackmaster]

71. Go easy on brentspeak, he lives in New Jersey

:D

[MicaelS]

80. New Jersey?

Well that explains that....:rofl:

[brentspeak]

83. I guess you consider that lack of gun crime = "funny"

We don't have anywhere near the number of shooting rampages that many of the "gun" states do.

Alive and in one-piece = "funny"; shot dead or paralyzed = "ok", I guess... :eyes:

[Pavulon]

151. Newark and Camden..Bastions of safety

really. I think murder is illegal anyway.

[benEzra]

285. Your gun murder rate is considerably higher than that of "gun-loving" New Hampshire

or Minnesota, and on par with Florida (4.8/100K for you, 5.0/100K for Florida, last time I checked).

Shooting rampages are, thankfully, rare in pretty much every state. And .73-caliber shotguns are just as legal in NJ as they are in Tennessee.

BTW, ~49 of the 50 states have considered and rejected processes such as yours. The biggest problem is the potential for intimidation if you get an officer who doesn't like the idea of the "little people" owning guns. You are more likely to encounter that attitude in NJ than anywhere else, since NJ has the nation's lowest legal gun ownership rate (~13% of households, if I remember correctly).

http://www.njguns.com/permit.htm

Some municipalities take months to process applications. This is an illegal process
which as been propagated due to the lack of people challenging the system. If you don't
want to wait months for your permit, you don't have to. Take your municipality to court
and demand your application be processed according to State statutes. Here are some
typical excuses given out when police departments processing times go beyond the
STATUTORILY mandatory 30 days:
(taken from pg. 105 of "Nappen on NJ Gun Laws"):

1. "Your Prints haven't come back from the FBI"
2. "Your references haven't replied yet"
3. "The investigation is still in progress"
4. "The chief has been out (sick, busy, etc.)
5. "We just don't have the manpower to devote to these things"
6. "We have priorities that take precedence over gun permits."
7. "We are working on a new form of questions"
8. "We just switched persons (departments, offices, record keeping
personnel, etc.) who handle these.
9. "Why does a woman (black man, senior citizen, handicapped person, nice
person like you, etc.) need a gun anyway?"
10. "We don't just give anybody gun permits"

6. Remember, there is no substitute for a qualified attorney. There are qualified
attorneys listed on the njguns.com page should you need one.

There is something fundamentally screwed up about a system under which a law-abiding, mentally sound individual with a squeaky clean record may have to get a LAWYER in order to simply purchase a common firearm, IMO. If you think a system such as yours would fly nationwide, you have quite an insulated view.

[brentspeak]

300. Nice propaganda site you linked to there

Locate a single instance of a NJ police dept. asking any kind of question similar to "Why does a woman (black man, senior citizen, handicapped person, nice person like you, etc.) need a gun anyway?" Locate a single instance of any NJ citizen being denied a handgun permit due to discrimination.

And, as usual, you don't know what you're talking about: NJ's firearms death rate per 100,000 is 5.3, while NH's is 5.0 and Minnesota's is 7.0. Florida's, by the way, is 10.5. (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=113&cat=2)

While I do expect honest responses to come from the non-gun-nut gun owners, I don't expect honest responses to come from the pro-gun lobby.

[benEzra]

321. Per the FBI, Florida's murder rate in 2005 was 5.0/100K, NJ's was 4.8 per 100K.

And, as usual, you don't know what you're talking about: NJ's firearms death rate per 100,000 is 5.3, while NH's is 5.0 and Minnesota's is 7.0. Florida's, by the way, is 10.5. (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=113&cat=2)

Per the FBI, Florida's overall murder rate in 2005 was 5.0/100K, NJ's was 4.8 per 100K, NH's was 1.5/100K, MN's was 2.2/100K. Your link wasn't to the murder rate, and doesn't tell how they cooked the books to get those numbers, but it flatly contradicts the FBI data.

Here are the real FBI murder data, to which I referred:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_04.html

FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2006
Table 4, Crime in the United States by Region, Geographic Division, and State, 2005-2006

State...................Murder Rate 2005..............Murder Rate 2006
Florida......................5.0............................6.2
Minnesota....................2.2............................2.4
New Hampshire................1.5............................1.0
New Jersey...................4.8............................4.9

Now look at Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html

Only 25% of New Hampshire murders involved firearms; 67.5% of New Jersey murders involved firearms. So New Hampshire's gun murder rate is 0.38/100K; New Jersey's is 3.3/100K, which over EIGHT TIMES the rate in "gun loving" New Hampshire. And New Jersey's gun murder rate alone is higher than the TOTAL murder rate in gun-loving Minnesota.

Like I said, New Jersey's murder rate is comparable to Florida's, even with Florida's uptick in '06 (and Florida has a considerably higher population, has Miami, AND is one of the major national hubs for drug traffickers), and NJ's gun murder rate is FAR higher than that of gun-loving Minnesota or New Hampshire.

I would suggest looking up the data in primary sources before allowing yourself to be spun so easily.

Locate a single instance of a NJ police dept. asking any kind of question similar to "Why does a woman (black man, senior citizen, handicapped person, nice person like you, etc.) need a gun anyway?" Locate a single instance of any NJ citizen being denied a handgun permit due to discrimination.

I've heard stories from NJ gun owners firsthand, for years (applications illegally ignored for months, "Why in the world do you need a ____?", ad nauseaum). Yes, if an officer personally dislikes gun ownership, they can, and do, stall or intimidate the applicant.

BTW, that page was a guide for NJ gun owners to help them navigate the Byzantine process of legally buying a gun in NJ, not a "propaganda" page for fence-sitters. It included relevant statutes so that you can cite chapter and verse to an official trying to give you the runaround.

The widespread failure to acknowledge, much less address, the fact that illegal (>30 day) delays and petty harassment DO occur under NJ's system is one reason why NJ is pretty much the only state in the nation with such a policy, IMO.

While I do expect honest responses to come from the non-gun-nut gun owners, I don't expect honest responses to come from the pro-gun lobby.

You got an honest response; I linked to the FBI murder data, which is precisely what I said it was. And I am not connected in any way to the "gun lobby" except as a gun owner and on-again, off-again NRA member; I work in the aviation industry, FWIW.

My response was both honest and civil, unlike yours (on both counts). So do I get an apology from you, or just more insults?

[brentspeak]

325. Florida...

In your initial post, you stated that Florida's gun murder rate was 5.0/100K. Then you repeated that stat in your followup post, but somehow left out the crucial word "gun". And, of course, you would have to leave out the word "gun" because Florida no longer reports its gun homicide figures. Any comparison between NJ and Florida in regards to gun homicides is therefore meaningless, because the relevant Florida statistics are unavailable (Florida only reports percentage of deaths attributable from firearms, stats available from my earlier link).

You're attempting a sleight-of-hand, shell-game argument, citing New Hampshire and Minnesota gun stats while slyly mixing in-and-out of the paragraph general Florida murder stats as if it actually supports your argument concerning gun homicides.

Another example of your misleading use of statistics: "And New Jersey's gun murder rate alone is higher than the TOTAL murder rate in gun-loving Minnesota."

And that means...what??? From your own links, Minnesota's gun murder rate in 2006 was 64%. But, as you yourself point out, Minnesota's total murder rate was 2.4%.

You were saying something about "cooking the books"?

:eyes:

[benEzra]

327. You are correct that we have no data on Florida's gun vs. non-gun breakdown...

In your initial post, you stated that Florida's gun murder rate was 5.0/100K. Then you repeated that stat in your followup post, but somehow left out the crucial word "gun". And, of course, you would have to leave out the word "gun" because Florida no longer reports its gun homicide figures. Any comparison between NJ and Florida in regards to gun homicides is therefore meaningless, because the relevant Florida statistics are unavailable (Florida only reports percentage of deaths attributable from firearms, stats available from my earlier link).

You are correct that we have no data on Florida's gun vs. non-gun breakdown. That was a slip of the keyboard, as I was intending to compare NJ's and FL's overall murder rates (which we have data for) and NJ and NH/MN's gun murder rates (which we also have data for); two separate comparisons. I initially had it correct and then edited the wording, and the thoughts got conflated (that's what I get for editing without fully proofing).

The comparisons I attempted to make were (1) in 2005, FL's and NJ's overall murder rates were almost identical (FL gained some in '06, but they are still close), and (2) NJ's gun murder rate per 100,000 residents is considerably higher than the rates in Minnesota or New Hampshire.

Here is the table of total murder rates again, edited for clarity:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_04.html

FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2006
Table 4, Crime in the United States by Region, Geographic Division, and State, 2005-2006

State...................Murder Rate 2005..............Murder Rate 2006
Florida............5.0 murders per 100K...............6.2 murders per 100K
Minnesota..........2.2 murders per 100K...............2.4 murders per 100K
New Hampshire......1.5 murders per 100K...............1.0 murders per 100K
New Jersey.........4.8 murders per 100K...............4.9 murders per 100K

"Murders per 100K", of course, is the number of murders per 100,000 residents.

Another example of your misleading use of statistics: "And New Jersey's gun murder rate alone is higher than the TOTAL murder rate in gun-loving Minnesota."

And that means...what??? From your own links, Minnesota's gun murder rate in 2006 was 64%. But, as you yourself point out, Minnesota's total murder rate was 2.4%.

No, I am correct on that one; you appear to be misunderstanding what "2.4" is. It is not 2.4%, it is 2.4 murders per 100,000 population, compared to the New Jersey rate of 4.9 murders per 100,000 population.

To restate my point using the 2006 FBI numbers, the total murder rate in NJ in 2006, per the FBI, was 4.9 murders per 100,000 residents; the total murder rate in MN in 2006 was 2.4 murders per 100,000 residents. That is all weapons combined.

From the FBI UCR Table 20, we find that 64.1% of murders in Minnesota were committed with firearms, as were 67.5% of murders in New Jersey and 25% of murders in New Hampshire. That means that the gun murder rates per 100,000 in 2006 were:

NJ: 4.9 murders per 100,000 residents * 67.5% committed with guns = 3.31 gun murders per 100,000 residents
MN: 2.4 murders per 100,000 residents * 64.1% committed with guns = 1.54 gun murders per 100,000 residents
NH: 1.0 murders per 100,000 residents * 25.0% committed with guns = 0.25 gun murders per 100,000 residents

As I stated, not only is NJ's overall murder rate twice that of Minnesota (4.9/100K vs 2.4/100K), but NJ's gun murder rate alone (3.31/100K) is considerably more than the overall rate in Minnesota (2.4/100K). It is also notable that the gun murder rate in NJ is twice the rate in Minnesota.

Do the math yourself.

I had originally used the 2005 data because I had cited 2005 data for Florida, even though the 2006 data is even more favorable for New Hampshire vs. NJ than the 2005 data are.

You were saying something about "cooking the books"?

Look again at the numbers your link provided, and compare them to the FBI data. Compare NJ and Ohio; Ohio's murder rate/100K is LOWER than that of New Jersey, the percentage of murders using guns is similar (67.5% NJ, 68.5% OH), yet the table shows a "gun death rate" for OH supposely twice that of NJ. That looks like clever statistical editing, unless the numbers are out of date. Personally, I suspect inconsistent IDC-10 code reporting between states with regard to suicide, but that is totally conjecture.

[Endangered Specie]

What would an interview do? you think hes going to say "Im gonna kill children

when I get this gun" to the police?

[brentspeak]

78. The cops interview neighbors and family members

To make sure the prospective permit applicant isn't a nutcase or hiding something that wouldn't show up on a computer background check.

[slackmaster]

81. And nobody is better qualified than the police to determine if someone is mentally ill or lying

:eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

160. What if you don't have any neighbors or family members?

or what if your neighbors hate your guts or will say your a nutjob because they wouldn't want someone next door excersizing a Supreme Court confirmed invidiual constitutional right.

Some would point out how other governments use neighbors to glean 'mental health' information from people with not so pleasent results.

[slackmaster]

166. Then you are a "moody loaner" and obviously unqualified to own a gun

:sarcasm:

[brentspeak]

301. It doesn't work that way

Background checking process is double-checked by the state police. There's very little controversy over permit-granting in all the years it's taken place in the state.

[Endangered Specie]

319. From your stance perhaps...

maybe people are just complacent and don't know about it... such as with N.C pistol purchase permit system, may sound like a good idea, but its a Jim Crow era law!

[benEzra]

289. And I'm *sure* that that process is fully funded and a high priority for the police...

not. What's it to them? They can just let your application sit for months instead...

[brentspeak]

302. Maybe you're right -- getting shot to death by a deranged gunman

who obtained his gun without any problem from a pawn shop is infinitely preferable to waiting for an application to clear. Much better to have one's head blown-off because some zealot is concerned about the gun-owning rights of insane people and criminals.

[benEzra]

322. "Insane people and criminals" are ineligible to possess a firearm in ANY state under Federal law...

and any purchase at a pawn shop requires a Federal background check, Federally recognized ID, and BATFE Form 4473 just like purchase from any other gun store. I've done it. Have you?

FWIW, if states are not reporting criminal convictions and mental health adjudications to NICS, that is because they are not following EXISTING law and need to be held accountable for it.

What you are attempting to do, though, is to use violence by criminals and the insane as an excuse to revoke the gun rights of the NON-criminal and NON-insane. That is where we differ.

[slackmaster]

70. I'd prefer to decide for myself whether or not I need a gun

I don't like the idea of allowing cops or anyone else to make arbitrary, subjective decisions.

[NickB79]

94. What would the cops ask that wouldn't be covered by a computerized background check?

Are you a felon? Already asked on the background check.

Have you ever been institutionalized for mental illnesses? Also on the background check.

About the only thing the cops could ask him not on the computerized check is what he wanted to use the gun for. And since it's a shotgun (the most common hunting firearm in the US), all he had to say was "hunting" and viola, free to buy a gun.

[kwolf68]

57. This is WHY I support gun rights

I don't hunt (in fact hate it)...but I support the right to have guns. I have guns. I was going to sell them all off to buy a brand new drum set, but I think Ill keep a couple around just for safe keeping.

My dad taught me how to use them and be safe with them. I am a Liberal and if some fooktard decides I need to be slaughtered simply because of that reason then I want to be on equal turf with him.

I am in shock over this crime. People being killed simply because of their viewpoints? GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

[OnionPatch]

330. The RW is so convinced that we all hate guns

But I think they'd be surprised at how many of us feel like you do. Someday they're going to pick on the wrong liberal. Actually, the liberals took this guy out pretty quick without a gun. Good for them! Still, I have relatives that attend a UU church not far from that one. They consider it their "sister" church. And they said they will be "packing" next Sunday. Too bad it's come to this, but I feel a little less worried knowing they could fight back should this happen in their church.

[Barrett808]

63. US church killer 'hated liberals'

Source: BBC

A man accused of shooting dead two people in a Tennessee church was motivated by hatred of liberals and anger at being jobless, US police say.

Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen said they had found a letter in Jim Adkisson's car in which he described his feelings.

There were about 200 people in the church, which is known for its liberal stance, at the time of Sunday's attack. Mr Adkisson, 58, has been charged with first-degree murder.

Children were putting on a play at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church when a gunman entered with a 12-gauge shotgun and opened fire on the congregation.

People dived for cover under pews but several adults were hit, two of them fatally, before a group managed to overpower Mr Adkisson.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7529450.stm

[Politicub]

64. This is terrorism

And if this shooter isn't considered a terrorist, then the word has no meaning.

[Taverner]

65. Note the downplay of 'hated liberals' in the American Press

Only the Beeb is reporting the truth

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

66. Isn't propoganda grand?

Here is a guy, your average disgruntled white guy, out of work and he goes shooting the people who give him the best chance for a job and some security.

Through the looking glass, Alice.

[GeorgeGist]

148. Kinda reminds me of the ...

judeo-christians who came unvited to the New World and killed their hosts; as if it was their manifest destiny.

[Captain Angry]

67. I hate conservatives and have anger at being jobless.

But I'm not going to run amok.

This guy had serious problems.

[codjh9]

77. Exactly. THAT's the difference. I hate fundamentalists with a passion (they

stole and brainwashed one of my brothers, just for starters) - but I'm not shooting anyone, am I?

[Ian David]

87. You see, I can cheer the fact that Novak has a brain tumor. But I would never shoot him in the head.

Because if Novak were sneaking into my window to suck my blood, only a stake through the heart would stop him, anyway.

[heliarc]

72. Terrorist. nt

[Endangered Specie]

68. Fry the motherfucker

slowly.

[codjh9]

76. Amen, brother!

[Ian David]

88. No, the guy did this because he hated gays. Put him in prison where he'll be anally raped.

Make the punishment fit the crime.

[dysfunctional press]

91. and don't wet the sponge...

ala 'the green mile'...

[NashVegas]

69. Let Us Thank Brother Rush and His Choir For Giving This Poor, Messed Up Man Something to Focus

His anger on and attack.

[underpants]

86. Hate Crime Investigation After Cops Say Church Shooting Suspect 'Hated' Gays, Liberals

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392081,00.html

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. — Authorities on Monday said the man charged with murder in a Tennessee church shooting left a four-page letter that detailed his frustration at being unemployed, his hatred of gays and liberals, and his expectation that he would be killed by responding police.


"It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that, and his stated hatred for the liberal movement,” Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen IV said at a press conference Monday.

No children were harmed. Members said they dove under pews or ran from the building when the shooting started.



"He did express that frustration that the liberal movement was getting more jobs," Owen said.

[dysfunctional press]

92. why do they say "hated" in the past-tense...is he over it now?

:shrug:

[Ian David]

96. Maybe he got it out of his system? n/t

[wordpix]

333. pro-church, anti-liberal Fox must be conflicted

[Ian David]

93. Same guy?

[The Stranger]

97. This is the first shot in the next U.S. civil war -- this time over "values" and the growing schism.

A firebell in the night.

[Posteritatis]

149. I'm sure it's at least the ninth shot or so. (nt)

[Doctor_J]

310. We don't seem to have an approach that will work

We can't really start shooting back, but the remnants of the Criminal Justice System in the US are slanted severely toward the right-wingers. Weiner, Limpballs, Coulter, and Malkin will go on spewing hate and inciting violence with impunity. I am open to suggestions on what to do

:shrug:

[underpants]

100. Hate Crime Investigation After Cops Say Church Shooting Suspect 'Hated' Gays, Liberals

Source: Fox News

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. — Authorities on Monday said the man charged with murder in a Tennessee church shooting left a four-page letter that detailed his frustration at being unemployed, his hatred of gays and liberals, and his expectation that he would be killed by responding police.


"It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that, and his stated hatred for the liberal movement,” Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen IV said at a press conference Monday.

No children were harmed. Members said they dove under pews or ran from the building when the shooting started.



"He did express that frustration that the liberal movement was getting more jobs," Owen said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392081,00.html

---

[JackBeck]

101. Does TN have hate crimes laws that protect the LGBT community? n/t

[YOY]

102. He looks unhinged

Probably in shock after the horror he committed.

[kirby]

109. Which one?

Good thing he 'only' had a a shotgun and not a more rapidly firing weapon. Apparently, he was tackle while reloading.

[benEzra]

290. An autoloading shotgun fires as fast as any other civilian-legal weapon

i.e., fires once per trigger pull, unless he got Federal authorization to possess a NFA Title 2/Class III machinegun, which he couldn't have afforded anyway.

AFAIK he wasn't reloading when tackled; I think he was tackled as he was shooting. One of the church members blocked a blast with his body to save others, I think, and the shooter was tackled from all sides, but details are still a bit sketchy.

[kirby]

297. Are you confusing speed vs capacity?

An 'autoloading' shotgun might hold 4 shells max. A semi-auto pistol could hold 15 or 20 rounds. That seems like a big different to me in the resulting speed/rate of fire.

It is a developing story, but the one I read earlier said when he stopped to reload, he was tackled by other church members.

[benEzra]

317. You said "a more rapidly firing weapon," not a "higher capacity weapon."

A full-size 9mm generally holds 15 to 17 rounds in the magazine; a larger caliber handgun would hold less (13-15 for a .40, 7 to 12 for most .45's, off the top of my head). A shotgun with a full-length tube (not a reduced capacity hunting tube), generally 7 or 8, assuming ordinary 2 3/4" shells and not "shorties".

Thing is, a 12-gauge loaded with 2 3/4" 000 buckshot holds eight 9mm projectiles IN EACH SHELL. Meaning, a shotgun with a 7-round tube can fire 56 to 63 9mm projectiles into a crowd without a reload, and with only seven pulls of the trigger. To put that much lead downrange, the pistol would have to be reloaded three times, and would require 60-ish trigger pulls. With 00 buckshot, you are looking at ~12 .33 caliber projectiles per shell; with No. 4 buckshot, 25 to 30 .24 caliber projectiles per shell, if I remember correctly.

With a shotgun, you can also "shoot one, reload one," so that the magazine never gets close to empty; the Trolley Square Mall shooter did that (his weapon was a pump shotgun with a very low magazine capacity, I believe 2 shells + 1 in the chamber but I may be wrong) and kept up a sustained fire until he was pinned down by an off-duty police officer with a concealed handgun who happened to be eating with his wife in the food court.

It is possible he was tackled while reloading, particularly if he wasn't using speedloaders or ran the shotgun empty. Initial reports I saw didn't suggest that, but details were sketchy early on so that is understandable.

Kudos to the congregation for being proactive, though. The murderer reportedly had 76 shells in his bag and intended to use them all, but the congregation didn't cooperate with that plan.

[yardwork]

103. He thought that "the liberal movement" was getting more jobs?

He hated liberals because his food stamps were cut and he couldn't find a job? Just another right-winger whose chickens came home to roost, and instead of blaming the politicians he'd voted into office for the state of things, he decided to shoot a lot of kind people at church one Sunday morning.

[blue52power]

106. He obviously hated Christians too

He picked a church to go into and delve out his crimes of hatred.

Sickening. I wonder if this guy had a criminal past and was allowed to own a gun?

[yardwork]

115. No, he chose that church precisely because they're liberal and many UU are not Christian.

He knew all about this particular church. His former wife was a longtime member. He didn't target Christians. He targeted liberals.

[blue52power]

129. I think he targeted gays, liberals and christians

He didn't have to kill Christians. He decided to kill them as well. He could have gone to a gay bar, he could have gone to a liberal political group or anti war protest group.

He chose to go specifically to a church, which also supported liberals and gays.

[yardwork]

131. Many members of this church are probably not Christians.

The Unitarian Universalist church is not a specifically "Christian" church. It's members include atheists, agnostics, pagans, Jews, and people of many other spiritual paths. The killer knew this because his ex-wife used to belong to this particular church.

I agree that this man obviously hates "real" Christians, that is Christians who follow Christ's word.

[blue52power]

135. On second thought I agree with you

Unitarian Universalist...I didn't even see that. They do have some non denominational Christians and believers in an unknown supreme being, but being a UU...I'd concede the point that Christians were likely not the target.

My bad.

One sick and disgusting dude.

[yardwork]

140. Not that it makes it any worse or any better.

Dead is dead, and murdering is murdering.

The reason I've been making kind of a big deal out of this is that the media is generally careful to hide a very real trend that is happening in this country right now. Extreme right-wingers are going on shooting rampages. With some regularity. Right here at home in the U.S.A.

This does not match the usual drivel about "war on Christmas" and "left-wing loonies" that the corporate-owned media puts out. They'd like us to believe that all these mass murders are the work of crazed Christian haters and lefties. The fact is that these mass murders are not particularly random, and they are the work of loonies, but the loonies are almost all right-wingers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

132. By that reasoning he could also have gone to the nearest

Billy Bob church - which would certainly be more convenient than hunting down a UU church since they outnumber UU by 100 to 1.

Is there any church other than UU which welcomes atheists WITHOUT the intent on 'converting' them?

Christians were NOT his target.

[benEzra]

291. He reportedly held a gun to his (ex) wife's head at one point...

but either the authorities didn't prosecute, or the wife refuse to press charges. That would have disqualified him for life from owning a gun under Federal law.

[Doctor_J]

311. He targeted the UU chruchbecause it was full of liberals

and recently had on their sign "welcome gay brothers and sisters". If he wanted to kill Chistians a Baptist church would have been a much better choice.

:eyes:

[raccoon]

107. Unfortunately, that's the way most of those fuckers think (if I may use that verb).

"instead of blaming the politicians he'd voted into office for the state of things,'

Instead of that they blame "lib'ruls," immigrants, gays, minorities, for all social ills. :shrug:

[frogcycle]

122. they're bitter

[Lydia Leftcoast]

293. When people are mean and ignorant, nothing is too far-fetched

Back during the Reagan recession, when I was working temp, I encountered two guys who told me that Minneapolis had 11% unemployment because "all the Jews were taking the jobs."

I asked him who had told him that.

He assured me that "everyone knows it's a fact."

I happened to know that Minneapolis was approximately 4% Jewish, so I asked him how 4% of the population could cause 11% unemployment.

This math was obviously beyond him, because he said, "They give the jobs to their children."

I gave up at that point. How could I argue with that much idiocy?

[SacredCow]

104. Psycho with a capital PSYCH....

I can think of a lot of other things the congregation should have done to him, in lieu of just holding him down.... :mad:

[enki23]

113. doesn't appear to be psychotic at all, actually

crazy, i suppose, by definition. sure. and maybe you could consider his beliefs to be a kind of delusion, but those particular delusions didn't originate in his own twisted brain. those delusions are shared by millions of americans. they are espoused, and encouraged all over the public airwaves, in print media, in vile tracts handed out at gun shows, by angry preachers shouting their messages of irrational hatred in old post offices, and in giant megaplexes. they're pushed by talking heads on massively popular cable news networks, on hundreds if not thousands of radio stations, in bestselling books, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every week of every goddamned year.

oh, and to put the final nail in irony's coffin, many of their most recent efforts focus on comparing their enemies to nazis and fascists.

[SacredCow]

117. The recipient of his rage doesn't make sense, though....

if it was really all about him hating homosexuals and liberals. Yeah, the Unitarian church has embraced the gay community and the congregation tends to draw more progressive thinkers, but if (and this is a BIG effing if) he was working with a full deck he would have probably picked another venue for his rampage.

I'm seeing some other reports that this guy has often gone on record that he hated Christianity, too, which doesn't jive with the right wing too much, as it's mostly the right wing neo-cons that claim Christianity is under attack by liberals and homosexuals.

This fella is confused and muddled in the head.

[enki23]

127. why would he have picked a different venue?

it was a pretty rational choice of venue, given his particular set of hatreds.

i haven't heard of any reports of actual psychotic behavior in his past. yes, people who shoot up churches could be considered not sane by definition, but under the right circumstances a pretty damned large portion of the population would be willing to take part in similar atrocities. "psychotic," on the other hand, means something specific, and very different. i haven't heard any reports of him suffering hallucinations, delusions, particulary disordered thinking, marked lack of insight, or the like. maybe he did, but we have yet to hear of it.

he may, alternately, be psychopathic, which is likely far more accurate. but that term is usually reserved for a particular set of chronic behavior problems. again, you can simply define shooting up a church as a psychopathic act by definition, but then labelling him psychopathic doesn't really serve any descriptive purpose when we already know that he shot up a church. not that i'm opposed to calling a spade a spade in that sense, really. it just doesn't really mean much more than calling him an "asshole" if you use the word in that way.

in any case, "psychopathic" doesn't make for a criminal defense, whereas "psychotic" might.

[SacredCow]

128. I see your point with regard to the venue...

... though I somehow don't think that rationality and logical thought were this fella's strong suit.

as for sane vs insane- I wasn't making a psychological evaluation of the guy- I was just using the terminology. I fear that you are taking my comment way too literally. It would be like someone saying (and indeed it's been said) that dubya is a "pathological liar." Granted, he lies about a lot (perhaps everything that comes out of his mouth, even), but his lies serve his needs at the particular moment he utters them, whereas a pathological liar's lies will often not serve any particular interest.

But I respectfully disagree that a "pretty damned large portion of the population would be willing to take part in such atrocities." Thankfully, I think that number is pretty small- otherwise we'd be seeing a LOT more of scenarios such as this. I'm deep in the bowels of a Southern red state and I daily encounter plenty of people who hate homosexuals as much as Fred Phelps, yet they are in NO way murderous or even violent. Vile, ignorant, and hateful- absolutely. But would no more kill another person like this than I would.

[yardwork]

133. They might not kill gays with their own hands but they elect people who pass laws that kill.

To me, there is not much separation between a person who continues to support the murderous Bush regime and somebody who goes out and kills with their own hands. One of them is just letting other people do the killing.

[SacredCow]

136. Agreed...

Really, out and out murder is only one possible result.

[Doctor_J]

312. I don't know. If while he was killing, he heard Malkin's voice in his head

telling him that these people were liberals and should therefore be killed, that would make him psychotic.

[notadmblnd]

105. he's a terrorist and should be charged as such

then shipped down to Gitmo.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. They won't send him to gitmo they'll execute him.

[Hayduke Lives]

112. I strongly disagree

Terror laws are all bad. Terrorism is a sloppy, meaningless word. The word is intended to short-circuit public criticism and increase government power. However, there are hate crimes statutes that should certainly apply in this case. Not to mention that murder is still against the law, I believe, even in Tennessee.

I would love to see the state prosecute this guy for hate crimes to raise awareness that the language spewing from Hate Radio is having effect.

By the way, I'm an active member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation. This act, in the heart of the Bible Belt, should come as no surprise to anyone given the current level of discourse and venom/fear/hatred coming from the Right. The UU church is contrary to everything the modern American Right stands for.

[Delphinus]

114. Oh, what a beautiful

and quite appropriate statement:
The UU church is contrary to everything the modern American Right stands for.

Belated welcome.

[yardwork]

116. That's absolutely true. Thank you for saying that.

[superconnected]

158. I agree except one thing..."modern" is not a way I'd describe the right.

even though you mean todays republicans, there's nothing modern about them.

[DUlover2909]

108. So that's where Bob Boudelang has been, Tennessee.

That guy is probably one of the idiots on Youtube that tries to slam Cenk Uygur but can't spell or put a sentence together.

[underpants]

120. That's exactly what I thought

oh Bob!!!

[NRaleighLiberal]

111. Obviously a proud graduate of the Rush Hannity school of Hatred. NT

[underpants]

121. New level of LOSER

expects to get killed by the cops...FAILED at that too

[Enthusiast]

124. Yes, if one believed what

These radio hate mongers spewed, killing Liberals would be a natural next step.

[dysfunctional press]

118. "hated"? well- it's good to see that he's gotten past it...otherwise they'd say "hates"...

maybe it was a cathartic thing for him- the shooting and killing and all.

[navarth]

119. yay for America!

where everybody can have a gun!

[klyon]

123. I wonder if he listens to right wing talk radio........hmmm

he is unemployed
at least he gets free room and board

[MidwestTransplant]

125. Just following the will of Hannity, Limpballs and RW Preachers who preach that Liberals are trying

destroy the country...."their" country.

[Lisa]

126. a friend who's a UU lay minister in Virginia reported vandalism at their church a while back

They had a big banner out front in support of gay rights, and someone set fire to it. Twice. Then there was an incident where a pile of leaves on the church lawn was spread out into the shape of a cross, and set ablaze. My friend is African-American, and this naturally brought back some very unpleasant memories for him.

I don't know whether he knew any of the people in that Tennessee congregation, but I know that UUs everywhere will be very saddened by what happened this weekend, because they treat each other like family.

[Joanne98]

139. Conservatives think they have the God given right to do anything they want.

The UU needs to hook up with the austism parents and do something about hate radio.

[LiberalEsto]

130. His ex wife is a member of that church

He put a gun to her head once and threatened to kill her. I just posted this in LBN.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/woman-accused-shooter-hated-anyone-different-him/

[NBachers]

134. I think "No children were harmed" is wrong

These poor little kids, all dressed up and remembering their lines and songs and everything . . . suddenly a Limbaughist bursts in and starts murdering people with a shotgun in the middle of their church pageant . . . these poor innocent kids will be scarred for the rest of their lives over this.

This is were Republican hate media takes us.

[yardwork]

137. A little boy saw his mother shot in the head. She's in critical condition.

A sixteen year old saw his foster father shot to death right in front of him.

Anyone who says "no children were harmed" doesn't understand what happened.

[NeoConsSuck]

170. You got that right

a witness to violence is a victim of violence.

[benEzra]

292. One of those killed was the father of one of the kids in the play, I think.

THAT child was harmed for life, no matter what anyone says...

[kwolf68]

141. No laws against Rush

I support nothing to limit any speech, even that which can only run on the fuel of hatred. I am for no legislation; however, we have to expose the minions who lap up this vitriolic hate coming from the carnival barkers in the media. We need to have ‘news’ and ‘information’ that isn’t corporate controlled. Consolidation of the media is going – no is destroying – the shreds of Democracy we have left. Knowledge is the victim in the new America and when 80%+ of Fox News viewers actually believe Sadam Hussein was involved in the attacks on 9/11 it’s really not hard to then see these same viewers will get more complex issues totally backwards.

So you have an ignorant masses, however, they are also angry. This anger is fueled again by the same echo chamber that suggests executions should be promoted so as to intimidate Liberals. These people and their lackeys swallowing up the bilge spend countless hours fanning the flames of hatred for Libruls, almost to the point that said Liberals are beneath contempt, un-American, to be hated, stupid, brainwashed, and dangerous to the Conservative’s paradigm of the ‘correct way of life’. Pound hatred for a group of people into one’s head long enough and it’s not a far stretch to see how it can lead to violence. Many-a black man has hung from a tree, because the perpetrators of such horror considered black people inferior, dangerous, communist, anti-American, and beneath contempt.

These hateful motherfuckers have done nothing but traded in their Klan robes for suits and now instead of "Blacks" being the victim, they have a bunch of new people to hate, Liberals, which can include any one of blacks, women, environmentalists, gays, lesbians, teachers, professors, musicians, artists, socialists, homeless advocates, vets for peace, etc...basically a whose who of the same type of people Nazi Germany had ground up into soap.

[Love Bug]

142. I agree with you but there are laws against inciting people to violence

-- which is not protected speech -- and that's what should Limbaugh and his ilk should be prosecuted for. But we all know that won't happen because they are clever enough to stay just this side of calling for someone's actual death.

[yardwork]

143. Sometimes they don't, but even then it is ignored.

Ann Coulter suggested that a particular Supreme Court Justice should be poisoned. She should have been arrested for that, but nothing happened.

Pat Robertson routinely hopes that God will kill various people that Pat identifies by name, but nothing happens to him either.

Now, if someone dressed in pink stands up in front of Congress and protests the war in Iraq, they're going to get their ass hauled to jail.

[regnaD kciN]

150. A Modest Proposal

(First of all, I try to practice nonviolence, so don't really advocate any of this myself, any more than Jonathan Swift really recommended eating Irish babies. But, still...)

Yesterday's tragedy highlighted one enormous point: not only are there two opposing political camps in the U.S., but one of them feels it is justified to kill members of the other, wholesale.

Strangely, it's a one-way street. And the reason for this is obvious: the right-wing side holds "sanctified violence" as one of its guiding principles. If someone is your enemy, or stands for that which you think is wrong, they should be wiped off the face of the earth, just as the bad guy was always (justifiably) shot down by the sheriff in old Westerns. Violence, most especially including lethal violence, is an honored path to achieve their goals. On the left-wing side, that is not the case. Left-wing ethos, from its pacifist origins, rules out "sanctified violence." One may dislike one's opponents, or even hate them, but one cannot so dehumanize them and allow one's anger to reign that killing them becomes a legitimate option. It's an asymmetrical balance of forces -- they are justified in using lethal violence against us, but we're not justified in using it against them.

And maybe that needs to change.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that we adopt sanctified violence into our world-view the way they do. I don't propose, say, that any of us consider grabbing a shotgun and going off to kill congregants at the local religious-right megachurch, just "because they're there." But maybe it's a good idea for leftists to drop the dogma of pacifism, at least in the name of self-defense. Instead of looking down at "gun nuts" as hopelessly reactionary neanderthals, maybe we should each consider arming ourselves (and I do mean "each" -- as in every progressive should own his or her own firearm), learning how to shoot with cool, deadly accuracy, and being ready to respond any time a wingnut like the guy in Knoxville decides "Kill the liberals, this I know/for the Fox News tells me so." I can guarantee you that the progressive movement will become much more respected if, the next time some right-wing nutcase decides to act out his Rambo fantasies against a liberal stronghold, he barely gets his shotgun out of his guitar case before taking one between the eyes from a "pistol-packing progressive."

The Supreme Court recently ruled that the Second Amendment doesn't only apply to militias -- firearms are always justified in self-defense. Let's keep this in mind, and remember that even liberals should be allowed to defend themselves. Maybe our motto should become "We believe in peace, justice, and freedom, but fuck with us, and you will be the one who winds up dead." Now, what could be more American than that?

:sarcasm:

[superconnected]

155. Excellent post!

I'm still not going to own a gun but I get your point. That "sanctified violence" is sociopathic. We shouldn't shoot them but we should take their guns away because they aren't sane. It's a better idea then arming us. However I do support the right to bare arms for sane people. I think a shrink could tell if someone is sociopathic by asking a few questions and seeing the answer, like "How do you feel about arabs?", or "what do you think of gays." If they start getting hostile, then the shrink should evaluate whether their emotions are out of check in a belief in "sanctified violence to others", way. On the other hand, that may take care of most gun owners - at least the ones who feel they need to take their guns to church and everywhere else with them because defending their property isn't enough.

[DUlover2909]

168. I would rather see the guy get his kneecaps blown out and then go to prison.

[BreweryYardRat]

169. I disagree with you on that being a bad idea.

Being armed and putting in enough practice to make accurate shots is a perfectly good idea.

Do not be an unarmed little sheep. Right-wingers, like any bully, will usually back down in response to displays of force. Someone pops the next SS-wannabe as he's drawing his gun, that'll cut the likelihood of more hate crimes like this by a lot.

[benEzra]

182. The "guns are icky" mentality among some progressives is a fairly recent development, IMO

and is by no means universal (it is more an urban/rural thing, IMO).




BTW, recognize the name and photo on this concealed carry license?

(First of all, I try to practice nonviolence, so don't really advocate any of this myself, any more than Jonathan Swift really recommended eating Irish babies. But, still...)

To me, self-defense and nonviolence are not incompatible. Eschewing being the aggressor does not mean granting others the right to to anything they choose to you or your family without you resisting with appropriate force.

Strangely, it's a one-way street. And the reason for this is obvious: the right-wing side holds "sanctified violence" as one of its guiding principles. If someone is your enemy, or stands for that which you think is wrong, they should be wiped off the face of the earth, just as the bad guy was always (justifiably) shot down by the sheriff in old Westerns. Violence, most especially including lethal violence, is an honored path to achieve their goals. On the left-wing side, that is not the case. Left-wing ethos, from its pacifist origins, rules out "sanctified violence." One may dislike one's opponents, or even hate them, but one cannot so dehumanize them and allow one's anger to reign that killing them becomes a legitimate option. It's an asymmetrical balance of forces -- they are justified in using lethal violence against us, but we're not justified in using it against them.

You are justified in using violence in self-defense. You are not justified in aggressive violence. There is a huge difference, IMO.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that we adopt sanctified violence into our world-view the way they do. I don't propose, say, that any of us consider grabbing a shotgun and going off to kill congregants at the local religious-right megachurch, just "because they're there." But maybe it's a good idea for leftists to drop the dogma of pacifism, at least in the name of self-defense. Instead of looking down at "gun nuts" as hopelessly reactionary neanderthals, maybe we should each consider arming ourselves (and I do mean "each" -- as in every progressive should own his or her own firearm), learning how to shoot with cool, deadly accuracy, and being ready to respond any time a wingnut like the guy in Knoxville decides "Kill the liberals, this I know/for the Fox News tells me so." I can guarantee you that the progressive movement will become much more respected if, the next time some right-wing nutcase decides to act out his Rambo fantasies against a liberal stronghold, he barely gets his shotgun out of his guitar case before taking one between the eyes from a "pistol-packing progressive."

I agree. I think the example of the New Life Church shooting in Colorado (not a liberal church, but still) in which a parishioner with a carry permit and a personally owned Beretta 9mm shot and incapacitated a rifle-wielding would-be mass shooter, who then shot himself.

The Supreme Court recently ruled that the Second Amendment doesn't only apply to militias -- firearms are always justified in self-defense. Let's keep this in mind, and remember that even liberals should be allowed to defend themselves. Maybe our motto should become "We believe in peace, justice, and freedom, but fuck with us, and you will be the one who winds up dead." Now, what could be more American than that?

Agree.

Gun ownership isn't for everyone, but for those who are competent and levelheaded, I think becoming competent with a firearm, and knowledgeable about self-defense law, is a good thing. A gun is NOT a magic talisman, but in competent hands it can be a lifesaving tool, IMO.

[Sheltiemama]

162. I live in Knoxville.

One of the men who tackled the shooter was a history professor of mine at UT. He was a great teacher.

Though I work at the News Sentinel, I'm on vacation and was able to watch this unfold as a "civilian." I'm really proud of our coverage. Our Web site is linked to in the first post.

We've been watching the local TV news, which has has expanded coverage and has broken into regular programming. The last we heard, this evening, is that the shooter's ex-wife attended this church 10 years ago. It's not known if he attended with her.

This is so horribly sad. It's a wonderful church, known for being open and accepting. This community is in shock.

[yardwork]

173. I am impressed by the News Sentinel's reporting on this.

I firmly believe that a lot of news outlets would have covered up the 4-page letter that indicated the murderer's thoughts, and tried to pass this off as another "anti-Christian" story.

[Sheltiemama]

305. Thank you.

I'll pass that along.

I do have one correction to make to my previous post. The president of the church said that both the shooter and his ex-wife attended the church 10 years ago, though they were not members.

The churches in this area have responded as you would hope houses of worship would. Another church hosted a service and candlelight vigil tonight. A major Baptist church is hosting a service tomorrow.

Houses of worship line Kingston Pike. It's the major road through the west part of the county. All over town, actually, you can see where the population settled and moved over the past couple of centuries by following the churches as you drive along. We didn't think he picked the UU church at random.

[yardwork]

315. Thank you for that information.

I really think that if the News Sentinel and the Knoxville community had not reported this accurately, the rest of the country's media would have been glad to whitewash this as a "random killing."

[EFerrari]

183. . . .

:hug:

[Sheltiemama]

306. Thanks.

It's beyond strange to turn on CNN and see your own town leading the newscast for something like this.

I don't have children, but one of the first things I thought of was how traumatized those poor kids are going to be. It's going to be hard enough for the adults who were there. Our paper had a terrific graphic today showing what happened in the church. He walked right by a row of kids waiting for their cues to go onstage.

[Doctor_J]

314. Is the Sentinel emphasizing the anti-liberal hate-radio aspect of the crime?

IMO this is crucial, and will be swept under the rug or turned inside out

[Chovexani]

164. Rush and the Savage Weiner will give him a medal

[chat_noir]

184. Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list

Source: Knox News

Police found right-wing political books, brass knuckles, empty shotgun shell boxes and a handgun in the Powell home of a man who said he attacked a church in order to kill liberals "who are ruining the country," court records show.

snip

Adkisson told Still that "he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them in to office."

Adkisson told officers he left the house unlocked for them because "he expected to be killed during the assault."

Inside the house, officers found "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder" by radio talk show host Michael Savage, "Let Freedom Ring" by talk show host Sean Hannity, and "The O'Reilly Factor," by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly.

Read more: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/

[muntrv]

185. Shocking! I thought he would have books on peace and love!

:sarcasm:

[spotbird]

242. Liberal reading?

Nope.

This is what the authors of those books dream about.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

186. Their followers

can read?

I don't believe that for a minute ..................

[EvolveOrConvolve]

210. Not without moving their lips

Plus, the idiots who wrote the books did so at a 1st grade level so that their target audience could actually understand 50% of what was written.

[tanyev]

187. "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder"

Tragically ironic.

[Turbineguy]

188. Looks like they found

some deep pockets....

[TheCowsCameHome]

189. He must have hidden his Rush Limbaugh blow-up doll more carefully

at least they haven't found it yet, unless he broke it during sex.

[SteveM]

202. Probably because of all the "candy" inside it (nt)

[NeoConsSuck]

190. Was there anything in those books

that told the truth about how the pukes destroyed the economy?

When the Big Dawg left the WH, our nation had a budget surplus. The tick today just announced the next incoming president will have a half trillion deficit.

[panader0]

191. I don't think this guy's alone in his thinking.

[Frisbee]

193. Sometimes I'm not even sure...

...the guy's in the minority in his thinking. Scary.

[TroglodyteScholar]

213. I have a coworker...

...who is, in general, a good-natured and kind fellow. However, whenever conversation turns toward politics, he begins equating American liberals with 'socialists,' and making creepy statements like "death to socialists." He trains, hand-to-hand style, for what he says is the inevitable next American civil war. I wonder if this is how he wants his revolution to begin?

BTW, when I told him, "Eh, I'm a liberal...does that mean you think I'm ruining America, and need to die," he said, "Naaah, you're not a liberal--you're alright." I wonder how he plans to tell people like me apart from the EVIL SOCIALISTS when his war starts....

[checks-n-balances]

224. He's heard so much demonizing, he wouldn't recognize a true liberal

if one was staring him in the face!

He was expecting maybe a caricature - costumed in solid red with horns and a pitchfork?

[bulloney]

278. I hope he turns down his Social Security, only travels on toll roads and has his own infrastructure

such as sewage and water at home. God forbid if he benefits from any "liberal" programs.

[WatchWhatISay]

274. Sorry, that is not a good natured and kind fellow

He's nuts

[yardwork]

192. I hope that Savage, Hannity, and O'Reilly are proud of themselves.

[DFW]

204. The sickest part about all this is--they probably ARE proud of themselves!

[Ahpook]

254. Of course

The peasants killing off each other.

This country has lost it's way

On edit: I can't say that. Look at our history?

[bulloney]

282. They'll deny they could have influenced the gunman.

But, like Limbaugh, they'll take full credit for the 1994 elections in which the Republicans took control of the House and Senate for the first time in 40 years.

They want to believe that they can move masses of people, but deny that they may trip the trigger of some mentally unstable freeper who's looking for any type of encouragement to engage in terrorism from an "authority" figure.

[wordpix]

334. investigation should include 3 radioheads' hate propaganda & inciting to violence public statements

Take a serious look and hold them responsible, too!

[Ian David]

194. Some of the home addresses of those reich-wing talking heads are listed on the internets.

I'm just sayin'

[Wednesdays]

221. And who'd be fool enough to go within 400 yards of them?

You naive enough to think those guys aren't packin' any heat? And aren't nutty as hell?

I'm just sayin'

[ryanmuegge]

256. They're frauds, so I doubt they are, but I'm sure they've got security who can use weapons.

[Pavulon]

258. What are you saying?

please expound..

[barbtries]

195. and 20 bucks says

when they start his car the radio will be tuned to a hate station.

what are the so-called "pundits" who spew so much hatred and incite so much violence saying about this massacre?

[yardwork]

209. Well, yesterday they were assuming that the killer was some anti-Christian lefty

and the freepers were high-fiving one another because a couple of Unitarian Universalists died.

[barbtries]

219. that is despicable.

i don't cry for them when they die (russert, snow), but i don't celebrate either. and this was murder. i don't GET people.

[Iris]

259. yeah, right because that happens all the time.

What idiots. Besides, if you are anti-Christian, the last place you'd go for is a UU church.

[truth2power]

263. My thoughts, exactly. I was wondering if anyone would think to do that. n/t

[Flagg]

196. Won't be the first death those scumbags have had their hands in

[proud patriot]

197. What no Rush Limbaugh?

[proud patriot]

198. Boy Mike Malloy

needs to see this

[RamboLiberal]

205. I'm thinking What No Ann Coulter

but then they might find she was his pinup queen!

[proud patriot]

296. I must have been in my zen place

because she completely slipped my mind ..

Her John walker Lind quote is about killing liberals

[JonLP24]

199. Those guys are not nice guys at all

I'd imagine you'd very much be one agreeing with their garbage and offensive arguments. The lying is unbelievable I wish they would stop. I would hate whoever even if he was a left winger telling guests to 'Shut up' and for those that protested the war, they went very far to potray us as American haters, called unamerican, and the bully tactics. I wish Network news get worthy intelligent people to host shows. The only reason to watch him is to catch him saying something he should get fired over, they already have many reasons to. #1 the lying, then he goes and accusess someone else of lying and says "I lost all respect for you"

[JonLP24]

200. Those guys are not nice guys at all

I'd imagine you'd very much be one agreeing with their garbage and offensive arguments. The lying is unbelievable I wish they would stop. I would hate whoever even if he was a left winger telling guests to 'Shut up' and for those that protested the war, they went very far to potray us as American haters, called unamerican, and the bully tactics. I wish Network news get worthy intelligent people to host shows. The only reason to watch him is to catch him saying something he should get fired over, they already have many reasons to. #1 the lying, then he goes and accusess someone else of lying and says "I lost all respect for you"

[bluethruandthru]

201. I'm surprised we haven't seen alot more of this kind of thing.

The non-stop "liberals are satan, they're trying to corrupt your children, they want to give our country to the muslims, they're anti-Christian, etc., etc." should be seen for what it is...hate speech. Listen to any of these shows and substitute Blacks, Jews, Catholics, whatever...and they'd be off the air in seconds. But, the fact that they are given free rein to spew their hate about "liberals" or "Democrats" is okay.

[yardwork]

212. I think we have been seeing a lot of this kind of thing.

Check out the weekly Hate Watch at the Southern Poverty Law Center www.splcenter.org

Also, think about the domestic terrorism we've had lately in this country. A lot of the mass murderers are right-wingers.

Timothy McVeigh - white supremacist.
Erik Rudolph - bombed abortion clinics and the Atlanta Olympics, hid in the NC mountains for years protected by like-thinkers. White supremacist.
Northern Illinois University shooter - turned out to be a Nazi-loving white supremacist, raised Pentacostal.
Columbine murderers - white supremacists, admirers of Hitler, shot their classmates on Hitler's birthday.
Virginia Tech shooter - turned out to have extreme right-wing views, rambling website.
Texas Christian Church Youth Center murderer - extreme right-wing views, white supremacist, raised Pentacostal.

And look at all the U.S. troops raping, torturing, and murdering people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Iris]

261. I was thinking about Rudoph yesterday when I heard a report of a suicide bomber on the news

yesterday. The bombers set off one explosion to get people to go check it out and then blew the crowd up - just like Rudolph did at one of the abortion clinics.

btw - thanks for the link!

[Mopar151]

214. The thing of it is

That Hal Turner was sellin' the wackos he was stirrin' up to the FBI! He just quit, 'cuz he got found out...
And at least one prominent Klansman of the 90's was payin' the rent as a DEA paid informant.

[Ian David]

203. Is it possible that Perry Logan might be Jim David Adkisson?

[Psyop Samurai]

223. OMG... you didn't... lol...

:rofl:

Good catch! Duzy!

I couldn't swear that it isn't him, but I suspect that they have longer-range plans for Perry.

[Ian David]

226. I'm serious... COULD that REALLY be the same person? n/t

[Psyop Samurai]

232. I doubt it, but from the pictures, I wouldn't rule it out...

Egads, I just Googled him and went to his website. :puke:

ok, can anyone confirm the whereabouts of Perry?

btw, any of us who have been around the 9/11 truth movement for years knew Perry was an infiltrator from day one. We just don't say anything, since we're supposedly crazy, and who would take our word for it?

[Ian David]

243. Maybe Perry is the 1 who started the whole "explosives hidden in the towers" rumor in the 1st place?

To make people who question the administration look silly.

[Ian David]

245. Looks like "Perry Logan" is supposedly a "stage name"...

and his real name is Kirk Hampton?


See:

<snip>

Here's some background on this idiocy. Jeannon & some of the conspiracy bozos around Austin recently discovered that "Perry Logan" is a stage name. (It's not a secret identity--just a stage name. I've deliberately left clues to my true identity on this very website--pretty cool, huh?) To these puddenheads, that was some kind of malfeasance. Don't ask me why. They are totally paranoid & dumb as posts.

Jeannon & the other conspiracy bozos also decided the bookcase I use as a backdrop for my cable access show was a UT bookcase. It's a bookcase...so it has to be a UT bookcase. This is what passes for logic amongst these pathetic twits.

The wonderful bookcase is at my home, not at UT, & I'm willing to show it to Jeannon Kralj, if she will just butt out of my personal life.

Jeannon has probably figured out from PACT that my stagename is not a sinister plot. Producers at ACTV/PACT use stage names all the time. It's a way to avoid personal attacks...like Ms. Kralj's.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/1044/

[Psyop Samurai]

276. hmm... and who is Kirk Hampton?

I Googled around a bit and didn't come up with much... just muddy waters.

Perry's been around a while and has a substantial legend as a "liberal". Maybe Adkisson is his "right wing" clone.

:freak:

[HughBeaumont]

272. Oh fuckin' christ . . . yew HAD to bring that coffin dweller up . . .

Sheeeeeeeeeeesh . . .

Among his many gems:

"Progressives are as useless as tits on a boar."

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

206. It is past time...

For their crap to end. They have polluted the airwaves and bookshelves long enough and now their pollution has led directly to the deaths of innocents.

If the good people of this nation cannot mobilize on this direct link to these deaths, what can they mobilize upon?

Mark my words: more will die in a similar manner. There are many more Adkissons out there, and the dam has been breached.

[mudesi]

207. Hate speech leads to hate crime (nm)

[SpiralHawk]

208. Beware chickenhawk republicon demagogues

Their own deep-seated cowardice causes them to spew hate-filled propaganda in service to some mythical totalitarian Homeland, while despisting America and Americans.

[PittPoliSci]

211. he hasn't been paying too close attention to who's been ruinin' the country lately has he?

n/t

[msatty99]

216. Appealing to nuts

I am a little concerned because while surfing
"Youtube" i saw a rightwinger posting a video on
Obama that
briefly showed a photo of Obama in crosshairs of a riflescope.
This, while the narrator talked on and on
about how horrible it would be for him to become president. 

[PittPoliSci]

222. That is sick.

One would imagine that it will be deleted.

But when these hatemongers appeal to base anger, this is what we should expect.

[ryanmuegge]

265. Even though they control the White House, the Senate, and the judiciary, their

propagandists convince the followers that they are a minority.

[Bunkie0913]

215. Faux news

strikes again, still winning hearts and minds!

[jimshoes]

217. Will he get the death penalty

I wonder. He may get his wish to die at some future date.

[TheCowsCameHome]

241. I'll bet he wanted it for everyone else convicted of a crime.....

[jimshoes]

281. I have no doubt whatever

he was just that type.

[my2sense]

218. He can read?

You would think we'd see wall to wall coverage of this on MSM?????

[ThoughtCriminal]

220. How many of these RW powder kegs are we going to see

in the next few years? I anticipate a wave in 2009-2010.

[Ian David]

225. Adkisson is NOT the first

Timothy McVeigh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_McVay
Sokolowski http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2517509&mesg_id=2517509
Chad "The UnaFreeper" Castagana http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2891533&mesg_id=2891533
Eric Robert Rudolph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Olympic_Park_bombing
Jacob D. Robida http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=117969

And that's not counting the hundreds of "ordinary" gay-bashings and hate crimes that happen every day, thousands of them each year.

[BrklynLiberal]

260. and not to mention the physicians who performed abortions who were murdered..

and of course all the "right to life" people denied ever having supported the idea of killing anyone...:puke:

[lynettebro440]

227. So why can't they ban these ass hats

like they tried to do with Marilyn Manson. I can't believe shit like this. It's great on the repuke side but evil on the liberal side. People will never make any sense to me.

[Pavulon]

236. Really?

you want to ban someone for political speech. Even stupid political speech.

We have laws that cover murder, conspiracy, and incitement.

Lets leave the 1st alone.

[Psyop Samurai]

228. One of their sleepers went active...

...or was activated.

There are millions more.

Have a nice day.

[Psyop Samurai]

246. Oh, and by the way...

In case anyone hasn't noticed, there is a war against us, and it is very far advanced. Generally under such circumstances, people fight back, unless, of course, their minds have been altered in such a way as to preclude rational, self-interested response.

If we are not on the offense by now, if we haven't figured out that the only way to deal with bullies is to hit back twice as hard, then we might as well forget it -- our fate is already sealed. Playing defense will not work.

[Hyuke4]

229. Not Surprised.

If All the KKK and racist picked a party,it would be sure to be the Republican party and their supporters.
If you really check most of their talking points, it is not any different from what Hitler or the Nazis would agree with.

I would also bet my life that the haters main news channel is Fox news.
Fox news is poisoning America,It is A racist and Immoral Station, and reeks of White Supremacy.
I think they probably talk to their God too much.

Godz and Gunz,God bless America:evilgrin:

[AnnieBW]

230. If anything good can come of this shooting

This would be it.

[NBachers]

231. Let this be an Obama wake-up call

How many people think they'd be a wingnutter hero if they shot Obama dead? I'm very apprehensive of him making it all the way to inauguration. Please, please, we need adequate protection for Barack Obama and his family.

[AlinPA]

233. The scary part is that Bush**-Rove-Cheney control the SS.

[AlinPA]

234. The scary part is that Bush**-Rove-Cheney control the SS.

[MikeNearMcChord]

235. Nice to see Bill O'Reilly being hung by his own petard

Didn't he once imply that rap music was the cause of violence in urban America, and tried to ban NAS from doing a concert at Virginia Tech? Just like Rush once said Bill, Sean, Michael, Glenn and others. WORDS MEAN THINGS oh? that was meant for the left?

[nightrain]

237. and the FBI/CIA/Homeland Security/whoever knew about him? Oh, they didn't--

what good is all the wiretapping and such if this crap just goes undeterred?! Oh, that's right, we're more concerned with certain types of "terrorists".

More right-wing fanatics.

[Pavulon]

238. He put a gun to his ex wifes' head

that pretty much sums it up. We have no system for dealing with the mentally ill.

That does not mean he is not guilty or less responsible but it serves all of us for these people to have some recourse.

He should have been convicted of a felony and barred from firearm ownership, at minimum.

He should have had access or been encouraged to seek mental health in exchange for a reduced sentence.

[Stargleamer]

239. but Moveon.org is more hateful than the Klan!

[raccoon]

331. Did you forget the sarcasm thingie? nt

[shadowknows69]

240. Sleep well in your bloody beds assholes

[Bluebear]

244. What is this guy's FR name?

[gatorboy]

271. I was wondering that myself.

They're probably frantically looking for his posts to erase as we speak. I'm sure the guy posted somewhere.

[santamargarita]

247. O'Reilly, Savage and Hannity should be brought up for murder!

Prosecute these right-wing terrorists!

[Rocknrule]

253. I was saying they should be sued

and got flamed for it. I don't think we should circumvent the 1st Amendment or anything but we should at least call them on what they're doing and shine some light on the fact that it has dangerous effects on some people.

[L. Coyote]

269. See post #83 for an idea of what size pockets can be emptied!!

[LuckyTheDog]

248. Sadly, the guy probably will not be the last

It was only a matter of time. This guy will no doubt be seen as a hero in some corners of the far-right blogosphere.

[Ahpook]

249. As if this is a fucking surprise?

I really appreciate websites like DU more and more.

[BrklynLiberal]

250. How very sad that this alienated, long unemployed unhappy person attacked the very people who would

have helped him find what he needed, and saw as heroes those that helped create his situation, one in which he found himself with no alternatives for a decent life.

[Iris]

270. my thoughts exactly.

About to run out of food stamps? Why, yes, blame those evil liberals.

[benEzra]

284. Well said. (n/t)

[Swagman]

251. what ..no Ann Coulter books as well ?

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

252. Anybody checked Freeper.com to see their responses?

I wonder if they are trying to be apologists for this guy or something...?

[tanyev]

273. Quite a few of them complained that the "liberal media" of course

zeroed in on those specific books out of how many others the guy must have owned, some of them pointed out that Savage/O'Reilly/Hannity are not really very right wing (yeah, I know), and at least one of them totally doesn't get it and keeps wondering why a member of a UU church would even own a gun much less bring it with him to church. That was earlier this afternoon--I can't make myself go back in again.

[DissedByBush]

279. Checking...

Mainly mention of the psychos who had progressive reading materials like the Unabomber. Earth in the Balance was a big inspiration for his manifesto and the RW jumped on that one to demonize Al Gore.

Psychos are psychos, something will set them off, be it Planned Parenthood clinic bombers, abortion provider murderers, the Unabomber, etc.

[ThoughtCriminal]

286. Earth in the Balance was not on the UnaBombers reading list

And I do not think it was ever mentioned in his "Manifesto". Most of his attacks accured years before it was even published (starting in 1978). Not that any factual information would matter to a freep.

[DissedByBush]

323. The Unabomber had a "well-thumbed" copy of the book

Earth in the Balance published 1992, the manifesto in 1995.

The manifesto also specifically referenced Huxley's Brave New World (published 1932), so can we blame Huxley?

[magellan]

307. They were all full of self-pity (poor victimized Christians) and prayers

...until they learned it was a UU church and the guy shot the place up because he hates liberals. Then their sympathy pretty much went out the window and the excuses began...As anyone familiar with them would have predicted.

[yardwork]

338. Yes, that's exactly what happened over the past couple of days.

Very transparent of them.

[Initech]

255. And that asshole Savage says liberalism is a mental disorder.

:mad:

[D23MIURG23]

257. And yet Moveon and Daily Kos are the new KKK?

I wonder how Orally is is going to spin this one (or how the MSM will "balance" it).

[MessiahRp]

262. A video reminder...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x24300

Would have loved to post that today since it is sooooooo fitting but it was posted here in April.

Rp

[kestrel91316]

264. I bet he's a big fan of the lovely Ms. Coulter, too. She advocates killing us.

[CanonRay]

266. I wonder how much his "Pastor" egged him on?

I hope the cops check it out, anyway.

[dballance]

267. What? No Coulter or "Left Behind?"

Guess he must be a misogynist since there is no Ann Coulter in his reading list. I'm a bit surprised he doesn't have the "Left Behind" series though. Those were written by men. Of course, we won't treat this Christian fanatic the same way we treat Muslim fanatics. We won't start rounding up Christian Clerics who are directing their flock to do evil.

[L. Coyote]

268. Hate-mongers have been successfully sued before for inciting violence.

Morris Dees - In 2000 a jury awarded $6.3 million ...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1009028/bio

The Center has proved to be enormously effective in raising public awareness of the dangers of the extreme right-wing militia movement as well as the fanatical fundamentalist "Christian Identity" movement, both of which espouse religious and racial hatreds as part of their core beliefs. The Center was instrumental in bankrupting the Alabama Ku Klux Klan--after Alabama Klan members lynched a young black man in 1981, Dees and the SPLC initiated an historic lawsuit against the organization on behalf of the murder victim's mother, suing the Klan for inciting violence, and was awarded a $7-million judgment against the organization, something that had never happened before. In 1990 Dees and the SPLC won a $12.5-million judgment for the family of an Ethiopian man beaten to death by members of a white-supremacist skinhead group in Oregon. In 1998 he won a $37.8-million verdict against the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan for the torching of a black church in South Carolina, the largest civil award ever won for damages in a verdict. In 2000 a jury awarded $6.3 million to a woman and her son in a lawsuit initiated by Dees and the SPLC against the white-supremacist Aryan Nation organization and its "pastor", Richard Butler. Guards at Butler's Aryan Nation compound had chased down and fired at the woman and her son in 1998, and a jury found Butler to be negligent in not only allowing but encouraging his guards in that kind of behavior. The award effectively bankrupted the organization.

His victories against these fringe hate groups have come at a cost, however. There are regular death threats made against him and bomb threats made against the Center, and several members of a white-supremacist organization were arrested after authorities were tipped that they had formulated and were putting into motion a plan to assassinate Dees. ...

MORE: http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:zyAy025x7q4J:www.ziopedia.org/articles/jewry%2510lobby/morris_dees_and_the_splc:_agents_of_big_jewry/+Morris+Dees+SPLC+lawsuit&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[nam78_two]

275. I am shocked

:eyes:

[iamthebandfanman]

277. the MOST IRONIC part of this is ...

"Adkisson said he also was frustrated about not being able to obtain a job, Owen said."

and whos fault is that? not us liberals, thats for sure.
He killed liberals for a problem created by conservatives. classic delusional back wards conservative.

also, has this revelation been put on mainstream media outlets?

[nam78_two]

280. Yeah I was telling a (liberal) coworker today that he was worried about running out of food-stamps

And he widened his eyes and said "And so he was mad at liberals?". Then we both agreed that it was almost irrational to look for rationality in the ideas of a crazy RW gun-nut.

[Ian David]

309. I don't really pay attention to the Corporate Controlled Complicit Press. n/t

[Lint Head]

283. The republican mindset is to kill.

That is just how it is. Death or killing is the answer to every problem for re-pubic-Rats. Katrina? Death. Iraq? Death. Ignoring WTC warning? Death. No health insurance? Death. The economy? Death. The environment? death. The Constitution? Death. Suspected enemy combatants? Death after a kangaroo court.

To quote McDeath

"Bomb bomb bomb
Bomb bomb Iran
Ha ha!"

:dem:

[nikto]

287. A True Dittohead!!

This man epitomizes the KKKonservative movement.

His acts are secretly admired by millions of vile
rightwing, fanatical people who define "Red America"
and follow KKKoulter, Savage, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, etc etc.

Creating potential monsters like him IS THE MAIN FUNCTION of
KKKonservative Media brainwashing, for decades.

Mission accomplished!

When these people lose control, they actually do create
"red America"----Red with BLOOD, that is.

But to the RightWing Powers-That-Be, they can be useful, indeed.

[ThoughtCriminal]

288. This needs a kick for more recs

The other thread had 47 recs (and a better subject line IMHO) when the mods merged it with a thread with 6. Rec it back up to the top.

[Patriot_4_Peace]

298. Best way to help

Best way to help would lend your moral support to the church. In a time such as this letters of sympathy can go along way to helping those effected by this tragic event heal
http://www.tvuuc.org/index.html

[Snazzy]

299. Thou shalt not kill is like optional

edit. Deleted rant, screw it. Unclear whether guy a fundie athiest or just normal fundie.

[workinclasszero]

313. He's a right-wing terrorist NOT a "gunman"

This slimeball's murderous rage was fueled by haters like Limbaugh, Hannity, Colter, O'Reilly, etc.

How many school kids putting on a play in a church have to die or be traumatized for life before these damn right wing fascists, Goebbels children all, are taken off the air???

Betcha the murdering scum was a freeper as well!

[wordpix]

335. "He had been a member of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne"

I wonder which war(s) he saw. We are in for more of these crazed events after Bush's War is over, I'm afraid :cry:

[Lisa]

336. "Tomorrow" (from the musical "Annie" that the children were performing) is being sung at UU vigils

Some news from my UU friends in Virginia. They say that the song may become an unofficial UU hymn in the future.

There is not much that can be said about this sad situation that hasn't been mentioned upthread by other DUers, but I thought this might comfort people a bit, about how the congregation is coping -- and all the support that is being provided by others in the city.

From a notice sent around by one of the UU leaders, in the district to which the Knoxville and Westside churches belong.

"As the skies opened up with a torrential downpour of rain, people from TVUUC, Westside UU Fellowship, the new UU satellite congregation in Blount County, 2nd Presbyterian, people from synagogues, from mosques, from area Christian churches, and others from all over the Knoxville region scrambled to get in from every open door in this large church complex."

"Surprisingly to many of the non-UUs in the crowd, (UUA President William Sinkford's) recounting of a reporter's question about whether the man responsible for this tragedy would go to hell brought spontaneous laughter from the large UU contingent, a welcome break in the tension of the day. But (his) answer to the reporter's query returned the congregation to somberness as he said, "In my religious tradition, this man has already been living in hell here on earth."

"During the pre-service debriefing session held with the cast of the play being performed at the Sunday service, the members of the "Annie" cast asked for the opportunity for some closure to the months of work they had put into this performance. As Mitra finished her words, the cast stepped forward at front of the sanctuary and began singing the "Annie" theme song, Tomorrow. The congregation spontaneously joined in singing with them and after a few seconds, when the impact of this moment had sunk in, the crowd erupted into applause, tears, shouts, cheers, and many more tears. As the cast finished their grande finale, they took their long-awaited bows to an adoring, grief-stricken, and healing audience."


The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!
Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!
(Composer: Charles Strouse and Martin Charnin - From: Broadway Musical "Annie")

[Hugin]

337. Very nice.

:)