Feds called in to review landowner's sign ("free public hanging" of Obama other Dems)

[sabra]

Source: bonner county daily bee

VAY — The U.S. Secret Service is being asked to review a sign a Bonner County landowner put up which suggests a "free public hanging" of President-elect Barack Obama and several other political figures.
The handmade cardboard sign also features a noose fashioned from a length of nylon rope.

"That's a political statement. They can call it whatever they want, a threat or whatever," said Ken Germana, who installed the sign on his property off Golden Gate Road in southwestern Bonner County.

Obama's name is the most prominent on the sign, although it also bears the names of former Democrat presidential nominee John Kerry, current U.S. House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi and civil rights activist and former presidential candidate Al Sharpton.

Sheriff Elaine Savage said she is referring the matter to the Secret

Service, which is tasked with protecting the lives of presidents, presidential contenders and those who are in a presidential line of succession.

Read more: http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/articles/2008/11/13/news/doc491bc5ab04e78208338058.txt

---

[aquart]

1. Isn't advocating the death of the president a no-no.

[rfranklin]

7. A fellow was jailed for his "burning bush" joke...this warrants...

a very long jail term.

[Piewhacket]

28. Fact check. Well yes, but to explain...

whether it was a threat depends also on whether it was intended as a threat, rather than a joke,
for even though it might be given with a smile or laugh, or even be amusing,
it still might have been evidence of a malicious intent to harm the president.

and even though a person is generally free to speak his mind, he is not necessarily free to
speak threats. Said another way, threats are not protected speech, they are acts which can evidence
malicious intent. When coupled with a present ability to carry a threat out... well...

yet even with all that, all criminal convictions must be proved 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.
so the evidence of a threat and present ability must be very convincing.
so lets see what we think when we get a little more info.

KELO-TV 12/06/2002 Humphreys Sentenced http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=25,21296

The 50-year old Oregon man was in Watertown the day before the President's visit when he referred to the burning bush, relating it to the President.
A truck driver overheard Humphreys' threat, and reported it, setting off the investigation. Detectives eventually found an email Humphreys had written in the trunk of his car.
It reads: "Now going to ask Bush for justice, and if I don't get it I am going to pray for a burning Bush. Get it? So if you hear that a man runs up and throws gasoline and a match to Bush you will know that God did speak through the burning Bush."
Friday, Humphreys was sentenced to 37 months in prison, but he'll likely get credit for the 20 months he's already served. Humphreys maintains his statement was a prophecy, not a threat. He tells me he plans to appeal.

well... all I can say is, assuming all that is so, the guy is not too bright or maybe not stable
(and unlikely to win an appeal). hope he at least enjoyed prison food.

TO DUers ALL:
let that be a lesson for over-enthusiastic DUers who get angry and ready to spout, to wit....
NEVER POST WHILE YOU ARE UNCONTROLLABLY ANGRY (about whack wing repukliens).
Its not that you shouldn't be MAD AS HELL, or that they don't deserve whatever they get,
its just that your friends in DU need your here, not in prison. Cool off a might first. K?

-Piewhacket

[RJ Connors]

63. Very good analysis!

You are correct, intent (mens rea) is an essential element to establishing criminal wrongdoing. (There are I believe a couple of exceptions to this rule but I think they are rather esoteric situations) And your story of the so-called prophet is just more evidence of what I think is going to get real messy over the next four years. After 9/11 I was telling right wingers that just because they peed their pants on 9-11 did not mean I had to give up my rights. I think I am going to have to carry through on that here also. Just because some people don't like certain political positions doesn't mean I have to give up my rights at that juncture either.

Unfortunately, the thing that is real troubling here is the incident in California in which an effigy of Sarah Palin was put up on a noose. And while the claim was that it was in good humor, which in that instance had the advantage of being able to come in under the guise of Halloween, I think a question still looms as given the political situation at the time could such an act incite others to violence.

I don't think the fact that the man who hoisted old Sarah up the fireplace was gay helped the situation either given the fact that Prop 8 was on the ballot. But then again, political context can change on a daily basis. Does our actions, behavior, and right of free expression have to also be adjusted with the changes of the political winds. I don't know, I am just thinking out loud and this is why I think the next 4 years is going to get real messy over these types of issues as this is the most contintues political climate I have seen in my 50 and a few years of living. And that includes while the civil rights marches and the Vietnam War was going on.

I would have also liked a clearer picture of what his sign said instead of the blurred one that was presented. But I suppose the bottom line here is it's time to buckle up. With the economy going in the toilet and the right wing fanatics going psychotic over the election, I think the road ahead is going to get pretty bumpy. And very dangerous.

Actus non facit reum nisi mens est rea.
The act does not make a criminal unless the intention is criminal.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Not if you're a white male and you're proposing it against a Democrat.

[TankLV]

62. IOKIYAAR

has been the operating law for some time now...

[Parche]

2. what a complete nifnod, fukwad

They can call it whatever they want, a threat or whatever," said Ken Germana

a threat against a President, or President elect, or Senator, or Speaker is a crime

jail that fukwad

[VaYallaDawg]

3. He has that dazed look, like his family tree is missing too many branches.

[123infinity]

4. His Uncle Dad helped make the sign.

:shrug:

[gypsylud]

15. thats dad-uncle-brother

[maxrandb]

55. Off topic, but he reminds me of this song my dad used to sing

"Many, many years ago, when I was 17,
I was married to a widow, who was pretty as could be.

She had a grown up daughter, who had hair of red,
My father fell in love with her and soon they both were wed.

This made my dad my son-in-law, and changed my very life.
My daughter is my mother, 'cause she is my father's wife.

To complicate the matter, even though it brought me joy,
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby-boy.

My son has thus become a brother-in-law to dad.
and so became my uncle, though it made me very sad.

For if he is my uncle, then he is of course half-brother
to the widow's grown up daughter, who of course is my step-mother."

[ozymandius]

12. I've seen this before.

The family tree is a straight line that doubles back on itself from time to time.

The lights went out in that skull a long time ago.

[hvn_nbr_2]

13. Too many duplicate genes. nt

[Seedersandleechers]

5. It doesn't look to me that his property gets much traffic.

Possibly a dirt or gravel road? Shame on the reporter who gave that person the attention he wanted.

[bdamomma]

6. our own homegrown terrorists are right in our country.

these people must be arrested.

[madmom]

8. When are they going to realize that THEY are the minority now?

[depakid]

9. In North Idaho, they're a dime a dozen

It's a very creepy place, where even if you don't see signs overtly posted, you can feel it seething under the surface.

[BanzaiBonnie]

11. This fellow has always been in a minority

But because the Republicans cheated to get Bush in the Whitehouse, the ignorant thought there were more of them.


Let's not let that happen again. Okay.

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. If you're into latin, a "minimussity"

[Zorra]

10. Another RW wacko Palinite. Hope the FBI is keeping tabs on them.

Because, like Timothy McVeigh, these RW extremists are crazy enough to kill innocent people.

[martymar64]

19. Palin was born in Bonner County

Sandpoint specifically.

[Ian David]

21. Up until a couple weeks ago, The FBI was probably RECRUITING them. n/t

[The Wizard]

16. Looks like a candidate for

electro shock therapy. 50,000 volts across the frontal lobes ought to do the trick.

[martymar64]

18. Ahh, Bonner County, Whacko Central!

I used to live in the next county over in WA State. Bonner is a hotbed of Neo-Nazi and other whackjobs. That's Randy Weaver , Aryan Nations country.
They need a good dose of bubonic plague to take care of those fuckheads.

[Ian David]

20. Well, before Obama or any Democrats go there to be hanged...

... they'll need to build an exit off the freeway to Bonner Country, first.

And they'd have to hurry before the town is flooded for a new hydroelectric dam.

[fascisthunter]

22. A Political Statement Huh?

:crazy:

[LesserFool]

23. Another Socialist-Bush-loving Hillbilly Redneck

What else did you expect?

[Skittles]

24. what a hateful bastard

he needs his ass kicked bigtime

[Demeter]

25. Good Thing the GOP Built All Those Jails

They'll have nice living accommodations for many years.

[and-justice-for-all]

26. Too Jail!!!!

fascist Racist ass hole!

[hollowdweller]

27. Republicans = SORE LOSERS

As a democrat I have had my share of election letdowns over time. I was 12 and really let down by McGovern getting trounced. Mondale and Dukkis were a real bringdown also, as was Carters loss. The closeness of the race and the circumstances of Bush VS Gore/Kerry was bound to stir some resentment in me and us all.

However I can honestly say hardly any democrats I know have been such whiners and ungracious losers as the Republicans. Clinton whipped their asses and rather than try to show why they were better they spent the next 8 years trying to smear him trash him rather than do anything positive. Now Obama won fair and square and I have never seen the Republicans so stirreed up. Can you imagine if the Gore and Kerry elections had gone the other way? They probably would have been advocating violence in the steets. They can dish it out but they can't take it.

[DogPoundPup]

29. Idaho sign advertises Obama 'public hanging'

Source: Yahoo

VAY, Idaho – The Secret Service is investigating a sign erected by a northern Idaho landowner that advertises a "free public hanging" of President-elect Barack Obama and other political figures.

Bonner County Sheriff Elaine Savage said Thursday that she and a Secret Service agent from Spokane, Wash., planned to take a look at the sign put up by Ken Germana.

"That's a political statement," Germana told the Bonner County Daily Bee. "They can call it whatever they want, a threat or whatever."

The handmade cardboard sign posted to a tree has the words "FREE PUBLIC HANGING" written in large letters above an equally large "OBAMA." A noose hangs down the middle of the sign.

In smaller letters are the names of Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and civil rights activist and former presidential candidate Al Sharpton.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/ap_on_re_us/obama_sign

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

30. Throw the mf in jail.

I have had ENOUGH of these idiots! ENOUGH!

[muntrv]

31. Let's put up a hanging effigy of Ken Germana and see if that's just a political statement.

[Triana]

32. It wasn't a political statement when it was done in the 60s - it was RACISM..

..and it still is.

The "man" is advocating MURDER of elected gov't officials. It should NOT be minimized to a "political" statement.

[Guaranteed]

54. Racism is protected speech.

Incitement of violence is not.

[TomInTib]

33. If the subject was LittleMan, the dude would be in Gitmo, right fucking now.

Throw his ass in jail, I say.

[RoyGBiv]

34. I'm a free speech purist ...

And these assholes have broken me.

Broken.

Fuck 'em. If they want to play with the bull, give 'em the horns.

[Skip Intro]

37. I am too. This is a tough one for me.

I keep wondering if this had been a sick political cartoon, would it warrant the moran's arrest - I'm not sure.

What if it were a political cartoon and the names were changed to bush, cheney, rumsfeld and rice?

Is he inciting violence?

Is he making a death threat?

I don't know. It looks like it.

He's a fucking hateful bastard.

But I am a free speech purist too.

This one - I just don't know.

I definitely think the Secret Service should become involved.

And you know, I almost feel sorry for people who feel that the ultimate response to that which they fear or do not understand is to eliminate those things. It must be a sad, torturous life for them, all but devoid of any real happiness.

Me and my fucking bleeding heart.

[RoyGBiv]

38. In all seriousness ...

I think the answer here lies in what the Secret Service said. They're "looking into it."

Displays such as these do not warrant swooping in with black masks, guns blazing, to take everyone anywhere near the display prisoner.

But they warrant investigation.

Additionally, the racial overtones can't be ignored. Purist that I am, I would complain mightily about a poster calling for a lynching party. And, based simply on the story, that's what this sounds like.

But, yeah ... this kind of BS rips at my mental circuits. I've been down the road of defending a Nazi's right to give a speech, and I've donated money to the ACLU at the same time they're defending the right of the KKK to peaceably assemble.

There are limits. Is this yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire?

I'm glad I'm not a Secret Service agent, but gopod bless them.

[Zynx]

44. Free speech only means political speech I don't have a right to threaten people nor should I.

[RoyGBiv]

53. Granted ...

But since the target of these assaults is a political figure, could this not be construed as political speech?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, FWIW, but even so I don't think this is as easy question as some believe.

Burning political leaders in effigy, displaying them as though they are being hanged, openly wishing a heart attach on them ... these are all forms of political speech, or they can be, depending on the context and extent of it.

[Xithras]

57. Depends on whether or not there's really a threat there.

Legally, there is a world of difference between:

"I wish you were dead"

Or:

"I wish someone would kill you"

And:

"I want to kill you myself"

Stating that you want someone dead, lynched, or expressing glee at the thought of a murder is actually legal and protected speech. It only crosses the line when you threaten to commit the crime yourself, or directly encourage a specific person to commit the crime.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

35. To clarify:

Sign reading "I believe this public official will lead America down the wrong path." = political statement.

Sign advertising "free public hanging" of public official = death threat.

Sign advertising "free public hanging" of minority public official = possible hate crime and death threat.

Are we clear?

[uppityperson]

40. k&r for clarification. We are clear and in agreement.

[OwnedByFerrets]

36. The ONLY way to stop this shit is to start throwing the book at them.

[DemRob]

39. Ken Germana - doesn't deserve any attention - irrelevant

[uppityperson]

41. Hate speech is irrelevant? That is what I see you posting over and over on DU.

All those doing hate speech are "irrelevant"?

[BrklynLiberal]

42. Sounds like a death threat aimed at the P/E to me. Cuff him, Danno

[EC]

43. Why aren't all these people being thrown in jail?

These are threats, not political statements...is this another town Palin campaigned through?

[Danchi]

45. ENOUGH

It's time for the Secret Service to stop looking into these things and start putting people in jail. Never underestimate crazy people.

[Lucky Luciano]

46. Probably nothing happens unless further investigation

shows the nutjob could potentially be serious. If it turns out he is just some stupid schmuck that had no potential to carry otu a serious threat, he will get off with a warning...but 100% of threats, no matter how minor or unlikely to materialize are investigated.

[bertman]

47. Good timing, Germana. We need someone to be an example of how the SS don't take no

shit when it comes to threatening the life of the President-elect. You fixin to git fucked, boy!

[Patchuli]

48. Hate speech and racism is never acceptable

under any circumstances, freedom of speech notwithstanding. Not OK.

[Taverner]

49. Worth investigating, shouldn't be prosecuted

[MrsBrady]

50. don't these people understand that threatening the president will send you to jail?

I mean do they think that people don't care about their racist crap.
and it's the PRESIDENT.

"Germana said that he poses no threat to Obama, but that he wouldn't lose sleep if the Democratic president-elect came in harm's way."
tell me how that is NOT threatening?

dumb f***s

[LeFleur1]

51. I Thought A Few Years AgoThey....

...cleaned all those white supremists out of that area of the country. Guess not.

[Sophree]

52. No- Idaho is still a mecca for white supremacists

Idaho, as beautiful a state as it is, scares the heck out of me. Serious white supremacy, Neo-Nazis- frickin scary stuff.

[BlueIdaho]

59. Actually...

There are no more neo-nazi white supremacists in North Idaho than anywhere else in the country. In fact, due to its tiny population - it's possible that there are fewer bigots here than any of the surrounding states. Recently, Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center acted on behalf of a local woman who was chased down on the road by members of the Aryan Nations. Thanks to a successful law suit they lost everything - including the right to use the name Aryan Nations. The property they lost was eventually sold to a local millionaire who has donated it to the local Human Rights organization to be used as a Peace Park. I know we have a bad rap but the sad truth is there are plenty of bigots, racists, and neo-nazis in every town, city, and state in America.

edit - typo

[Sophree]

60. Well that's good to hear

About the successful lawsuit. I wasn't trying to rag on Idaho- it's true that racism and bigotry are everywhere.

And Northern Idaho and NW Montana is the most beautiful part of this country, at least that I have seen.

[BlueIdaho]

61. Thanks

But there's no doubt we do have a few nut cases sitting at the end of the odd gravel road...

[High Plains]

56. The only way this is a death threat is if Obama goes to visit this dude.

This is a very offensive political statement by an idiot in the remote woods, not a threat to assassinate Obama.

It's a little creepy to see all these DUers howling for this guy to be jailed. Sore winners?

[treestar]

58. No matter how much we hated Boosh or Cheney

We never advocate such things.

The Repukes should wonder at themselves and why they draw these kinds of people.

[No Elephants]

64. Why they draw them? They create them. the wife of a freaking secessionist

practically equates Obama with terrorism. Talk radio spews hate and violence against Democrats 24/7. Democrats have for years been demonized as people who hate God, don't give a rap about their families, their country or the troops, etc. It's a freaking miracles there aren't more Neanderthals like this.

[liberal1973]

65. POS republican

This guy should be removed from America.