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(UK) Intelligence chief's bombshell: 'We *were* overruled on dossier'

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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:05 PM
Original message
(UK) Intelligence chief's bombshell: 'We *were* overruled on dossier'
Mods: Emphasis in original.

Intelligence chief's bombshell: 'We were overruled on dossier'
The Independent, 3 February 2004


The intelligence official whose revelations stunned the Hutton inquiry into the death of government scientist David Kelly has suggested that not a single defence intelligence expert backed Tony Blair's most contentious claims on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

As Mr Blair yesterday set up an inquiry into intelligence failures before the war, Brian Jones, the former leading expert on WMD in the Ministry of Defence, declared that Downing Street's dossier, a key plank in convincing the public of the case for war, was "misleading" about Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological capability.

Writing in today's Independent, Dr Jones, who was head of the nuclear, chemical and biological branch of the Defence Intelligence Staff until he retired last year, reveals that the experts failed in their efforts to have their views reflected.

Dr Jones says: "In my view, the expert intelligence analysts of the DIS were overruled in the preparation of the dossier back in September 2002, resulting in a presentation that was misleading about Iraq's capabilities."

He calls on the Prime Minister to publish the intelligence behind the Government's claims that Iraq was actively producing chemical weapons and could launch an attack within 45 minutes of an order to do so. He is "extremely doubtful" that anyone with chemical and biological weapons expertise had seen the raw intelligence reports and if they were made public, it would prove just how right he and his colleagues were to be concerned about the claims.

...

More:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=487557
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=487515 (Dr Brian Jones' op-ed)
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ruh-roh.....
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jbfam4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why didn't Dr. Jones
and the CIA come out about this information BEFORE the war?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. they did
in a round about way.. but now the "former" cia agents are talking..the cia got screwed by the whitehouse,now they are fighting back.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. In the US they did an "End arounD" the CIA
And now are double-ling back trying to pin it back on them. Dick and the Neo-Cons set up the Office of Special Plans just for that reason. There must have figured that in the CIA there were too many career officers and it was not politicized enough.

This seems to be the thing we have been waiting for, the proverbial hand in the cookie jar.

I posted this in another thread that was a dupe to this one looking for some enlightenment.


(snip)
Wasn't a lot of the evidence about WMD put forward by the US based on the evidence that UK intelligence had put forward. Everybody knows they were basing it all on False and made up evidence. But all of these spooks loyal to and working on the Neo-con side wanted to use the Brits because it would be less susceptible to public scrutiny because of their legal structure. It seems this thing that is happening would blow the lid off of that. They seem to be trying to put this under the rug, just like *'s AWOL Status.

The part that seems confusing is why do these various intelligence agencies get the benefit of saying they were separate from each other, when there are many statements in public and published record stating that they were working together closely on this matter of WMD in Iraq

Is my recollections, or have they done a 180, thinking people would forget?
(snip)
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. The lies are exposed for all to see.


Will they pay any price at all?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. So Blair did sex it up
Bye bye Tony!
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. My response also - the 45 minute bs didn't appear
by magic, did it? Someone put it in there. Maybe the BBC "caved" too soon on this?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. i listened to a former cia agent on bbc last night
saying the same thing. i think the "spooks" are getting ready to battle the politicians on both sides of the atlantic. it`s really scary when you hope the "spooks" win....
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Melsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yep
I never thought I'd be rooting for the CIA. What a world. Go spooks.
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. You go Dr Jones!
Fantastic article & another fantastic bit of whistleblowing.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is quite significant.
I wonder what this gentleman's views on Operation Rockingham are...

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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Go, Dr. Jones, indeed...
but why weren't these views forced to be taken into account in the investigation? How could you listen to this guy and absolve Blair of all wrongdoing?
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Briar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Hutton chose not to
"but why weren't these views forced to be taken into account in the investigation? How could you listen to this guy and absolve Blair of all wrongdoing?"


He just decided to ignore Jones' testimony. In the same way, he decided that such nifty little editorial quirks as removing phrases like "if attacked" from sentences beginning, "Saddam will use WMD" did not amount to lying.

It was his enquiry. He could ignore what he liked. And because he did, Bliar is prancing about claiming that he is not a liar.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. because Blair paid Hutton not to take them into account
Just kidding! I'm not going to slander the British Prime Minister by accusing him of bribery.

He might have threatened Hutton, or blackmailed him, or offered rewards other than monetary.

But my money's on bribery.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. BOOOOOM!!
Now the tide is definitely turning.
This is it.

Blair is now facing the same resistance from his intelligence sector as Bush is in the US. They just waited until Blair took up his position before they lowered the boom. Cagey, intelligent move!

Blair is finished!

This should be required reading for any college student interested in political science, history or whatever. History in the making.

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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. Boring...get your ricin! Hot fresh ricin here! Anyone?! RICIN!..tsk n/t
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. We really don't need more investigations
They lied. We know it.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. That's exactly what Tony said!
I like the way that the head of a Defence Intelligence Committee
hasn't got sufficient clearance to see this "important but definitely
accurate information" while a tosser like Campbell can manipulate the
dossiers (and thus the partliament, public and Armed Forces) without
hard evidence.

Nihil
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monobrau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. That's why they need an investigation
The investigation is to create a matrix of disinformation that will help obscure the obvious lies. They know if they look hard enough, they'll find some operative that didn't fill out some paperwork properly and they'll crucify him in the press just in time for the elections.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. They lied and we know it
and they know that we know it. Question is, how do we get rid of them NOW, before elections. They have the power.
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. It matters not
The public don't care.

I do. If anyone saw Blairs performance yesterday you must now surely realise the depth of evil / delusion we are dealing with.

Blair has gone mad.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. moneymoneymoneymoneymoney...
makes the world go around.

no doubt Blair did he part to lie, and no doubt, like John Major, he's been promised a big fat cushion with the Bush-bin Laden Carlyle Group when GB tosses him out.

it's win/win for Bush. They set up labour (okay, "new" labour) and wait for a new Thatcher-esque govt to get the nod from disgusted Brits.

in the meantime, they get their war, which is worth billions.

does anyone else here remember reading (or have bookmarked) an article which talked about the way in which Likud also had its own "Office of Special Plans" to override its intelligence, too?

It's the coalition of the willing liars.
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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Oiloiloiloiloiloiloiloiloil
Peak oil, that's all you need to know.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. We know that, they know that, but do they know that we know that.........
they don't know that we know that. Ah, not that confusing (that part anyway) Check out this blantant lie by Mr Colin Powel.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0204/dailyUpdate.html?s=entt
Bad day for Blair
Top UK WMD expert: Concerns about 'misleading' Iraq dossier were overruled
By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com
Reuters reports that British Prime Minister Tony Blair's efforts to quell the furor over Iraq's missing weapons of mass destruction have suffered another setback after a former top intelligence official tore apart his government's case for war. The Independent reports that Brian Jones, the former leading expert on WMD in the Ministry of Defense, declared that "not a single defense intelligence expert" backed Mr. Blair's most contentious claims about Iraq's WMD.
(snip)
(snip)
Meanwhile, The Age of Melbourne, Australia reports that US Secretary of State Colin Powell also added to President George W. Bush's WMD problems when he earlier this week he told a meeting of The Washington Post editorial board that he might not have advocated going to war with Iraq if he had known that Saddam Hussein had no WMD.

"I don't know," Mr. Powell said candidly to the Post board, "I don't know because it was the stockpiles that presented the final piece that made it more of a real and present danger." And he said, "The absence of a stockpile changes the political calculus ... . . . The fact of the matter is that we went into this with the understanding that there was a stockpile, and there were weapons."

The Daily Telegraph says Powell's statements, which he has since tried to "clarify," were yet another blow to Blair in a week already raining with such comments. The New York Times reports that White House officials were irritated by Powell's remarks. Repeating a line that Powell had used to describe himself during a dispute with the administration on another topic in 2001, one official said Tuesday that Powell was "a little forward on his skis again."
(snip)
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Ultimately, it's just Power, Power, Power!
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
21. i'm not sure i'd want the intel community pissed off at me
they didn't earn their reputation as thugs and assassins for nothing.

one unbelievable quality of the bushes is how undiscriminating they are about whom they crap on. never a thought about whether this of that constituency might come back to haunt them down the road.

well, now they've crapped on the spooks. and i'm sure you've never been screwed until you've been screwed by the cia.

bush one's october 1980 trip to paris, anyone?
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banana republican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
22. Casper the Friendly Ghost..
eom
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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. I am just reading an article that protestors in the UK were arrested
for 'WHITEWASHING" the black gate of Downing Street, where Blair's office is located.

That is so funny, you go Brits, let 'em know that you are not fooled by this gang of Dr. Evils!!!
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. Blair is still trying to lie his ass off
Check these two articles, see if they jive together

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2491894
Blair Admission on '45 Minutes' Wmd Claim

By Gavin Cordon, Whitehall Editor, PA News

Tony Blair said today he had been unaware that the controversial “45 minute claim” in the Government’s Iraq dossier referred only to battlefield weapons when he asked MPs to vote for war.

Questioned during the Commons debate on the Hutton Inquiry, the Prime Minister said he had not known what sort of weapons were being referred to at the time of the crucial Commons vote on March 18.

“I have already indicated exactly when this came to my attention. It wasn’t before the debate on March 18 last year,” he said.
(snip)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/wmd-j29.shtml

Blair’s 45-minute WMD claim refuted by Iraqi group that supplied the intelligence
By Chris Marsden
29 January 2004
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

The pro-Western Iraqi National Accord (INA) has admitted that it supplied intelligence to Britain’s Labour government that became the basis for Prime Minister Tony Blair’s claim that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons of mass destruction (WMD) within 45 minutes, and it also admitted that the intelligence was false.

The January 12 edition of Newsweek and the January 27 edition of the Guardian carried comments based on admissions by the INA, a rival of the Iraqi National Congress of Ahmed Chalabi. The INA has longstanding connections to the CIA and MI6, and is led by Iyad Alawi, who is now a member of the Iraqi governing council in Baghdad.

The 45-minute claim was the centrepiece of Britain’s September 2002 intelligence dossier that was meant to legitimise Blair’s predetermined decision to support the Bush administration’s plans to launch an illegal war of aggression against Iraq. The intelligence came from only one uncorroborated source, a former Iraqi air-defence officer, Lieutenant Colonel al-Dabbagh. The officer first claimed to be the source of the intelligence in the December 7 edition of Britain’s Sunday Telegraph
(snip)
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Blair may say he didn't know, but Hoon did
and he let the misleading claim spread through all the press. So now it looks like he misled the PM as well as the press and public. Do you think Tony will ask for his resignation?

Transcript of his appearance before Hutton (http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/transcripts/hearing-trans39.htm):

16 Q. Did you know that the 45 minute claim in the dossier was
17 taken from a JIC assessment which does not in fact
18 identify any particular weapon?
19 A. Well, I recall at the time having some discussion in the
20 Ministry of Defence about the kinds of weapons that
21 could be deployable within 45 minutes; and I think the
22 assumption was made that they would be, for example,
23 chemical shells, which were clearly capable of being
24 deployed, as I think Mr Scarlett has indicated to
25 the Inquiry, in a time even less than 45 minutes;

81
1 I think he suggested 20 minutes.
2 Q. So you knew, did you, that the munitions referred to
3 were only battlefield munitions?
4 A. I was certainly aware that that was one suggestion, yes.
5 Q. Was there any other suggestion that they were not
6 battlefield munitions but strategic munitions?
7 A. I recall asking what kind of weapons would be deployable
8 within 45 minutes; and the answer is the answer that
9 I have just given to you.
10 Q. Which was shells, battlefield mortars, tactical weapons
11 of that kind?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would your Department be responsible for correcting any
14 false impression given by the press on an issue of this
15 importance?
16 A. I think on an issue of this importance it would not
17 simply have been the Ministry of Defence that was solely
18 responsible. There would have been an effort across
19 Government.
20 Q. Are you aware that on 25th September a number of
21 newspapers had banner headlines suggesting that this
22 related to strategic missiles or bombs?
23 A. I can recall, yes.
24 Q. Why was no corrective statement issued for the benefit
25 of the public in relation to those media reports?

82
1 A. I do not know.
2 Q. It must have been considered by someone, must it not?
3 A. I have spent many years trying to persuade newspapers
4 and journalists to correct their stories. I have to say
5 it is an extraordinarily time consuming and generally
6 frustrating process.
7 Q. I am sorry, are you saying that the press would not
8 report a corrective statement that the dossier was meant
9 to refer, in this context, to battlefield munitions and
10 not to strategic weapons?
11 A. What I am suggesting is that I was not aware of whether
12 any consideration was given to such a correction. All
13 that I do know from my experience is that, generally
14 speaking, newspapers are resistant to corrections. That
15 judgment may have been made by others as well.
16 Q. But, Mr Hoon, you must have been horrified that the
17 dossier had been misrepresented in this way; it was
18 a complete distortion of what it actually was intended
19 to convey, was it not?
20 A. Well, I was not horrified. I recognised that
21 journalists occasionally write things that are more
22 dramatic than the material upon which it is based.
23 Q. Can we forget journalists for the moment and concentrate
24 on the members of the public who are reading it? Will
25 they not be entitled to be given the true picture of the

83
1 intelligence, not a vastly inflated one?
2 A. I think that is a question you would have to put to the
3 journalists and the editors responsible.
4 Q. But you had the means to correct it, not them. They
5 could not correct it until they were told, could they?
6 A. Well, as I say, my experience of trying to persuade
7 newspapers to correct false impressions is one that is
8 not full of success.
9 Q. Do you accept that on this topic at least you had an
10 absolute duty to try to correct it?
11 A. No, I do not.
12 Q. Do you accept that you had any duty to correct it?
13 A. Well, I apologise for repeating the same answer, but you
14 are putting the question in another way. I have tried
15 on many, many occasions to persuade journalists and
16 newspapers to correct stories. They do not like to do
17 so.
18 Q. Can I suggest to you a reason why this was not done? It
19 would have been politically highly embarrassing because
20 it would have revealed the dossier as published was at
21 least highly capable of being misleading.
22 A. Well, I do not accept that.
23 Q. So your suggestion is that this was a disgraceful
24 exaggeration by the press of what was clear in the
25 dossier as a reference to battlefield munitions?

84
1 A. I am certainly suggesting that it was an exaggeration,
2 but it is not unusual for newspapers to exaggerate.
3 Q. Can you tell me, if you happen to have it to hand, where
4 in the dossier it is made clear that the CBW weapons
5 which were the subject of the 45 minute claim were only
6 battlefield munitions?
7 A. Well, I do not have it to hand; and I do not know
8 whether it was made clear.
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yup. Lies, lies, lies.
But save Hoon going on a postal rampage at the MoD with some £20 billion BAE weapons system, the twerp just ain't gonna go.
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kala Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. Bliar heckled ...
Those damn British protesters never get tired :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3458541.stm

Hutton report 'was no whitewash'
Mr Blair said evidence of weapons programmes were uncovered
Tony Blair has dismissed fresh concern about the intelligence gathered about Iraq and again defended his decision to go to war.

His comments during a Commons debate were interrupted by anti-war protesters shouting "no more whitewashes".

Quo Vadis, Tony ? :)

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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. UK expert on WMDs breaks his silence - IOL
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. Any Aussies out there?
Edited on Wed Feb-04-04 03:27 PM by nolabels
I kind of like the way they draw conclusions there, telling us about them judges over there on British Isles is good too.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8583489%255E663,00.html
Chiefs blind to Iraq doubt ~ spy expert
Bruce Wilson
05feb04
(snip)
He made it clear he believed the overruling was political, and called on Mr Blair to publish his government's alleged intelligence over Iraq's possession of chemical and biological weapons, including the claim Saddam Hussein could deploy them within 45 minutes.

Dr Jones's going public was seen as the first step by the British intelligence network to protect itself from becoming the scapegoat in the inquiry -- the fourth related to Britain and the Iraq war.

There was derisory laughter in London's corridors of power when Lord Butler was named chairman of the inquiry.

He is the personification of the establishment -- a former Cabinet Secretary and former head of the civil service.

Sir Humphrey in Yes Minister may have been modelled on Robin Butler, an old colleague said yesterday.

He notoriously failed to reach the truth in two previous inquiries against dishonest government ministers Jonathan Aitken and Neil Hamilton.

Lord Butler cleared both. Later, the courts found both were guilty
(snip)

On Edit: collected from bottom,forgot the snip,
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