Venezuela's Chavez says US ambassador must leave

[Bozita]

Source: AP

Venezuela's Chavez says US ambassador must leave

By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER, Associated Press Writer
7 minutes ago

CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez said the U.S. ambassador has 72 hours to leave Venezuela and that he's recalling his ambassador from Washington.

Chavez said Thursday night that he is asking U.S. Ambassador Patrick Duddy to leave in part to show solidarity with Bolivian President Evo Morales, who expelled Washington's envoy in La Paz.

"They're trying to do here what they were doing in Bolivia," Chavez said.

"That's enough ... from you, Yankees," he said, using an expletive.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080912/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_us;_ylt=AvDg5xG6RdFcfvuD_u_Yg.ys0NUE

[thunder rising]

1. Hmmm, he's either got a lot of backing (real possibility) or he's really fucked up (not likely)

[panader0]

2. Ever since his "i can still smell the sulfur" remark, I have liked Chavez.

[pleah]

4. Me too.

;)

[Possumpoint]

5. IF You Like Him That Much,

Relocate! Find out what the difference is between living in a Republic and a Dictatorship.

[EFerrari]

6. IF you can't tell the difference, maybe you need to do your own homework.

[clear eye]

50. Don't waste your energy. That little "ignore" tool can be real handy. n/t

[ngant17]

56. Yeah, I'd say this guy/gal should be on everyone's ignore list

and he/she has now made it to my list, with, what, barely 300 posts to his/her credit. That's an accomplishment in itself.

It would be nice to compare ignore lists to improve the filtration system.

[natrat]

134. what an idiot- i hate those moronic black or white responses

[Kitty Herder]

7. It might be nice living in a democracy with a rightfully elected president for a change after these

eight long years. I'm sick of this dictatorship. I'd have to learn Spanish, though.

I've seriously considered moving to South America. Fresh winds of change are a blowing there, in a leftward, democratic direction. Sure, they have a lot of work to do, but at least they are doing the work. The only work being done here is the destruction of democracy and progress.

[Nambe]

19. 4 years in Mx and I don´t speak much spanish, just go.

It has been tough in Venezuela for people living in the flow of big oil money. Chavez forced the big oil money over to supporting the masses of very poor people. A similar thing could even happen in the US. The distribution of wealth is not what it should be. Chavez has had to be iron fisted to survive big oil and the Americans pulling strings.
He is a hero to me as well.

[roody]

25. Let's start with a DU meetup in Venezuela.

How about Christmas and New Years weeks?

[IsItJustMe]

36. Hey, give the guy a break. It's hard being a leader while your dodging bullets.

[bitchkitty]

60. Vamonos! I'll go with you.

We should start a convoy to SA (I suffer from fear of flying).

[Zorro]

137. Suuuuure you'll go

All talk and no action. One excuse after another. Yeah, that's how DU Chavistas demonstrate their true revolutionary dedication.

If you're afraid of flying and truly want to emigrate to Venezuela, there's always a tramp steamer heading that way.

[honkydonkey]

140. Hola!

It's nice to meet another "half-baked, ignorant" person who thinks Chavez isn't a saint. Nice to meet you! :)

[Zorro]

146. Greetings to you

There are a number of like-minded posters that aren't intimidated by pro-Chavez bullies.

[happydreams]

176. Finally. A half-baked ignorant person who knows what he is.

:rofl: :rofl:

[honkydonkey]

185. HA!!

Another brilliant person that can't recognize sarcasm. What a surprise! NOT!

[bitchkitty]

168. Actually, you're right -

I won't go to Venezuela, I can't for reasons that are none of your business - I was just wishing out loud. You know - wishing - like hope?

Have you ever done that, Zorro?

[Zorro]

171. Yes I do have hopes

I hope someday you'll stop alerting the mods when I post particularly accurate and stinging zingers.

[bitchkitty]

172. I don't alert the mods -

actually, my posts that have been deleted lately are mostly posts directed at you or your pals. Maybe you're hanging out with a crowd of snitches, Z?

[happydreams]

177. Zorro is is a man under a lot of stress. Sgt. Garcia just won't leave him

alone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUruRh3zw3c


PS. Zorro has confided in me personally that he became enamored of the "real" TV character Zorro because he outfoxed Sgt. Garcia so cleverly.


:rofl:

[Zorro]

180. You seem to be trying to attract my attention

Need your diaper changed?

[bitchkitty]

182. Lighten up, Francis!

It was kind of funny.

[happydreams]

183. Trying? I just did, hee, hee. But seriously

what was it about Zorro you really liked?

[honkydonkey]

186. Wait don't insult her, she is an expert on Venezuela. hee hee.

She knows so much about Venezuela that she was telling me to give messages to my Venezuelan friends the other night and she didn't even realize that they were Mexican insults. They know so much about Mexico, I mean Venezuela! VIVA BITCHKITTY! (rolling eyes). LMAO!

[bitchkitty]

190. That's because my background

is Mexican.

edited to take out the big words - sorry, forgot your level of intellect.

[honkydonkey]

194. Now you are an expert on me as well? HA HA!

And since your "background" (HA HA) is in Mexico, that surely makes you know everything about Venezueula. I mean, they both speak spanish, so they must be the same, right? LMAO. God, thanks for the laugh. VIVA BITCHKITTY! And your post wasn't edited because of "big words". Let's get real here. I just find it incredibly funny that you are attempting to insult my intelligence when you know nothing about me or my education and considering the fact that you, the self-proclaimed know it all, stooped to throwing Mexican insults at a Venezuelan mans mother. Most intelligent people don't behave that way but I'm sure you knew that already since you are soooo smart. hee hee. For somebody who LOVES Venezuela and Chavez so much, you sure seem to hate their people and any person who has a differing opinion than yours. Pretty narrow-minded of you. I'll go tell Manuel that you told him to go make himself a burrito because your "Mexican background" makes you more qualified on the subject of Venezuela. I mean, living there doesn't count. Good afternoon and thanks for the giggle! :)

[bitchkitty]

181. LOL - this is my favorite Zorro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC84CY3I3l4

[happydreams]

184. Check this one out. Zorro helping the peasants throw off foreign

dictators. There is some narrative about 1 minute into this one.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woVJxhN4OCg&feature=related


Oh, the irony.

:rofl:

[happydreams]

175. I want to go but I can't speak Latin....

:cry:

[Bonobo]

8. I love him and I wish you would relocate. nt

[Spouting Horn]

10. Do you love the

"neighborhood committees" as well?

How wonderful it must be to live in a place where your neighbors are required to snitch on you when you don't follow (or even agree with) the Party Line.

It works well in Cuba.

[Kitty Herder]

16. I think you misunderstand the nature of these neighborhood councils.

They're purpose is to give people more control over the government on a local level, to increase democratic participation.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1715

According to the text of the law, communal councils will “represent the means through which the organised masses can take over the direct administration of policies and projects that are created in response to the needs and aspirations of the communities, in the construction of a fair and just society”.

Please don't accept everything you hear from right-wing "news" sources.

[clear eye]

57. And to be honest it saves money on bureaucrats

Basically these are volunteer local bureaucrats, sort of like village councils here in places too poor to pay more than a token salary, and they have to be fairly popular in the neighborhood to keep their positions. It's something of a win-win for the locals and the government. There is a risk that if the government becomes highly corrupt, like China, the neighborhood councils will also, since their official status depends in the end on the federals. I don't know how they work in Venezuela, but the following describes their formation from the water cooperatives in Bolivia:

"In the eastern zone, for decades there have been water cooperatives in the semi-urban areas of Santa Cruz building wells collectively. Unlike in Cochabamba, where each cooperative has a few dozen or a few hundred families, in Santa Cruz they vary between 6 and 15 thousand hookups, providing water for nearly a million users. Now they have decided to fight not just for water but also for basic services like electricity, natural gas, garbage collection, and decontamination of the rivers.

According to Olivera, “There exists a model of decentralized water management system run by neighborhoods. That model is expanding. The old cooperatives from 20 years ago in the semi-urban zones of Santa Cruz have generated a strong change in the social relations of the city and region. Now one of the most important centers for the National Front is located in Santa Cruz.”

The idea of defining and synthesizing all of these collective and communal management experiences emerged one year ago. It is focused on highlighting alternatives to the public and private models (since they share a strong theme of centralization that discourages social participation) that are, in effect, already functioning. In almost all cases, they are making political demands, like not paying certain taxes (such as certain Santa Cruz cooperatives have done) and demanding regular deliveries of domestic natural gas. Almost all of them seek to change law concerning electricity and potable water."

<http://www.globalpolitician.com/21489-bolivia>

Neighborhoods successfully running essential services in an impoverished country like Bolivia must be a threat to the neocon dogma. I mean, how can the ultra-wealthy get their guaranteed cut like they do with healthcare and just about all the natural monopolies here?

[Judi Lynn]

64. So glad to get a chance to read the article you linked. Thank you. n/t

[knixphan]

132. seconded.

[roody]

26. DU meetup---Venezuela.

December-January

[IsItJustMe]

37. Faux news will rot your brain.

[fla nocount]

65. Really, something you've read or heard? Source please. n/t

[ngant17]

66. The CDRs in Cuba

have developed partially from the need to address terrorist attacks coming from the USA. They have definitely saved Cuban lives and property damage, and have no doubt thwarted hundreds and thousands of violent acts of state-sponsored terrorism which have been fully funded by the US government and their secret agencies.

You have no idea of Cuban reality so you have to keep making up silly stuff (and/or echo the MSM standard propaganda) which no rational and intelligent person will believe in.

[Judi Lynn]

67. They never stop to realize how little they really know, having never stirred themselves to look into

the subject.

It seems so stupid when they sound off about a subject while having no foundation in fact to work from other than the blanket of lies, outlandish gibberish and complete whoppers which have been spread from the first by the very people the Cuban people overthrew who fled to the U.S. to escape retribution by the population.

They've been the ones who started the rumors, kept them going, and adding to them continually, all these years, and they are the ones who ply the politicians with campaign contributions who help them keep their myths in place, and funnel all that taxpayer money to them decade after decade while they control U.S. foreign policy not only toward Cuba but toward all of Latin America.

No one takes the time to consider which politicians have been their champions, and wonder what connects them: Jesse Helms, Tom DeLay, Dan Burton, Robert Torricelli (Got HUGE amounts of money from them, but then, he was corrupt!), Senator Bob Smith, Chris Smith, even the Florida Democrats, unfortunately, who have to share a state with them.

And what a history from those "exile" mutants, like the assassination squads in Operation Condor, the WhiteHouse Burlars in Watergate, the burglars who broke into Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office, blew up the Cubana airliner, killing all 73 passengers on board, including children, over 40 years of violence against Cuba and Cuban nationals in and outside Cuba, murderous assaults and bombings of hotels, trains, factories, department stores, restaurants, discoteques, burning crops, killing livestock, and, according to testimony in New York by Alpha 66 member, Eduardo Arocena, personally carrying into Cuba biological warfare to devastate the Cuban population, countless murders, kidnappings, exiles used in Latin America to teach torture to right-wing military people during the war on Nicaraguans, etc.

Hateful, hateful vicious cretins, and the most imbecilic Americans in the entire country swallow their pathetic bogus, propaganda drool and fancy themselves knowledgeable on Cuban matters.

[High Plains]

81. You want to complain about a system of snitching?

You can start right here at home.

[bitchkitty]

124. Shoot, you can start right here in this thread.

I've had two posts deleted and they weren't even really insulting, not compared to some.

The anti-Chavez brigade are very thin-skinned. They act like Republicans, bullies until you challenge them, then they wail and wring their hands.

[honkydonkey]

87. I think...

that all of these people who are so heavily in love with Chavez, should pack their bags and head on down. At least for a little while. And not to Margarita Island to hang out with Harrison Ford and Tim Robbins...Oh no...I'm talking about where the "real" people live. I think they would change their minds very quickly about how wonderful it is down there. I'm not saying this to be hateful in any way. I just think that the best way for people to learn the truth about things is to live it personally, not to learn much of what they know from heavily edited television footage. Yes, it's cute when he calls Bush satan, etc. but he sure doesn't turn down satans money. LOL.

[ima_sinnic]

115. oh, so you're a big expert who's "lived it personally"? do tell!

I expected more description from someone who's obviously walked the walk in the footsteps of real Venezuelans. Somehow I suspect you're actually full of shit, just like your half-baked, ignorant post.

[honkydonkey]

119. Everyone from Venezuela, please stand up. ha ha.

You are really funny! Are you Venezuelan? I'm not. Have you walked the walk in their footsteps? Do tell.. :)
As I said, I just know what I've heard from my close friend who is a Venezuelan but I suppose you know more about it than he does, right? Half-baked and ignorant? LMAO! The hostility is reaching comic levels now. I suggest that you head to Venezuela as soon as possible. Chavez needs your kind of super intelligent support! ;) VIVA CHAVEZ! As I said before, I'll have Manuel respond to all your raves about St. Hugo if he even feels like he needs to get in this Chavez circle jerk. You can argue with someone who has "walked the walk" but after witnessing how close-minded and hostile some of you are, I wonder if he should even bother. It's not like it's going to make a difference. It's like trying to convince Sarah Palin that hunting for sport is evil. POINTLESS. Peace and good night. I will pray that God will bless me so that I can one day be omniscient like some of you. :P

[leftchick]

12. ditto

Chavez helps the poor and indigent population, The USA helps Corporations with our tax dollars. What a fucking racket!

[aggiesal]

9. He's not a dictator ...

He was democratically elected twice.

And when he tried to become the dictator asking the
Venezuelan Congress to give him presidential powers
for as long as he wanted them, they voted him down.

He has to be elected to maintain his presidency.

Also, he's taken the money from the Oligarchs and
has started distributing it amongst the peasants,
by building more schools in the poorer districts.

Also gas cost less than 1 USD. Approximately 35 cents.

Yes, he is a socialist, and will sell his gasoline
to any country willing to pay his prices.

He even offered to sell heating oil to the poor in
our country when the NE was in a cold spell. But our
government would not allow him to import the heating
oil.

[Kitty Herder]

11. Some people seem to challenged when it comes to the definition of "dictator."

They believe the press when they say the democratically elected (in monitored, fair elections) President of Venezuela is a dictator.

But they believe Bush, who was installed by the Supreme Court is a democratically elected leader.

It boggles the mind.

[flamingdem]

48. I think he did sell subsidized gas to New England two years ago

[TaffyMoon]

13. your republic is highly overrated

[justinaforjustice]

17. Wake Up, It is The U.S. Which Is the Police State Now!

As an American who has been living in Venezuela for the last 18 months, I can attest that this is a truly democratic country. Under Chavez, they actually have honest elections, with automatic recounting of a substantial percentage of votes, unlike the Republican-controlled frauds we have witnessed in the U.S.

Chavez's government provides free health care as a constitutional right, as is the right to unionize, and to free public education to the doctoral level, among many other truly humane social policies.

There are many more newspapers here than in the U.S. and they are free to publish what they like. Unlike the Bush-McCain Republicans which are throwing more and more voters off the voting rolls, Venezuela is increasing real participatory democracy by establishing local community councils where everyone above the age of 16 has the right to vote to control local affairs.

There are no "no fly lists" here and I don't have to worry about border officials seizing my computer or telephone when I enter the country. There are no massive raids to arrest illegal immigrants. There no internment camps being built here to incarcerate dissidents. President Chavez has started no wars, bombed no villages,tortured no prisoners, and is not holding anyone without trial in secret jails.

And President Chavez isn't spending 10 billion a month to keep his defense contractor and oil industry buddies happily profiting from their war profiteering. Instead, the Chavez government is using oil resource profits to improve daily life for Venezuelans and to assist many other countries in improving their infrastructure.

It is time American citizens woke up to just how dangerously fascist our country has become. In comparison, Venezuela is a democratic paradise.

[Jim Sagle]

21. Last time I checked, we haven't had an elected President since January 2001.

So maybe YOU need to figure out the difference.

[hootinholler]

45. Um, would have been Clinton's second term Nov 1996. n/t

[Jim Sagle]

49. And he was President until January 20, 2001.

[stillcool]

22. Why would anyone have to relocate?

We can see the difference right here. It's like day and night since the 2000 Selection.

[roody]

23. If McCain is installed, that is what I'll do.

[Usrename]

29. We are the ones with a despot at the helm, not Venezuela.

I don't think history will bother to compare Bush to the other presidents. He will be compared to other tyrants instead.

Worse than Sadaam Hussein, but not as bad as Hitler, or some such comparison.

Chavez is a giant and a hero.

[honkydonkey]

40. One of my best friends is on a work visa from Hugo Land....

And believe me, there is NOTHING good about what is going on down there. Nothing. Yes, it gives us all a giggle when he makes his nasty comments about Bush. He says things that we would all love to say but that doesn't change the fact that he is an insane douchebag dictator who is dstroying that country. And he doesn't hate Bush as much as he lets on. He's full of shit. Bush has made Chavez a very wealthy man. Law enforcement is a joke. He told me a story about a man breaking into his neighbors home and attacking him. His neighbor shot and killed the man and called the police. The police arrived in a couple of hours (this is in a city too) and say they don't have any proof that the dead man was doing anything wrong so they told his neighbor "give me money and we will leave and come back in one hour. Have the body in the street and we'll say that we found it there, no questions asked". People disappear and are never seen again and nobody even investigates. When people go to the store they buy what is available. Women going without feminine products because Hugo allocates how much each city gets of everything. He rolls in money while his people suffer. There is so many horrible things I could say about this wacko, I don't even know where to begin. I'll have my friend write some examples of what this nut is capable of. Not to mention that he likes to dress up like a demented pirate with a real parrot on his shoulder and the parrot wears a little beret. He also loves hanging with Poppie the clown. Cuckoo! All I can say is that we as Americans have no idea what it is like because we do not live there. Chavez is an unstable, stupid person with way too much money.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[honkydonkey]

94. That's weird, I couldn't tell the difference.

So, since I have a different opinion than you I'm lost and don't belong here? Hmmm, sounds like a republican message board to me. As I said before...you think Chavez is so great and such a wonderful democratic leader...go try living there. The United States is in a royal fuck-a-roo at the moment with eight years of Bush/Cheney and McCain/Palin attempting to extend it even further BUT we've got it made (right now) compared to what is going on down there. And if you decide to leave the country if McSame wins the election (like most of us would like to do) I suggest you head to Venezuela. I think I'll try to pick a place without a crazy, parrot totting idiot as the leader. Maybe that's what Bush needs to complete his wardrobe? Maybe a monkey with a little flag pin stuck on his jacket. Cute.

[EFerrari]

97. Not a fact to be had. What a surprise.

You sound exactly like a Republican, insulting where you can't argue.

Lastima. I've heard too many people who sound just like you and it always turns out that their corrupt family is pissed because now the people have a voice and their labor can't be coerced.

You break my heart.

lol

[honkydonkey]

105. So, if you don't like Chavez, you're a republican? LOL!

You are the one who started being shitty not I. That's why I questioned your hostility. And my corrupt family? WTF? Where the crap did that come from?

And I have a question for you... Do you know anyone from Venezuela personally? Have you been there? Are you an expert on Chavez? See, I came here not claiming to be an expert but as a person who has a loved one who had lived there his whole life and has a very different story about what is happening to HIS country. I have yet to see any *facts* from you. I don't claim to be an expert, I am just telling you what a person is saying from first hand experience and believe me, he's not a republican. LMAO!
I tell you what...I'll tell him to sign up here and you can tell him about how you know more about his country than he does, k? LOL! Some of it will be in spanish but since you are so smart about South American politics, I'm sure you can translate it immediately. Boy, you are thick.

[EFerrari]

110. More insultos. Buena suerte with that. n/t

[honkydonkey]

116. You keep dodging questions with empty accusations. w/e---n/t

[EFerrari]

145. Actually, that's a very fair description of your post,

not an accusation at all.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

95. Some people are tired of

all the newbies that pop up with anecdotes about the horrid ogre Chavez. Anecdotes that defy all published and reputable reports. So I wouldn't take such hostility personally. And if you do, you shouldn't be here.

[honkydonkey]

106. OK

I'm sorry that I'm a newbie and I just happen to have a friend from Venezuela who hates Chavez and what he's doing to his country. As I said to the other guy, I'll just have him sign up himself and you guys can can discuss it with him. He knows far more about it than I do. I just wonder if he'll be attacked for writing his experiences because it doesn't go along with all the documented "facts".

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

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[bitchkitty]

191. From now on,

if you happen to pop up with any more secondhand "knowledge" from your "Venezuelan friend", I'm just going to reply with this link:


The Reality

[honkydonkey]

195. Oh BOY! Is it about Mexico? lol....

Can't wait to see this link and all it's secondhand opinions. LMAO!

[EFerrari]

51. Fail!

[bitchkitty]

61. What a cute little story. n/t

[LanternWaste]

98. Too many other posters on DU with direct experience have a...

Too many other posters on DU with direct experience have a most contrary view than the second-hand anecdotal evidence you've so gallantly presented us with.

[honkydonkey]

107. Isn't it amazing how what one person says is fact....

but if someone disagrees, it becomes second-hand bullcrap. I'll have him address you so it will no longer be second-hand. Maybe you can explain to him how he doesn't know his own country, k? I never claimed to have been an expert in South American politics unlike some of you. And I didn't realize that the people I have been talking to have "direct experience" with Chavez and Venezuela. Could you explain how? Thank you.

[AlphaCentauri]

138. I believe you, I have a Venezuelan friend who was a member of congress for Andres Perez

His family won't even talk about our president because they are so scare that the Bushes would take their US citizenship away. In other words my friend thinks that in the US they have to agree with who ever is president.

Also my friend has a lot of anecdotes, of presidents Carlos Andres Perez, Rafael Caldera, Romulo Betancourt, Herrera, Campis and other politicians like Lucinchi. Even he has a family anecdote about his causing who was committing robberies with a Magnum 357 confronted police and was shot to death. Then the political class try to make it a political drama by blaming Chavez but it did not go no where cos there were enough proof that the felon was committed many robberies the same way.

He has a lot stories from the right wing Miami propaganda machine MARIA ELVIRA LIVE of course my friend is a sympathizer of the Venezuelan opposition but all his arguments are just emotional baseless points.

Wanna see some propaganda in Spanish check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whgATaTpjcM

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=42574027

[Better Believe It]

41. Venezuela Is The Democratic Republic

Guess you just haven't noticed the ongoing attacks on our civil and democratic rights in the United States.

Or you just don't give a damn.

Which is it?

[bitchkitty]

59. Why should he relocate, and who are you to tell

him who he should or should not support?

Good on Chavez, I say! I wish I was there, I'd be cheering him on with the rest of the citizens - the ones who keep electing him in spite of dumb-asses who call him a dictator.

[krkaufman]

63. Ummm... Chavez is democratically elected, and with a higher percentage of the vote ...

... and higher turnout than our elections. (and in elections that were notably less controversial than recent US elections)

You can loathe Chavez, but you'll have to find another argument against him.

[bean fidhleir]

69. Sam Clemens would laugh at you. (nt)

[fascisthunter]

72. maybe you should relocate to another web site

[formercia]

74. We already know what it's like living in a dictatorship, thank you.

Little Lord pissy-pants has shown us the light.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sarcasmo]

111. Who told you this was still a Republic?

On edit: Mr Vader is that you? I see your hobbies are fly fishing.

[SpiralHawk]

3. Yet another FAIL for Commander AWOL, Rice & republicon homelander dip-lunacy

Ptooey on the Republicon Homelanders.

Onward America and Americans.

[Zorro]

14. Hugo wants a US boogeyman to blame for his internal problems

<snip>

Powerful Unions Nettle Chávez

During one of his recent Sunday television shows, President Hugo Chávez picked out one of the program's cameramen and accused him of being a counter-revolutionary, which in the president's socialist-inspired lexicon amounts to committing high treason.

The president's beef: Cameramen at the state television channel receive eight times their regular wage on Sunday, thanks to their union contract. Mr. Chávez complained that greedy unions were endangering the channel's financial health.

The president's own policy spurred the growth of powerful unions. Now the policy appears to have spiraled out of control. State-owned companies, including some recently nationalized by Mr. Chavez, are groaning under the pressure of union demands. Higher wages are feeding inflation and discouraging business investment.

"There's no equilibrium between management and the unions. I'm afraid they now have all the power," said Eduardo Gómez, head of Conindustria, a business group that usually opposes the president...

<snip>

More at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122100491970117265.html

It's a bit amusing to read of an unintended consequence of the "Bolivarian Revolution"...

[cobalt1999]

20. Ding, ding, ding...We have a winner.

When you are a megalomaniac, it helps to have a boogyman.

[IsItJustMe]

38. Yep, Gw's was Iraq. How well did that turn out?

[LeftinOH]

24. You're a breath of fresh air in a room full of 'St Chavez' devotees...

[roody]

27. Going to the DU meetup in Venezuela?

[EFerrari]

52. You mean, hot air.

[Zorro]

71. Now now now

You should know that you don't mess with the Zohan, and Zorro, too.

[EFerrari]

92. I don't enjoy playing with slow children, you're right. n/t

[Zorro]

114. That's good

You'd probably find yourself in trouble if you did.

[Codeine]

46. The mark of Zorro!

Spreading logic across the platitudes of the Chavistas. Well done, sir. :hi:

[EFerrari]

54. The mark of Zorro, pointing out that unions have thrived under Chavez?

lol

[Zorro]

118. Thriving unions are good

I'm hoping they thrive even more as they demand wage increases from the nationalized industries.

[EFerrari]

53. Unintended consequences like strong unions? You're hilarious.

:rofl:

[Zorro]

117. Yes I find it very amusing, too

Attacking unions as counterrevolutionaries is really going to go over well with the rank and file.

[clear eye]

62. Umm, how is that blaming the U.S.?

It sounds like you're talking about growing pains in newly reorganized economy, and Chavez is complaining about unions which are not U.S. sponsored. But he doesn't jail their leaders, and he won't impose the WTO austerity measures to get "business investment" which have devastated the living standards of working people globally.

My guess is they'll work out the beef w/unions who are unrealistic about what their economy can support.

None of this means that Chavez hasn't gotten wind of actual U.S. efforts to destabilize Venezuela. This comes on the heels of a U.S. delivery company, DHS, demanding to personally inspect the security measures in Venezuelan airports, despite their already having been passed by the international monitoring agency. What government would tolerate such behavior?

[Zorro]

70. In case you missed this nugget in the link at the start of this thread

<snip>

..."That's enough ... from you, Yankees," Chavez said, using an expletive. Waving his fists in the air, he added: "I hold the government of the United States responsible for being behind all the conspiracies against our nations!"...

<snip>

Sounds to me like Hugo is preemptively blaming the US boogeyman for his current and future problems.

I think union militancy will become a bigger headache for him as time goes on, especially in those industries that have been taken over by the government. No doubt he'll continue to blame US provocateurs and label union leaders as traitors to the cause.

[clear eye]

85. It sounds like he is blaming the U.S. for its destabilization attempts

I don't understand how you get anything more from that quote. He didn't say anything about the U.S. hurting his economy or anything else. You are so biased that you hear things that aren't there.

[Zorro]

112. So how about reading this with a clear eye open this time

"I hold the government of the United States responsible for being behind all the conspiracies against our nations!"...

That would sound to most people as if Hugo is preemptively placing any blame on what is happening or may happen on a US boogeyman.

Sorry if you can't understand plain English.

[LanternWaste]

99. WSJ quotes a businessman. Color me surprised.

WSJ quotes a businessman who appears mad that the free market doesn't control everything. What a surprise! No-- really! Who would have though it?

[Zorro]

113. Indeed! Who would have though it?

Not me. I guess I just don't "though" things like you.

[bitchkitty]

131. Spelling cop?

A sign that your argument is weak.

[trthnd4jstc]

15. One of the Few Positives of the BushCo Foreign Policy is that Latin America has...

been pretty much left alone. There have been far fewer CIA involvements in Latin America since President Coup de etat has been in office. I hope that Latin America gains freedom from the murderous methods of the Army School of the Americas. I hope the CIA can never again overturn another peoples elected government. I also hope that all of the War Criminals in our country would be indicted and imprisoned. Big Hope There.

I do not like that this diplomatic problem is happening. A Barack Obama presidency should repair a lot of the Damage that our War Criminals have caused. Indicting and imprisoning them, and apologizing to the world would help also.

[rucky]

18. Duddy is a graduate of the National War College

never heard of it, but it sounds like a peachy path to an ambassadorship under Bush.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/91891.htm

NATIONAL WAR COLLEGE

According to Lieutenant General Leonard T. Gerow, President of the Board which recommended its formation,<2>
“ The College is concerned with grand strategy and the utilization of the national resources necessary to implement that strategy... Its graduates will exercise a great influence on the formulation of national and foreign policy in both peace and war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_University

Again, Chavez is probably right to be a bit paranoid.

[Judi Lynn]

28. FACTBOX-Five low points in U.S.-Venezuela relations

FACTBOX-Five low points in U.S.-Venezuela relations
Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:06pm EDT

(Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a fierce critic of the Bush administration, stepped up his confrontation with the United States on Thursday, expelling the U.S. ambassador and ordering a reduction in flights to Venezuela by U.S. airlines.

The following are previous low points in diplomatic relations between the superpower and one of its largest oil suppliers:

* Chavez threatened earlier this year to cut off oil sales to the United States, its main customer, accusing Washington of seeking to invade the South American country. He has repeatedly warned he could halt oil exports, but never carried out the threat.

* In a jab at American business interests, Chavez nationalized major oil projects owned by U.S. oil giants, including Exxon Mobil last year, setting off multibillion dollar legal battles.

* In a 2006 speech to the United Nations General Assembly, Chavez called President George W. Bush "the devil," drawing widespread condemnation from U.S. lawmakers. He has also called Bush a "donkey," a "drunkard" and a "coward."

More:
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN119718520080912?rpc=401&

[loser_user]

188. Thank you Judi Lynn!

I'm a shy person who never has much to say so I mainly lurk and read, but I as a historian whose primary focus is on South America(although mainly the Southern Cone nations) I'm always happy to see your posts as they are a breath of fresh air, at least in my opinion. :)

[santamargarita]

30. President Hugo Chavez says US ambassador has 72 hours to leave Venezuela

Source: Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- President Hugo Chavez ordered the U.S. ambassador to leave Venezuela in 72 hours and said he was immediately withdrawing his ambassador from Washington.

Chavez said Thursday night that U.S. Ambassador Patrick Duddy is no longer welcome, just as his close ally Bolivia expelled the American envoy from La Paz a day earlier.

"They're trying to do here what they were doing in Bolivia," Chavez said, accusing Washington of trying to oust him.

"That's enough ... from you, Yankees," he said during a televised rally, using an expletive.

The socialist leader said Venezuela's ambassador to Washington, Bernardo Alvarez, would return to the U.S. "when there's a new government in the United States."

The move by Chavez brings relations with Washington to a new low and raises questions about whether the diplomatic clash could hurt trade. Venezuela is the fourth-largest oil supplier to the United States, and Chavez threatened on Thursday to cut off crude shipments "if there's any aggression against Venezuela."

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VENEZUELA_US?SITE=OKPON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[gratuitous]

31. Another triumph for Commander Bunnypants' foreign policy

Can we afford another four years of Bunnypants, Part Deux? Lippier, snippier, trippier.

[bitchkitty]

125. This time it would be Commander Poopypants. n/t

[liberalmuse]

32. Has anyone else got that...

Bush has been brewing something with Venezuela lately? I've read a few news articles, but can't place them now. They sort of alarmed me.

[Nambe]

47. Bush and Cheney have both been openly threatening other powers.

In this era, war means $billions a week for the oil/dod corporations. The Iraq war is winding down and they may loose direct control of Washington. If they are dedicated to perpetual war as Ike and I believe, they will do anything to get a new war started.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

55. There aren't enough drama queens on this thread. lol

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorro]

148. Hello

Are you looking for a little special attention?

If so, you should be careful what you wish for.

[High Plains]

83. You and your sick wishful thinking again.

Just skedaddle on over to Joe McCarthy Underground, where you belong.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

126. You really DO want him to get killed, don't you? And Evo too, don't you?

[aquart]

34. Great. Now we're going to war with South America.

George, I know it's too late for you to learn, but Chavez has oil. You know, oil. You need to treat him like the Saudis. Kiss. Hug. Offer him movie stars.

[madrchsod]

35. he`s hedging his bet

caribou barbie wins he`ll sell to china and if barack wins it`s business as usual. selling gasoline cheaper than anyone else in the midwest

[Pavulon]

39. China can not refine nor

can he direct sell. Markets dont work that way. Oil is a global pool. However an oil pimp can find himself in trouble when his product drops in value quickly.

[EFerrari]

90. Wow. That's just disgusting. n/t

[Pavulon]

91. The Messiah in red sells oil

that is his job. Unlike his counterparts in the UAE he does not kick down the money evenly he spreads it out for support.

He runs a petro state.

One would think he has actually contributed to a greater good by reading posts here. All he has done is talk shit about the US to wind up his base.

[EFerrari]

93. You don't know anything about Venezuela or about Chavez, do you?

And, can't you come up with any criticism that isn't in Freeper?

Good grief.

[Pavulon]

96. Been 4 times over 6 years

to do business with international manufacturers there. Not petro companies. Lots of companies make stuff there.

I can read and follow the news. Chavez runs an OIL state like the UAE.

It is impoverished, dangerous, and you would not be happy living there.

You would find that something like a PET scan or most of what you could find and John Hopkins is not there, or not available to you unless you leave the country.

Now he is bringing in Russian influence, he is a puppet, in an ongoing spat.

And 60 years of history of US actions in LA make his actions dangerous.

This is covered in many books, Legacy of Ashes is a simple one to start reading.

[EFerrari]

128. John Hopkins is not available to most Americans.

And being this close to the United States makes all of Latin America dangerous.

[struggle4progress]

43. U.S., Venezuelan, Bolivian ambassadors go home in confrontation

Posted on Thu, Sep. 11, 2008
By PHIL GUNSON
Special to The Miami Herald

CARACAS -- President Hugo Chávez on Thursday gave the U.S. ambassador 72 hours to leave the country after Washington expelled Bolivia's ambassador in retaliation for the expulsion of the American ambassador in La Paz the previous day.
''In response to unwarranted actions and in accordance with the Vienna Convention (on diplomatic protocol), we have officially informed the government of Bolivia of our decision to declare Ambassador Gustavo Guzman persona non grata,'' State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

The three-way diplomatic confrontation comes amid increasing violence in Bolivia and accusations by both South American countries of U.S. involvement with groups that oppose the leftists governments.

Chávez said his decision to boot U.S. Ambassador Patrick Duddy was in solidarity with Bolivian President Evo Morales -- a key ally -- who expelled U.S. Ambassador Philip Goldberg ...

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/683025.html

[struggle4progress]

44. Leftist Latin America dealing challenges to US (AFP)

... Bolivian President Evo Morales, a close ally of Chavez's, had on Wednesday ordered the US ambassador to his country, Philip Goldberg, expelled for allegedly stoking separatist sentiment among opposition governors seeking autonomy ...

Morales is currently grappling with violent unrest in rebel states which Thursday left at least four people dead.

Argentina's Kirchner expressed support for Morales in his troubles -- and also added to the rhetoric piling up on the doorstep of the US government ...

The United States also has been miffed by Nicaragua's recent decision to recognize two rebel Georgian provinces ...

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxU6tHJeHWsKOBYqqWIYeK6dHSIA

[Imagevision]

58. No biggie, Chavez will invite him back after Obama is elected...

[mwooldri]

68. Why did I have to hear this first on BBC World Service???

**NOTHING** on NPR Morning Edition.

[fascisthunter]

73. Good for Him.... if Venezuela did this shit in America...exactly

shut up hypocrites

[lib2DaBone]

76. Alleging Coup Plot.. Chavez ousts U.S. Envoy

Source: NYT

President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela said Thursday that he was expelling the American ambassador, Patrick Duddy, giving him 72 hours to leave the country. Mr. Chávez took this step after he said his government had discovered an American-supported plot by military officers to topple him.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/world/americas/13bolivia.html?ref=world

---

Is Venezuela next door to Alaska? Well then.. it's all good.

[Bob Dobbs]

77. They hate us for our freedom.

Well, that and our murderous fascist imperialism.

[FreakinDJ]

78. Bush out there making friends again

[Peace Patriot]

79. The Bushite/Corpo 'news' disinformation about South America is pretty awesome.

They have succeeded at smearing/demonizing Hugo Chavez as a "dictator," and at sullying the reputations of three other democratically elected, leftist presidents, who are allied with him, Rafael Correa of Ecuador, Evo Morales of Bolivia and Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner of Argentina. Dictators, tyrants, "terrorist lovers," communists, Castro-lovers, corrupt, "anti-U.S."--an incoherent, contradictory set of false charges aimed at planting vague, unfactual negative impressions of leaders who are, in truth, not only legitimately elected and running scrupulously lawful governments, but also are very popular and very good for their countries and for South America. The psyops, dirty tricks, lies, disinformation, funding of rightwing groups, destabilization efforts, Corpo and rightwing/fascist vitriol, fascist thuggery, sowing of confusion, and stoking of secessionist/civil war plots have been very intense.

The disinformation helps put our people to sleep. It's very difficult, without a lot of effort, to know what's really going on in South America. The South Americans know. Brazil's president, Lula da Silva, for instance, recently said, of Chavez: "You can criticize Chavez on a lot of things, but not on democracy." Brazil and Argentina just announced they are going off the U.S. dollar. They are closely allied with Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia, and the other leftist democracies (virtually the whole continent), and are swiftly moving toward a South American "Common Market" (UNASUR), with Brazil proposing a common defense as well. Neither thing--the common market or the common defense--includes the U.S. But we don't hear anything about Chavez being pro-democracy, and little or nothing about positive economic/political developments and about MAJORITY South American opinion in the U.S. Our 'news' is heavily censored and skewed toward Corpo/fascist opinion, and we are much too dependent on it. This is very evident at DU--a supposed leftist blog--where ignorance about the awesome democracy movement in South America is endemic, and where Freeper fascists freely roam, sowing lies.

It's interesting that the fuckwads who have hijacked the U.S. government and their colluders in the Corpo 'news' monopolies bother to propagandize us so heavily. We have no power any more, as a democratic people, to control our affairs, foreign or domestic--although the one thing that our Democratic Congress (single digit approval rating!) has done right is to heed labor unions' objections to the Colombia 'free trade' deal. More than forty union leaders have been murdered by the Colombian military/death squads this year alone, funded with $6 BILLION of our tax dollars through Bushite fingers. Colombia is the outlier--the dinosaur--of the continent, so naturally that's the Bushites' favorite country. They have the same view of union leaders as the Colombian fascists do ('the only good union leader is a dead union leader"). It may be that this vitally important Corpo economic warfare weapon--the Colombia/U.S. 'free trade' deal--is why they have engaged in such intense psyops to brainwash our people here. But I fear worse than this. I fear that it is a preliminary to war--similar to the prewar psyops about WMDs and Al Qaeda in Iraq. Traditionally, psyops are a weapon against the enemy in wartime. To Bushites, we are the enemy. We are the victim of psyops by our own government and its Corpo 'news' lapdogs (and war profiteers).

There is considerable evidence that the Bushfucks are planning--and, indeed, have already begun to execute--an oil war in South America. They only have four months left in office (hopefully), so, I think we should be aware that they may strike Venezuela soon. The plan is likely to act in support of a fascist cabal in the oil rich Venezuelan state of Zulia, on the Caribbean, who will attempt to secede from Venezuela (as the Bush-backed white separatists are trying to do, currently, in Bolivia). It will be played as an "independence" movement (as in Bolivia)--just some nice, white, 'pro-American' businessfolk who don't like "dictator Chavez."

In his Dec 07 op-ed in the Washington Pest, Donald Rumsfeld urges "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. I think this is what he means. And I think this is why the Bushwhacks recently reconstituted the U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean, which is now roaming around off the coast of Zulia, Venezuela. The overarching plan is to split off the oil rich provinces of Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia (gas and oil) into fascist mini-states for the multinationals to plunder. Bolivia is a problem, because it is landlocked, and the staging area for U.S. "support" of the white separatists in the gas/oil rich eastern provinces--Paraguay--was just removed, by the election of a leftist president in Paraguay--who recently warned of a military coup plot against his fledgling government. For now, though, the Bushfucks are somewhat stymied as to how to support the white separatists in Bolivia. They have been meeting with them, and funding and 'training' them--which is why Evo Morales just threw Philip Goldberg (Bushwhack U.S. ambassador) out of Bolivia. But more direct military support has become problematic. Bolivia is surrounded by leftist democracies.

But Venezuela and Ecuador are not. They are actually more vulnerable, and the more important Bushite targets. The Bolivia civil war plan may be more to weaken their ally Bolivia, and a test case or distraction. Venezuela and Ecuador are members of OPEC, have lots and lots of oil, have leftist governments, are both adjacent to Colombia (Bush Cartel client state, $6 BILLION in military aid), and have long, vulnerable coastlines, with Venezuela's on the Caribbean. Rafael Correa, president of Ecuador, has pledged to throw the U.S. military base out of Ecuador when its lease expires in early 2009 (about 500 known U.S. troops, run by Dyncorp, high tech surveillance of all of these countries--possibly participated in the illegal Colombian bombing/raid on Ecuador earlier this year).

Correa has also said publicly that the Bushites have a three-country secession/civil war strategy--in Bolivia, Venezuela and Ecuador. And there is evidence of the coordination of these fascist cabals (as with Plan Condor in the 1980s--the U.S. networked the fascists who were torturing and murdering thousands of leftists in multiple countries). Finally, the Betancourt 'rescue' last month revealed that the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia, has a "war room," with direct video from the field during military operations. It's likely that both the bombing/raid on Ecuador and the Betancourt 'rescue' were U.S.-directed ops, using U.S. military personnel (or Blackwater), and were rehearsals for war against Venezuela and Ecuador.

Venezuela is adjacent to Colombia to the north, with Zulia on the Caribbean (and adjacent to Colombia). Ecuador is adjacent to Colombia to the south, with a long coast on the Pacific and the U.S. base at Manta. (I'm not sure where the oil is, in Ecuador--but I presume it's in the northwest, near the coast, and near the Manta base. That's where Correa said the fascists were holding meetings.)

Although a war plan, and tested out systems, appear to be in place, it does seem rather fantastic to imagine this war plan maturing before Bush/Cheney leave office. Enter Rumsfeld, who evidenced quite a bit of interest/involvement in South America last December. What has he been doing since he 'resigned' (possibly because his war on Iran was nixed by the U.S. military--and China)? He could well be marshalling private military forces (including billions stolen from us in Iraq) to conduct a private oil war in South America, using Blackwater, the Colombian paramilitary death squads, local fascist militias, and, if he can get it, some kind of U.S. "gunboat" support, or, at least, the U.S. looking the other way.

If the Corpos decide to permit Obama's election (for their own nefarious reasons), Bush/Cheney could hand him a 'war-in-progress' (as the CIA/Miami mafia tried to do to JFK with the "Bay of Pigs" invasion of Cuba). Or, Rumsfeld could hand him an even stickier mess, with private armies. If they go with another nazi boots presidency--McCain/Palin--then Bush/Cheney can start Oil War II now, and they will finish it. They may fail in Bolivia (because of the logistics situation), and they may even fail to net Ecuador, but the grand prize is Zulia, because it's on the Caribbean, where the Pukes in the White House, using our military, can try to create a leftist-free zone of U.S. hegemony in the Central America/Caribbean region.

In Central America, leftists are leading in the polls in El Salvador and Panama, which will likely elect leftists presidents in late 2008/early 2009. Nicaragua elected the leftist Sandinistas recently. Guatemala elected its first progressive government, ever (in sympathy with the social justice goals of the Bolviarians). Mexico came within a hairsbreath--0.05%--of electing a leftist president, recently--and if the Corpo/'free trade' president keeps pushing the privatization of Mexico's oil, Mexico will for certain elect the leftist in the next election cycle. Also, Honduras (Reaganite death squad staging area, in the 1980s) recently flipped the Bushfucks off, and joined the Bolivarian trade group, ALBA.

So, U.S. hegemony in the Central America/Caribbean region may be a very dicey business. One of the goals of grabbing Zulia would be to STIFLE this trend in Central America--to prevent the Bushite/fascist disaster that has struck South America: real democracy! Exxon Mobil gets Venezuela's oil. Venezuela gets deprived of much of its revenue (education, medical care, local/regional development and all the other benefits of that oil taken away). Latin America is in turmoil. The voters in countries like El Salvador, Panama and Mexico are scared off (or their elections are stolen, and the narrative is that they "chose" U.S. domination). And Obama or McBush can keep the U.S. "gunboats" active to keep this region in the U.S. (Corpo) "sphere of influence." Obama might be nicer about it--but we shouldn't kid ourselves that he can oppose the Corpos in any significant way.

I don't know what will happen. No one does. Our government is extremely secretive and entirely out of our control. They could do anything--nuke Iran, nuke Russia, nuke Venezuela--and what could we do about it? Insane greed prevails. They may be checkmated on Iran (making Venezuela an even more tempting target), by China holding our enormous debt paper, or whatever (U.S. military doesn't know how it could "occupy" Iran?), but that doesn't mean they won't do insane things anyway, or choose the easiest, from a number of insane "get the oil" options that they have set up. Of all of them, Venezuela's Zulia province is the most vulnerable, least defended oil resource on earth, and it's right in our own hemisphere, not far from Florida. (Why do you think Chavez has invited Russia to engage in military maneuvers in the Caribbean? It's a warn-off!)

So, here we sit--with Diebold & brethren still in complete, 'TRADE SECRET' control of our election machines. I think the Oil War is about to be brought home to this hemisphere. Bolivia and Venezuela ejecting the U.S. ambassadors may be a signal that this new oil war is going to be upon us sooner rather than later. Yesterday, after Bolivia threw Philip Goldberg out, I predicted that other South American countries would likely follow suit. Venezuela has now done the same, in protest of Goldberg's activities in Bolivia. And Argentina and Nicaragua are making noises that they might also cut off diplomatic relations with the U.S. It's possible they all will (except Colombia, and Peru--where the Bushbot 'free tradist' has a 20% approval rating, is likely to get ousted by the leftist, but is still in power).

Here is the list of leftist countries (or center-left and strong allies of the leftists): Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia (the core Bolivarian states), Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay (all strongly allied), and Chile (weakly allied). And, further north, Nicaragua (strongly allied). Any one of these could be next to cut off diplomatic relations with the Bushwhacks over their activities in Bolivia. The white separatists in Bolivia are blowing up gas pipelines, for godssakes. They are terrorists--funded by our tax dollars. Brazil and Argentina depend on that gas. They are not going to sit around and do nothing while Bushwhack operatives blow up their pipelines.

Something else might happen, though--a diplomatic effort by some of these countries (Brazil a likely leader of it), to get the Bushwhacks to back the fuck off on their civil war/destabilization plans in Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela. "You can criticize Chavez on a lot things, but not on democracy." (--Lula da Silva) It's not just democracy in Venezuela that Chavez has been a champion of, but democracy--empowerment, sovereignty, dignity, strength, a sense of self-worth and self-determination--for all the other people of South America, and for their leaders. Chavez was the first to stand up and say "no more!" He empowers them all. These countries are now more united than they have ever been, in the history of South America. They smell freedom. They may not have great armies, but they do have a unifying idea--the sovereignty of Latin American countries--and have made great strides toward realizing it. They have bargaining power, because of Chavez. They have increasing unity because of Chavez and the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela and its many supporters. And they may be able to get the Bush junta to stand down. Let's hope they succeed--since we, the once sovereign people of the U.S., are powerless to do so.

[redqueen]

80. Maybe that's why the disinformation seems to be coming out fast and furious now...

the growing unity and power among leftist governments isn't something our out-of-control-capitliast, anti-democratic government is accustomed to tolerating for very long.

[Peace Patriot]

82. This is the irony, the joy and the danger of what's happening in South America.

It really is a democracy movement, and a very successful one. Chavez really is one of the key leaders of this democracy movement. He is not a "dictator." That is a Bushwhack/Corpo psyops LIE. And it is an essential lie for stealing Venezuela's oil--which is why it is so worrisome. The Bushwhacks claim to be for "democracy," so they can't have it be known that they are plotting against a real democrat with a small d. They have been unable to prevent us from knowing that Venezuela holds transparent elections. Most people know that. But they keep hammering away--'Big Lie' style (repeat it enough and it becomes true)--that he is, somehow, still a "dictator," or a wannabe "dictator," or "increasingly authoritarian"--all with no factual basis whatsoever. Every allegation against him falls apart, upon even superficial research. He's been running a VERY democratic, scrupulously lawful, beneficial government for ten years, has been twice elected (most recently with 63% of the vote), defeated a (Bush-U.S. taxpayer-funded) recall, and has maintained a steady course through numerous destabilization efforts and an outright (Bush-backed) coup attempt.

He has not done this with repression. No one is repressed in Venezuela. His government, if anything, has been too lenient against coup plotters, and USAID-funded and 'trained,' rightwing 'student' thugs. He doesn't need to be repressive, and has no inclination to be. The only entity he has "dictated" to is Exxon Mobil, who threw a shit-fit over Venezuela getting a 60/40 cut of its own oil profits. Chavez won that fight as well. He is acting in the interest of his people, as he was elected to do, and his government has encouraged maximum citizen participation in government and politics. Venezuela has one of the best democracies in the western hemisphere, and very possibly in the world.

But he is just one man, one leader. The Bushwhack/Corpo focus on him is obsessive, and it is another form of psyops. Personalize the conflict--ignore the millions and millions of people who have created, and who support, the Boliviarian revolution--demonize a key leader, Chavez--and ignore (or attempt to "divide and conquer") the many other leaders in South America who are allied with him, and who know that he a democrat--and try to take him out, or topple him, to demoralize all of these other people--ordinary citizens and leaders.

Real democracy in South America means a lot of things. It means the oil--which they have lots and lots of--is being used to benefit the people. The Corpos are also profiting, but they don't just want to profit--they want all the profit, and complete domination of these countries. It means evicting World Bank/IMF loan sharks. It means that first world financiers, corporations and resource extractors have to operate on a "level playing field," have to respect the sovereignty of these countries, have to compete, and have to obey the rules. If there is anything the Corpos hate more than democracy itself, it is national sovereignty. They try to bust it wherever it is asserted. That is what they mean by "globalisation"--that they--these basically stateless multinational behemoths, who are loyal to no one--hold sway over national governments which then cannot act in the interest of their people. And if they are democratic, this means destroying their democracy. And if the Corpos can't do so by buying politicians--as they have been unable to do in most of South America--they will do it by other means, including violence.

South America's assertion of democracy, and sovereignty, is a very dangerous thing--dangerous like our own revolutionaries' assertion against the British Empire was. But the South Americans have the Bushwhacks by the short hairs, in many ways. The Bushwhacks claim to be for democracy (thus their intense disinformation campaign to create the impression that Chavez is a "dictator"). They claim that 'free trade' is good for everybody and is somehow equivalent with "democracy"--though most of South America knows this to be a goddamn lie. They are running out of money, troops and time. They have no credibility in the world, and certainly none in most of South America. They are mass murderers, torturers, and colossal hypocrites. But they may be under some kind of Corpo pressure (immunity for war crimes?) to get South America back under Corpo control, or at least to grab some of the oil, and reverse the leftist trend in Central America.

This makes democracy and sovereignty dangerous assertions. We DUers should be applauding the courage of the South Americans--and some of us do. But too many of us don't have a clue what is going on, and some of us are blind, stupid or collusive (for reasons unknown). It is beyond me to understand how bloggers at Democratic Underground can call Chavez as "assclown," or an "oil pimp," or a "dictator"--or any of the demeaning and slanderous terms they use. They sound just like Bushites. They are furthering the Bushite Corpo/fascist agenda. They are helping to keep our people STUPID.

We should be having a "Bolivarian revolution" here. We really need one. I think it will happen, but I'm afraid that it is a ways off, and there may be a lot of suffering, by us and others, in the meantime, before the U.S. re-joins the experiment of democracy that was started by our own Founders.

[redqueen]

84. You're right... we should be having this kind of revolution here...

Maybe this is also aimed at keeping public sentiment of this kind of movement down, so as to try to prevent any such movement from gaining much momentum.

I'd really like to have election monitors here... just like Venezuela had.

[clear eye]

101. Jimmy Carter works w/ a group that monitors elections, and he said,

when asked what his group would make of the U.S. elections these days, that they would not agree to monitor the U.S. elections unless the procedures were improved. In other words that our election integrity is lower than that of the 3rd world countries which his group does monitor.

Political scientists have long accepted it as a given that the powers that be in the U.S. only accepted limited unionization and worker benefits since the 1930's because of the pressure of comparisons with what was being offered under the Soviet system. Now that they're gone, an important counterbalance to the subjugation of working people to their former, pre-Great Depression conditions is as well.

[clear eye]

100. Thank you. This is exactly what I find so disturbing about

Obama's conviction that support for the current global trade agreements is more intelligent and sophisticated than opposition. Which is what I gathered from his statement that white blue-collar workers cling to "trade" as a diversion from and soothingly simplistic explanation for what really is harming them.

"That is what they mean by "globalisation"--that they--these basically stateless multinational behemoths, who are loyal to no one--hold sway over national governments which then cannot act in the interest of their people."

[struggle4progress]

102. US expels Venezuelan ambassador

By Washington correspondent Mark Simkin
Posted 36 minutes ago

... First Bolivia accused the United States of instigating violent anti-government protests and kicked out the American ambassador.

Then Bolivia's ally, Venezuela, did the same thing.

A US State Department spokesman, Sean McCormack, says the United States will now expel Venezuela's envoy ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/13/2363546.htm?section=world

[Judi Lynn]

103. Isn't that silly? Venezuela recalled its ambassador yesterday, maybe earlier. It was covered

in articles we read yesterday, in connection to their expulsion of the U.S. scum ambassador, the last in a chain of filthy _Bush appointees to Venezuela. The last two left after making total asses of themselves.

Fact: Venezuela RECALLED ITS AMBASSADOR FIRST, formally, well before the corporate media could start yammering _Bush "kicked out" the guy. They're trying to rewrite history to gull those who didn't read the real story first.

[struggle4progress]

104. *snork*

:rofl:

... Chavez .. said a new American ambassador will not be welcome in Caracas "until there's a U.S. government that respects the people of Latin America" .... Holding up a watch to check the time, Chavez declared: "From this moment, the Yankee ambassador in Caracas has 72 hours to leave Venezuela!" He told his foreign minister to recall Venezuela's ambassador to Washington, Bernardo Alvarez, "before they kick him out of there" ...

Venezuela's Chavez says US ambassador must leave (AP)
By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iXp7kZBY1LarAJ4_qn0KwWPOwznQD934V1A00

[IndianaGreen]

120. Adios Yanquis!

Bush's ambassador was an ally of the elites. I support the Venezuelan people and hate the Venezuelan elites with the same passion I hate the American ruling class.

[SCBeeland]

122. And you wonder why McCain shot up in polls?

I said I was leaving here awhile ago, but that was before Palin was chosen. I decided to come back for the sole reason that I believe Palin, even as VP, would mark the end of America and quite possibly human civilization.

But anyway, I'm seeing a LOT of Chavez support in this topic, and I don't understand why. You've every right to support Chavez, if that's what you seriously believe, but to come here and flat-out attack someone simply because they're anti-Chavez is absolute suicide.

There are MANY people, especially in the South, who could easily support Obama and help him win this election, but those same people are not going to think kindly of someone supporting Hugo Chavez for what he's done to Venezuela. Do any of you have the slightest clue of how life in Venezuela is for people? How many businessmen have left that country, never to come back? If I owned a business, why on earth would I be interested in Venezuela, after hearing all the stories of people flat-out having their second home stolen from them by the socialist government? Having their possessions flat-out stolen? The Americans who disagree with Hugo Chavez, especially here in the Southeast red-states, don't do it because they're dumb rednecks, they do it because they do not ever want to have to be afraid that the government will take what they've worked their whole lives for. As long as Democrats and liberals show even the slightest support for socialism, we will never again see another Democrat in the White House, I can tell you that, and for very good reason.

[bemildred]

123. I don't see what that has to do with Obama.

Unless all those people you talk about are watching us and think that because some of us support both Obama and Chavez, then Obama supports Chavez, or what? I don't see how you connect the two.

[EFerrari]

130. It has nothing to do with Obama. The Republicans keep calling him

a socialist because their base has no idea what that word means. It just sounds 'way bad. lol

[bemildred]

135. But the poster says WE caused it?

WE caused people to get so upset about our attitude towards Chavez the socialist that they decided to not support Obama? Where is the connection there? Is this some sort of guilt by association? Obama is tainted by our support?

One might almost think that he wants us to shutup and is flailing around for reasons.

[EFerrari]

139. Obama may be tainted by my support but I'm still disappointed

he's not a socialist. :)

[ohio2007]

144. Barrack isn't as vocal on these issues. MSM never seems to cover him speaking his own mind. That

could be a reason BHO's #'s didn't shoot up in the polls when these knee jerk stories break.

why is he being so timid about taking sides for the media to give him equal time?

maybe it's because he parrots the repogs stand.?

[EFerrari]

159. Can you say more about how you think Obama parrots the right wing?

Are there any liberals that have your approval?

[bitchkitty]

127. That's so sad.

Show no support for socialism in order to get elected? Act like Republicans so we can live here? So we get what, a few social programs that will be woefully underfunded, and capitalism as usual?

I won't lay down for some ninny who is afraid of the word socialism, or who joins in the Venezuela bashing because they're afraid not to. How freaking sad.

[EFerrari]

129. LOL!

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

133. Please educate DU'ers on what Hugo Chavez has taken from those poor Venezuelan bidnessmen.

Feel free to go get those links you have to substantiate, confirm, and celebrate your insights.

We'll be waiting to read them, and learn how ignorant we have been.

Or are you accusing people of being closet criminals who want to swipe that precious material wealth real heroes work so hard to accumulate?

We need to see some proof that Hugo Chavez takes personal property of citizens from them and strips them of their wealth.

Supply the foundation for your charges, educate your "fellow" Democrats.

[ohio2007]

136. Venezuela's Bonds Tumble After Chavez Expels U.S. Ambassador

Venezuela's Bonds Tumble After Chavez Expels U.S. Ambassador
snip
Investors dumped Venezuelan debt as Chavez also recalled his ambassador from Washington yesterday in a show of support for his Bolivian counterpart Evo Morales. A day earlier, Morales expelled the top U.S. envoy after accusing him of backing regional leaders seeking more autonomy. The U.S. is the biggest buyer of Venezuelan oil, which accounts for 90 percent of the South American country's exports.

Chavez's actions ``usually wouldn't matter, but in this environment it makes people even more scared about Venezuela,'' said Edwin Gutierrez, who manages $5.5 billion in emerging-market debt in London at Aberdeen Asset Management.



snip
Venezuela's bonds plunged in May on speculation the U.S. State Department may put the Chavez government on its state sponsors of terrorism list, which would force U.S. investors to sell their holdings of the country's securities, because of its alleged ties with the FARC.

Bonds issued by state-owned oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA also tumbled today.

snip

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=auIX2ivZjLzQ&refer=latin_america

Hugo will have to announce another thwarted coup attempt,most likely with roots in the US if financial picture in his country get squeezed by his direct actions.
Sure glad when Obama becomes president, Hogo will like us again

http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/kZfglOJVhExGbFLq5C

[EFerrari]

141. The taped conversation between the plotters is posted to the net.

Unlike our own government, Chavez doesn't seem to have a problem with secrecy.

[ohio2007]

142. Guess thats why he owns the phone co. To make sure there are no secrets

you have to employ listeners.

Chavez doesn't seem to have a problem with secrecy ?

How did Hugo even know which calls needed listening to? I can't wait til the trial lawyers try to defend them on state owned TV.

unless they have confessed on their own ;) it will be evident in 2012 there will be nobody but Hugo in position of being presidente

he does have and will be the only one with the experience to be presidente

[EFerrari]

143. So, is it your opinion that Chavez should just stick his neck out

and take the bullet? That Venezuela has no right to defend herself against destabilization?

That's ridiculous. lol

[ohio2007]

147. stick his neck out ? You are sure it isn't all in his head . He's got Russian jets and ships

to cover his ass for the next "Rule by Decree" powers. With about one year left, what type of absolute power is he going after with his next move ?
We know how Venezuela voted agaist one certain rule but that vote must have been 'rigged' by
'outsiders'

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Sthp75epXzA
oh

but the 'Yanki's are out to "GET HIM", as explained by hugo, so we left him no other choice but to ("X" future Rule by Decree action here )

[Judi Lynn]

150. He's so paranoid Colombia's DAS head, Jorge Noguero was found to be deeply involved

in an assassination plot against Chavez, along with members of the Venezuelan opposition, and Colombia's President Álvaro Uribe had to make a public apology, and meet with Chavez in a six hour conference while they thrashed it all out.

As for "absolute power," the powers available to him were restricted to several areas only, and for a limited time frame. He had used this arrangement earlier in his Presidency, which went off without anyone capitalizing on making a propaganda circus with it.

You seem to be unfamiliar with the fact previous Venezuelan Presidents have also used this arrangement, without any objection whatsoever from the corporate media, as they were popular with American interests, and that Peruvian President Alan Garcia, a contemporary of Chavez, has used the power very conspicuously without one peep from the corporate media, and NO shrieking idiots trying to use it for propaganda purposes.

Your attempt to claim the appearance of Russian ships in the Caribbean has anything to do with a future bid for extended powers is comical. He would simply ask his national assembly to vote on it.

Couldn't possibly be LESS connected.

[High Plains]

151. Instead of worrying about Venezuela going commie...

...you might want to worry about Ohio going Republican.

[EFerrari]

152. Yes, Virginia, we're sure it's not all in his head.

And the referendum was clean. There were election monitors -- despite the fact that your State Department claimed and told the press there would be none when it looked like he would win.

What a pantload.

[Mesteryo]

193. those election monitors...

The EU also wanted to send in monitors to oversee the election but refused because they said that the restrictions Chavez put on them would've made getting an accurate view of it impossible. So I think the OAS monitors saw what Chavez wanted them to see.

[Mesteryo]

149. unilateral move..

I'm not sure but I'm betting a President of a country can't unilaterally just kick out a diplomat of another country. If they have diplomatic immunity when they get caught for dwi I'd think they'd have immunity from being forcefully removed from a nation.

Chavez acts like a dictator when he makes these unilateral moves. Bush and Chavez are two peas in a pod.

[Judi Lynn]

153. How do you explain Ecuador's and Bolivia's expulsion of their U.S. ambassador?

How is it you can imagine a country doesn't have the right to expel another country's ambassador? Unbelievable!

[Mesteryo]

155. I said unilateral..

I said I can't imagine a country's President can unilaterally and arbitrarily just kick out diplomats. We do have a treaty concerning diplomats so I'd think kicking out diplomats would need Venezuela legislature approval.

[EFerrari]

160. Having diplomatic relations with another country doesn't mean

you are forced to suffer any individual diplomat.

World leaders can and do send diplomats packing. That is the convention.

[Mesteryo]

166. I'm talking about an ambassador..

Not the guy who gets his coffee.

[EFerrari]

167. Yes. So am I. n/t

[Zorro]

169. So when did Ecuador expel the US ambassador?

Or is that wishful thinking on your part?

[EFerrari]

154. Then you would be wrong. Diplomats in any country are there by invitation.

So no, Chavez doesn't act like a dictator. He acts like the leader of a sovereign nation.

[Mesteryo]

156. it's a treaty not an invitation..

We have a treaty with Venezuela to allow our diplomats there and vice versa so I think the Legislature would need to approv this. A President shouldn't rule by decree.

[EFerrari]

158. Nope. And decrees have nothing to do with this. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

157. Did Rafael Correa know he couldn't expel another country's ambassador when he broke ties

with Colombia and expelled Colombia's ambassador last March?

You should have tried to get word to him about it, and straighten him out.

[Mesteryo]

163. I never said I was an international lawyer..

I gave my opinion and not case law.

[Judi Lynn]

170. You expressed your opinion as fact, clearly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3484098#3487268

[Mesteryo]

179. not really I said "I thought"...

I found the convention on diplomatic relations and it said "The receiving State may at any time and without having to explain its decision, notify the
sending State that the head of the mission or any member of the diplomatic staff of the mission is
persona non grata or that any other member of the staff of the mission is not acceptable."


So yes a state can kick out ambassadors but the issue I made is can a President just decide to do so or must the Legislature agree.

[Judi Lynn]

161. Belarus clearly needed your counsel when it expelled Bush's ambassador Karen Stewart last March. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

162. How could they have forgotten to check with you before Kyrgyzstan expelled TWO U.S. diplomats?

Last Updated: Tuesday, 11 July 2006, 14:48 GMT 15:48 UK

Kyrgyzstan 'expels US diplomats'

The Kyrgyz authorities are expelling two US diplomats for "inappropriate" contacts with non-governmental organisations (NGOs), reports say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5169222.stm

[EFerrari]

164. After 8 years of our Torture President, no one remembers how this works

any more. :(

[Mesteryo]

165. I never claimed to know intl law...

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

173. How the Cuban press is reporting this

Venezuela Expels US Ambassador

CARACAS, Sept 12.— Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez ordered the US ambassador in Caracas, Patrick Duddy, to leave the country within 72 hours as a measure adopted in support of Bolivia, whose president Evo Morales threw out the US ambassador to Bolivia on Wednesday.

Chavez also warned Washington that Venezuela could stop selling crude oil to the US, reported AFP.

"The US ambassador to Caracas has 72 hours to leave Venezuela, in solidarity with Bolivia, the Bolivian people, and the Bolivian government," said Chavez at a campaign rally for his party’s candidate in Puerto Cabello in the November regional elections.

The Venezuelan leader expressed his backing for the Bolivian president whose government is dealing with a crisis caused by reactionary circles. Evo Morales expelled the US ambassador in La Paz after accusing him of being behind destabilizing maneuvers by the opposition.

The expulsion in Venezuela comes hours after the presidency presented voice recordings and denounced an assassination and coup attempt against Chavez, being planned by active and retired military with the approval of the US administration.

http://www.periodico26.cu/english/news_world/september2008/venez-us091208.html

[Judi Lynn]

174. Good to hear more of what he said publicly concerning dropping diplomatic relations

until after the election.

It would be good to see a rational person in the White House as the President for a change. No reason to do business with the pathetic wreck who stole the U.S. Presidency, and never rose to the job requirements.

[Mesteryo]

178. it's odd that if he's doing this because of Bush...

Why wait 8 years right before he leaves office to kick out the ambassador. He is waiting until Bush leaves office because his(Chavez) tough talk has always been grand standing.

[Judi Lynn]

189. Apparently you don't have any grasp of the history of the last two ambassadors there,

Charles Shapiro and William Brownfield.

8 years?

Take the time to understand the subject you're attempting to discuss.

[Mesteryo]

192. What are you talking about?

Chavez accused those two of involvement in a coup against him but I didn't think he removed them from Venezuela. No, he waited for Bush to nearly leave office to do that.

Chavez is like Castro any way, he dislikes any US President regardless if it's Bush or Obama. So I don't think he's just doing this to protest Bush.