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Nambe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:02 PM
Original message
McCain Attacks Obama Over Venezuela
Source:

Sen. John McCain today blasted the expulsion of the U.S. ambassador from Venezuela -- and at the same time the Republican presidential nominee sharply attacked his Democratic rival for suggesting he would meet with Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez during his first year in office. ...

... By contrast, he said, Sen. Barak Obama "calls for meeting directly and unconditionally with the region's worst tyrants.... Rather than focus on strengthening America's ties with friends and allies, he has pledged to sit down with dictators in Venezuela and Cuba in the first year of his presidency. Such a course of action would undermine our democratic allies and embolden anti-American dictators. The United States, and our partners throughout Latin America, cannot afford Senator Obama's brand of unilateralism that rewards Hugo Chavez and his dangerous despotism." ...

Read more: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/12/mccain_attacks_obama_over_vene.html
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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Uh, John...they provide 40% of our oil...I think it might make sense
to talk to them...unless you want a shitlaod of freezing people living in your 7 houses...
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Change course? Now?
When its all gone so well for us under the bush doctrine?

Mc will stay the course and instead of talking will shock and awe our way onto their oil fields. So what if the price goes up another $5? Mc and bush and friends can afford it. And they'll look tough doing it, and that's what's important.

Damn peace loving hippies are gonna cause us to lose face.
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Angleae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Try 9% of imports or 6% overall
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. how about 90% of Venezuelan oil is sold to the US
How many other countries are set up to refine Hugo's swill?
not many
and
if the US can't process it due to the hurricane, then it will hurt Venezuela's economy faster then US gas guzzlers.
We will know soon enough if the oil tankers sit idle.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. 2 yr. old report: Venezuela's Oil Sales to U.S. Drop as Chavez Sends More to Asia
Venezuela's Oil Sales to U.S. Drop as Chavez Sends More to Asia

By Peter Wilson

July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan oil shipments to the U.S. fell 6 percent in the first four months of the year as President Hugo Chavez followed through on his plan to find new markets for his crude, according to data from the U.S. Energy Department.

State-run Petroleos de Venezuela SA has been sending more tankers of oil and fuel to India and China, markets that are up to seven times more distant than the U.S. customers that traditionally take most of the country's exports. Venezuela was the third-biggest OPEC producer last month, with output of about 2.6 million barrels.

``Two things are clear,'' said Roger Tissot, an oil analyst with PFC Energy, a consulting firm in Washington. ``Venezuela wants to reduce its dependence on the U.S., and it wants to position itself in the world's fastest growing markets, such as India and China.''

~snip~
Venezuela has signed new supply agreements with China, India, Jamaica, Haiti, Paraguay, and Bolivia. The country's output is not growing because of a lack of investment in new production, so supplies to those countries come at the expense of the exports to the U.S.

Oil to China

``In the past, all of our oil went north,'' Chavez said during a June 23 press conference in Panama. ``We didn't send oil to Argentina or Uruguay or Paraguay. Now, our oil is arriving at the Rio de la Plata,'' which separates Argentina and Uruguay.

Venezuela is particularly targeting Asia. Petroleos de Venezuela signed a long-term sales agreement with India in April for 2 million barrels a month. The company is also in talks with Reliance Industries Ltd., India's largest non-state oil refiner, for additional shipments.

Sales to China have steadily risen. They totaled 14,000 barrels a day in 2004, and 80,000 barrels a day last year.

``By the end of this year, we should be sending 300,000 barrels a day of oil to China,'' Chavez said. China, which exported crude oil as recently as the early 1990s, has become the world's third-largest oil importer.

Petroleos de Venezuela said in May that it planned to buy 18 oil tankers from Chinese shipyards at a cost of $1.3 billion to allow for increased shipments to Asia.

More:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&refer=latin_america&sid=a_H7VhJXt_6I
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. they aren't mutually exclusive - mcshit is a moron
Obama can and SHOULD talk with Chavez and can and WILL also strengthen ties with US friends and allies.

These two things are NOT mutually exclusive.


FALSE PREMISE - ie: BULLSHIT
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:06 PM
Original message
mccain is experienced with tyrants
he served one and licked the inside of his asshole for 7 years and has added one pallin the fakin to his ticket.
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. mccain is experienced with tyrants
he served one and licked the inside of his asshole for 7 years and has added one pallin the fakin to his ticket.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. uh, mcsame..if you care about our allies...THEY WANT OBAMA TO WIN
SHOVE THAT DOWN YOUR GULLET!!!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well. Iran didn't work, let's try Venezuela. nt
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Yep!
x(
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Chavez is not a
Edited on Fri Sep-12-08 06:35 PM by silverweb
Get it right, shithead.

Venezuela's recent elections have been by far more honest and transparent than ours, and Chavez won fair, square, and BIG. That's a democratic election, something McCain-Palin desperately fear.

If the reTHUGs "win" again this this year, it will again be because of voter suppression, caging, intimidation, misinformation, and fraud, just like the last two U.S. presidential races -- and WE will have the "dictator," not Venezuela.

And WTF is McSame doing calling Obama's plans for rapprochement "unilateralism"?? Talk about projection...! :crazy:

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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. I'll take Chavez for a leader over anything that has come from the repukes for the last 20 years.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Ditto that.
:thumbsup:

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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. U.S. "ally" Alvaro Uribe of Colombia has Death Squads & mass graves. Chavez doesn't.
The New York Times prints twice-weekly hatchet-jobs on the democratically-elected Chavez, but won't report on Colombia's far-right Uribe, except to praise him. Why?
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Good question.
Why?"

How about because the U.S. currently doesn't give a shit about democracy, but only absolute dominance.

All those years we were called "imperialists" by the Soviets, they were absolutely right -- and we were filled with righteous outrage because we didn't realize it was true. But thanks to PNAC, it's even more true now.

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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Bingo
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. THANK you. Stunning how many here still fall for the rightwing lies about him.
NT!

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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Unfortunately, not really stunning.
Too many people here have been completely brainwashed. All it takes is the corporate media spreading a few scary buzz words around.

Chavez wants to help and educate the poor, so he's "redistributing wealth" and a "socialist."

He resists U.S. hegemony, fought off a CIA-led coup, and obtained additional authority from the legislature to accomplish urgent ends, so he's a "strong man" and a "dictator."

Our sheeple know very little about the world beyond their own states' borders, so it's easy to deceive and mislead them. It's absolutely criminal and hideously pathetic.

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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. embolden anti-American dictators..
kinda like your buddies in the WH? this guy gives stupid people a bad name.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. Does this mean..
Chavez won't be able to help those who can't afford oil this winter?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. New Hampshire is suppose to be
taking Chavez' offer of free oil to the ones who need it this winter.

We'll see. Chavez knows Americans aren't george bush.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. And so McLame is saying that he won't meet with anyone ...just like Bush.
Hugo Chavez is only hated because he is a threat to the kind of capitalism that runs wild and cares for no one but the rich. Hugo Chavez is hardly a tyrant but McLame may very well be a tyrant if he takes the white house.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. What?
I agree that Obama has a better plan for dealing with despots like Chavez then McCain does but don't prop up Chavez he is ruining Venezuela.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Despots like Chavez? He is ruining Venezuela? That's your opinion ..not mine.
Do you really believe what the press and admin say about Chavez? I have a brother that lives down there and that's where I get my info about Chavez. I like Chavez and I hate the interference coming from the nut cases in charge here.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. "Despots" don't win multiple elections observed and ratified by the UN, OAS and the Carter Center.
Those elections were found to be fully fair and legitimate.

Got your facts straight before you embarrass yourself further.

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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Whatever, You support the Chavez regime...
Me never... He is a power grabbing murderer so you need to get your facts straight. Blindly supporting Chavez strictly because he is anti-US, anti-Corporate and anti-Bush are not good enough reasons for me.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. The posters you attempt to devaluate are very well informed as you would know if you
kept track.

Please take the opportunity to post that proof you have on Hugo Chavez's record as a murderer. You would be educating us all.

We will look forward to reading your proof.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. and you wonder why
We lose elections... The idiot Chavez has allowed Russian Jets to park in the Carribean... You support him all you want but that is not where middle America is.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You no doubt have some evidence to give credibility to your insight Hugo Chavez is an idiot.
You could raise the common level of knowledge here by posting some links on that issue.

Don't forget, you're attempting to post within a group of people who actually do their homework, who aren't interested in the old red-baiting crap from the 1950's.



He's one of them commies!
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. And you who are
Obviously, no student of history, would be silent while a dictator in disguise of a Socialist ideologue spouting noble goals of restoring prosperity to the poor and downtrodden, stole the peoples rights, shut down all opposition, and just because he was outspoken against the problems that other countries were experiencing with their political leaders, you would take up the banner and cheer him on.

You are exactly what is wrong with the Democratic party in the 21st Century. I on the other hand am the party of JFK.



and when they come for you "Who will speak on your behalf" It will obviously be too late.

Do yourself a favor and study history.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Please post your evidence regarding Chavez' shutting down "all opposition."
You can be sure DU'ers will be glad for the education, since we discussed it hundreds and hundreds of hours here already, while many right-wingers came and left in their effort. The Democrats remain.

Looking forward to seeing your sources and your evidence on that claim Chavez has shut down the opposition, considering the opposition controls almost ALL the media in Venezuela, STILL.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. PROOF
1. Chavez to shut down oppostion TV http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm
2. Proof of Political Prosecution http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509152101
3. Repression of Political Opposition http://www.vcrisis.com/print.php?content=letters/200505200618

The minute the government takes a step toward shutting down alternative viewpoints is the minute that the government ceases to be a Democracy... I don't care how free and fair the elections were deemed to be.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-08 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. I will take no. 3 first, because the extreme statements that the author of it makes
Edited on Mon Sep-15-08 05:34 AM by Peace Patriot
echo your own exaggerations. In the third article, Daniel Duquenal states that the "Tascon list" (a list of all Venezuelan voters that includes the signers of the Recall petition of 2004) was "the worse moral and ethical violence that Venezuela had experienced since the last dictatorship of Perez Jimenez." Passing around a list of names, even if it was used to harass people (and Duquenal offers no details, no evidence, so it's impossible to judge that accusation), is hardly comparable to Jimenez's dictatorship, during which hundreds of people were imprisoned for their political views. The Chavez government has jailed no one for their political opposition.

He further says that, "The government has been trying to protect the image of Chavez. The vice president, modern day Goebbels, has been reaching new lows of abjection trying to distract from the issue."

After that, I just scanned the rest. Anyone who could compare Venezuela's V-P to Goebbels is simply a whacko. I can't trust anything he says.

There was quite a bit of talk about this "Tascon list" on both sides of the political divide. It was thoroughly discussed. The writer is dissatisfied with what Chavez finally did about it (he said that civil servants should stop using the list). The writer wanted an investigation--a tribunal, prosecutions--and he didn't get it.

You say that "the minute the government takes a step toward shutting down alternative viewpoints is the minute that the government ceases to be a Democracy." That is not true. Politicians and governments are forever asserting positions and countering the opposition. They sometimes go too far. They sometimes abuse their power. A country does not "cease to be a Democracy" the moment that a government "takes a step toward" abuse of power or repressing alternative views. Even if the abuse continues--which apparently it did not, in this case--the democracy is not over. Are those who objected to this abuse in jail? Are they prevented from speaking about this or any other subject? Were they prevented from exposing it? Democracy is a process--a dynamic. You can't say that it "ceases" the moment that there is any "step toward" abuse of power.

This exaggeration makes me distrust you--as I do the writer who calls the V-P "Goebbels." You say, "I don't care how free and fair the elections were deemed to be." On this, I simply don't believe you. You are so obviously anti-Chavez, that I'm sure that if you had any credible evidence to the contrary, you would be calling the Chavez government a Nazi State. You don't care about it because it contradicts your prejudice. It is, in fact, very, very important that Venezuela's elections are free and fair. Elections are the bottom line of democracy. Without free and fair elections, as the general rule, you really don't have a democracy. A stolen election, or some election abuses, doesn't mean that democracy ceases. But without fairly consistent free and fair elections, democracy does in truth cease. Elections are a much better gage of democracy that one instance of abuse of power.

No. 2 is similar (about the "Tascon list") but more detailed. Still, it doesn't present credible evidence of abuse of this list, or link to such evidence. This article also exaggerates what may be an abuse of power into a full-on fascist state. If what they allege is true, yes, it would be an abuse of power. But a Nazi state run by Goebbels and Hitler? Give me a break.

-------------

No. 1 --the RCTV controversy--has been thoroughly vetted here at DU. RCTV actively participated in the violent military coup against the legitimate government in 2002, and deserved to be denied a license to use the public airwaves. If any news organization in the U.S. had abused their public broadcast license in this way, they would not only have their license pulled, those responsible would be in jail for treason. Denying their license renewal was a MILD response of the Chavez government--and Peru, Colombia, France, the U.S.--virtually every country in the world holds the right to license the public airwaves in the public interest, and many have denied licenses with far less cause than this.

No other licenses were denied. Other opposition news organizations supported the coup but did not actively participate in it. They are all still broadcasting. At least half the news media in Venezuela is vociferously anti-Chavez.

The anti-Chavez opposition in Venezuela does not seem in the least bit silenced, quieted or intimidated. They defeated the Chavez government's recent constitutional proposal, and had free reign to oppose it, to organize and to tell plenty of lies about it as well. No one stopped them. The votes were counted fairly and they won. What fascist state, tyranny or dictatorship would ever put such a thing to a vote of the people? It's simply ridiculous to call that a dictatorship. Venezuela's democracy may have flaws. The Chavez government may not be perfect. But the opposition's wild exaggerations against the Chavez government do not inspire interest or trust. They seem very like the Bushites, who whine and complain about any little bit of objective, informative journalism that we might be blessed with--in an ocean of lies and utter tripe--and will only tolerate worshipful, propagandistic news media. After a while, you tune out. It's just not interesting to hear/read these very predictable distortions and attempts to manipulate reality by means of exaggeration. The only really good critique of the Chavez government that I have read was by a leftist, who really laid into him for creating a politics of personal charisma. I have not read a single thoughtful, interesting analysis or criticism of the Chavez government from the opposition or from anyone on the right--nor from any corporate news source. It is all so poorly written and blatantly biased, that it is just plain tiresome and boring.

But do please keep us apprised of the storm troopers kicking in your doors and dragging you all off to the Venezuelan gulag. I'm sure we would all contribute to sending you C.A.R.E. packages, as you get beaten up, tortured and thrown into the ovens.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. So I gave you Proof
and your response is to simply refute it? Do you think if Chavez had political prisoners you would know about it? I guess you are of the mind that Castro is an upstanding freedom fighter on behalf of the Cuban people too...

Do you express any concern at all that Chavez is aligning himself with the Russians?

Do you believe Russian Fighter jets in Venezuela is a good thing for America?

Oh NVM you are hopelessly ignorant and like I said when they come for you no one will be left to speak on your behalf.


A mind is a terrible thing to waste, go back to school please.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Do I think that if Chavez had political prisoners, I would know about it? YES!
Absolutely. The Venezuelan opposition--and the Bushwhack State Department--would never shut up about it, if they had any evidence of it at all. And, what is more, the Venezuelan opposition would be quite free to shout it from the rooftops. It is the very absence of any evidence to support this crazy charge, and all the other crazy charges, against the Chavez government, that has made me so disgusted with our Corpo media, and so dismayed at the Venezuelan opposition. Both are LYING--and the Corpo media gives a big trumpet to these lies and never presents the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

What does Cuba have to do with this?

Russians? I can see very well that the oil rich province of Zulia, Venezuela, with its rightwing governor, is sitting right there on the Caribbean coast, with the newly reconstituted U.S. 4th Fleet roaming its coastline, with Colombia and its Bush-U.S. taxpayer funded military and associated death squads right on the border, and with the U.S. doing illegal flyovers in Venezuelan territory. In Bolivia, the Bushwhacks have stoked a civil war, supporting and funding breakaway white separatists, who want total control of Bolivia's major resource, gas, and independent governments. This week they machine-gunned at least 15 peasant farmers, blew up a gas pipeline, and ran rampant with rioting, trashing government buildings and beating up anyone perceived as a Morales government supporter, including beating up police and soldiers whom Morales had ordered not to use their guns.

This civil war "divide and conquer" strategy could be used also in Zulia, to split it off from the Chavez government, taking Venezuela's main oil reserves with it. In Dec 07, Donald Rumsfeld wrote an op-ed in WaPo, in which he urged "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. Now, who do you supposed he is talking about?

If the Bushites can cause this much trouble in Bolivia--a landlocked country, surrounded by leftist democracies--what might they be capable of in Zulia, with an open coastline on the Caribbean and the Colombian military/paramilitaries right next door?

It is this very real threat--that, to the Bushites, Zulia must look like a "sitting duck," a basically undefended huge oil resource, there for the taking--that, in my opinion, is why Chavez invited the Russians to naval maneuvers in the Caribbean. It is a warn-off. It is defensive.

I am "hopelessly ignorant"? I think not. And I have a rather low opinion of anyone who expects me or others to genuflect to Bushwhack views of Venezuela, Cuba or Russia. The Bush junta does not represent me, nor the interests of my country, the USA. They are traitors to this country. They are mass murderers, torturers and thieves. And any of their victim countries, or target countries, that takes defensive action against them, has a right to do so, and much reason to do so. About a million innocent people are dead--100,000 of them blown away in one night of "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad--because they happen to live on a rich oil source. This could happen to ANY country with oil and without a big military and nukes. Venezuela. Ecuador. Bolivia. Those are the three countries in our hemisphere whose democratically elected, leftist governments have been targeted by intense Bushite/Corpo propaganda campaigns, and by support of fascist secessionist groups in Bolivia and support of a rightwing military coup and other hostile actions in Venezuela.

Chavez would be derelict in his duty, as president of Venezuela, not to be warning the Bushwhacks off in every way he can. Russian ships doing maneuvers with Venezuela in the Caribbean is no threat to me or my country, nor is Venezuela's purchase of fighter jets. It is the Bushites who are a threat. Every day I pray that they will not destroy us with more war and with economic meltdown, nor kill and impoverish more millions abroad. I don't see Chavez killing anyone. And, far from impoverishing anyone, he is using Venezuela's oil resource to benefit the poor. As head of state, he has a right to ally with any other government he decides to, for the benefit of his people and his region. That is how I view his relations with Russia, Cuba, Iran and also his close, friendly relations with every democratic leader in South America, all of whom are strong allies of Venezuela. They all need protection from the Bushites/Corpos and their murderous greed for oil and other resources.

One other thing. You say that you presented me with "proof" of tyranny in Venezuela, and I "refuted" it. That is the purpose of evidence, isn't it? To examine the evidence and to refute it, if possible, before making wild charges. Refutation is not a counter-argument. (You would deny me the right to refute your evidence? You want your evidence accepted without examination?) But in fact you did not present sufficient evidence for me to refute anything. I did not the refute the "Tascon list" allegation. But there was so little evidence as to what it was used for, and so much exaggeration, at these two links, I was not convinced. Even if it was used for the purposes alleged--denying government jobs, etc.--it was not the "end of Democracy." We have had far worse abuses of government power for political purposes in the USA throughout our democratic period (1776 to 2000), and democracy survived (until the Bush junta). (You want to talk about LISTS!?)

On RCTV, yes, I refuted it. The charge of suppression of free speech is simply not true. The government had the right to license them; RCTV participated in the coup; they got their license renewal denied. End of story. I wish we could pull some broadcast licenses here, of big Corpo news monopolies who are not operating in the public interest. We once had that power. But the Corpos control everything now--including all news and opinion on our PUBLIC airwaves and our voting machines. Chavez was right, and furthermore within both the letter and spirit of the law, in not renewing their license. And free speech is raging on, in Venezuela.

What you did was to refer me to a BBC news article, relating what Chavez did. You did not "prove" that he suppressed free speech, or is a tyrant, or even tends to be a tyrant. Answer me this: If free speech was suppressed in Venezuela, how did the opposition defeat the Chavez government's constitutional proposal in a popular vote? By mental telepathy? They were opposing a proposal by a president with a 60+% approval rating. How did they get 50.7 vs 49.3% of the votes? If you are right--that Chavez is a tyrant and suppresses free speech--that could not have happened.

And that, my friend, is EVIDENCE. What you have put forward, for the most part, is allegations and interpretations. And I am not convinced--nor are most people who know the facts, nor are most South Americans, including most South American leaders.

Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, recently said, of Chavez: "You can criticize Chavez on a lot of things, but not on democracy." I believe him, and not you.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-08 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Laughable, at best. VCrisis is a virulent anti-Chavez hate spew.
from the June 4, 2007 edition

Chávez is no enemy of free speech
Hugo Chávez let Radio Caracas Televisión continue to air for five years after the station supported a coup attempt.
By Bart Jones
Page 1 of 2

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez's refusal to renew the license of Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV) might seem to justify fears that Mr. Chávez is crushing free speech and eliminating any voices critical of him. Amnesty International; Human Rights Watch; the Committee to Protect Journalists; and members of the European Parliament, the US Senate, and even Chile's Congress have denounced the closure of RCTV, Venezuela's oldest private television network. Chávez's detractors got more ammunition last week when the president included another opposition network, Globovisión, among the "enemies of the homeland."

But the case of RCTV – like most things involving Chávez – has been caught up in a web of misinformation. While one side of the story is getting headlines around the world, the other is barely heard. The demise of RCTV is indeed a sad event in some ways for Venezuelans. Founded in 1953, it was an institution in the country, having produced the long-running political satire program "Radio Rochela" and the blisteringly realistic nighttime soap opera "Por Estas Calles." It was RCTV that broadcast the first live-from-satellite images in Venezuela when it showed Neil Armstrong walking on the moon in 1969.

But after Chávez was elected president in 1998, RCTV shifted to another endeavor: ousting a democratically elected leader from office. Controlled by members of the country's fabulously wealthy oligarchy, including RCTV chief Marcel Granier, it saw Chávez and his "Bolivarian Revolution" on behalf of Venezuela's majority poor as a threat.

RCTV's most infamous effort to topple Chávez came during the April 11, 2002, coup attempt against him. For two days before the putsch, RCTV preempted regular programming and ran wall-to-wall coverage of a general strike aimed at ousting Chávez. A stream of commentators spewed vitriolic attacks against him – while permitting no response from the government.
More:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0604/p09s01-coop.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
US Media Leads Disinfo Charge
A Prime Example of State Censorship
By Lucas Power
Posted: 06/02/2007

For anyone following the story of Venezuela’s Radio Caracas Television (RCTV), there seems to be a dark tyranny sweeping over the land, one threatening to poison the fruits of democracy in South America. It would seem the Venezuelan government, under the dictatorial fist of Hugo Chavez refused to renew RCTV’s broadcast license because the station had been critical of his regime. Reporters Without Border accused Chavez of “aiming to eliminate all opposition press”. This condemnation was joined by Human rights watch, the Committee to Protect Journalists, and the United States Senate.

Senate Resolution 211, introduced on 21 May and passed 24 May, expressed “profound concern…regarding the transgression against freedom of thought and expression that is being carried out in Venezuela, and for other purposes.” The resolution had bi-partisan co-sponsorship and passed by unanimous consent. CNN reporter T.J Holmes boiled the situation down to this: “RCTV is going to be shut down, is going to get off the air, because President Hugo Chavez is not a big fan of it.”

Unfortunately, this sheds more light on our own media’s censorship than it does on censorship in Venezuela. The US media, owned by a small group of multinational corporations, has proven yet again to be the willing participant in a Washington whitewash. Just like in the states, a vast majority of Venezuela's media are in private hands. Unlike the US, they are protected by the constitution, uncensored, and dominated by the opposition. Aggressive political dissent abounds in the Venezuelan mainstream media, to a degree unfamiliar in many democratic nations, including our own.

Television and radio stations are licensed because the airwaves can only accommodate a small number of broadcasters. The practice is almost universal. In democratic nations the license is given for a specific term that is subject to renewal. In the United States it is eight years; in Venezuela it is 20 years. When RCTV’s license came up for renewal Chavez decided not to renew the license. This is where critics deride the decision for lacking some form of due process. However, laws first enacted in 1987, pre-dating the Chavez administration, place licensing decisions with the executive branch.

Chavez’s reasons for not renewing the license cite RCTV's participation in the April 2002 coup that briefly ousted Chavez’s democratically elected government, plus the fact that RCTV leads Venezuelan media in infractions of communications laws. RCTV's problems pre-date the Chavez administration, as well. The station has been censured and closed repeatedly by previous presidential administrations. RCTV leads Venezuela in its violation of communications codes, with 652 infractions. This feat would hardly be tolerated in the United States, where the FCC routinely fines and confiscates equipment of stations found to be operating outside the regulatory sphere. That is to say nothing of the participation in the ouster of a sitting president.
More:
http://pine-magazine.com/content.php?id=799

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Published on Friday, June 1, 2007 by CommonDreams.org
Venezuela and the Media: Fact and Fiction
by Robert W. McChesney & Mark Weisbrot

To read and view the U.S. news media over the past week, there is an episode of grand tyranny unfolding, one repugnant to all who cherish democratic freedoms. The Venezuelan government under "strongman" Hugo Chavez refused to renew the 20-year broadcast license for RCTV, because that medium had the temerity to be critical of his regime. It is a familiar story.

And in this case it is wrong.

Regrettably, the US media coverage of Venezuela's RCTV controversy says more about the deficiencies of our own news media that it does about Venezuela. It demonstrates again, as with the invasion of Iraq, how our news media are far too willing to carry water for Washington than to ascertain and report the truth of the matter.

Here are some of the facts and some of the context that the media have omitted or buried:

1. All nations license radio and TV stations because the airwaves can only accommodate a small number of broadcasters, far fewer than the number who would like to have the privilege to broadcast. In democratic nations the license is given for a specific term, subject to renewal. In the United States it is eight years; in Venezuela it is 20 years.

2. Venezuela is a constitutional republic. Chavez has won landslide victories that would be the envy of almost any elected leader in the world, in internationally monitored elections.

3. The vast majority of Venezuela's media are not only in private hands, they are constitutionally protected, uncensored, and dominated by the opposition. RCTV's owners can expand their cable and satellite programming, or take their capital and launch a print empire forthwith. Aggressive unqualified political dissent is alive and well in the Venezuelan mainstream media, in a manner few other democratic nations have ever known, including our own.

Now consider the specific facts of RCTV as it applied to have its broadcast license renewed.

The media here report that President Chavez "accuses RCTV of having supported a coup" against him. This is a common means of distorting the news: a fact is reported as accusation, and then attributed to a source that the press has done everything to discredit. In fact, RCTV - along with other broadcast news outlets - played such a leading role in the April 2002 military coup against Venezuela's democratically elected government, that it is often described as "the world's first media coup."

In the prelude to the coup, RCTV helped mobilize people to the streets against the government, and used false reporting to justify the coup. One of their most infamous and effective falsifications was to mix footage of pro-Chavez people firing pistols from an overpass in Caracas with gory scenes of demonstrators being shot and killed. This created the impression that the pro-Chavez gunmen actually shot these people, when in fact the victims were nowhere near them. These falsified but horrifying images were repeated incessantly, and served as a major justification for the coup.

RCTV then banned any pro-government reporting during the coup. When Chavez returned to office, this too was blacked out of the news. Later the same year, RCTV once again made all-day-long appeals to Venezuelans to help topple the government during a crippling national oil strike.

If RCTV were broadcasting in the United States, its license would have been revoked years ago. In fact its owners would likely have been tried for criminal offenses, including treason.
More:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/01/1607/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Media Advisory

Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs
Distorting the Venezuelan media story

5/25/07

~snip~
On April 11, 2002, the day of the coup, when military and civilian opposition leaders held press conferences calling for Chávez's ouster, RCTV hosted top coup plotter Carlos Ortega, who rallied demonstrators to the march on the presidential palace. On the same day, after the anti-democratic overthrow appeared to have succeeded, another coup leader, Vice-Admiral Victor Ramírez Pérez, told a Venevisión reporter (4/11/02): "We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you."

That commercial TV outlets including RCTV participated in the coup is not at question; even mainstream outlets have acknowledged as much. As reporter Juan Forero, Jackson Diehl's colleague at the Washington Post, explained (1/18/07), "RCTV, like three other major private television stations, encouraged the protests," resulting in the coup, "and, once Chávez was ousted, cheered his removal." The conservative British newspaper the Financial Times reported (5/21/07), " officials argue with some justification that RCTV actively supported the 2002 coup attempt against Mr. Chávez."

As FAIR's magazine Extra! argued last November, "Were a similar event to happen in the U.S., and TV journalists and executives were caught conspiring with coup plotters, it’s doubtful they would stay out of jail, let alone be allowed to continue to run television stations, as they have in Venezuela."
More:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Leading British voices support Venezuela's RCTV decision

1 June 2007

The following letter, signed by a range of prominent figures in Britain, calls for respect for the Venezuelan government’s decision not to renew RCTV’s broadcasting licence. Signatories to the letter, which appeared in the British Guardian on May 26, include Tony Benn, John Pilger, Tariq Ali, Nobel Prize winner Harold Pinter and various MPs and trade union and student leaders.


We believe that the decision of the Venezuelan government not to renew the broadcasting licence of RCTV when it expires on May 27 is legitimate given that RCTV has used its access to the public airwaves to repeatedly call for the overthrow of the democratically elected government of President Hugo Chavez.

RCTV gave vital practical support to the overthrow of Venezuela’s elected government in April 2002 in which at least 13 people were killed. In the 47 hours that the coup plotters held power, they overturned much of Venezuela’s democratic constitution — closing down the elected national assembly, the Supreme Court and other state institutions.

RCTV exhorted the public to take to the streets and overthrow the government and also colluded with the coup by deliberately misrepresenting what was taking place, and then conducting a news blackout. Its production manager, Andres Izarra, who opposed the coup, immediately resigned so as not to become an accomplice.

This is not a case of censorship. In Venezuela more than 90% of the media is privately owned and virulently opposed to the Chavez government. RCTV, far from being silenced, is being allowed to continue broadcasting by satellite and cable.

In Venezuela, as in Britain, TV stations must adhere to laws and regulations governing what they can broadcast. Imagine the consequences if the BBC or ITV were found to be part of a coup against the government. Venezuela deserves the same consideration.
More:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/712/36967
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Your defense of the Tyrant Chavez is laughable get a clue n/t
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. In what way is Chavez a tyrant?
He was elected to office by a large majority and is for the people and not the corporations. If only the USA had a leader that was for the people first..
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Amen n/t
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. yada yada yada
the shame of it is, there are DUers that help spread this garbage.

I hope Obama does speak with Chavez. Maybe he can repair the damage that this and previous administrations have done in SA.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. LOL! What an idiot. n/t
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Maineman Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Bush and McCain think it is totally inappropriate to
Edited on Fri Sep-12-08 07:18 PM by Maineman
talk with people who are a fraid of us. What idiots.

Afraid of us? Well, we have the most advanced military in the world. We have a president and vice pres who believe in attacking other countries for whatever reason works - if that other country has oil. I would expect most other countries to be afraid of us. Not talking to them is no doubt a strategy to maintain distance and distrust. Bush, Cheney and McCain are idiots. But their friends make lots of money from war.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. Imagine the Saudi Ambassador interfering in internal American politics
That's what that pig of US Ambassador was doing in Venezuela. Chavez is too nice, I would have strapped a suicide belt on the ambassador and dropped him on the eye of Ike, without a parachute.
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. No doubt McCain would hold hands with the Prince of Saud ...
... and kiss the premiere of China.

Who does that democratically elected president of Venezuela think he is??? He has oil and he won't share it with Exxon/Mobile.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Actually, he offered Exxon Mobile the same deal he offered other multinationals--
a 60/40 split favoring Venezuela. Venezuela's oil was nationalized long before Chavez, but the previous rightwing regimes were basically giving it away, with a 10/90 split in favor of big oil. Chavez re-negotiated the contracts in order to generate revenue for schools, medical care, fostering small business and local manufacturing, for local and regional infrastructure, and other benefits to the poor and to the society as a whole. Exxon Mobil threw a shitfit over it, because they, of course, want ALL the profits, and NOTHING for the poor. They want no responsibility for the society that they are impacting, and they especially object to "little countries" asserting their sovereignty and their rights over their own resources. The others agreed (BP, Norway's Statoil, France's Total--and I'm not sure of Chevron's status, but they are initially agreed). To punish Venezuela, Exxon Mobil went into a London court and tried to freeze $12 billion in Venezuela's assets, and lost.

It's true that Chavez is a tough bargainer on behalf of his people, and stood up to Exxon Mobil, but he didn't refuse to share the oil profits. He merely asserted his country's right to set the rules--and Exxon Mobil, being the arrogant, greedy fuckwads they are, and even with the mindboggling profits they have made (breaking world and historical records for corporate profit in the last year)--wanted more, more, more.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
25. Chavez is NOT a "dictator." None of the Bushite/Corpo allegations against him hold up,
even upon superficial research into them. And if you go in depth, you find out that Chavez is the exact opposite of how they portray him--he is, in fact, the most serious and determined advocate of democracy in the history of South America.

Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil, recently said, of Chavez: "You can criticize Chavez on a lot of things, but not on democracy."

Odd, huh?, that he would say that, when it so completely contradicts the Bushite/Corpo propaganda. But I've found it to be true. Chavez cannot be faulted on democracy. He is a democrat with small d. His government fosters maximum citizen participation, and runs elections that put our own to shame for their transparency. He is not repressive--not even a little bit. He has harmed no one, invaded no one, jailed no one unfairly, and has been running a highly popular, scrupulously lawful government for ten years, having been elected twice (mostly recently with 63% of the vote), having won a Bush-funded recall election, and having survived a Bush-supported rightwing military coup, because he is so popular. I suppose you could criticize him for his very popularity--that is, it's always a danger to a political culture for it to be based on--and seemingly dependent on--one leader, but he can't help how popular he is, how visionary he is, how right he is on most issues, and he and his government have gone way out of their way to insure that power in Venezuela is widespread and deep--bottom up, not top down. He owes his own power to the grass roots, to the social movements, to the poor majority, to the people, and that is how he administers the government.

Lulu's remark is not odd, if you know the facts. I will just mention one more: In Venezuela, they use electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE CODE system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated--and they nevetheless count a whopping 55% of the votes, as a check on machine fraud. In the U.S., we use electronic voting, but it is a 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY CODE system--not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review the code by which the votes are tabulated; the code is owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, and there are virtually no audit/recount controls. In half the country, there is no ballot to recount--the election results are completely unverifiable. And even the best states do only a ONE PERCENT handcount, to check for fraud (--miserably inadequate in a 'TRADE SECRET' code system).

And this is not even to mention the international monitoring groups that have been permitted to crawl all over Venezuela, during elections--and that have unanimously declared Venezuela's elections to be honest, fair and reliable.

The facts about Venezuela's election system not only tell us that Chavez really was elected--something that almost none of our own public office holders can prove--but also, it tells us that the government that helped design, that agrees to, and that implements this system is not afraid of its own people, and is seriously democratic, honest, open and transparent. Vote counting is the bottom line of democracy. Without transparent vote counting, you don't really have a democracy. If the vote counting is honest, you can be fairly certain that the government is honest is other respects. By contrast, governments that kill, torture, oppress, loot government coffers, favor the super-rich, rob and brutalize the poor, are profoundly corrupt and secretive, and stomp on human and civil rights--like ours--have to have a mechanism by which to steal elections (--if they bother to maintain an illusion of democracy, which ours currently finds convenient). Look to the election system of such governments, and you will find what we find here--non-transparency, secrecy, unverifiability, and, of course, many other ills.

Transparent vote counting doesn't tell you everything you need to know about a government. But it is a very good test of the basics of democracy. If it is present, you know the country is on the right track. If it is absent, you know the country is in big trouble.

This is what the Bushwhacks and the Corpo/fascists who are running things here don't want you to know: Venezuela is a good democracy--one of the best in our hemisphere, and possibly in the world. And we have pretty much lost our democracy. It is teetering over the cliff of outright nazism.

McCain's bluster about "the region's worst tyrants" and "dangerous despotism" is utter bullshit. So is Obama's language about Chavez (he called him "authoritarian" and a "demagogue" in a speech to the anti-Castro Miami mafia). But I tend to forgive Obama some of his crapola because I know he's got an uphill battle, a) not getting whacked, and b) trying to bring some sanity back to U.S. foreign relations.

Obama says he will "talk to our enemies." If Hugo Chavez is our "enemy," then so are most of the people of Venezuela--and, as a matter of fact, most of the people of Brazil, of Argentina, in Bolivia and many other countries, whose leaders are allied with Chavez, and who greatly admire him for his leadership of the democracy revolution in South America. But, truly, none of these people or their leaders are our "enemy." And I think Obama can learn this, if he doesn't already know it. McCain, on the other hand, is an asshole. He takes his dictates from the Corpo/fascists. And he expects to be--and probably will be--Diebolded into office, as his reward.

There, I said it. The Corpo/fascists have the capability--the EASY capability--to insert the SECRET programming code that (s)elects McCain and his Lipstick to preside over the end of U.S. democracy--and the likelihood is that they will use it. When have Corpo/fascists ever had such power and didn't use it? I think there is a chance that the Corpos might let Obama win, for their own nefarious purposes. They really are in very big trouble in South America, for instance--and in increasing trouble in Central America. The leftist trend in South America is overwhelming--and it is a smart left, too, not only committed to social justice, but also to economic independence, self-determination and cooperation among countries. South America has already formed a South American "Common Market" (UNASUR), with plans to extend to all of Latin America (and not including the U.S.) The U.S.-dominated World Bank/IMF loan sharks have basically been evicted from South America. The corrupt, failed, murderous U.S. "war on drugs" is being evicted from many countries. And now U.S./Bush ambassadors are being evicted--for their nefarious activities in Bolivia and Venezuela.

Here's a list of the leftist governments in South America: Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, Brazil and Chile. Of these, the first six are strongly leftist. Brazil is center-left but strongly allied with the leftists. Chile is center-left and a weaker ally. This leaves only the two outliers--Colombia (Bush Cartel client state--with a truly evil government), and Peru (run by corrupt 'free tradists," with a 20% approval rating--likely to be ousted in the next election). The most startling development was the recent election of a leftist in Paraguay--after 61 years of rightwing rule (including a heinous dictatorship).

In Central America, the Sandinistas were elected in Nicaragua (strongly allied with the South American leftists). Last week, Honduras (HONDURAS!) gave the Bushites the finger, and joined the Bolivarian trade group, ALBA--and yesterday, they snubbed the new U.S. ambassador, in sympathy with Bolivia. Leftists are ahead in the polls in El Salvador and Panama. Guatemala just elected its first progressive government, ever. And Mexico came within a hairsbreadth--0.05%--of electing a leftist a couple of years ago (and may well elect him next time round).

The time's they are a-changin'! And what this means for U.S. Corpos is that their nasty habits of resource plunder, pollution, labor oppression and looting of economies and governments in South America are being curtailed (except in Colombia--and, for the time being, in Peru), and that trend is quickly moving north. So, either they are going to go out in a flaming blaze of war--trying to regain corporate control of some of those resources (as they are trying to do in Bolivia, and have plans to do in Venezuela and Ecuador)--an insane policy that will fail--or they're going to have to get used to playing nice, at least for a while.

This is one reason they may permit Obama to win. The situation for U.S. Corpos in South America is critical. We could already be looking at permanent alienation between the northern and southern halves of this hemisphere. It is a distinct possibility that Argentina and Brazil will also eject the U.S.-Bush ambassadors from their countries, for the mess that the Bushwhacks have created in Bolivia. Argentina and Brazil are Bolivia's chief gas customers. The white separatists in Bolivia--supported, funded, 'trained' by the Bushwhacks--are blowing up their pipelines, for godssakes! They can't put up with this. U.S. ambassadors, as we know, are Corpo ambassadors. If the situation deteriorates further, between South America and the Bush junta, our Corpos may find that they, too, are 'persona non grata.'

One more thing: Argentina and Brazil just announced that they are going off the U.S. dollar. They are no longer being dictated to by the U.S. And they are strong allies of Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales and Rafael Correa (Ecuador). They are all democrats with a small d. They are all committed to common goals of social justice and self-determination. I think they will act in concert, as to this Bolivian situation (and other Bushwhack plots). Argentina and Brazil may try diplomacy first, but if they can't get the Bush junta to back off, we may well see "the shape of things to come" unfold in the immediate future, with these South American countries unified against the U.S.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. It's odd watching the tension build, isn't it? Bolivia's racist oligarchs want to prevent
the referendum on the new Constitution which is due very soon. I'll have to look it up and post it, but I think it's in December. They are determined to stop the process which will bring a more equal chance, clearer rights to the abused "minority" of 60% of the country, the indigenous people who were prohibited from walking on sidewalks, or voting until a revolution in 1952 overturned these unholy conditions forced upon them by the European descended oligarchy. It's still hard to believe Bolivian citizens could have been abused this wildly as late as 1952. But then, look at the vicious violence which the oligarchy mobs have inflicted upon the indigenous just since Evo Morales was elected.

Last week, before the murders in the last two days, they stormed into indigenous neighborhoods brandishing clubs with spikes on them, and shields, and beat the hell out of any indigenous people they found. There have been waves after waves after waves of murderous violence ever since the landslide election of Evo Morales.

They apparently expect to terrorize the population back into a state of paralyzed fear, and reassume control of the ingenous people's country.

Did you see the linked article someone posted here in the last couple of days which said Bolivian news crews caught Philip Goldberg leaving a secret (meaning not made public) meeting with the opposition governors after midnight recently? They can't get him out of there nearly fast enough. He follows the pattern of ALL other Bush ambassadors in Latin America, in every country with a leftist leader. They are not diplomats, they are destabilizing agents. What a miserable, shabby way to conduct US relationships with the world.

People have also been aware the same opposition people have been making trips to Washington from time to time.

I hope the Bolivian people themselves can find the cohesion they need to stand up to these ugly fascists, and take back their own country.


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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. Crazy Talk
from crazy man as he sees the job he's wanted all these years slip away.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. You're so right. I had forgotten. There IS that desperation factor, isn't there? You bet. n/t
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. Holy shit, this nincompoop uses the word "meeting" and its synonyms as fi it were "surrendering."
I'd like to see the Obama campaign call him out on that.
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
43. It sure would be good to see Obama call McCain on his mistakes here. .....
Edited on Sun Sep-14-08 02:40 PM by happydreams
beginning with the fact that Chavez had a much wider margin of victory in his election than Bush.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
44. funny how they're 'tyrants' when they happen to have a lot of natural resources...
...that mccain and his ilk feel are 'rightfully' the property of the US.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
50. McCain on Obama:
"Such a course of action would embolden anti-American dictators".



nt

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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
53. Hugo Chavez is not a terroist/tyrannt...
he just refuses to kneel before shrub.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. The US should invade all of the countries south of it's border
Those people from the Pentagon need to teach all those pro-democracy hoards that they have to kneel before the corporate masters ;-)
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