Wild horse advocates decry BLM euthanasia proposal

[DogPoundPup]

Source: The Sacremento Bee

RENO, Nev. -- A stampede of opposition is growing over a proposal being considered by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management for the first time to kill or allow unrestricted sale of wild horses captured from western public lands because of budget constraints.

Tens of thousands of horse advocates have weighed in with public comments to the agency, voicing outrage at the idea of slaughtering what many revere as romantic symbols of the American West.

"Most Americans view these horses as the greatest symbols of our American freedom," said Ross Potter of Phoenix.

"If we kill them now without exhausting all other possibilities, we are telling the world that we have no respect for our own heritage," he said in a recent letter to the BLM. "I don't think that is an image we can afford to project."

The BLM's nine-member National Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board is scheduled to consider the proposal at a meeting Monday in Reno. Many critics say inept management by the BLM created the problem that has led to nearly as many horses being kept in long-term corrals as remain on the range.

Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/114/story/1400469.html

[flvegan]

1. I wonder...

if they can corral them to euthanize them, couldn't they also corral them to spay/neuter/release them?

[Doremus]

4. I've often wondered that myself, not only about the horses but about

the local deer population that they spend $$$ and time every year killing.

In the absence of any logical explanation, I can only assume that there's more money to be made killing than by sterilizing. :shrug:

[WriteDown]

6. Not money, its about #'s

they have to kill 1000's if not 10's of thousands of deer in various areas each year to control the population. Logistically, it would be impossible to capture and sterilize enough each year. Especially since they'd need antibiotics afterward to prevent infections.

[Runcible Spoon]

9. when we gelded the horses, they got a quick shot of systemic antibiotics

no 14 day courses or anything like that for a human. Also, adolescent stallions are forced out of the herds and wander in bands until they are strong enough to make a challenge for a group of their own mares. Tracking down these "bachelor herds" would be more time consuming, yes, but NOT logistically impossible.

[WriteDown]

14. I was talking about deer...

I have don't think it would be impossible with horses, just extremely difficult.

[Runcible Spoon]

18. and the thread is about horses.

I was merely pointing out how it could be done.

[WriteDown]

30. Doremus mentioned deer. nt.

[Runcible Spoon]

34. so what? the implication was that if it was hard with deer, it would be hard with horses.

I responded with my input regarding horses. Is this really hard for you to follow? What a stupid argument anyway. If you have nothing of substance to add to this thread, have a nice day.

[WriteDown]

37. You sound....

like you need to lighten up a bit. Doremus asked why it was so difficult with deer and horses to sterilize and I explained the deer component.

[Runcible Spoon]

47. yeah the creatures I love are being threatened, people on DU compare them to parasites

and side with big ranchers instead of the conservation movement. Your response is for me to lighten up. Jesus.

[WriteDown]

49. I was raised with horses....

I love them, but realize that they are not a native species to the US. Their are well thought out arguments against wild horses and their management. I am not siding with anyone at this point, but I am willing to listen to the arguments.

[happyslug]

70. But you control population by controlling the number of mares not stallions

Remember a Stallion can impregnate many mares, but a mare can only bare one filly or colt. Thus when it comes to population control it is the control of the number of Mares that are important NOT the number of Stallions.

The same thing with deer, buck season has little if any affect on deer population, it is the subsequent doe season that sets the number of deer for the area for the following year (no fawns, no deer).

[Doremus]

17. I don't think the only option is an operation. There are medications you can put in food.

There may be even be an under-the-skin option for all I know.

If they killed thousands of deer in our area there wouldn't be any left. They actually kill a few hundred annually, usually with marksmen but they have also used the barbaric method of trapping and shooting a spike into their head.

I guess there's not enough money in lacing deer food with contraceptives, or instead of a spike to the head a contraceptive under the skin.

[Runcible Spoon]

7. Bingo. although we call it "gelding" in the horsie world ;)

spaying the mares would be really difficult since it is an operation on a large animal. However, there are temporary hormone treatments. That may be expensive, and probably their excuse but at the very LEAST snipping some balls is cheap and quick.

I think it's tragic that animals on PUBLIC LAND are being ousted so the cattle have more grazing land. Even if people don't give a shit about the horses, call them prairie rats or whatever, one would think that the private use of public land for profit would piss them off :shrug:

At the end of the day, I would rather see them put down than on European or Japanese plates. At least they would be spared that journey. What a horrible choice, though and I hope beyond hopes that the next administration is more sensitive towards the horses.

Edit: fixed for correct terminology

[demodonkey]

11. Or "gelding"... :-) nt

[Runcible Spoon]

12. DOH you know that's what I meant :P

brain fart. I stand by the truthiness of the rest of my post :P

[smiley]

15. They have been, but...

the sterilization that they have been using only takes affect for 2 years and then they are able to breed again.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

2. I raised horses for many years.

While living in Reno during the late nineties, the wild horses were free to graze and it was not unusual to walk out your door in the morning
and find a herd grazing on the neighborhood's lawns. Unfortunately private horse owners have become overwhelmed with the costs of
feeding, vetting and necessary expenses of horse ownership. Across the country, people are leaving their horses on the side of the road
or relinquishing them to already overwhelmed shelters.

In the last few years the laws were changed making it illegal to auction and slaughter horses so the meat could be sent overseas for human
consumption. Unfortunately, as usual, no one gave thought to the problems overpopulation would bring.

[WriteDown]

5. Interesting real-life perspective...

I always thought that the treatment of wild horses is especially interesting considering they are an invasive species.

[Runcible Spoon]

10. sigh. the invasive species meme, What do you mean by their "treatment"?

I suppose you have no problem with the fact that the horses are competing with fucking privately owned cattle herds for grazing land on PUBLIC LANDS. And almost every species is "invasive" if you go back far enough. Are you 100% native american? No? Then you, my friend, are just as invasive as the horses.

[WriteDown]

13. I'm 50%

Does that not count? And horses are a pretty recent invasive species. Kind of like the white man.

[Runcible Spoon]

19. invasive to what? cattle grazing lands which are really public lands?

and no, wild horses are nowhere NEAR the invasiveness of the white man, or any other human in industrial capitalism for that matter.

[XemaSab]

25. Cattle grazing on BLM lands is controlled and regulated

The cattle are given water, and when they become too destructive to the range they are taken off.

Not so wild horses.

[Runcible Spoon]

27. that doesn't really address my main concern which is...

why the FUCK are private ranchers allowed to use public land for profit? :shrug: I fail to see how this is some incrimination against the horses, it just further supports my point that the horses are having to compete for grazing with PRIVATE FOR PROFIT BEEF RANCHERS.

[XemaSab]

29. Do you know what an AUM is?

:shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

31. animal unit month in this context?

What's your point? Get rid of the horses because they eat more than the cattle? Way to avoid my main point again, BTW.

[WriteDown]

39. It helps to read and learn...

pretty balanced...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang_(horse)

[Runcible Spoon]

46. umm yeah nice irrelevant link to wiki

keep up with the conversation or you just embarass yourself.

[WriteDown]

50. Irrelevant?

You can check the footnotes if you'd like. Do you have any personal experience with horses or are you one of those people who just think they are pretty?

[Runcible Spoon]

57. you have contributed nothing to this thread.

I don't need to list my credentials. Have a good one, this is just going nowhere.

[WriteDown]

62. Just as I thought...

Someone who thinks their pretty from afar. You may want to actually familiarize with the animals you act so passionate about. Most horses are as dumb as a chicken, but they are beautiful.

[Duppers]

66. "Most horses are as dumb as a chicken" Uh?

Are you sure about that?

Anecdotal: I grew up on a farm with a spoiled little shetland pony who was smarter than my pet chicken. Daisy knew how to open her gate door and would head to the back door of the big farm house to beg for sugar treats. Pecky, the chicken, besides being docile enough to allow me to carry her around, could distinguish me from my brother and sister, yet I always thought Daisy was the smarter.

[WriteDown]

67. That's why I said "most."

:). You were one of those spoiled kids who got a pony? j/k

[LanternWaste]

77. Give him some more rope...

Give him some more rope, in an attempt to lasso intelligence many posters wind up hanging themselves...

The poster seems to be unaware of herd/prey-animal intelligence vs. predator intelligence (unless of course they are merely attempting to come off as clever)

This being written by a guy who had the opportunity to work on three horse ranches during my summer vacations in TX...

[Boudica the Lyoness]

45. The cattlemen see the wild horses as competition

for grazing. Like I said in another post I own wild horses and cattle. I graze my cattle on my own ranch and it pisses me off that these guys are using public lands for very little money. Those horses belong to the American people, not so the cattle.

[Kali]

52. uh, without going into the whole convoluted history of "public" lands the fact is

even if you removed the cattle and leave unmanaged horses out there you are still going to have a serious overpopulation and overgrazing problem. Horses are much harder on plants and soils than cattle and with no real predators to control them (aside from the occasional lion) they can do a lot of damage real fast. Not saying they couldn't be managed and having a diversity of large grazing animals that were well controled in terms of time on individual areas.

Seriously, you need to read up on the history of land distribution in the west. And a bit of ecology as well.

[Runcible Spoon]

58. I never argued that we don't need population control mechanisms.

I'm quite well aware of the issue, I just don't think rounding them up and shooting them is the answer. If you had bothered to read the rest of the thread, I give a lot of ideas, but thanks for just dismissing my grasp of the issue because I fucking don't like public land being used for cattle grazing, waste dumping, snowmobiling or anything else.

[harpboy_ak]

63. Your method doesn't work

They are a disaster for the landscape, and need to be totally eradicated.

Your idea of sterilizing has been tried numerous times. It's expensive, and there are waaay too many of these INVASIVE INTRODUCED horses. They are NOT a native species, and they are very destructive to the ecology, and unlike ranch leases, totally unregulated. This population needs to be eradicated, and then anyone letting domestic horses run wild should be subject to heavy fines and other legal sanctions.

IMHO the correct and humane thing to do is to kill them humanely (and yes, a bullet through the head IS one humane way) and bury them.

[Kali]

68. so PUBLIC land can't be used at all?

I dismissed your grasp of the issue because you clearly have very little understanding of major parts of it.

[LanternWaste]

76. As are we...

"considering they are an invasive species."

As are we... for all the relevance either one has to do with the thread.

[Taverner]

16. Why don't they just sell them as riding horses?

[Runcible Spoon]

20. training a horse to be safe for an amateur rider takes months,,,

the BLM had programs like that but they had their funding gutted by the Bush administration. It's not horse overpopulation, it's lack of funding to find homes for the routine herd reduction coupled with the increased use of the public grazing lands for the cattle industry.

If we stopped overbreeding domestic horses, especiall racehorses (another can of worms) there would be plenty of resources to maintain the wild horses forever. They make great riding horses, they are tough, have high immunity to genetic disease, are cheap to feed and have hooves like flint which cuts down on the expense of shoes..

[Taverner]

21. "A Pony for every Kid Act"

Use that to refund that BLM program...

I can just see the discussion

R: But this will cost too much money

D: Are you saying you are denying a right for a kid to have a pony? Are you anti-pony?

[Runcible Spoon]

23. anti pony lol!

but to be fair, as putrid as repukes are, a lot of them have been on board for saving the mustangs. Killing horses is universally disgusting to Americans.

[Autumn]

22. My mustang is a hell of a

lot smarter than our arabians.

[Runcible Spoon]

24. they are fantastic. I can't wait until I have land again so I can adopt again.

I do have a soft spot for Arabians too!

[Boudica the Lyoness]

41. Right on Autumn!

I love my two mustang colts. I adopted the first in April and the second in August. The BLM's records show they were rounded up together. My other horse is a Morgan I've had for over 20 years.
My mustangs are awesome. I've owned horses since 1970, but these mustangs have opened up a whole new world for me. I love them for it.

I adopted the horse in August from the BLM's online adoption. I got him for $125. He's beautiful. Almost looks black but he's a deep plum colored bay. Gorgeous long mane and tail. Beautiful to look at and so intelligent and sweet.

I adopted the first horse in April at an adoption event I attended. He was also $125. He's a big bay, long mane and tail. He's a bit of a comedian. Eats anything you give him and loves beer.

They live with us and I plan to have them professionally trained when they are old enough.

The thought of these horse being slaughtered sickens me.

[Runcible Spoon]

48. my horse also loved beer :)

thanks for opening your home to these beautiful creatures

[EFerrari]

44. My mom adopted two about 20 years ago.

They did take some time to tame but they were worth every second and penney. Beautiful, hardy and very easy to care for. :)

[bklyncowgirl]

65. There are some small programs--I read about one in a prison that sounded very good.

Most horse owners don't have the knowledge or the ability to train a horse from scratch. There are some programs, some based out of prisons, that have filled this gap but I doubt though that there's enough of these programs, even if well funded, to make up the difference.

Many equestrians who have the money to indulge in horse ownership want to compete in highly specialized competitions and prefer horses specially bred for those events. For dressage and show jumping the rage is for expensive European warmbloods. At one time the hunter-jumper market was dominated by the Thoroughbred, usually ex-racehorses, bought cheaply and retrained. In the last two decades the competitions have been changed to favor accuracy and power over speed. It's rare to see a Thoroughbred in the top levels of show jumping these days. There are still some in eventing but even that's been dumbed down to favor the Europeans. If you've got the bucks and can buy a made horse that is bred for the work you want it to do, why spend the time and energy to train your own--especially if what you really want to do is collect those trophies and ribbons--not stand in a round pen as your green eventing project rockets around you at warp speed.

Western riders are devoted to the American Quarter Horse and color breeds outcrossed with it. They have the explosive speed to do barrel racing and calf roping. Most mustangs do not. There are exceptions but prejudice lies deep in the horse world as it does everywhere else. Hell the Quarter Horse is so specialized within itself that it's almost three different breeds--Racehorse, Halter Horse and performance horse--although the performance horse type is further specialized into disciplines. Good examples of the various types fetch megabucks. Bad examples usually end up at the killers.

Mustangs can do well in endurance competitions but are outnumbered by the Arabians who have been bred for centuries for long distance travel.

That leaves pleasure and trail riding, the pastime of low rent equestrians like myself. (Oh, I'll take my little Thoroughbred to a show or two but we have neither the money or the inclination to pursue the ambition of chasing points.) The thing is that even here the mustang is competing with other equine rejects, ex racehorses, show ring dropouts and of course the specially bred for comfort gaited breeds that are gaining ground as the population ages. There's something to be said about a horse which cruises along in a smooth surefooted style when you're on the dark side of 50.


I

[northernlights]

38. bullshit and bullshit

1. people against horse slaughter did and do give thought to the *temporary* problem of horse overpopulation. the long term solution, when there are no buyers for indiscriminately bred horses and no slaughterhouses to dump the unwanted animals on, will be reduction of indiscriminate breeding. Fuck, I know of quarter horse breeders who's *BUSINESS PLAN* was slaughter for the badly bred, unrideable cripples they couldn't sell. And slaugher for the broodmares who couldn't produce any more. They shouldn't have been breeding to begin with. And I have a SERIOUS ISSUE with various breed organizations that promote conformation that blatantly emphasizes MEAT over SOUNDNESS, and even promote the breeding of horses that they know carry genetic diseases in order to protect the "BIG BREEDERS" that support them. The whole horse industry is CORRUPT beyond belief. Rife with HECKAVA JOB BROWNIES.

2. The BLM issues are totally separate from the indiscrimate overbreeding and overpopulation of privately owned horses that are now being abandoned. You're comparing apples with oranges. People now abandoning their Quarterhorses and Appies, and Tennessee Walkers and Saddlebreds and Thoroughbreds and Ayrabs and Morgans and European Warmbloods and American Warmbloods and whathave you were never in the market for, and have no influence over, the BLM horses to begin with.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

40. Horses are now shipped to Canada and Mexico

to be slaughtered. The 'kill' buyers are still going to the auctions. American horses are still ending up on the French fuckers dinner table.

I was in such a good mood till I read the above article because I'd just spent an hour with the two mustangs I adopted this year and I was feeling so calm and peaceful.

People should stop breeding their 'not so good horses' thinking their going to make some money. There are plenty are good cheap horses out there, including mustangs.

[ben_meyers]

3. Can't the wild horses declare themselves a bank holding co.

and apply for a bailout? Everybody else is.

[mcg]

8. They are using the word euthanasia as a euphamism for killing,

this would not be euthanasia. This is either more Orwellian doublespeak or an implied threat, the threat being "Let us do this or we will let the horses starve to death.". I wonder, are some horses already going hungry or getting sick from the conditions of confinement?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euthanasia

the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy

[pattmarty]

26. I don't like the potential "taste" of this. With the economy going...........

......down, these wild horses may well end up in our "hamburgers". Also, how long will it take for the wild horses to go the way of the buffalo?

[lligrd]

28. Overwhelmed By Wild Horses??

I live in CA. have traveled it extensively and have never even seen a wild horse (much to my disappointment). Surely, there is a better solution than this.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

42. When the BLM delivered my mustang

I asked the BLM wrangler dude about the area where both my wild boys came from in Southern Oregon, Beaty's Butte. He was very familiar with it. He described it to me as being very vast with lots of forage.
It's about cattle. Republican's do the bidding of the cattlemen and the cattlemen think of Mustangs as vermin.
I own cattle and graze them on my own ranch NOT public lands for almost nothing.

[Kali]

54. Federal lands in the west.

Guess you haven't actually checked out the type of land this typically consists of, have you? Or learned about the history of its very existence. Or looked at a land ownership map of a typical ranch in the west.

[Hawkowl]

55. BINGO!

Fucking Rethuglican bullshit. AGAIN. It is all about the almighty dollar. Kill, rape the environment, fuck your mother for a dollar.

As late as the 1920's there were 35 MILLION WILD HORSES. There are vast stretches of open public land in Nevada, California, Oregon etc. Larger than the entire east coast, and very relatively few horses.

I would like to see the science to back up the claim for overpopulation. I would also like much less grazing, logging, mining etc on public land. Too many people here simply and immediately buy into the "over population" argument without questioning who's pushing it.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

32. Sterilization would require the gelding of stallions.

Gelding decreases androgens in stallions and would impact herd behavior.

I'm not sure wild herds would function or survive for long if an aggressive program
involving sterilization were implemented.

[Runcible Spoon]

35. not true. geldings have been running off to join feral/wild herds forever.

if done correctly, you wouldn't geld the herd's dominant stallion, you would geld the adolescent bachelor bands that roam around until they can make a bid for their own herd.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

36. Good point. Lot's of things to consider.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

43. There are lot's of options.

The horses with bad conformation should be gelded and likewise for the mares.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our fourth quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[DogPoundPup]

53. With only $7.00 in my checking acct., I wish I could, but can't this time.

[Runcible Spoon]

60. you got a star! thank you to my anonymous donor too!

:hug:

[DogPoundPup]

69. Oh geez, ~THANK YOU!~ I will be sure to pass your kindness forward to someone else in need

as soon as I can. :yourock:

Thank you again! :hug:

[semillama]

51. This again?

I guess it's time to post the link to the Ted Williams article then...

http://audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0609.html

"I love horses. I grew up with them, trained them, competed in horse shows, rode to hounds in Old Chatham, New York. All my early girlfriends who hung around our barn whether I was there or not could accurately draw horses, mostly “wild” ones. Mobilized by “Wild Horse Annie”—a Nevada ranch wife named Velma Johnston—they and other grade-schoolers across America wrote impassioned letters to senators and congressmen, demanding that “wild horses” be preserved other than in dog food cans. The upshot was the Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act of 1971, which placed all unrestrained, unclaimed equids (horses and burros) under government care and made it a felony to kill, capture, sell, or even annoy one.

Under this law the departments of Agriculture and Interior must manage free-roaming equids in such fashion as “to achieve and maintain a thriving natural ecological balance on the public lands.” That mission is impossible for two reasons. First, the feds don’t begin to have the capacity for nonlethal feral-equid management. Second, horses or burros cannot exist anywhere in North America in “natural ecological balance.” They are aliens. The argument that equids are “native” to this continent because their progenitors were present during the Pleistocene —a mantra from the wild-horse lobby—makes as much sense as claiming that elephants are native because woolly mammoths were here during the same period.

Roughly 10,000 years after the extinction of North American horses, Spanish explorers introduced a larger domesticated species. But the continent’s plant communities, having coevolved with ungulates that had cloven hooves and lacked upper teeth, were ill-equipped to handle solid hooves and meshing incisors. Result: ecological havoc."

[bertman]

56. semillama, there you go polluting the emotional discourse with facts. How dare you? (-;

My wife is a wild mustang fanatic. She goes to the auctions here in N.C. every year. One day she may get up the courage to buy one. She loves horses, but is scared of them. It's such a shame, too, because she is a natural with animals.

This year she went to the annual auction and came home in tears. This is one tough woman who cries a whole helluva lot less than I do and I'm one tough SOB, but that's another story. She was inconsolable. She had taken her mom and dad to see her beloved wild mustangs. When she got there she was astonished that there were only two vehicles with horse trailers in the parking lot and only ten or twelve non-auction personnel in the livestock yard. She couldn't believe how many horses were still there because this was the second day of the auction and it looked as if none of the horses had been sold.

She started talking with one of the women who was running the auction and found out that this had been the case at all of their auctions this year. No buyers. The economy had begun its free fall and no one was buying wild horses. The folks from the BLM who were running the auctions were totally stressed and distressed but they still did their jobs. They were depressed as hell because they knew their beloved wild horses were going to go to the slaughterhouses when their auction circuit was done.

They tried to talk my wife into buying a wild horse adoption T-shirt. They told her they would give her a mustand FREE with the T-shirt. No shit. They were desperate and trying to get these horses to homes where people would take care of them. You can imagine how bummed out my wife was from this experience. I was very sad for her. And for the mustangs.

Now, I ask you the question of why should all of these wild horses be allowed to run free? I am not saying that SOME of them shouldn't be allowed to run free, but it seems to be highly detrimental and ecologically short-sighted to allow them to run free in the numbers they have now. These are magnificent creatures, I admit. But they are only symbols of a bygone era. Of course, that has a huge emotional appeal to horse lovers, but it collides with the reality of the situation. Even if they were used for food, as they are in most of the rest of the world, it seems that their effect on the environment would preclude them from being allowed to exist in significant numbers.

It's too bad that Mr. Ed isn't around to be a spokesgelding for the wild horses. They could sure use some good p.r. about now.

[Runcible Spoon]

59. NOBODY on this thread is suggesting they don't need management.

But go ahead and dismiss everything as "emotional", if that helps you sleep at night. Fact of the matter is, there are fairly simple solutions, but they're not profitable. Even without horses on the land, cattle overgrazing is a serious issue. We all eat too many fucking hamburgers.

[bertman]

61. I sleep like a baby. Slept right through hurricane Fran. Personally, I prefer salmonburgers.

[Eryemil]

64. I haven't had horse meat in years

[zelta gaisma]

71. what happened to the "adopt-a-horse" program?

[Kali]

72. doesn't even put a dent in the numbers they have in pens,

much less address the stocking rate on the ground (in the "wild") besides half the morons that own horsies now, can't afford to take care of them and they are dumping THEM out in the "wild" too.

[zelta gaisma]

73. crap well that sucks ....

hunting season like they do for deer? better than letting them starve not by much though

[Kali]

74. well, there used to be a slaughter market for them (pet food mostly)

but that is offensive to people and caused the whole stupid mess we are in now, so I doubt if that would ever fly. Hunting is kind of going the way of fur trapping, in terms of a non-PC activity so hunting the pretty horsies isn't going to go over well I am sure.

Seems like one thing that might work would be to pay ranchers that have to deal with them anyway some kind of reasonable subsidy to maintain some number that is ecologically sound. Remembering that it takes different kinds of facilities for horses than cattle and retrofitting equipment and facilities would have to be part of the deal. I suspect if a leaseholder (or even a private land only ranch) was compensated in some amount equivalent to what they made on cattle that they would be more than happy to manage some horses - in fact a lot already do, for nothing. And I know some already are paid to keep herds on private land so it is already happening. At what scale I don't have that info.

[zelta gaisma]

75. sell them to the french...

they eat horse in france i remember hearing