Karzai 'demands' Obama end civilian deaths after latest incident

[Pale Blue Dot]

Source: USA Today

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Afghan President Hamid Karzai made an immediate demand of Barack Obama on Wednesday, saying the president-elect must prevent civilian casualties as Afghan villagers alleged that airstrikes killed or wounded dozens of women and children in a wedding party.

No Afghan officials could immediately confirm the number of alleged casualties, but Karzai referred to the incident at a news conference held to congratulate Obama on his U.S. presidential election victory.

Karzai said he hopes the election will "bring peace to Afghanistan, life to Afghanistan and prosperity to the Afghan people and the rest of the world." He applauded America for its "courage" in electing Obama.

But he also used the occasion to immediately press Obama to find a way to prevent civilians casualties in operations by foreign forces. He then said airstrikes had caused deaths in the Shah Wali Kot district of Kandahar province.

"Our demand is that there will be no civilian casualties in Afghanistan. We cannot win the fight against terrorism with airstrikes," Karzai said. "This is my first demand of the new president of the United States — to put an end to civilian casualties."

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-11-05-afghanistan-violence_N.htm?csp=netvibes

---

And so it begins.

[Demeter]

1. Well, If Pelosi Could Be Bothered to Do Her Job....

[Enrique]

2. kind of a snub to Bush

what is he, chopped liver?

[whopis01]

13. no...

a significant number of people actually like chopped liver.

[Roy]

21. No, The perpetrator... n/t

[nichomachus]

3. Careful, Hamid

The Bush Crime Family does not deal kindly with former friends who are no longer convenient. Just ask Manuel Noriega or Saddam Hussein.

[ixion]

4. we should pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq immediately

because we never should have invaded them in the first place.

[BunkerHill24]

15. My friend some would disagree with you, but I absolutely agree with you

....End the occupation...bring the troops home...and re-build our infrastructure.

[knixphan]

26. seconded.

[INDIA]

18. Obama disagrees with you. On Afghanistan at least. nt

[ixion]

19. Yes, I know. It's one of the reasons I was hesitant to support him

and it will be one of the reasons that I cease to support him in the future, potentially.

[INDIA]

22. Just curious, what is your problem with Obama's plans for Afghanistan?

Everything I've read so far show a well thought out, multi-lateral approach to combatting ACTUAL Al-Qaeda and their suporters (Taliban.)

Pulling out of Afghanistan with so much to do still and SO much to lose would be completely stupid. But you're entitled to your opinion of course.

[ixion]

23. nothing left to do, everything to lose

ask the ex Soviet Union if it was a good idea to "stay the course" in Afghanistan. We've lost there. Staying only means more war crimes committed in our name, and with our tax dollars. I want no part of that.

And I'd watch where you're throwing the word 'stupid' around, as that may come back to bite you in the a** someday.

[INDIA]

24. Can you find me a single Dem politician who supports an

IMMEDIATE withdrawl from Afghanistan? One?

You're basically advocating letting the Taliban take the country back over. The women and little girls in Afghanistan would probably think that's "stupid."

[ixion]

28. Yes, it's so much better when we kill them instead

:eyes:

[INDIA]

30. Yes, it's so much better to let the Taliban and Al Qaeda take over.

You are ignorant of what the Taliban and Al Qaeda are and why they are worth fighting and killing. It's pure religious fundamentalist EVIL. Eradicate it.

[ixion]

31. violence only begets violence... or, to quote Einstein

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."

Also, I might mention we've got our own brand of dangerous religious extremist right here at home, and we should worry about that problem first.

But hey, thanks for your condescending responses. I can truly tell you don't know what the hell you're talking about, nor are you willing to discuss anything rationally. Rather, you resort to shill responses and name calling. Beautiful. :hi:

[Psephos]

32. Actually, you're the one who has used condescension and insinuation

presumably because you think there can only be one right opinion, and don't want to address the fates of innocents under fundie Taliban enforcers in that misbegotten land.

There's merit in some of what you say. But none in the way you "tolerate" a difference of opinion.

[ixion]

34. um...

I'm not the one calling names. In any case, I admit that I feel strongly about my opinion on this matter. However, at the same time I understand that this is not the only opinion. It is however, mine, and I stand by it, just as you stand by yours. There are religious atrocities such as this going on all over the world. Tibet has been suffering for years under the strangulating rule of the Chinese, but you don't here much about that.

As a nation, we cannot be all things to all people and everywhere at once, especially now. 6 years of military brutality thanks to the Bush cabal has made the situation untenable at the moment. A US military presence only makes things worse.

I'm not for ANY religious extremist group torturing the local population. It's a horrible thing. On the other hand, I'm a realist. There is no military solution in Afghanistan. That is not to say there are not other ways to solve the problem.

In general and in practice, I am against military solutions to geopolitical issues. They never work. Also, there's the fact that a standing army such as we have in Afghanistan has never prevailed in a guerrilla war with the local populace.

I'm happy to debate this with you rationally. :)

[Psephos]

38. You sound considerably more reasonable than I first thought

I appreciate your civility. :)

It's frustrating when people on a progressive forum such as DU exhibit the exact opposite of "tolerance and diversity" when encountering opinions different from their own. (Not that those words mean much anymore.) It seems I misread you here, and I regret it.

Meanwhile, perhaps we can discuss the Afghanistan issue further...but later. I have to get up at 5:00 tomorrow (ugh).

[Alamuti Lotus]

37. responding to a few different points,

Taliban are already retaking the country, every bomb falling from the sky is another foot closer. I suspect that the women and little girls very strongly object to being blown up at wedding parties, something that happens with disturbing frequency. I don't need or want politicians to speak for me, they've all fucked things up enough thank you very much.

[bitchkitty]

25. Opinions are like assholes -

but I think that Afghanistan might want a say in the matter. Russia pulled out of Afghanistan because they gave up. The people didn't want them there, they fought "like wolves", according to an officer quoted in a newspaper story I read at the time, and nothing was accomplished. Except of course the birth of Al Qaeda, thanks to us. Now, years later, we're in Afghanistan. They don't want us there either.

So what's left to do in Afghanistan? I'm sure there are plenty of civilians left - should we kill them all? What exactly is it we must do? Convert them? Jail them? Or convince them that they love the USA and want to be our friend?

Now THAT is stupid.

[INDIA]

29. Yes yes, we're trying to kill them all. Bloodthirsty President Obama

wants to kill every last civilian in Afghanistan. That's it. That's the ticket.


:eyes:


Comparing our actions in Afghanistan (especially in light of our recent election that will result in a much needed change of tactics) to those of the Soviet Union is borderline retarded. Maybe not even borderline.

Read a friggin book. We're fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda in a sometimes reckless manner, and unfortunately killing civilians. The Soviets were shooting and bombing anything that moved. Stalinistic scorched earth murder. That's why the population rose up in unison against them. We're just fighting the Taliban at this point. And they need to be exterminated. They are the most evil fundie fucks on planet earth.

Obama is going to cut down on the air raids and drone attacks, and increase our troop presence and the use of special forces. It will work. And it's a fight worth fighting. This is the real enemy.

[bitchkitty]

39. You know damned good and well I was not referring to Obama.

If less people are killed in Afghanistan, good. But I don't think the answer is to wipe out as many soldiers as we can, in an army that WE created.

[leftchick]

5. I suggest that Obama study Nir Rosen's work

He explains quite graphically how that "war" is already lost and western diplomats are talking exit strategy.



Rollingstone.com


How We Lost the War We Won
A journey into Taliban-controlled Afghanistan

NIR ROSEN

Posted Oct 30, 2008 9:19 AM

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23612315/how_we_lost_the_war_we_won/print






• Embedded with the Taliban: Photos and commentary by Nir Rosen
• Video Interview: Nir Rosen on his experience in Afghanistan

The highway that leads south out of Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, passes through a craggy range of arid, sand-colored mountains with sharp, stony peaks. Poplar trees and green fields line the road. Nomadic Kuchi women draped in colorful scarves tend to camels as small boys herd sheep. The hillsides are dotted with cemeteries: rough-hewn tombstones tilting at haphazard angles, multicolored flags flying above them. There is nothing to indicate that the terrain we are about to enter is one of the world's deadliest war zones. On the outskirts of the capital we are stopped at a routine checkpoint manned by the Afghan National Army. The wary soldiers single me out, suspicious of my foreign accent. My companions, two Afghan men named Shafiq and Ibrahim, convince the soldiers that I am only a journalist. Ibrahim, a thin man with a wispy beard tapered beneath his chin, comes across like an Afghan version of Bob Marley, easygoing and quick to smile. He jokes with the soldiers in Dari, the Farsi dialect spoken throughout Afghanistan, assuring them that everything is OK.

As we drive away, Ibrahim laughs. The soldiers, he explains, thought I was a suicide bomber. Ibrahim did not bother to tell them that he and Shafiq are midlevel Taliban commanders, escorting me deep into Ghazni, a province largely controlled by the spreading insurgency that now dominates much of the country.

Until recently, Ghazni, like much of central Afghanistan, was considered reasonably safe. But now the province, located 100 miles south of the capital, has fallen to the Taliban. Foreigners who venture to Ghazni often wind up kidnapped or killed. In defiance of the central government, the Taliban governor in the province issues separate ID cards and passports for the Taliban regime, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Farmers increasingly turn to the Taliban, not the American-backed authorities, for adjudication of land disputes.

By the time we reach the town of Salar, only 50 miles south of Kabul, we have already passed five tractor-trailers from military convoys that have been destroyed by the Taliban. The highway, newly rebuilt courtesy of $250 million, most of it from U.S. taxpayers, is pocked by immense craters, most of them caused by roadside bombs planted by Taliban fighters. As in Iraq, these improvised explosive devices are a key to the battle against the American invaders and their allies in the Afghan security forces, part of a haphazard but lethal campaign against coalition troops and the long, snaking convoys that provide logistical support.

We drive by a tractor-trailer still smoldering from an attack the day before, and the charred, skeletal remains of a truck from an attack a month earlier. At a gas station, a crowd of Afghans has gathered. Smoke rises from the road several hundred yards ahead.

"Jang," says Ibrahim, who is sitting in the front passenger seat next to Shafiq. "War. The Americans are fighting the Taliban."


Shafiq and Ibrahim use their cellphones to call their friends in the Taliban, hoping to find out what is going on. Suddenly, the chatter of machine-gun fire erupts, followed by the thud of mortar fire and several loud explosions that shake the car. I flinch and duck in the back seat, cursing as Shafiq and Ibrahim laugh at me.

"Tawakkal al Allah," Shafiq lectures me. "Depend on God."

This highway — the only one in all Afghanistan — was touted as a showpiece by the Bush administration after it was rebuilt. It provides the only viable route between the two main American bases, Bagram to the north and Kandahar to the south. Now coalition forces travel along it at their own risk. In June, the Taliban attacked a supply convoy of 54 trucks passing through Salar, destroying 51 of them and seizing three escort vehicles. In early September, not far from here, another convoy was attacked and 29 trucks were destroyed. On August 13th, a few days before I pass through Salar, the Taliban staged an unsuccessful assassination attempt on the U.S.-backed governor of Ghazni, wounding two of his guards.

As we wait at the gas station, Shafiq and Ibrahim display none of the noisy indignation that Americans would exhibit over a comparable traffic jam. To them, a military battle is a routine inconvenience, part of life on the road. Taking advantage of the break, they buy a syrupy, Taiwanese version of Red Bull called Energy at a small shop next door. At one point, two green armored personnel carriers from NATO zip by, racing toward Kabul. Shafiq and Ibrahim laugh: It looks like the coalition forces are fleeing the battle.

"Bulgarians," Shafiq says, shaking his head in amusement.



<snip>

A few miles later, at a lonely desert checkpoint manned by the Afghan army, several soldiers with AK-47s make small talk with Shafiq and Ibrahim, asking them about the battle before waving us through. As night falls, we pass a police station. We have reached Ghazni province.

"From now on, it's all Taliban territory," Ibrahim tells me. "The Americans and police don't come here at night."

Shafiq laughs. "The Russians were stronger than the Americans," he says. "More fierce. We will put the Americans in their graves."

[saigon68]

36. Sounds like some thing I was once a part of

a little piece of a screwed up world

[humbled_opinion]

6. Remove us from these

FUBAR missions. The smart thing to do would be to scale back military involvement in Bush's failed wars. It will send a clear message to the world that we will not participate in ill concevied agression on any country. There is no reason that this first step cannot be accomplished starting Jan 2oth.

[Why Syzygy]

12. I was thinking the same thing.

Dump this "strategy" and retool. There's a better way. This is nothing but mutual suicide.

[Andrushka]

7. Fair enough

"We cannot win the fight against terrorism with airstrikes"

He does have a point, and one I hope isn't lost on president-elect Obama (damn that feels good to write. I may do it again: president-elect Obama)

[still_one]

8. That is all fine and good, but he is going to have to wait until Janurary /nt

[happygoluckytoyou]

9. Change is coming--- we just have to wait for Sarah to get home, and for W to vacate

[ananda]

10. At least he can ask!

The new President will be there to answer.

[NashVegas]

11. Hammy Baby - Try Your Buddy George Bush

He's the one who installed you in this mess.

[LVjinx]

14. Newsflash to this guy: his buddy Bush is in charge another couple months

It's a little early to start making DEMANDS of an administration that isn't even in power yet.

[mulsh]

16. Didn't bush install oil exec. Karzai?

oh wait, yes he did. Perhaps along with revamping our mission in Afghanistan President Obama can work with the Afghanistanis to fins a much more suitable person for his position.

[gasperc]

17. Yeah, ok, we hvae ONE President at a time

as much as I don't like it, take your shit up with Bush. Don't be demanding shit from Obama, otherwise you'll get a fist sandwich from gasperc

[uppityperson]

20. I am SO glad Obama is such a calm and collected and intelligent guy.

SO glad that we now have this type president-elect to deal with the world crisis caused, in a great part, by the last moran.

[AlCzervik]

27. Karzai should work on jailing his own drug dealing brother for starters.

[Imagevision]

33. Tell Gates to take care of it...

[RCinBrooklyn]

35. First, we depose Karzaid and then we help Afghanistan.

[yellowcanine]

40. Well he is out of line. Obama is not yet the CIC. He needs to address those comments to Bush or

the American generals in Afghanistan.

Russia is also out of line for pressing Obama about the missile shield for the same reason.