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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:42 AM
Original message
McCain Criticizes Bush on Torture Of Prisoners
Source: NYT/Reuters

ST LOUIS (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidate John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, on Sunday issued some of his harshest criticism to date of the use of torture against terrorism suspects during President George W. Bush's administration.

In an interview on Fox News, the Arizona senator laid out his differences with Bush on a number of issues, citing torture as a key sticking point between him and the current president. "I obviously don't want to torture any prisoners. There is a long list of areas that we were in disagreement on," McCain said of Bush.

Fox interviewer Chris Wallace asked McCain if he was suggesting that Bush did want to torture prisoners. "Well, waterboarding to me is torture, OK?" McCain responded. "And waterboarding was advocated by the administration, and according to a published report, was used."...

McCain suffered torture at the hands of his captors during more than five years in a Vietnam prison camp.

Though a strong advocate of the war in Iraq and Bush's "surge" policy that increased U.S. troop levels there, McCain has been a critic of harsh interrogation techniques against terrorism suspects, including those held at the U.S. military facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba....

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/washington/politics-usa-politics-mccain-torture.html
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. McCain is spineless
he did not stand up against torture
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Nor did Pelosi or Harman . . . torture
is as American (and bi-partisan) as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown)
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Totally false!!!
Edited on Mon Sep-01-08 01:12 PM by George II
Pelosi: ‘Torture is not Consistent with American Values’
Wednesday, November 16, 2005

Contact: Brendan Daly/Jennifer Crider, 202-226-7616

Washington, D.C. – House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi joined other Democratic leaders at a press stakeout this morning after the Democratic Caucus meeting to discuss the House Republicans’ opposition to banning torture. Below are Pelosi’s remarks:

“Thank you very much, Mr. Menendez. I want to commend you, the Chairman of our Caucus, for your leadership on these issues, about honoring our responsibility to the American people. To protect them is our first responsibility. And what is happening in Iraq raises a big question as to whether it is making America safer.

“When we put our young men and women in harm’s way, we always owe the American people the truth, and that is what the Congress is asking the President for: the truth.

“I served many years on the Intelligence Committee, and I know we endanger our own troops and personnel when we use torture, because it can be used on them. The quality of intelligence that is collected by torture is worthless – it is uncorroborated and it is worthless. We have the know-how, the personnel, and the resources in our country to protect the American people in a way that protects our values, that reflects the priorities of our citizens. And that means not using torture.

“I urge the Speaker to appoint House conferees to the defense appropriations bill immediately so that Congressman Murtha can offer his motion to instruct conferees, which would demonstrate the House’s strong opposition to the torture of detainees. We must send a clear message to the world that torture is not consistent with American values.”

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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. AKA "closing the barn door . . . " - the
evidence is pretty well indisputable that Pelosi, Harman knew back in 2002-03 that the Bush junta were engaged in a program of torture. Pelosi waits until 2005 to speak out?

Sorry to burst your bubble. Just why exactly do you think P took impeachment off the table?
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. She didn't wait until 2005, that was just the quickest example I found to prove you totally wrong!!
Edited on Mon Sep-01-08 03:14 PM by George II
Given another 30 or 40 seconds I'm sure I could find several others, too.

But, based on your false premise, it really isn't worth even the 30 seconds.

PS - this is a discussion about McCain's position on torture, why drag in Pelosi, and on a bogus point at that? Besides, you brought up Pelosi's perceived approval of torture. Why don't YOU spend 30 seconds looking for an example?
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. "Totally wrong"?--have you even
bothered to read Jane Meyers' and Ron Suskind's latest books?

If not, then do so and see if you still think I am "totally wrong."
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Relevance? Anything specific or do you just want to send me on a wild goose chase? But....
I did google Jane Meyers, and whatever I found about Jane Meyers is that she despises Nancy Pelosi and says nothing objective about her, regardless of reality and fact.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Pelosi and Harman were both
repeatedly briefed on the CIA's "harsh interrogation techniques" (aka "torture") as part of the so-called "Gang of 8" in 2002-03.

Since the first post said McAnus was "spineless", it seemed only fair to point out that neither Pelosi nor Harman spoke out when doing so might have made a difference in the lives of innocent people.

Pelosi's 2005 words make me think "the lady doth protest too much."
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Do you understand the concept of "classified"?
Remember several years ago (2003 or 2004 I think) Senator Rockefeller saying he was very disturbed with information he was given during a classified briefing regarding the collection of intelligence, although he also said he couldn't talk about specifics? Turns out he was alluding to the FISA abuses.

If either he or Pelosi gave details of the classified information they received, they could have been removed from office. THEN how much good could they have done?

BUT, you still haven't told us when Pelosi said that torture was acceptable, which was the original premise of this discussion!
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Please take a closer look at
Edited on Mon Sep-01-08 11:02 PM by coalition_unwilling
post 1. It begins with the words "McCain is spineless."

Rather than create straw men -- I never wrote that 'Pelosi said that torture was acceptable'(your attribution to me in the post immediately above) -- you would be better served by considering what it means to have a spine and to use it.

You might start with Dan Ellsburg.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yes, I read post 1 before I got down to your post...
subsequent posts read like this:

"McCain is spineless he did not stand up against torture"

and then YOU chimed in with:

"Nor did Pelosi or Harman....torture is as American (and bi-partisan) as cherry pie"

Which logically means that you claim that Pelosi did NOT stand up against torture, and then later you posted:

"Pelosi and Harman were both repeatedly briefed on the CIA's "harsh interrogation techniques" (aka "torture") as part of the so-called "Gang of 8" in 2002-03."

Your conclusion was that since she was told about "torture" (which we're not really sure, since the briefings were classified) and did nothing about it that she did not stand up against torture. Sure, maybe it can be a stretch that she didn't, but she certainly was NOT in a position to "stand up against torture". You've taken a circuitous and highly subjective road to get from McCain not standing up against torture to blast DEMOCRAT Nancy Pelosi for the same thing. That certainly is NOT true and is a counterfeit and unfair accusation.

Period.

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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Oh please, you really need to read Mayers' and Suskind's books
Edited on Tue Sep-02-08 12:08 PM by coalition_unwilling
before you spout off on a subject about which you know relatively little.

Yes, the hearings were "classified." But since when does the classification of law-breaking (both domestic and international) preclude an individual from whistle-blowing??? (You might wish to check out whistle-blower statutes before you spout off.)

The "Pentagon Papers" were classified too. Ellsburg showed real spine (and faced down the full weight of the U.S. National Security apparatus), as opposed to Pelosi's and Harman's jelly-fish-like drifting with the tides of public sentiment.

Period.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Is it Mayers or Meyers?
You still have been unable to give us a specific time that Pelosi "did not stand up against torture", even though I've been able to give you one.

Subjectively tying together a few scattered remarks and projecting that as "Pelosi did not stand up against torture", and sending me off to pore over two biased authors' books is the cheap and easy way out.
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clydefrand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Didn't he recently vote for water boarding as an acceptable
means of torture? I'm I losing it like he is????
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. So, he was against torture before he was for it before he was against it.
Flip. Flop. Flip.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I thought he had been pretty consistent on torture. Maybe I'm mistaken? nt
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. ...
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks, FC -- I missed that somehow! nt
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choie Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. how the hell can these reporters
write a story like that and not include his vote AGAINST outlawing waterboarding? What the fuck is wrong with them - DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK, REUTERS/NYTIMES!!!!!
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. His bill with Graham and Warner
left the determination of what was torture to the executive branch. They defeated an amendment by Kennedy that listed (I think 10) things as torture, including water boarding. There were excellent Senate speeches by Leahy, Kennedy, Dodd and Kerry - among other Democrats that all boiled down to Kerry's sentence that this bill allows torture.

The media - then and now - pushed McCain as standing up on torture - and though the 3 Senators did initially they caved and wrote the bill as Bush wanted.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Thanks for this info, karynnj! nt
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. You are welcome
For more detail - here's Kerry's speech:

Mr. KERRY. Mr. President, the last week before we leave for a long recess has always been extraordinarily busy--particularly when an election is only 42 days away. But, sadly, this has become too much the way the Senate does business and often its most important business.

Today, the leadership of the Senate has decided that legislation that will directly impact America's moral authority in the world merits only a few hours of debate. What is at stake is the authority that is essential to winning and to waging a legitimate and effective war on terror, and also one that is critical to the safety of American troops who may be captured.

If, in a few hours, we squander that moral authority, blur lines that for decades have been absolute, then no speech, no rhetoric, and no promise can restore it.

Four years ago, we were in a similar situation. An Iraq war resolution was rushed through the Senate because of election-year politics--a political calendar, not a statesman's calendar. And 4 years later, the price we are paying is clear for saying to a President and an administration that we would trust them.

Today, we face a different choice--to prevent an irreversible mistake, not to correct one. It is to stand and be counted so that election-year politics do not further compromise our moral authority and the safety of our troops.

Every Senator must ask him or herself: Does the bill before us treat America's authority as a precious national asset that does not limit our power but magnifies our influence in the world? Does it make clear that the U.S. Government recognizes beyond any doubt that the protections of the Geneva Conventions have to be applied to prisoners in order to comply with the law, restore our moral authority, and best protect American troops? Does it make clear that the United States of America does not engage in torture , period?

Despite protests to the contrary, I believe the answer is clearly no. I wish it were not so. I wish this compromise actually protected the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions. But it does not. In fact, I regret to say, despite the words and the protests to the contrary, this bill permits torture. This bill gives the President the discretion to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions. It gives confusing definitions of ``torture'' and ``cruel and inhuman treatment'' that are inconsistent with the Detainee Treatment Act, which we passed 1 year ago, and inconsistent with the Army Field Manual. It provides exceptions for pain and suffering ``incidental to lawful sanctions,'' but it does not tell us what the lawful sanctions are.


So what are we voting for with this bill? We are voting to give the President the power to interpret the Geneva Conventions. We are voting to allow pain and suffering incident to some undefined lawful sanctions.

This bill gives an administration that lobbied for torture exactly what it wanted. And the administration has

GPO's PDF

been telling people it gives them what they wanted. The only guarantee we have that these provisions will prohibit torture is the word of the President. Well, I wish I could say the word of the President were enough on an issue as fundamental as torture . But we have been down this road.

The administration said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida, that they would exhaust diplomacy before they went to war, that the insurgency was in its last throes. None of these statements were true.

The President said he agreed with Senator McCain's antitorture provisions in the Detainee Treatment Act. Yet he issued a signing statement reserving the right to ignore them. Are we supposed to trust that word?

He says flatly that ``The United States does not torture ,'' but then he tries to push the Congress into allowing him to do exactly that. And even here he has promised to submit his interpretations of the Geneva Conventions to the Federal Register. Yet his Press Secretary announced that the administration may not need to comply with that requirement. And we are supposed to trust that?

Obviously, another significant problem with this bill is the unconstitutional limitation of the writ of habeas corpus. It is extraordinary to me that in 2 hours, and a few minutes of a vote, the Senate has done away with something as specific as habeas corpus, of which the Constitution says: ``he Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.''

Well, we are not in a rebellion, nor are we being invaded. Thus, we do not have the constitutional power to suspend the writ. And I believe the Court will ultimately find it unconstitutional.

The United States needs to retain its moral authority to win the war on terror. We all want to win it. We all want to stop terrorist attacks. But we need to do it keeping faith with our values and the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. President, a veteran of the Iraq War whom I know, Paul Rieckhoff, wrote something the other day that every Senator ought to think about as they wrestle with this bill. He wrote that he was taught at Fort Benning, GA, about the importance of the Geneva Conventions. He didn't know what it meant until he arrived in Baghdad. Paul wrote:

America's moral integrity was the single most important weapon my platoon had on the streets of Iraq. It saved innumerable lives, encouraged cooperation with our allies and deterred Iraqis from joining the growing insurgency. But those days are over. America's moral standing has eroded, thanks to its flawed rationale for war and scandals like Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and Haditha. The last thing we can afford now is to leave Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions open to reinterpretation, as President Bush proposed to do and can still do under the compromise bill that emerged last week.

We each need to ask ourselves, in the rush to find a ``compromise'' we can all embrace, are we strengthening America's moral authority or eroding it? Are we on the sides of the thousands of Paul Rieckhoffs in uniform today, or are we making their mission harder and even worse, putting them in greater danger if they are captured?

Paul writes eloquently:

If America continues to erode the meaning of the Geneva Conventions, we will cede the ground upon which to prosecute dictators and warlords. We will also become unable to protect our troops if they are perceived as being no more bound by the rule of law than dictators and warlords themselves. The question facing America is not whether to continue fighting our enemies in Iraq and beyond but how to do it best. My soldiers and I learned the hard way that policy at the point of a gun cannot, by itself, create democracy. The success of America's fight against terrorism depends more on the strength of its moral integrity than on troop numbers in Iraq or the flexibility of interrogation options.

I wish I could say this compromise serves America's moral mission and protects our troops, but it doesn't. No eloquence we can bring to this debate can change what this bill fails to do.

We have been told in press reports that it is a great compromise between the White House and my good friends, Senator MCCAIN, Senator WARNER, and Senator GRAHAM. We have been told that it protects the ``integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions.''

I wish that what we are being told is true. It is not. Nothing in the language of the bill supports these claims. Let me be clear about something--something that it seems few people are willing to say. This bill permits torture . This bill gives the President the discretion to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions. This bill gives an administration that lobbied for torture exactly what it wanted.

We are supposed to believe that there is an effective check on this expanse of Presidential power with the requirement that the President's interpretations be published in the Federal Register.

We shouldn't kid ourselves. Let's assume the President publishes his interpretation of permissible acts under the Geneva Convention. The interpretation, like the language in this bill, is vague and inconclusive. A concerned Senator or Congresswoman calls for oversight. Unless he or she is in the majority at the time, there won't be a hearing. Let's assume they are in the majority and get a hearing. Do we really think a bill will get through both houses of Congress? A bill that directly contradicts a Presidential interpretation of a matter of national security? My guess is that it won't happen, but maybe it will. Assume it does. The bill has no effect until the President actually signs it. So, unless the President chooses to reverse himself, all the power remains in the President's

hands. And all the while, America's moral authority is in tatters, American troops are in greater jeopardy, and the war on terror is set back.

Could the President's power grab be controlled by the courts? After all, it was the Supreme Court's decision in Hamdan that invalidated the President's last attempt to consolidate power and establish his own military tribunal system. The problem now is that the bill strips the courts the power to hear such a case when it says ``no person may invoke the Geneva Conventions ..... in any habeas or civil action.''

What are we left with? Unfettered Presidential power to interpret what--other than the statutorily proscribed ``grave violations''--violates the Geneva Conventions. No wonder the President was so confident that his CIA program could continue as is. He gets to keep setting the rules--rules his administration have spent years now trying to blur.

Presidential discretion is not the only problem. The definitions of what constitute ``grave breaches'' of Article 3 are murky. Even worse, they are not consistent with either the Detainee Treatment Act or the recently revised Army Field Manual. These documents prohibit ``cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment'' defined as ``the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments.'' The definition is supported by an extensive body of case law evaluating what treatment is required by our constitutional standards of ``dignity, civilization, humanity, decency, and fundamental fairness.'' And, I think quite tellingly, it is substantially similar to the definition that my good friend, Senator MCCAIN, chose to include in his bill. And there is simply no reason why the standard adopted by the Army Field Manual and the Detainee Treatment Act, which this Congress has already approved, should not apply for all interrogations in all circumstances.

In the bill before us, however, there is no reference to any constitutional standards. The prohibition of degrading conduct has been dropped. And, there are caveats allowing pain and suffering ``incidental to lawful sanctions.'' Nowhere does it tell us what ``lawful sanctions'' are.

So, what are we voting for with this bill? We are voting to give the President the power to interpret the Geneva Conventions. We are voting to allow pain and suffering incident to some undefined lawful sanctions. The only guarantee we have that these provisions really will prohibit torture is the word of the President.

The word of the President. I wish I could say the words of the President were enough on an issue as fundamental as torture . Fifty years ago, President Kennedy sent his Secretary of State abroad on a crisis mission--to

GPO's PDF

prove to our allies that Soviet missiles were being held in Cuba. The Secretary of State brought photos of the missiles. As he prepared to take them from his briefcase, our ally, a foreign head of state said, simply, ``put them away. The word of the President of the United States is good enough for me.''

We each wish we lived in times like those--perilous times, but times when America's moral authority, our credibility, were unquestioned, unchallenged.

But the word of the President today is questioned. This administration said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that Saddam Hussein had ties to Al Qaeda, that they would exhaust diplomacy before we went to war, that the insurgency was in its last throes. None of these statements were true, and now we find our troops in the crossfire of civil war in Iraq with no end in sight. They keep saying the war in Iraq is making us safer, but our own intelligence agencies say it is actually fanning the flames of jihad, creating a whole new generation of terrorists and putting our country at greater risk of terrorist attack. It is no wonder then that we are hesitant to blindly accept the word of the President on this question today.

The President said he agreed with Senator MCCAIN's antitorture provisions in the Detainee Treatment Act. Yet, he issued a signing statement reserving the right to ignore them. He says flatly that ``The United States does not torture'' --and then tries to bully Congress into allowing him to do exactly that. And even here, he has promised to submit his interpretations of the Geneva Convention to the Federal Register--yet his Press

Secretary announced that the administration may not need to comply with that requirement.

We have seen the consequences of simply accepting the word of this administration. No, the Senate cannot just accept the word of this administration that they will not engage in torture given the way in which everything they have already done and said on this most basic question has already put our troops at greater risk and undermined the very moral authority needed to win the war on terror. When the President says the United States doesn't torture , there has to be no doubt about it. And when his words are unclear, Congress must step in to hold him accountable.

The administration will use fear to try and bludgeon anyone who disagrees with them.

Just as they pretended Iraq is the central front in the war on terror even as their intelligence agencies told them their policy made terrorism worse, they will pretend America needs to squander its moral authority to win the war on terror.

They are wrong, profoundly wrong. The President's experts have told him that not only does torture put our troops at risk and undermine our moral authority, but torture does not work. As LTG John Kimmons, the Army's deputy chief of staff for intelligence, put it:

No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tell us that. Any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress, through the use of abusive techniques, would be of questionable credibility. And additionally, it would do more harm than good when it inevitably became known that abusive practices were used. We can't afford to go there.

Neither justice nor good intelligence comes at the hands of torture . In fact, both depend on the rule of law. It would be wrong--tragically wrong--to authorize the President to require our sons and daughters to use torture for something that won't even work.

Another significant problem with this bill is the unconstitutional elimination of the writ of habeas corpus. No less a conservative than Ken Starr got it right:

Congress should act cautiously to strike a balance between the need to detain enemy combatants during the present conflict and the need to honor the historic privilege of the writ of habeas corpus.

Ken Starr says, ``Congress should act cautiously.'' How cautiously are we acting when we eliminate any right to challenge an enemy combatant's indefinite detention? When we eliminate habeas corpus rights for aliens detained inside or outside the United States so long as the Government believes they are enemy combatants? When we not only do this for future cases but apply it to hundreds of cases currently making their way through our court system?

The Constitution is very specific when it comes to habeas corpus. It says, ``he Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.'' We are not in a case of rebellion, nor are we being invaded. Thus, we really don't have the constitutional power to suspend the Great Writ. And, even if we did, the Constitution allows only for the writ to be suspended. It does not allow the writ to be permanently taken away. Yet, this is exactly what the bill does. It takes the writ away--forever--from anyone the administration determines is an ``enemy combatant,'' even if they are lawfully on U.S. soil and otherwise entitled to full constitutional protections, and even if they have absolutely no other recourse.

Think of what this means. This bill is giving the administration the power to pick up any non-U.S. citizen inside or outside of the United States, determine in their sole and unreviewable discretion that he is an unlawful combatant, and hold him in jail--be it Guantanamo Bay or a secret CIA prison--indefinitely. Once the Combatant Status Review Tribunal determines that person is an enemy combatant, that is the end of the story--even if the determination is based on evidence that even a military commission would not be allowed to consider because it is so unreliable. That person would never get the chance to challenge his detention; to prove that he is not, in fact, an enemy combatant.

We are not talking about whether detainees can file a habeas suit because they don't have access to the Internet or cable television. We are talking about something much more fundamental: whether people can be locked up forever without even getting the chance to prove that the Government was wrong in detaining them. Allow this to become the policy of the United States and just imagine the difficulty our law enforcement and our Government will have arranging the release of an American citizen the next time our citizens are detained in other countries.

Mr. President, we all want to stop terrorist attacks. We all want to effectively gather as much intelligence as humanly possible. We all want to bring those who do attack us to justice. But, we weaken--not strengthen--our ability to do that when we undermine our own Constitution; when we throw away our system of checks and balances; when we hold detainees indefinitely without trial by destroying the writ of habeas corpus; and when we permit torture . We endanger our moral authority at our great peril. I oppose this legislation because it will make us less safe and less secure. I urge my colleagues to do the same.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "the Detainee Treatment Act, which we passed 1 year ago " that did prohibit torture was where McCain was against torture - in 2005. In 2006, he caved.
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NM Independent Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Flip Flop Flip Indeed!!
My head is spinning.

Next thing you know he'll be against the Bush tax cuts again.
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earthside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. The Unbelievable Nerve of McSame!
He is attacking Bush while there is a hurricane going on!

McCain's campaign manager on Obama: "So he attacks us while there's a hurricane going on..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6860873
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hoosier_lefty Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. weird

"Mccain votes against torture ban"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/13/mccain-votes-against-tort_n_86549.html


The 2 McCains need to have a debate.
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
8. Does this stupid asshole believe anything he says?
~
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. he has been for torture and voted that way n/t
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well, if you buy into the spin about how McCain stood up to his torturers as a P.O.W.,
then he's gotten more and more cowardly as his years advanced ... he can't really stand up to his party ... I remember when the spin was "He's stood up to Presidents!" (as how much of a maverick he was ...) ... sure ... he stood up to a President ... Democrat Bill Clinton ... big risk there ... :eyes::sarcasm:
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bobd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. This is just more MSM smoke screen bullshit allegory
McCain sold out to Bush on the Military Commissions Act and actually used his position as a supposed torture survivor to do so.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/04/27/mccain/

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20061011.html

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/09/mccain-ron-paul.html
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
15. This is the third flip-flop by McCain on the torture issue
During the early GOP debates last year, McCain said that water boarding was torture (which it is!). This year McCain said that water boarding was not torture, clearly to pander the rightwing. Now it appears that McCain is flip-flopping a third time to pander to independents.
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. I guess he's trying to lose the hunter vote...
teehee teehee...
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SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. And IN CASE YOU FORGOT...
"McCain suffered torture at the hands of his captors during more than five years in a Vietnam prison camp."

This will be inserted into every article written about McCain...
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FVZA_Colonel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. And isn't it true that under current legal standards he was never tortured in Vietnam?
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. Grumps may be going all out for payback. Remember
the election where * and evil his doers had that ad that implied Grumpy had an illegitimate black child?
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. how many times has he flip-flopped on this one?
more or less than SS privatization? :shrug:
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. McCane has no right to do this...
another hypocrisy. McCane voted with shrubCo on this, as he did 95% of the time.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
36. He flip flopped on torture AGAIN?
Really?
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
37. Flip-flopping motherfucker - I find it MORE vile that he constantly
grandstands in the press, jumping up and down yelling "I DON'T BELIEVE IN TORTURE!!! NO TORTURE IN THE USA!!!", and then every time a vote comes up in the Senate, he votes FOR it!
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