Florida Board Keeps Klan Leader's Name at High School (Nathan Bedford Forrest)

[Hissyspit]

Source: Associated Press

Nov 4, 12:28 AM EST

Fla. board keeps Klan leader's name at high school

By RON WORD
Associated Press Writer

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) -- A Florida school board voted late Monday night to keep the name of a Confederate general and early Ku Klux Klan leader at a majority black high school, despite opposition from a black board member who said the school's namesake was a "terrorist and racist."

After hearing about three hours of public comments, Duval County School Board members voted 5-2 to the retain the name of Nathan Bedford Forrest High School. The board's two black members cast the only votes to change the name. "(Forrest) was a terrorist and a racist," argued board member Brenda Priestly Jackson, who is black.

- snip -

Board member Tommy Hazouri voted to keep the name and said it is difficult to know "who the real Forrest is." The board listened to passionate arguments from those on both sides. More than 140 people crowded into the meeting room, with another 20 watching the meeting on a television in the lobby.

Many urged a name change, saying the Forrest name was an insult. "Nathan Bedford Forrest was part of the Ku Klux Klan, no matter how you put it. Nathan Bedford Forrest needs to be changed," said Stanley Scott, who is black.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CONFEDERATE_CONTROVERSY?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

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Yes. That's right. Nathan Bedford Forrest.

From Wikipedia.org:

Nathan Bedford Forrest

(July 13, 1821 – October 29, 1877) was a lieutenant general in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War. He is remembered both as a self made and innovative cavalry leader during the war and as a figure in the postwar establishment of the first Ku Klux Klan organization opposing the reconstruction era in the South. Although he is thought to have started the Ku Klux Klan and was its first Grand Wizard, a Congressional investigation began in 1871 to determine Forrest's ties with the Klan, if any. The Committee was chaired by William Tecumseh Sherman. "The outcome of the 1871 investigation was twofold. The committee found no evidence that Forrest had participated in the formation of the Klan and that even the use of his name may well have been without his permission. They also found that there was no credible evidence that Forrest had ever participated in or directed any actions of the Klan."

A cavalry and military commander in the war, Forrest is also one of the war's most unusual figures. He was one of the very few in either army to enlist as a private and end the war at the rank of general. Forrest discovered and established new doctrines for mobile forces, earning the nickname The Wizard of the Saddle.<1> He was accused of responsibility for war crimes at the Battle of Fort Pillow for leading Confederate soldiers in a massacre of unarmed black Union Army prisoners, but in the face of conflicting evidence was later cleared by the US Congress.<2> After the war Forrest opposed Reconstruction policies and federal occupation by serving as the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and commander of the Grand Dragons of the Realms.<3><4> He later worked to disband the KKK claiming it had become unpatriotic and violent.

Fort Pillow

On April 12, 1864, General Forrest led his forces in the attack and capture of Fort Pillow on the Mississippi River in Henning, Tennessee. The Battle of Fort Pillow led to great controversy about whether a massacre of surrendered African-American Union troops was conducted or condoned by General Forrest.

Forrest's men insisted that the Federals, although fleeing, kept their weapons and frequently turned to shoot, forcing the Confederates to keep firing in self defense..<17> The Union flag was still flying over the fort, which indicated that the force had not formally surrendered. A contemporary newspaper account from Jackson, Tennessee, states that "General Forrest begged them to surrender," but "not the first sign of surrender was ever given." Similar accounts were reported in many Southern newspapers at the time.<18>

These denials, however, are contradicted by accounts of the massacre found in the letters of the Confederate soldiers who were there. Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote the following in a letter to his sister penned immediately after the battle. "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."<19>

Faced with these conflicting claims the U.S. Congress first accused, then cleared, Forrest of responsibility for war crimes at the battle.<20>

[davepc]

1. If the majority of the schools population is black, why isn't that reflected in the board?

I don't get why the makeup of the board is not minority while apparently the school is.

[Fenris]

8. The board represents the whole county, unfortunately.

[14thColony]

10. Duval County is heavily populated with dozens of high schools

The school board does not represent just this one school.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

24. See posts 18-23 below

[Justitia]

2. Holy Shit! Can you imagine??? What assholes they are! -eom

[billyoc]

3. WHAT THE FU--Oh, Florida.

[aquart]

4. Ye gods, he was not a nice man.

[LibDemAlways]

5. That is just unbelievably insensitive. As an aside,

George "Macaca" Allen named his only son Forrest. Wink. Wink.

[Joe Chi Minh]

27. No. It's not insensitive. It's satanic. But God's resourcefulness must be infinite, too,

and I'm sure He'd have been able to create a pit in Hell deep enough and painful enough to suit their malevolence.

"Macaca" sure got his comeuppance down here on earth.

[47of74]

6. Methinks it is time for a change come the next school board election

The next time the school board comes up for reelection, I hope people will vote the current board out of office. Up here in Iowa where I live the board wasn't listening to people about drug dogs - something I happen to disagree with - and they all got swept out of office when their terms were up. So I hope that people in Florida will keep some of the passion alive and vote out the incumbents next time around. Then I think give the school a more fitting name - such as after someone who died in Iraq.

[14thColony]

20. Lt Commander Scott Speicher is a good candidate

US Navy pilot, graduated NBFSH in 1975, shot down the first night of the Gulf War (1991) and only US military still MIA from that conflict.

[bushmeister0]

47. I did a whole thing on him a while back

http://imnotworthy.blogspot.com/2005/05/no-one-left-behind.html

Did you know, before W. & Co. decided upon the WMD excuse, Speicher was thrwon out there as a reason to invade. Note also, Scott Ritter was detailed to find him if he was still alive after the invasion.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

7. As "radical" Rev Wright says in RNC ads, "US of KKK A". Can you imagine being an

African-American student at KKK High School? What kind of abject contempt for students must those school board members possess? Where's the world-wide media coverage?

Are Duval County school board members elected? When is the next election?

[14thColony]

14. Yes, they are elected

Here they are:

http://www.duvalschools.org/static/aboutdcps/schoolboard/overview.asp

Tommy Hazouri, the only male on the school board, is a name I remember well growing up in Jacksonville (which is Duval County, the two governments were combined in the late '60s). He is a leading state-level Democrat, former state Representative, former Jacksonville mayor, and of fairly recent Lebanese descent (it was his father who emmigrated from Lebanon before WWII, I believe).

Don't hold your breath that anyone elected to replace them will vote any differently.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

18. "The 2 govts were combined in the late 60s" NO Jacksonville City govt, only Duval County?

That sounds like intentional dilution of African-American voting strength during the Civil Rights era. Has any civil rights organization ever considered a Voting Rights lawsuit? Having a KKK High School miseducating majority-Black students could be one of hundreds of racist direct results of absence of Home Rule for the city.

[14thColony]

22. I was only like 2 when it happened

But I think it was just to save money, since Jax is the only city in Duval it seemed pointless to have two parallel governments. And actually it's the other way around - there is technically no county government - the city of Jacksonville took over the county. Some legacy names like "county school board" are all that's left of the county government.

Not everything is an evil conspiracy.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

23. Whatever the govt is called, if there's no Home Rule where Blacks predominate,

it's unlawful dilution of Black voting strength, and civil rights organizations can sue.

Having a majority-Black KKK High School that the State rates "F" may be just one symptom of sweeping underlying structural injustice defying the 14th Amendment. If only city residents inside urban Jacksonville voted for school board slots overseeing urban schools, it's reasonable to assume those schools would not be named for KKK and Confederate luminaries, don't you think?

[14thColony]

25. As of 2006 demographic data

Jacksonville proper is 64.48% White/Caucasian, and the county overall is 65.50% White/Caucasian. Therefore I would tend to doubt that the incorporation of the county and city governments has been a huge historical factor. Since most of the Blacks/African Americans in the county, then and now, are in Jacksonville proper, you'd think it would have been the county government that took over the city government had it been a plot to suppress minority rights, and not the city that took over the county.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

30. What are the absolute numbers of whites and "blacks alone or in combination with

other races" in your data source? The proportions are so close I suspect you do not have "central city" data for Jacksonville. A census-tract map of Duval County with racial proportion data may be necessary to distinguish central city from surrounding suburbs.

What proportion of Duval County is comprised of urban areas? of areas where African-Americans predominate?

[ProgressiveEconomist]

32. Just as I suspected. Predominantly Black areas of Duval comprised about 22 percent of the Y2K

Y2K population of 779,000, according to a recent report of the Jacksonville Community Council .

Put together 80 percent Black "Urban Core" and 56 percent Black "Northwest" and you get about 171,000 of 779,000 people county-wide

From http://jcci.org/projects/reports/documents/Race%20Relations%20Progress%20Report.pdf , page 7:

"demographics of jacksonville, florida ...

The progress report focuses on Jacksonville/Duval County, Florida, a consolidated city-county government. Sometimes data in this document refer to the Jacksonville Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), which includes the counties of Clay, Duval, Nassau, and St. Johns. Where possible, the report attempts to capture data representing the broad racial and ethnic diversity of Jacksonville; however, both data limitations and relative population size restrict some of the racial and ethnic breakdowns in the indicators. ...

The 2000 U.S. Census provided the following information ...

The City of Jacksonville is divided geographically into six planning districts. Racial makeup of these planning districts, along with the Beaches and Baldwin municipalities, in 2000 were:

White Black PopulationTotal
17.3% 80.6% 042,635 Urban Core
69.4% 21.8% 186,072 Greater Arlington
81.1% 11.2% 195,721 Southeast
70.6% 21.5% 133,867 Southwest
40.8% 56.4% 128,848 Northwest
66.0% 31.6% 048,474 North
82.2% 12.7% 013,368 Atlantic Beach
90.9% 04.8% 020,990 Jacksonville Beach
96.1% 00.7% 007,270 Neptune Beach
67.1% 30.9% 001,634 Baldwin

Population counts and projections for Duval County by the Bureau of Economic and Business Research are as follows:

Year White Black Hispanic Other PopulationTotal
2000 64.6% 28.0% 4.1% 3.3% 778,879
2010 60.5% 30.3% 5.2% 4.0% 910,502
2020 57.5% 31.9% 5.9% 4.7% 1,026,113
2030 55.3% 33.0% 6.6% 5.1% 1,130,873

[14thColony]

41. I concede to the overwhelming power of your statistics

I've no idea what they show, but I'm more than willing to concede to them anyway. I completely and unabashedly agree with whatever it is you're stating.

[47of74]

37. And our local right wing contingent is soooo concerned about...

And our local right wing contingent is soooo concerned about how Obama will rename the United States the Union of Socialist States of America when they cannot see that by their actions they are enabling the "US of KKK A."

[14thColony]

9. I graduated from Nathan Bedford Forrest Senior HS in 1985

Strange to see my own school in the news. We thought nothing of it back then - very few students had the slightest idea who he was beyond being some Confederate general. But then since Duval's other high schools and junior high schools are called R.E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, J.E.B. Stuart, Jefferson Davis, and so on, N.B. Forrest didn't seem out of place.

I'm sure y'all will be delighted to know that the school's nickname is "The Rebels" by the way.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

11. Did the school fly the Confederate swastika then? Does it still?

[14thColony]

17. No, at least when I was there from 1983 to 1985

The CSA Battle Ensign (the one I assume you're referring to) was banned, at least in terms of offical 'display' on the school's flagstaff. I remember being involved in planning a historical "Flags of Florida History" display as a student, and the Principal was very uncomfortable with having the battle ensign as part of the display, even for historical purposes. Of course there are other 'Confederate flags' that even harcore Southerners would never recognize (the Stars and Bars, the Bonny Blue Flag), so we just used one of those to complete the set. The Stars and Bars still flies as part of the historical flags lineup at the University of Florida, and I don't think anyone has ever said one word about it.

[bushmeister0]

49. The "stars and bars" is flown all over Richmond.

People fly it in front of their houses a lot. From what I've heard they consider it to be the "official" flag of the Confederate government. Many Richmonders are still very aware of the fact that their city was the Capital of the CSA.

Hollywood cemetary is there, after all, the Arlington of the Confedracy, which is protected by black uniformed paramilitary types from the US government.

Anyone know what these guys are, BTW?

[EFerrari]

12. I went to Fremont High School in Silicon Valley. He was a terrorist and a racist too.

Our teams were called the Indians, which makes no sense given Fremont's extreme compulsion to kill as many of them as possible.

[14thColony]

43. Good point

I just Googled "Custer High School" - there are lots of them named for General G.A. Custer of Indian-killin' fame. Doubt the local native American kids are thrilled with that name (many are in the Plains states).

Maybe the best solution is to just number all schools. County High School No.1, County Secondary School No.37, etc. Then mascots could be "the fighting 8s" or "the battling 43s".

[EFerrari]

46. Authors, composers, scientists, inventors. With all respect to the military,

there are a bunch of people who might like a school named after them -- like Molly Ivins or Studs Terkel or John Lennon! lol

[Duppers]

13. uh? "delighted to know"???

nope.

I see what you mean about it not seeming out of place. The much of the south is rather sick in their perspectives (I've the right to say that -- I'm southern!).

They glorify him in Memphis, with a park and a statue:



Just disgusting.

[14thColony]

16. That was meant to be a bit of irony

tinged with sarcasm.

[Duppers]

21. got ya.

thanks.

I'll pull out my sharpener. ;)

[Ian David]

15. The fastest way to get the name changed is for the students to "embrace" it.

They need to start integrating the school's namesake's Klan heritage at all public events.

The horror of The Nathan Bedford Forrest High School Marching Band parading through Time's Square in klan robes during The Macy's Day Parade will get the name changed right quick.

[snake in the grass]

19. As a Duval County escapee...

...this doesn't surprise me at all. There's some real home-grown scum in Jerksonville and that's why I'm so happy I don't live there anymore.

[harmonicon]

26. yep, this confirms it

I'm now using "florida" as a verb. Way to florida that vote, assholes.

[Orrex]

28. This reminds me of my innocent school days at Adolph Hitler Elementary School

With all due respect to our south-based DUers, I have to confess that certain elements of the (reluctantly) former slave states never fail to horrify me.

[happyslug]

29. Nathan Bedford Forest was a complex person

He obtained his colonelcy the old fashion way, he bought it (i.e. he agreed to arm and equip an regiment of Calvary in exchange for being its Colonel, the South accepted his offer but he was the only such Colonel to be promoted above that rank, his promotion above Colonel was on Ability not Connections or money).

Now he had enlisted at the start of the war, fought as an enlistee for a few months then bought out his enlistment AND formed his regiment. He had been a business man who sold things up and down the Mississippi valley before the war, so he had the money to form his regiment. He is also considered the first person on either side of the Conflict to offer freedom to Black Slaves. As he was forming his regiment he realized he needed a good set of supplies, so he turned to the wagon drivers of his business, all Black Slave, and made them an offer, if they would agree to join his regimens as wagoners he would give them and their families their freedom at the end of the war. All Agreed, for Forest knew what would get the blacks to fight, the prospect of Freedom. Forest's slaves knew one thing, Forest could free them at any time, for he had control over them, unlike Lincoln who controlled nothing in the South at that time. When a fellow Southern Politician gave a speech about why the South was fighting the North, that Politician adopted the concept it was not for Slavery and Forest reply was simple (Paraphrased) "If we are NOT fighting for Slavery, why are we fighting?"

As to this School, what the Students need to do is start a Memorial for Ft Pillow and the reason the North STOPPED Prisoner exchanges, the South refused to exchange any Captured Black Soldiers (and the South refusal to punish any officers involved in the massacre of Union Black Soldiers that fell into the hands of the South, one of the worse cases was Pillow where Forest was in Command, Forest gave no Orders to kill the Black Soldiers, but also did nothing to stop it). The South were willing to exchange White Soldiers but not Blacks (Who were considered Run a way slaves unless they could prove otherwise and were "returned" to their owners if that could be determined or re-sold to pay for the cost of keeping them till their masters showed up). As long as the South Refused to Exchange Blacks, the North refused to Exchange ANY prisoners.

[jbane]

36. This is your solution.......are you kidding?

"As to this School, what the Students need to do is start a Memorial for Ft Pillow"
I'm sure the kids at the school are all about that.
The name has to go and go now. The time for Confederate hero worship has come and gone.
And it needs to happen here where I live also, Richmond,VA.

[happyslug]

44. Remember, the School Board has already REJECTED the best solution which is to change the name.

Thus you have Students in a School whose name they want to change BUT CAN NOT. The best way to change that name to to connect that name to Forest's bad side, the Massacre at Ft. Pillow and his later leadership of the KKK. A student Run memorial to Ft Pillow, in my opinion, the best solution, it brings to the public the bad side of Forest and the need for the name change. Something has to be done to get people to want this school's name change to be the Majority of the people of the School District. How do you want to start that campaign? Mass mailings? Protests? Both are just fleeting, a memorial would be a comment on Forest that will be visible by everyone and slowly build up the pressure over time.

[One_Life_To_Give]

45. He in later life opposed the Klan?

Can you shed any light on his change in position regarding the Klan. Going from an early leader to opposition later?

[happyslug]

50. He Dissolved the Klan in 1871, as the Anti-KKK act was being passed.

Now remember we are discussing the post-Civil War Klan, not it much more sinister namesake founded in 1905. The original Klan was a combination Southern White Resistance force, Veteran Organization, Secret Society (which were popular at that time, even the Masons were on a rebound) and a get rich scam (i.e. get more members and the first members would get part of the increase dues, an early Ponzi scam). Being based in the South and made of mostly Southern Whites, it was inherently racist but racism does NOT seem to be its main goal in life. The get rich scream quickly was dismissed as other found it a way to express opposition to the reconstruction Governments of the post Civil War era. Thus by the time Forest seems to have been in Charge of the Klan (about 1866) it was a way for the whites to organize themselves secretly given that it was illegal for most of them to vote (See the Third Section of the 14th Amendment). As the various restrictions on voting and running for office were removed by Congress the need for the Klan as a political organization came to an end. Now part of its political mission was to provide muscle when the leadership wanted it, but given the occupation of the South this had to be carefully used (i.e. not to be used where the occupation troops could appear and captured the Klansman). This meant mostly small units, "Night Riders" as that term was made popular by the propaganda of the post-1905 Klan. The problem was these small units could quickly convert from muscle of the opposition to the reconstruction Governments to outright thieves. By 1869 Grant was in office and asking for passage of the Anti-KKK act, which made it a Federal Offense to suppress Civil Rights under the "Color of law". This is what the Klan had been doing and why Grant asked for the Anti-KKK act (Which is still on the books). At the same time most of the restrictions on Voting by Whites who had served in the Confederate Army had been removed. This one two punch (Making what the Klan had been doing a federal crime AND removing the reason why the Klan had existed by permitting the whites to form legal opposition) seems to be the reason Forest ordered it dissolved in 1869 (You should also add to this the problem of the Klan being made of small units and the growing tendency of those units to add outright thief from even whites).

Thus by 1869 the original Klan had run its course. The white opposition to the Reconstruction Government did NOT believe it was needed any more so it was dissolved. Some aspects of it survived till the full affect of the Anti-KKK act came into force, but what remained of the Klan was killed off by the Anti-KKK act.

One things you must remember, Blacks NEVER really had control of any of the Southern States even during Reconstruction, and the switch over from Reconstruction Governments to post-Reconstruction Governments occurred over a 12 years period (Tennessee for example never technically had a reconstruction Government even through it had succeeded, thus 1865 you had at least one former Southern State already "reconstructed" through this was do more to the fact that President Andrew Johnson had been the only Southern Senator NOT to resign his seat in 1861 and thus was still a sitting Senator from Tennessee till he was sworn in as Vice President on March 4, 1865).

Another thing you must remember is after 1865 the South new it had to get allies from the North to get anything done. Furthermore many of the rules used against the Southern Whites could also be used against Northern Capitalists. In fact the chief reason the three Republicans who refused to vote to Convict Johnson feared that his successor, at that time the President pro temp of the Senate, was to pro-labor for them to convict Johnson and make the president Pro temp President of the United States. As more and more Republicans came to see that these rules could be used against THEMSELVES, the GOP turned against the Radicals who wanted to reform the South. This seems to start in 1868 and accelerate in Grant's First Term (Through Grant seem to be more a Radical Republican but the GOP Controlled Congress had turned against Radical Reforms). This Accelerated in the 1870s as the US entered its worse decade economically between the 1830s and the 1930s (and in some aspects worse, in the 1930s you did NOT have any city fall into the hands of Radical labor groups as happened in 1877 during the General Strike in both Pittsburgh and St Louis). As times became worse in the 1870s (Do in many aspects by the GOP demand that the Government do everything it could to return the Dollar to what it had been since 1787, $20 to a ounce of Gold, achieved by 1874, but cost the GOP control of the House that year).

My point is by 1870 the South was looking for allies in the North and found people willing to be allies, both do to the decline in the economy do to the end of the war and the demand by business that the dollar be returned to $20 to an ounce of Gold, the GOP had lost a good bit of Support in the North. The problem for the South was these potential allies were turned off by the activity of the Klan. Thus the best explanation of the dissolution of the Klan is not only had it run it course, but it had become an issue between the Southern Politicians AND potential allies in the North. Thus the South wanted the issue gone, and thus the Klan was dissolved and there was no serious opposition to the Anti-KKK act even from the South.

Now the Post Civil War South had a lot of segregated Churches and other private institutions, but segregation in commence did not become the norm till the 1890s (And with it the raise of the New Klan founded in 1905). Most Blacks and Whites went to the same stores and the same register in the period up to the 1890s. It is only on the 1890s that you start to see the radical segregation that was common to the south from 1898-1954 (Between the Us Supreme Court Decisions that at first permitted "Separate but Equal" and then outlawed it). The movement for more segregation started in the early 1890s as a result of the recession of 1892 (and the Labor Unrest of the Second Cleveland Administration). This is also the result of the growing urbanization of the South after 1877, basically in rural areas segregation was possible, but hard and expensive for whites let alone blacks. In Urban areas segregation could be done "cheaply" (By basically refusing to cater to the Black Community and concentrating on the white Community). In rural areas a store could barely stay open if open to both communities let alone just one do to the much lower concentration of people.

Now When I am using the term "Urban" I am including not only the major Cities by the Small cities and towns, In fact the Small cities were the worse when it came to segregation for they had a large enough white population to keep one or two stores in business and passed laws forbidding blacks from being in such towns (Remember most blacks in the South, even today, live in RURAL areas of the South NOT the Urban areas including the Small Cities and Towns, that is the opposite of most Northern States).

My point is as long as the South was rural i.e. the small towns were NOT big Enough to be self-sufficient, segregation was almost impossible to be workable. Segregation to be workable needed a concentration of Whites so that any stores or business could make a profit by catering to whites only. If the area was to small in population to do so, segregation while possible, was just to expensive to fully implement.

I bring this up for between 1870, when Forest outlawed the Klan and his death in 1877 (by natural Causes) Forest seems to have adopted the policy of many of his generation, the war was lost, slavery was no more and he had to learn to deal with Blacks as fellow citizens instead of as property. Segregation could occur on the margins of Society but true separation of the races required more effort, and money. then he was willing to do, or spend.

By the 1890s most the the South had Railroads and highways (Both deficient during the Civil War and in the Reconstruction era) so concentration of people in what we would call a city was possible, and with those transportation lines segregation as practice between 1898 and 1954 was possible. Thus it is the 1890s and 1900-1910 that you see segregation becoming the law of the land NOT before (The Federal Government was not segregated till 1913 when Wilson did so as President, the only Democrat between 1896 and 1932 and this appears to be more to keep southern Democrats happy then any real support from Wilson who had a tendency to view segregation and the "lost Cause" as stupid, but as a politician he had to comply with what his people wanted).

Getting back to the Question you made, Forest's attitude seems to reflect what was politically needed at that period of time. Pro-Slavery during the Civil War, Anti-reconstruction Government post Civil War, and finally acceptance of Free Blacks as the price for northern Allies to help the South after 1870. Thus Forest is more an indication of how the South was reacting to what was occurring both locally and nationally then any personal thoughts or dogma of his own. You will not hear anyone quote him on Government, policy, education, race relations etc except to show what most people of his time period were thinking (his last speech for example he said he had long been a friend of the "Colored Race" using the term most common used for people we now call African-Americans). Thus Forest is a person to look at to see how most people of the South thought and acted during this life time, but NOT a person to look to for indication of policy or where the South was going (i.e more a reflection of where the south was and had been as oppose to where the south was going).

[One_Life_To_Give]

51. 1860's Klan vs. 1905 and later

Thanks for the history lesson.
It seems ot me that most of the objection is the perception of Forest as a leader in the 1905 version of the Klan. May not be a hero of African-Americans but doesn't appear to be in the same classification as a David Duke.

[happyslug]

52. David Duke would be classified as a Reactionary.

Forest is more a Burkean Conservative i.e. no objection to change, but what to take to slow and then only change the things that are needed to be change NOT everything. Furthermore such Conservatives accept change once done, look at the GOP (Except the Right Wing) between 1940 and 1970, Conservative but accepting the New Deal and even defending those part of the New Deal that clearly worked (i.e. Social Security, increase regulation of business etc). Once the Civil War was over, Forest accepted the result, he never made an effort to reverse what the Civil War changed in the South (i.e. Blacks not only no longer slaves, but also able to vote and own property).

David Duke wants to return to a South that never really existed, one where Whites were the "Masters" and blacks were the lowly workers. That is the key to being reactionary and the South starting about 1890 started to embrace a reactionary view of race relations. It should be noted so was the North. For example, Theodore Roosevelt, after the Battle of San Juan Hill commented that the men of the Tenth and Ninth Calvary Regiments could drink out of his canteen any time (In respect for the fact these two "Colored" Regiments Charged up San Juan Hill along side the men of his Rough Riders) but when he ran for Governor of New York he said he had to use a bayonet to get them to the top of the hill (Which was his attempt to get the anti-black vote in New York State for himself).

The biggest progressive (as that term was used then, for what we today in the US call Liberal) of either major party (I must exclude Eugene Debs from this discussion for he was only a third party candidate), William Jennings Bryan had to walk a fine line. He made no Anti-black speeches and used no anti-black code words while also trying his best NOT to turn Southern Whites against him (Bryan knew he needed the Southern Whites to win so he had to keep them happy). FDR followed that pattern, except he was more progressive on Civil Rights on paper then Bryan had ever been (But Bryan ran in 1896, 1904 and 1908 the height of Jim Crow, while FDR running in 1932, 1936, 1940 and 1944 was running as those Jim Crow laws were still strong but in decline as the Klan has dissolved in the mid-1920s). In 1948 the Dixiecrats left the Democratic Party and when it leaders was asked why given Truman was not saying anything FDR did not say, the reply was telling "But Truman actually means it".

Remember the 1905 Klan did the first large non-military parade in Washington DC in the 1920s, but this was an attempt to show people how strong it was for it was already in decline. Bryan actually said in the 1920s why he did not speak out against the Klan and he responded that he refused to condemn them for the Klan, as then organized, would soon fall apart. To condemn the Klan would make its members mad at you for attacking them, instead attack the extremes the Klan stood for and complement it for its progressive stands (Pro-America, progressive economic policy etc). The internal conflict between the Klan's progressive economic agenda (and its claim to be a pro-American institution) and suppression of blacks would break the organization and then you could recruit the best elements for the Democrats (Hugo Black is an example of this, a Klansman in the 1920s when the Klan was at its height and one of the greatest defender of Civil Rights once he was appointed to the Supreme Court). In Bryan' minds the racist would still exist but they were a small minority in the Klan of the 1920s (Through the leaders of the Klan and their thugs). Such leadership would soon review itself and most of the member of the Klan of the 1920s would be repulsed by it and the Klan would disappear. Bryan told his fellow Democrats to ride the wave, but don't embrace the Klan but also do not condemn it, the Democrats to win Congress and the Presidency needed many of he voters who join the Klan do to the hardships they were undergoing and once that majority realized the Klan was NOT the answer would abandon it. Note I did not say Bryan said NOT to Condemn Racism, but he was a practical politician, condemn it but make sure the condemnation the cost in votes are minimal. FDR followed this advice to the letter, even Lyndon Johnson knew of this problem and it is why he told his advisers that his signature on the 1964 Civil Rights Act would cost the Democrats the South for a Generation, but the Democrats of the 1960s could afford to lose the South, the Democrats of the 1920s and 1930s could not.

One last comment on Forest (Getting back to him from Civil Rights and party politics since 1900). Prior to about 1980 the most books on Southern Generals was dominated by Works on General Lee, since about 1980 Forest has become the top subject of Books on Confederate Generals of the Civil War. Why is this the case is an open question. I suspect it has a lot to do with the raise of what is called the "Fourth Klan" i.e. the KKK that exists today. The Klan today is less connected to the power elites of the South then the Klan of the 1950s and 1960s. That Klan started out as the remains of the 1905 Klan, but dropped all pretense of being anything but a racist organization. The difference between the post WWII Klan and today's klan is a clearer division between local Government in the South and the Klan (You do not have as many Klansman who are also Police Officers as you did in the 1960s and even fewer of them are willing to commit the crimes such Police/Klansman did in the 1950s and 1960s). The state Government want to keep the Klan today separate from the Government (unlike the 1950s and 1960s where many of the rural Counties the Klan and the local Government were one and the same) but also the Local Government do NOT want to turn them away as voters and volunteers when it come to Elections. Thus the difference between the Klan of the 1960s and the Klan of today is more of degree then reality. And do to the decision of Lyndon Johnson these Klansman have abandoned the Democratic Party and joined the GOP (The Klan of the 1960s were still overwhelm Democrats but Democrats the Democratic party wanted no part of).

Anyway back to Forest, he was more a Guerrilla Leader then a straight Calvary man. He did NOT try to Control the territory he was assigned but used his power as a guerrilla leader to obtain supplies from the area from people loyal to the South. It is this guerrilla leadership more then anything else that brings his name to fame. With all of the Survivalist out they, what Forest did sound what they are looking at when the Government collapses in some-sort of race riot (I disagree with this position but this is the position many of these Survivalist adopt as their Dogma). Thus they read Forest without understanding WHY he Surrendered on May 20th 1865 (He was the last major Southern Force East of the Mississippi to Surrender). The reason being you can NOT fight a Guerrilla war if what you are fighting for is no longer possible to be achieved i.e. Slavery was dead. These Survivalists do NOT understand why Forest dissolved the Klan in 1870 (ALL military action is secondary to Politics, if military actions interfere with obtaining Political objectives, the Military operations must end thus Forest's dissolution of the Klan as interfering with the South's political objective of obtaining self-rule). Thus Forest is popular among the Survivalists but for all the wrong reasons, it is for his military actions but as a guerrilla leaders that was secondary to his Political actions but the Survivalists do NOT understand the difference.

[tularetom]

31. If I was a black kid at that high school

I could get a lot of shit started that would make them want to change the name. Like voting to change the schools nicname to "the Wizards", havin the mascot be a guy with a sheet and a pointy hood running around at all the games and events, dress the whole marching band in sheets and hoods, burn a cross at the pep rallies (do they still even have pep rallies or have I just dated myself) and just generally make a big ass joke out of Bedford Forrest and the whole KKK thing.

[rateyes]

33. How did I know that their nickname is "The Rebels?"

From the school's website.

[14thColony]

42. Yes, like I said upthread already...

[pam4water]

34. The students should just keep ripping down the school name form the building

until the board get the clue.

[jfkraus]

35. I bet if they got an offer from Sprint or Comcast

they would change the name in seconds. Money talks. Just imagine "Comcast High School."

[ProgressiveEconomist]

38. Great idea! Or, Federal laws and regulations could be changed to take away funds

from schools with inappropriate, hateful names that destroy students' school pride.

[Blue_Tires]

39. fuckin' neck racists....

and i love the woman who called him 'a military genius'...

[MrScorpio]

40. Run, Forrest, Run

[damntexdem]

48. What that H.S. needs is some sneaky graffiti artists.

And a student body that refuses to utter the supposed name of the school.