Alleged Estonian Spy Sold NATO Secrets: Report

[sabra]

Source: Defense News/AFP

TALLINN - A former Estonian defense ministry official arrested for treason at the weekend is thought to have sold important NATO secrets to Russia, a report said Sept. 22.

"(Herman) Simm is suspected of carrying NATO's biggest secrets to Russian intelligence," Postimees daily said, without revealing its sources.

"This is an unbelievably embarrassing case," an unnamed defense ministry official told the Estonian daily, which said Simm may have used a Spanish or Italian go-between.

Estonian officials have so far not detailed the treason charges against Simm, who was arrested on Sunday.

Another daily, the Eesti Paevaleht, reported that Simm had lost his privileged access to state secrets when Estonia's NATO partners warned Tallinn about possible leaks.

Read more: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3738624&c=EUR&s=TOP

[LiberalEsto]

1. Damn Russians

I wish they'd leave Estonia alone already.

Simm's lucky he only faces 15 years maximum in prison. In the US he could face the death penalty or life in prison.

Why do I care? My parents came here from Estonia, and I have an aunt, several cousins and loads of other relatives there. I worry about their safety, should the greedy Russian bastards decide to take over Estonia again.

[happyslug]

2. Isn't Estonia part of Russia?

Lets face facts, Estonia, except for a brief period between WWI and WWII, had been part of Russia since the Russian took in from the Swedes in 1721 (It had been Swedish From 1562 to 1721, And from 1228–1562 Estonia was ruled by a loss Confederation of Teutonic Knights, Hanseatic League and Danes).

The Capital of Estonia, Tallinn to St Petersburg Russia is only 13 hours away by Ferry, ten hours by rail and 5-7 hours by bus. The rail line is scheduled to stop in 2008 do to the fact Russia has cheap diesel fuel for buses than any other factor.
For Ferry information:
http://www.waytorussia.net/news/2004-04/ferry-st-pete.html
For Rail and Bus information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Estonia

Basically the Estonia Border is only 80 miles from St Petersburg, about the same as the Finish Border, but Finland is NOT a member of NATO and refused to Join NATO during the Cold War for the Finns knew all it would do is make the Russians Mad (and thus Finland stayed Neutral during the Cold War, refusing to permit any NATO activities in its borders, acting like a good friend of the Soviets and today the Russians.

For a comparison, The Louisiana-Texas border is almost 120 miles away from the Mississippi, yet the US in the 1830s thought that was to close and encouraged Texas to declare their Independence from Mexico and them annexed Texas, Knowing it would be war with Mexico. 80 miles is just one to two days force march, it is to close for comfort.

Furthermore both Finland and Estonia border the only sea exit from St Petersburg. Both had been used by the Swedes to invade Russia (in the early 1700s). Russia can not and will not permit any non Russia or Non native troops in any of the Baltic Countries (And Finland).

Simply put, Russia will always have a say in what occurs in any of the Baltic Countries (and I include Finland among the "Baltics" nations) and the Baltics better get use to it. Like Canada and the US, Canada will NOT do anything that the US strongly oppose, even if it benefits Canada. The same with the Baltics, Russia can take the Baltics over as quickly today as Stalin did in 1940. NATO may protest but I doubt will send in Troops (Especially if Russia cuts off Germany's access to Natural Gas). Thus my comment, Estonia is as much a part of Russia as it has ever been. Estonia is technically independent, and as long as that poses no threat to Russia, Russia has no need to end it (just like the US has tolerated Canadian Independence since 1867), but if something occurs in Estonia that the Russian strongly do NOT want, the Russians will invade (i.e. if Estonia permits non-Estonian NATO troops in Estonia). Estonia is to near, and Russia is to big, for Estonia to be truly Independent, the only real question is the relationship between Russia and the Baltics and it has to be one that the Baltics must, to a degree, act in the best interest of Russia.

[LiberalEsto]

3. No it is not

We Estonians are a separate people, with a separate language related only to Finnish and Hungarian. Our language is in the Finno-Ugric linguistic group which is not even remotely related to the Indo-European languages, of which Russian is one.

Archaeological evidence proves conclusively that the Finno-Ugric people inhabited the shores of the Baltic Sea and large areas of Eastern Europe for thousands of years, long before the Russians and other Slavic groups migrated to their present-day territories.

Estonia has been colonized by Russia, Germany, Sweden and Denmark in the past, but the Estonians are no more Russians, Germans, Swedes or Danes than Algeria is French, even though France colonized Algeria at one time. India is not British, even though it lived under British colonial rule at one time. Ireland is not British, even though it too was ruled at one time by the British. Native American tribes generally consider themselves separate from the United States, even though colonists from Europe took almost all their land and herded them onto reservations and tried to destroy their languages and cultures. Estonians identify strongly with the plight of Native Americans.

Estonians consider ourselves an indigenous people who have lost territory and been unwillingly and illegally colonized by Russia and other nations in the past. We have as much right to be free of colonial rule as do Ireland, India, Algeria and many more nations around the world. We have the right to speak our own language and teach it to our children, along with our folk songs and traditions. We have the right to self-rule.

Russia has a vast territory of its own, and should keep within its own boundaries and mind its own business.

[Liberal Esto 2]

4. Who encroached on whose territory

Note that in 1700 the territory Russia currently considers "eternally Russian" (St. Petersburg and environs) was almost completely uninhabited by Slavs of any variety. The people living there at the time were almost exclusively Finnic tribes. And it was considered part and parcel of Sweden. Here's an excerpt from this Wikipedia website where you can also study a handy map of the area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

"After the Battle of Narva in 1700, one of the first battles of the Great Northern War, the Russian army was so severely decimated that Sweden had an open chance to invade Russia. However, Charles did not pursue the Russian army—instead turning against Poland-Lithuania and defeating the Polish king Augustus II and his Saxon allies at the Battle of Kliszow in 1702. This gave the Russian Tsar time to rebuild and modernize his army."

This great Swedish mistake, in addition to a plague which decimated many of the inhabitants of that particular region, led to a catastrophe which has held Europe in its grip for three centuries now: Russian expansionism westwards under Peter the Great.

Our friend happyslug obviously subscribes to the old adage "Might makes right." As does Putin & Co. A second adage they also subscribe to is "History is written by the victors."

And if that's not enough, think about this: Konigsberg was a highly cultivated city --practically a shrine dedicated to the father of German philosophy, Immanuel Kant. Now it's called Kaliningrad and is almost exclusively a shrine dedicated to militarism on the Baltic Sea.

May the cosmos protect us from imperialists.

[happyslug]

6. You are still trying to ignore the big boy on the block

That is always fatal. You have to remember Russia has more concerns then Estonia and if Estonia begins to look like it would support an attack on Russia, Russia will attack first. The Expansion of NATO to the Baltics is a huge mistake. All the US is getting are invasion points to invade Russia. These are the same invasion points the Swedes used in the 1700s, the Teutonic Knights used in the Middle ages and what Germany used during WWII.

I admit Stalin moved in first (Taking over the Baltics in 1940, Germany did not invade till 1941), but only after all three countries refused to permit Russian Troops in to prevent a German Invasion. Everyone who read Mein Kampf knew Hitler was going to invade Russia and the choice was clear who do you support? Hitler and Germany or Stalin and Russia.? It was a choice every Eastern European Country made and everyone made the same mistake of backing Germany (Even Poland did this refusing the Red Army the right to come into Poland even as Hitler was massing troops on the border).

Now many claim that Stalin would have done the same things in 1940 (if he had been permitted to move in peacefully as opposing to having to invade) as Stalin did in 1945 as the Red Army took the Baltics and Poland from Germany. The move in 1940 would have been a peaceful move into the Baltics not the full scale "Liberation" of 1945 (Hay, we are talking in terms of WWII lets use WWII terms). Finland shows that was NOT the case. Finland signed a peace treaty with Stalin in 1944, the year BEFORE the Red Army took Berlin, all Stalin wanted was a return to the line he had drawn after the Russo-Finish war of 1940 AND the removal of all German Troops (which Stalin even assisted the Fins in doing, including moving Soviet Troops into Norway via Finland). Stalin even said the King of Romania, by his actions to remove his Prime Minster (and Dictator of Romania) was a person who caused the war to end six months earlier then it would have (The King Family was exiled but Romania never had the complete direction from Russia Poland and the the Baltics had during the Cold war. Stalin gave him and Romania Credit for the actions of the King and the Romanian people in getting rid of their Dictator and helping the Red Army remove the Germans. In areas where Russia was not threaten Stalin even left the King Of Afghanistan stay in power till that King was removed as the Russians in the 1970s tried to modernized Afghanistan.

My point is simple, you are next to Russia why join an alliance against Russia? That was dumb and nothing but a threat to Russia. You have to live with Russia, live with them DON'T Slap them in the face every time you feel like it. Sooner or later Russia will NOT like being slapped and will take Estonia over again. You are in the Russia Sphere of Influence and will be unless Russia is no more (and that is unlikely).

Good Fences make good neighbors, but shooting over that fence to keep the neighbors out will cause nothing but trouble. The fence has to do its work on its own, furthermore the neighbors must work together and to so Estonia and the rest of the Baltics must accept the fact that your problems are Russia's problems and Russia's problems are yours. Thus Estonia is still part of Russia and always will be, the only question is how the relationship will be, Friendly if you want it to be, hostile if you want it to be. Do you want Russia calling all of the local calls in addition to the international ones, or just the international calls. That is up to the Nations of Eastern Europe but those Nations have to work out some sort of working relationship with Russia or Russia will impose one on those Nations. The choice is up to each of them, and so far they have NOT been making good choices given how close is Russia and how far is the US.

[LiberalEsto]

7. Why on EARTH would Estonia invade Russia?

For Russia to consider Estonia a military threat is, in my opinion, a paranoid fantasy. Estonians are hardworking and practical, but they're not interested in committing mass suicide.

For that matter, why would the US invade Russia? That's another example of Russian paranoid delusion. I don't think the US wants to start WW3, and I don't think we possess the military capability of invading Russia at this time. The American military has been wrecked by the Bush Misadministration via the Iraq occupation.

Estonia has the right to join NATO or any alliance it damn well pleases. It is an independent nation, and is not part of Russia, and Russia has no right to say what Estonia does or does not do. Perhaps at one time Russia considered it part of Russia, but that doesn't make it so. That occupation was illegal and was never recognized by the United States.

Estonia has the right to a democracy with free elections. Or are you trying to say that by your logic it's okay for Russia to invade and reclaim Estonia, for Great Britain to invade and reclaim India, for France to invade and reclaim Algeria, for Belgium to invade and reclaim Zaire, for England to invade and reclaim Ireland?

The "big boy on the block" is a vicious, greedy bully, and I think bullies must learn to behave and mind their own business.

[dnclpp]

5. Agreed

Completely agree with the topic creator