California Gay Marriage Vote Still Undecided

[femmedem]

Source: Associated Press

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A proposed ban on same-sex marriage in California - widely seen as the most momentous of the 153 ballot measures at stake nationwide - remained undecided early Wednesday.

The proposed constitutional amendment would limit marriage to heterosexual couples, the first time such a vote has taken place in state where gay unions are legal.

Sponsors of the ban declared victory early Wednesday, but the measure's opponents said too many votes remained uncounted for the race to be called.

......

Late absentee and provisional ballots meant as many as 3 million ballots were left to be counted after all precinct votes were tallied.

Read more: http://www.theday.com/re_ap.aspx?re=/B/BALLOT_MEASURES

---

:bounce:

[aquart]

1. Do they PLAN to count those votes?

Just asking.

[CreekDog]

13. Most of the late votes are absentees dropped at the polls on election day --they will be counted

CA law requires it.

[crikkett]

2. as of an hour ago the SoS site says the margin is abou 350,000

and I do hope they count the ballots.

[slackmaster]

9. Absentee ballots in California tend to lean conservative

They include a lot of older people and active-duty military.

[CreekDog]

14. Not absentees dropped at polling places

Absentees you see in the initial totals are the conservative ones.

[David__77]

17. My vote is one of those!

We will see. Honestly, I'm pretty sure it will pass, but will be a close one. It probably won't go into effect anyway, but a clear electoral validation of marriage equality would have been great. Either way, we have done tremendously better than the 23-point loss in 2000.

[Peace Patriot]

24. That's not true any more. Many progressive voters now choose AB voting to avoid

voting on Puke/Corpo-Fascist voting machines, or just in protest against them (even if their ballots are scanned into the riggable electronics), and large, sparsely populated, rural areas--like the one I'm living in--have had AB voting enforced on us, as a cost-cutting measure (so that our corrupt county registrars can give more of our tax money to Diebold & brethren). We have no choice.

The demographics of AB voting have really changed, at least in California.

[gvstn]

3. Thanks for the update!

[comtec]

4. 3 million...

and one of those is MINE!
3 million... *grins*
You know that absentee voters tend to be more liberal and thoughtful on these things.
I think we have (at least a snowball's) chance in hell in stopping this thing!
THIS IS CALIFORNIA!
WE GIVE A FUCK!

sorry... had a Disney moment... lets go back to moping with our LGBT brethren and sisters. it's going to be a long week.

[cyndensco]

5. Wow. Arkansas voted to ban umarried couples from adoption/foster parenting?

I guess the thousands of children waiting for a good family will certainly be happy to hear that! :sarcasm:

Thank God 52% of Americans voted for Obama yesterday. Hell, though, we have a long way to go.

[kdmorris]

7. Yeah, Florida voted to outlaw gay marriage AND civil unions

What can you expect from a state that still bans homosexuals (even single ones) from adopting children.

That was a huge blow for me. But Wexler kept his seat, and Obama won, so 2/3 of my night was wonderful.

[GinaMaria]

6. the difference is striking

a philosophy of inclusion vs. a philosophy of exclusion. Why are the right wingers or even right of moderate people so quick to exclude others from having rights? Why do they seek to ammend the Constitution or enact laws that deny human rights to people?

[slackmaster]

8. I think it's basically about religion

A substantial number of California voters are either Roman Catholic or belong to a conservative Protestant sect.

[closeupready]

10. That's no excuse for hatred, though.

You understand that, right?

[slackmaster]

11. I think I understand it better than you do

Because for most of the Proposition 8 advocates it is ABSOLUTELY NOT about hatred.

It's about fear. Most of them have no hatred in their hearts. They are afraid of change, afraid of having to explain to their children things they'd just as soon not see or hear or have to think about because those things make them uncomfortable.

[trashcanistanista]

16. This is about hate. Pure and simple.

This is also about Morman money coming into our state. This is about blatant, fear-mongering lies used by the church in their ads and phone calls to foster and nurture bigotry. There have been hateful, screaming confrontations between these religious persons and No on 8 advocates. I have seen it with my own eyes. I will never see christians in the same light again. Their reputation is forever tarnished. This prop must go down. I am holding out for a defeat.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. They claim it is not about hate

but it is. The results of denial of civil rights are the same no matter the subtle spin that is put on the motives.
Of course they will claim not to hate, but their actions are the actions of hate. If they are that fear filled, they become delusional. Even the Nazis did not embrace hate, they claimed to have the best interest of society at heart, while they slaughtered those unlike them. They did not call it hate either.
Those willing to oppress others out of fear of change, which is constant, or out of fear of being uncomfortable or raising their own damn kids, are perhaps even worse than openly hate filled people. Fear is the most dangerous and deadly of emotions. Those who yeild to fear and give it sway over their actions are still responsible for those actions. When fear makes them turn on their peers seeking to hold them back and keep them down, that fear is at least as bad as an acknowleged hatred. The results are the same. And it is by their fruits that we shall know them, according to the Book they idolize.

[closeupready]

21. Yup. Absolutely. Because nobody is going to say, "oh, voted for it because I hate gays."

and it's ridiculous for anyone to imply that fear is the only motive.

[slackmaster]

26. Who hear implied that fear was their only motive?

And a question for you:

In general terms, how do you handle a fearful person?

For example, your child wakes up screaming in the night because of a scary TV show or a bedtime story told by your eccentric brother-in-law.

What do you do?

Ridicule the child?

Accuse the child of being hateful?

Say Uncle Billy is just a bad person?

Or do you calmy reassure the child that there is nothing to be afraid of?

By focusing on what you perceive to be hatred among people who oppose same-sex marriage, you are in fact perpetuating the misunderstanding and justifying their attitudes.

[Terran]

25. You're right in part, but there is a lot of hate out there too.

And I don't think it matters much what the motive is. And I don't get this thing about "explaining" it to kids--what is there to explain? When two people love each other they get married if they want to, simple as that. Not like it's brain surgery, kids can see examples of this on TV these days.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. It is not just the right

Thus far, one in four California Obama voters has voted for Prop Hate. That's 1 in 4 Obama voters. So the news is mixed, as what we learn is not all about 'them' and is in part about 'us'.

[slackmaster]

15. People make a lot of incorrect assumptions about "package deals" of attitudes on issues

Real human behavior is often more nuanced and difficult to quantify.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Well not me

I knew this would happen. I know how bigoted many people are who claim to be only the victims of bigotry. I know this. I have worked in minority and chirstian communities trying to save the lives of their people for ages.
It is not more nuanced. It is just that many people hold onto their own intolerance like it was part and parcel of their soul. That is not nuanced.
I fully expected 20% or so of Obama voters to express their well known prejudices, and this morning I am proven correct. So don't assume I made any assumptions, kid. You are attempting to give nuance to bigotry. No nuance present, no spin helps. It is exactly how I knew it would turn out, because I know California, all of it. I predicted this the day the CA court gave marriage rights in the first place.

[surrealAmerican]

22. They're playing a zero-sum game.

Denying rights to others means they have more. They win if you lose.

[barbtries]

23. i don't know

but i think it has to do with fear, feelings of inadequacy, and maybe they weren't loved enough as children. an inability to grow up? but really, i don't know and it baffles me too.

it's a mean irony that on the same day the nation tears down one wall so many of its citizens rush to build others.

[gtar100]

36. This is so sad. It shows we have a lot of work to do still.

Legislating discrimination is just plain wrong. What makes marriage so sacrosanct that we have to deny people the right? I think California is trashing their constitution with this amendment. And they do no honor to marriage because it no longer simply means love and commitment to that love between two people. It now requires the correct set of body parts only.

The vote count also means that many people who voted for Obama also voted for this hurtful, discriminatory bill. In my view, that's just mixed up.

[Maat]

19. Wouldn't it be good to cross-post this in the GLBT section?

This PFLAGer is VERY upset today; but, I hold out hope!

And, I will continue to fight for equality for all!

[Piewhacket]

27. Great day for America, Not CAs best day.

If principles of fairness and equality ruled the day here in CA,
Prop 8 would fail massively.

But that day of equality is not today, apparently , for Prop 8 isn't failing
massively, and unless later counted ballots are greatly against
the measure it appears poised to pass. Once again, discrimination will
appear not merely in the laws of California, but enshrined in the CA
constitution in its most basic provision, equal protection of law.
Californians have not heaped glory upon themselves today.

The majority don't care about gay rights. They see only the jealous need
to reserve a name "marriage" to themselves.
That is disappointing but not shocking, people tend to view the world through
the lens of their own self-interest, their own version of bigotry.
Yet it would be well if we all better understood that that our own rights
depend on a willingness to recognize that others should have equal rights.

It has been a great day for Obama, for Democrats, for America.
Yet challenges remain to Americas ideal of equal protection of law for all.
But that true day of equality, for CA, does not appear to be today.

[coffeenap]

28. California Gay Marriage Vote Still Undecided

Source: AP

California gay marriage vote still undecided
By LISA LEFF (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
November 05, 2008 11:54 AM EST

LOS ANGELES - A proposed ban on same-sex marriage in California - widely seen as the most momentous of the 153 ballot measures at stake nationwide - remained undecided early Wednesday.

The proposed constitutional amendment would limit marriage to heterosexual couples, the first time such a vote has taken place in state where gay unions are legal.

Sponsors of the ban declared victory early Wednesday, but the measure's opponents said too many votes remained uncounted for the race to be called.

Read more: http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20081105/49112850_3ca6_1552620081105793016748

---

So, there is still hope???

[Maat]

29. I'm still holding out hope ..

but at the same time, I'm preparing to donate to the legal fund to fight this. If the court fight is unsuccessful, then we repeal it. We fight on!

[deepthought42]

39. Exactly!

I don't know what I can do from the east coast, but I want to do something... Someday this may come up in Maryland...

[billyoc]

30. Well, that's good news. CA IS a huge state to have all the votes counted so quickly.

[coffeenap]

31. sorry, posted just before the other showed up on my list.

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. There is no realistic hope

http://vote.sos.ca.gov/props/index.html

With 96.4% (24,510 of 25,423) precincts reporting as of 9:33am PST, the vote on Proposition 8 stands thus:

YES: 5,220,694 52.2%
NO: 4,792,873 47.8%

There is no realistic hope that half a million No votes can be found.

[succubus.blues]

33. I dunno...

95% of the precincts are reported right now, and it's 52 to 48. I think it's gonna pass. :grr:

[fascisthunter]

34. LA Times claims it passed

[Aslanspal]

35. This from a Right Wing Religious board they are giddy

http://www.fundamentalforums.com/showthread.php?t=58985


by all means meet their criteria and join up













I am Dr. Gene on the board and I take on these bullys, it would be nice to diminish these wackos and now is the time.

[gtar100]

37. You've got fortitude, Aslanspal.

I think you're right about taking them on there. Your approach seems good and shows it doesn't need to be done like a troll. Challenge them on their ideas and thinking without falling into name calling. I'm not sure I could do that right now. I was pretty revolted by some of the comments there. But I honor your bravery. A new kind of warrior indeed.

[Aslanspal]

38. It makes me feel good

I don't like them just getting away with just parroting propaganda all day and all night, I use satire a lot , which helps, I was banned on the Baptist Board and that was orchestrated but I lasted two years.


If people only knew a few Progressives can hold off a whole army of fundy wack jobs, I would say one good rationale progressive can hold off 10 bible thumpers.

[janet118]

40. Move to Massachusetts . . .

We could use your talents, intelligence, energy, and skills. I know the weather is a bit colder, but we would give you a warm welcome and you can always go back to California when it grows up.