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DogPoundPup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:28 PM
Original message
Russia Lending Venezuela $1 Billion to Buy Arms
Source: Voice of America News

Russia says it is lending Venezuela $1 billion so the South American nation can buy Russian military hardware.

The Kremlin announced the loan Thursday, ahead of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's arrival in Moscow, where he is to hold talks with Russian leaders on military and energy issues.

A Kremlin spokesman said Venezuela has signed a series of arms contracts with Russia since 2005, worth $4.4 billion.

Both Mr. Chavez and Russian leaders have criticized U.S. foreign policy.

Relations between Washington and Caracas remain tense, following Venezuela's expulsion of the U.S. ambassador earlier this month. Caracas also has flaunted its military ties with Moscow, and is hosting joint military exercises with Russia off the Venezuelan coast.

Read more: http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-09-25-voa48.cfm?rss=politics
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good. Get plenty of those spooky-ass sunburn cruise missiles.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Sunburns aren't that big a deal
You just park your carrier battle group out of range. They are over rated as a coastal defense weapon.

The simply fact of the matter is that the US military has too many options - Chavez can't afford all the weapons and systems need to defend himself against a serious US attack.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. You mean our drones?
hit janes, that started life as something to test us systems against.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. A better purchase would be AK-47s, still one of the best infantry weapons in the World
The M16 (And its M4 Carbine version) has certain advantages over the AK-47, but the quicker and easier method of ejecting and installing a new Magazine is the best advantage, and is minor as is the lighter weight of the M16 and the ability to put on more gadgets the M16 has (especially the A4 and M4 Versions). On the other hand the AK is still considered more reliable (Through no automatic is as reliable as a Bolt Action Rifle, which is why such bolt action held on till the 1960s even in Major Powers, and bolt actions hold on in third world countries to this day) AND can be subject to more abuse (i.e. AKs have been left in the mud for weeks and like the M1911 one clean up by a soldier in the field will work, something that can NOT be said of any other Rifle).

I should note Chavez has opt for the AK-103 which differers from the AK-47. All weapons firing in the automatic mode will go up and to the left (Up and to the right if left handed). The reason for this is as the shooter feels the recoil he compensates for it, but never enough, thus the weapon goes against his effort to keep the weapon straight. This leads to the up and left motion. For this reason, except for machine guns in tripods, soldiers are trained to fire in semi-automatic mode OR in short burst in Automatic mode. The weaker the round the less up and to the left it goes, the stronger the round the more up and to the left it goes. Thus the decision during and after WWII to go to lighter loads for assault rifles. The AK-103 goes one more step, the exact technical difference escape me (and I can NOT find it on the net, everyone gets hanged up in the increase use of plastics and the increase ability to put on gadgets then the actual working of the rifle). Anyway the improvements is to help the AK-103 better prevent the up and to the left movement I believe in how the bolt works (And the change was NOT that radical splitting some action in half and then having two pulls instead of one, but the exact improvement escapes me at the present).

In addition to AKs, I would op for RPKs and PKs. PKs are the Russian General Purpose Machine Gun, it was also designed by Kalashnikov, thus the Ks in the designations. When the US looked for a replacement for the Old M60 Machine gun, the US tested the German G-3 (MG-42) and the Belgium MAG but included a Captured and previously (The amount of use was unknown) PK and the M60 to make sure the US would pick the best machine gun not a pig like the M-60 (The M-60 was NOT the worse machine gun in history, the Japanese and Italians had that privilege secure by their WWII Machine Guns, but it was the worse of the post WWII Machine guns, being a cross of the basic machine gun parts of the German WWII MG-42 with the gas operating system of the German WWII FG-42). Anyway the US did its test, the M-60 quickly showed why it was going to be replaced, PK continue to fire, even after its housing developed a crack in it, tell the end of the test. While the MAG technically won the contest, if you read between the lines the PK won (Through all three Machine Guns were deemed about the same when it came to military usability).
For more on AKs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AKM
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as01-e.htm

The RPKs, are the Squad Automatic Weapons of the Russian Army. It is a AK with a 20 inch barrel instead of the AK's 16 inch barrel. Kalashnikov first designed a Sub Machine Gun during WWII, it was while liked but NOT adopted, he then designed the PK machine gun. In many aspects the AK is a downsized PK without a changeable barrel and designed to use a clip instead of a belt. Thus the switch to the RPK was NOT that much of a Change (and explains why the AK is so heavy, it is a downsized Machine gun, thus the RPK avoids the problem with the US XM15, M14A1, the British/Canadian/Belgium FN and other attempts to make post WWII assault rifles Squad Automatic Weapons, all of them were designed to light to do the job and when asked failed, the RPK did NOT fail for it was a Machine Gun design from day one, not a Rifle design upgraded to be a machine Gun). Now the RPK does NOT have the quick change barrel of the US M-249 (Called the BAR by some for it is a modified version of the M1918 BAR of WWII), not the modern M-249s ability to use BOTH Box magazine AND belt ammunition. Thus it is an inferior Squad Automatic Weapon to the M-249 when these two factors come into play. They did NOT come into play when the US used the Old M1918 BAR, which also did NOT have these Features, thus the RPK is good enough given that it gives you complete training duplication with the AK (i.e. the only difference is the barrel length).
More on RPKs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPK
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg15-e.htm
More on PKs:
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg07-e.htm

Second to Rifles/Machine Guns would be Anti-tank Weapons. The Russians came out with the RPKs during the 1950s and every time the US has faced them, the RPGs have done damage. Are RPKs as NOT as effective Anti-tank weapon as the TOW or Javelin, but the RPG are considered better then the AT-4 and its predecessor the Light Ant-Tank Weapon (LAW). Unlike the AT-4, the RPK requires its operator to be dedicated to the RPG (like the Javelin and TOW) but is used at the Squad and Platoon Level, not the Company (Javelin) or Battalion (TOW) level. The Russians also have Javelin and TOW equivalents which I see Chavez obtaining, but I expect his to concentrate on RPKs and the Russian Equivalent of the old US Law. Both are Cheap and effective, not necessary against modern US Tanks, but Tanks need fuel and supplies and against the Trucks and other support vehicles the RPG is good enough. he RPG-29 has a good reputation for effectiveness and being cheap:
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_infweapons_soviet_rpg29.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl04-e.htm
The Russian Latest LAW version:
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl42-e.htm

The Third option I would be buying is Russian Portage Anti-Aircraft Weapons. These are kept at Battalion level in US units (Do to costs and lack of serious Aircraft threat in most US Action) but a few will keep US Helicopters higher in the air, then if all the Helicopters can fear is Machine Gun Fire.
50 Caliber Machine Guns (In both the Soviet Army and US Army originally an Anti-tank round then AA round):
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg02-e.htm

The Fourth Series of Weapons would be 82mm Mortars (The Russians use 82 mm instead of the West 81mm, minor difference). Mortar's would give any Guerrillas the ability to attack any Air Base the US builds in Venezuela. 120mm would provide more range, more blast, but at the cost of requiring greater effort to be moved. I would get both. And plenty of Ammunition for both.

Fifth I would improve overall communication ability. Any US invasion force would have they own, so if the US also had use, it would be of minor concern. I.e. Cell system so I can call anyone and quickly put it back in order if it is destroyed. I would also try to get a Secure system (i.e. underground) to maintain contact with my regular troops. I would provide duplicative Water and Sewerage system (The US likes destroying such system during an air attack). All to be able to take a hit and recover as quickly as possible.

Sixth, I would upgrade my Air Force. More to keep the Air Force happy about getting new jets then anything else. Chavez decided to upgrade his fighter to the Russian's best export fighter, the SU-30 (Export venison of the SU-27). This is considered the best Russian fighter and except for electronic equipment (Which the US is years ahead of the Russian Republic) the SU-27 series is considered as good if not better then the F-15 (Again a note that the better electronics in the F-15 makes it clearly the better plane).

Now he has to keep them maintained and pilots trained (This was the reason NATO had no problems with the MIG-29s NATO faced in the war against Serbia, lack of pare parts lead to lack of training that lead to the Serbian MIG-29s becoming easy pickings for the US and NATO Pilots).

The whole thrust of his Air Force must be two fold, first to increase the costs of any Air Attack and to keep out intruding aircraft. Second to give Chavez time to retreat to what ever safe headquarters he has built and start the guerrilla war. The same thought should go to any naval or regular army formation, i.e. increase cost of any invasion AND give time for the guerrilla war time to start. Thus I would avoid any purchase of Tanks, armored Cars or Artillery, except as needed to slow down a US invasion (i.e. tell your people any such weapons will NOT stop the Americans, only delay them, so count of them only for delay). If it can not be hauled by hand do not buy it unless you plan to use it in the first days of the war and then lose it. The SU-30s fit that bill, used for about 72 hours then gone. In those 72 hours the SU-30s will force the US to play as if the SU-30s can show up anywhere, forcing the US to plan and arm its troops for air Protection, Air protection that will be useless for any other purpose thus just an increase in the Cost of the Invasion. Presently he has 24 SU-30s, the real question is how ready for combat are the crews and planes. SU:30s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30

From what I have seen that is all Chavez is buying. He is keeping the tanks he has (his 82 AMX-30 1960 era French tanks are more then what Columbia but his military is considered weaker then Columbia's for the tanks are NOT considered the most up to date and are believed to be in poor shape, i.e. to be used and lost, or maybe even abandoned without being used).

Venezuela Army:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Venezuela#Tanks_and_combat_vehicles
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/venezuela/index.html
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Does any sane person doubt that the sovereign nation of Venezuela can have
Edited on Thu Sep-25-08 03:37 PM by Vincardog
relations with whomever it wants? What kind of tighta$$ worries about them "flaunting" their relations
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm more concerned with them being indebted....
to Super Putin (conqueror of tigers). Does not seem like a good idea. Especially when they have the oil revenues to avoid this.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The point of a loan is so you can control where and how they spend it. aWoL refused to
send them parts for the US made fighters.
The USA is not a reliable trading partner they are going to check and see if Russia is more reliable.
It is no surprise after the idiot bush cut off their parts order.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Once again...
you are entrusting control to Super Putin (conqueror of tigers) though. How you argue this is a good thing is beyond me.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Where did you see me saying anything was good or bad? I was just stating facts.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Sorry...
made a bad assumption.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. S OK
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ok
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. So, this story is three years old? Is this an update or just the US
flaunting its relationship with the lapdog media?

:)
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freedomnorth Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Do you have the article that was published 3 years ago?
US might have pushed this. :freak:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The OP says the purchases started in 2005?
I was genuinely asking.

Why does BushCo want to make their relations with Venezuela and Bolivia as bad as possible before they leave? That's what I really don't understand. I get that the poodle Uribe in Colombia needs his trade agreement before the end of the session. But, they can't succeed in Venezuela or in Bolivia unless they hire assassins outright.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. We've been talking about it here that long, too, right? Really nothing new.
They would never have had to look as far from home if Bush hadn't screwed them over at his first opportunity, after he stole the pResidency.

Clinton didn't have any major problems with Chavez whatsoever.
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olddad56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. so what, the taxpayers are lending corporate execs $700 BILLION to buy time.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Even if the whole thing collapses
you will still not be living like those in the slums in caracas.

Shiny toys are worth jack shit against anyone except his neighbors.

We spend trillions figuring out how to kill soviet/russian systems.

Example, russian gps jammers in baghdad, blown up with...GPS guided munitions.

Old circus, new monkeys.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Unlike here, where a battalion will be deployed in October
domestically --- to do what, exactly?

And since China doesn't want to lend to us any more money, expect our own slums to grow nicely while those in Caracas continue to shrink.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. China, is second to Japan and Germany
who hold more of our debt. They will lend money or see their whole nut go to shit.

China sells bullshit to the us, that is their economy.

The slums in caracas looked the same in March 08 as they did in 05.. Guess our petro dollars will be better spent on russian weapon systems.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. No. The poverty rate has gone down every single one of the Chavez years.
I only hope the next guy can do as well.

Center for Economic and Policy Research:

Poverty Rates in Venezuela:
Getting the Numbers Right

By Mark Weisbrot, Luis Sandoval, and David Rosnick

Mark Weisbrot is co-director, Luis Sandoval is a research assistant, and David Rosnick is a research associate at the Center for Economic and Policy Research. Dean Baker provided valuable comments, and Nihar Bhatt and Kathryn Bogel provided valuable research assistance.
Introduction

Over the past year, the statement that poverty in Venezuela has increased under the government of President Hugo Chávez has appeared in scores of major newspapers, on major television and radio programs, and even journals such as Foreign Affairs1 and Foreign Policy.2 (See Appendix for a sample of such statements.) These statements have only rarely been contested or corrected.

For example, writing in the May/June 2006 issue of Foreign Affairs, Mexico’s former Foreign Minister Jorge Castañeda stated that “Venezuela’s poverty figures and human development indices have deteriorated since 1999, when Chávez took office.”3 A May 11, 2006 news article in the Financial Times was headlined “Chavez opts for oil-fuelled world tour while progress slows on social issues; Challengers point to failures in housing and poverty ahead of December's elections,”4 and questions whether poverty has been reduced under the Chávez administration.

This paper looks at the available data on poverty in Venezuela, which show a reduction in poverty since 1999, as well as related economic data. The paper also briefly notes how some of the mistakes surrounding the discussion of this issue have been made. Finally, we also look at the impact of the provision of health care to the poor, which has been greatly expanded over the last few years.

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/ceprpov.htm
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yep. Caracas hills
make the WORST part of camden, irvington and detroit look like sandals resorts. Seen them all first hand.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. But that's more about your take than about the trend.
I was in El Salvador in '68 or so. There was an encampment of earthquake survivors down the road that had been there for ten friggin' years. When I went with the housekeeper to buy fresh stuff there, I couldn't believe what I was looking at. But, that was about me not knowing how other people struggle.

Chavez has done well with food security and with poverty in general. The way forward is a concern -- as it is for most of us.

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