Democrats to White House: Preserve your records

[Purveyor]

Source: Associated Press

(11-13) 08:56 PST WASHINGTON (AP) --

Senate Democrats on the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees last week told the White House to preserve all records produced by the Bush administration and expressed "particular concerns" whether Vice President Dick Cheney's office will comply with the law.

"We believe it is vital the presidential and vice presidential documents belonging to the American people be preserved, including those related to key national security decisions in which the (office of the vice president) played an important role," the senators wrote in the Nov. 7 letter to White House lawyer Fred Fielding. The letter was obtained by The Associated Press.

The letter was sent by Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island, Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, Sen. John D. Rockefeller of West Virginia and Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California. They asked Fielding to detail steps being taken to preserve White House documents and hand them over to the National Archives and Records Administration.

The senators asked whether the White House believes that any notes, document and records created in the White House by the president, vice president and their staffs may be destroyed without first consulting with the archivist of the United States, and if so which ones. It also asks whether Fielding has investigated a Washington Post report that some presidential orders are kept off White House records in a safe in office of the vice president's lawyer.

"We have particular concerns ... regarding documents in the possession of the Office of the Vice President," the letter said. Citing ongoing litigation over the preservation of Cheney's records, the senators wrote: "the declarations filed in that case by the Office of the Vice President raise serious concerns about its interpretations of the (Presidential Records Act)."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/13/national/w085604S06.DTL

[liberal N proud]

1. Preserve them so we know who to put in jail

I hope!

[bullimiami]

4. so if they shred everything what will ever happen to them?

until we start to prosecute powerful people for the crimes they commit rather than just talking about it and then passing more laws they will just ignore, they will just keep on ignoring them.

[phantom power]

2. Those records were being destroyed 30 seconds after McCain's concession

if not before.

[acmavm]

12. That's what I think as well, too. You betcha!

[badgervan]

20. Remember....

... that Federal Express panel truck that was backed up in cheney's driveway a few years ago for a couple of days? Wasn't that around the time of Scooter's troubles, when it was still possible that cheney himself might be called to testify on the Valerie Plame leak?

[onehandle]

3. Ha ha ha! Yeah, They'll get right on that. It's over, folks. They got away with it.

Pardons will be given and Obama will not pursue Bush.

Period.

[elocs]

7. Bushco will hardly be the first in history to "get away with it".

One of the first lessons in life should be that life is not fair. Many guilty do not get what they deserve, but also many innocent get what they do not deserve. This is the real world and we cannot go back and rectify all the miscarriages of justice. You do what you can do and if there is nothing to be done you move on.

Much to the dismay of most here and accompanied by exploding heads, Bush will preemptively pardon any and all and will cover all the ground he needs to cover. Obama will have his plate full to overflowing with huge problems and he will not have the luxury of moral indignation over the crimes of Bushco. He will undo as many of them as he can, but I do not see him dragging this country through months of committee meetings and trials to hold everybody responsible for crimes and misdeeds. Reality is a harsh mistress.

[llmart]

15. Agreed.

The most we can hope for is that the bastards go down in history with NOTHING to show for their time in office. Future generations will read about this administration in negative terms only because there was absolutely no positives that came out of it. Maybe that's all we can hope for. Oh - and some nasty karma that comes their way.

[Independent_Liberal]

16. Reality?

So you're saying we should just accept things the way they are and not even bother to try to change anything?

We've been doing that for the past 40 years or so. Look where it's gotten us. After Ford pardoned Nixon, we moved on. After all the Iran-Contra pardons we moved on. After Clinton didn't investigate the crimes of the Reagan-Bush I years, we moved on. Well, look what the Republicans did to Clinton and look where it got us.

If you want to just "move on" that's your decision. However, there's people who aren't going to give up so easily and they're going to keep pursuing what some tell them is impossible. Like how often have you heard we'd never see a black president in this lifetime? Well, look what happened.

Don't tell me things can't be changed, because they can. I've learned that if you let people walk all over you and tell you what you can and can't do now, that's what they'll be doing to you for the rest of your life.

[elocs]

21. Remember the first stanza of The Serenity Prayer:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Bushco is going to walk as Bush pardons everybody under the sun who is even remotely involved in anything. That's life, that's the way it is going to be. There is absolutely nothing right or fair about it, but it is reality. Obama knows this, so don't look for him to spend any of his political capital on going after Bushco. Some small fish may go down, but that is it. These are things that cannot be changed no matter how much courge there is to change it. Everybody who is guilty of something is not going to be brought to justice. That is reality and what happens routinely in real life in spite of our moral indignation over it.

[Independent_Liberal]

22. Well, if that's how you feel about it, it's your decision.

However, don't tell me justice isn't possible, because it is. Read Vincent Bugliosi's book The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder. He outlines how state attorney generals and local prosecutors can take on the task. Bugliosi is a career prosecutor and he's never lost a case. He said he won't be satisfied until he sees Bush standing trial.

You can tell me it can't be done all you want. But you aren't going to make us stop fighting and accept things the way they are.

I swear, if the founding fathers had your attitude, there would be no United States of America today.

[Winterblues]

5. I can hear Bush* and Cheney laughing all the way up here in Alaska

The records that will be preserved will be able to fit in a single two drawer file cabinet.

[eagertolearn]

6. Fat chance! I can hear Cheney laughing at this request. they've always done what ever

they've wanted to. What makes you think they will follow the laws now?

[Zorra]

8. Too late. Barney ate them all. n/t

[Piewhacket]

9. This is the argument. The VP has limited official duties, that are

specified in the Constitution. With respect to those duties he must
maintain and preserve records, whatever they might be, and its probably not much.
After all, he doesn't actually have much official authority. Read the
Constitution (or Wikipedia) to learn what these duties are.

His private correspondence is probably (guessing) his to keep or not, if there is
any. Birthday cards to friends and such, assuming he had friends, which would seem
incredible on its face.

The problem, of course, is that he (with his lawyer) inserted himself intrusively
and extensively into the functioning of the executive, not as an advisors, but
as active participant as "assistant" to the President. He confabulated his role.

Of course, WE really knew all along he was no "assistant" at all, but was acting in fact
as the malevolent power behind the throne of an idiot "monarch". The true extent of his
involvement is, however, revealed in part by his ... wait for it, drumroll...
CORRESPONDENCE AND PAPERS. Oh yea.

He acted as a member of the executive, and is subject to the preservation of records.
The extent of his involvement probably means EVERYTHING must be preserved. There is
no serious argument he shouldn't have to keep his correspondence. He just figured he
could do all that shit in secret, without even a stinking badge. He thought foolishly.
(Or didn't care. Hows the pacemaker doing, Dick? )

His lawyer is probably (should be) in even worse trouble. Methinks.

[struggle4progress]

13. Cheney has to save any papers covered by the Presidential Records Act

[Piewhacket]

25. Thanks. Yet that begs the question...

of which "any papers" of Cheney's are covered by the Presidential Records Act.
The act pertains to "official records".
Personal records are excepted and the VP has limited official duties.
I have laid out the argument for a pervasive application of the
act to Cheney activities. This seems to be what Congress is claiming.

[struggle4progress]

27. Nonsense. The legislative intent of the Act is to preserve for the public

the historical record

The Vice President's office is not a twilight zone into which the Executive is allowed to shuffle paper in order to hide its actions and deliberations

Any material that would be covered in the President's office, or elsewhere in the Executive, is covered; anything done in part with public money, and anything potentially affecting governance, is covered, as properly belonging in the historical record

[Piewhacket]

30. Not arguing. Just sayin, a complicated legal problem and I'm not expert...

I generally share your sentiments concerning Cheney's papers
(and his legal assertions).

Still, this is a complicated area. The presidential records act is a Federal public Law,
subject to its own specified limitations, and further subject to constitutional limitations.
What these limitations are is not yet fully or clearly established.
That is why we have all this legal posturing (on both sides).

However, it may be instructive to some readers to examine the Administration's
assertions, examined through the filter of an executive order of November 1, 2001
(which revoked Executive Order 12667 of January 18, 1989), including the assertion
of a right of the past president to essentially "seal" certain records, particularly:


"The President's constitutionally based privileges subsume privileges for records that reflect:
military, diplomatic, or national security secrets (the state secrets privilege); communications
of the President or his advisors (the presidential communications privilege); legal advice or
legal work (the attorney-client or attorney work product privileges); and the deliberative
processes of the President or his advisors (the deliberative process privilege). "
(For more see http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011101-12.html )

Its a road map for following the machinations ahead, a "program" helpful to better
understand the doins. Gotta have a program.

Personally I'm obviously just a neutral spectator, and offer no opinion concerning the
merits of Shrub/Cheney's insane and self-delusional assertions of right. (sarcasm)

[Oldtimeralso]

10. What IS Joe's Stand On This Issue? n/t

[Winterblues]

26. As a Plumber he wants to stop the leaks

:shrug:

[no limit]

11. Yup. Another strongly worded letter will do the trick.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

14. White House to Democrats: "Dare to dream."

:shrug:

[Festivito]

17. We need to set up a fake shredding service with a large warehouse.

ULTRA-SHRED. ULTRA-PRIVATE. ULTRA-MAX

Then store all the stuff they send and take their sternly worded letters to a new SCOTUS.

[superconnected]

18. I don't believe they well. They've never handed over records before, why would they save these?

[bobd0]

19. Look, if they fail to comply with the records act indict them for that.

And take it from there. The goal should be to get sworn testimony from as many Bush administration members as possible and take it from there.

Something will undoubtedly come up. No one has ever conceived the perfect crime. ;)

[Dumak]

23. oops - the intern just shredded them by mistake

[Dr Fate]

24. Wow-"letters" and "concerns"... I'll bet Cheney is really scared.

n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. I'm sure they are going to get right on that.