California to investigate Mormon aid to Prop 8

[Newsjock]

Source: Associated Press

California officials will investigate whether the Mormon church accurately described its role in a campaign to ban gay marriage in the state.

The California Fair Political Practices Commission said Monday that a complaint by a gay rights group merits further inquiry.

Executive director Roman Porter says the decision does not mean any wrongdoing has been determined.

Fred Karger, founder of Californians Against Hate, accuses the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of failing to report the value of work it did to support Proposition 8.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/24/state/n180121S50.DTL&tsp=1

[bluestateguy]

1. Out of state groups cannot be allowed to just invade a state and manipulate THEIR political process

The Mormons should keep their stupid crap in Utah and out of California.

[merwin]

4. Actually, California was a big settlement area for the LDS church at one point.

Case in point, San Bernadino... one of my relatives was one of the first settlers there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino,_California

And a whole article on LDS settlements in CA.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/gathering/California_EOM.htm

I can understand why you're not a fan of the LDS church, but as someone who has strong Mormon genealogy on one side of my family, it irks me when people spout shit off without attempting to understand first.

No offense to you, I just had to deal with this kind of thing all the time growing up, especially (ironically) in the Christian middle/high school I attended that was very anti-Mormon.

[Hekate]

6. Mormons are only 2% of the population of California, yet something like 40% of the money for Prop 8

... came from the Mormon Church. Unless the locals are a whole lot richer than they look, this is out of state influence at its rankest. I am really glad this is being looked into.

I have Mormon relations too. And neighbors. Fine people, I just don't share their religion, and I prefer my government secular.

Hekate

[boilerbabe]

13. And that's the way it should remain

I am all for tolerance, since this is the main issue we are discussing, but when it comes to religion and government--don't get me started. Doesn't anyone see just how much we could lose if we allow this to happen? I have never married myself, but I do see a lot of human rights just going down the drain if we let those whose agendas are a bit different call the shots. And that is probably the sanme argument that the "other side" would give. But they have nothing to lose. Those of us that really care do have everything to lose. I want to see anyone that wants to marry to be able to do so without stigma. So, I am going to fight, and it is because it is not just about marriage. It is about freedom.

[yardwork]

60. Thank you. You understand this perfectly. It's about minority rights.

The U.S. didn't intend the rights of minorities to be decided by simple majority vote. That's why we have the Bill of Rights and other amendments guaranteeing equal rights. We're still a long way from realizing that goal, but Proposition 8 was a huge step backward.

[Zhade]

61. You rule. That is all.

: )

[merwin]

81. Then use that argument. Mormon bashing should have nothing to do with it.

We should use reason and thoughtful responses instead of mindless attacks. When you attack someone, they just shut down and you have NO chance of altering their point of view.

[Zhade]

104. There is no bashing in the post you replied to - NONE.

NT!

[hedgehog]

32. Did the money used in the campaign come directly from the Church of the LDS

or was the money donated by people who happened to be Mormons? I've heard it both ways.

[nichomachus]

37. Mormons were told by the church to donate

I'm sure when it comes time for Temple Recommends they will take a close look at who followed orders and who didn't.

It's called extortion.

Mormons in Utah "just happened" to be so concerned with California politics, that they donated $2.5 million. They gave lesser amounts in other states.

However, the basis of this suit is that the Church gave in-kind support and hid it from election officials.

[yardwork]

42. There are more details in this article from a Utah paper:

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_11064769

"...The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints failed to report money invested to organize phone banks, send out direct mailers, provide transportation to California, mobilize a speakers bureau, send out satellite simulcasts and develop Web sites as well as numerous commercials and video broadcasts."

[Raster]

54. As I stated several weeks ago in another post, the church is more involved in

the H8 referendum than they would like anyone to know. It is FACT that H8 would have NEVER been on the ballot except for the mormon church.

[Raster]

55. As I stated several weeks ago in another post, the church is more involved in

the H8 referendum than they would like anyone to know. It is FACT that H8 would have NEVER been on the ballot except for the mormon church.

[JerseygirlCT]

102. I believe the actual dollars came from individuals

the organizing and fundraising was done via the church.

My understanding is, similar to a political campaign, with bundlers.

[merwin]

49. I can't argue with that at all. I think they should keep their noses out of Prop 8.

Especially those that are out of state lobbying for it.

You'd be surprised at exactly how much money that 2% of the population gives to the church. That and the money is probably all collectively pooled at some point so all LDS money is floating between churches. That will make any investigation very difficult.

My point was that those Mormons who are living in CA have just as much right as everyone else to live there and lobby for the passage of Prop 8.

My response was geared more towards the "The Mormons should keep their stupid crap in Utah and out of California" part. That kind of statement is as hateful and bigoted as what many of the fundamentalist Christians spout. Freedom of religion is just that... freedom to practice whatever religion you want and give your money to whoever you want, regardless of how idiotic it may be.

[Zhade]

63. Actually, they have NO right to take away others' rights. Period.

That's not how our constitution works.

[merwin]

79. They do have a right to individually vote for and lobby for the passage of a bill.

And the courts have a right to strike the law down as unconstitutional. That's how our constitution works.

[Zhade]

91. Those who brought the bill forward have no right to attempt to strip others' rights.

I wonder why you're defending this so strenuously. You DO support full, equal rights for GLBT persons - right?

[merwin]

92. Thanks for the concern. You can be assured that I am not a troll.

I shared election night with a friend of the family who's marriage is going to be nullified because of Prop 8.

I am not defending Prop 8. I am defending someone's right to support a proposition that was legally brought forward (even if the proposition itself is illegal). Granted, it should have been caught and struck down well before it made it to the ballots, but it's up to the courts to determine it unconstitutional and strike it down now. Simple civics, that's what the courts are there for.

Like it or not, the current situation is what it is. I feel sorry for people who do not grasp the fact that even gay people deserve to be married. The passage of Prop 8 just highlights how much education is needed.

Maybe instead of bashing Mormons, we should try making friends with some. A friend is much more likely to sway someone than a random stranger hurling insults.

PS:
Next time please avoid the passive-aggressive bullshit and click the "Alert" button instead of using "I wonder why..." and "You do..., right?" when you suspect someone of being a troll... Very thinly veiled and not at all polite.

[jhrobbins]

99. I do understand your argument even though I am against (obviously)

Prop 8. It is exactly like the arguments the ACLU (I belong) has to make quite often defending the right of free speech-it isn't often popular and often goes against what the individual ACLU'ers believe personally. It reminds me of the case when the KKK wanted to 'parade' in Skokie, Ill., and the ACLU defended their right (the ACLU attorney was Jewish) to assemble. Not popular, but necessary. Moliere said it best - I may not agree with what you say, but will defend your right to say it with my life (or words to that effect)

[Zhade]

105. I never thought you were a troll. That's your assumption, not mine.

I don't give a shit about being polite to anyone crying persecution when it's not happening, while real persecution of GLBT people IS happening.

[merwin]

108. That is your right.

I'm just saying that it's not the most productive way of going about it.

[boilerbabe]

11. Any time I see religion infringing on politics

is just one too many times for me. I don't care if you were brought up as Christian or Martian. Keep it separated, OK??

[merwin]

59. My point wasn't regarding religion interfering with politics.

My response was geared more towards the "The Mormons should keep their stupid crap in Utah and out of California" part. That kind of statement is as hateful and bigoted as what many of the fundamentalist Christians spout. Freedom of religion is just that... freedom to practice whatever religion you want and give your money to whoever you want, regardless of how idiotic it may be.

[Zhade]

64. Saying that Mormons should keep their bigotry out of our politics is bigoted?

Are you kidding me?

[merwin]

78. Did you even bother to read my post? It's not difficult.

I was responding to "The Mormons should keep their stupid crap in Utah and out of California". How does that equate to "Mormons should keep their bigotry out of our politics"?

[Zhade]

90. Uh, you really should take your own advice on reading. The "stupid crap" is their bigotry.

That was the poster's whole point.

[merwin]

93. Calling all Mormons bigots seems to indicate bigotry in and of itself.

Intolerance of other people's views, opinions, or lifestyles that differ from their own. By calling an entire group of people bigots, one does not take the time to understand and comprehend the religion and views of Mormons. They are not Borg. They are individuals who have their own opinions, many of whom may not support Prop 8.

A group should not be defined by its loudest members... just as I don't want my faith defined by a handful of fundamentalist Christians who happen to have a loudspeaker.

[Zhade]

106. That's not what the poster said. At all.

The poster was clearly talking about those Mormons that funded prop H8 - which is bigoted.

[natrat]

14. whatever, they probably would support prop8 back then too

[Hekate]

24. Interestingly enough, not so, due to their own early persecution by the majority. See quote...

Another DUer dropped these quotes from Mormon scripture here:

..... the LDS Churches statement made 100 years ago that they have never rescinded:

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds to the doctrine of the separation of church and state; the non-interference of church authority in political matters; and the absolute freedom and independence of the individual in the performance of his political duties. . . . we favor: The absolute separation of church and state; No domination of the state by the church; No church interference with the functions of the state; No state interference with the functions of the church, or with the free exercise of religion; The absolute freedom of the individual from the domination of ecclesiastical authority in political affairs; The equality of all churches before the law” (May 1907). http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c795f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0


“We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.” Doctrine and Covenants 134-9 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/134

end quote

[boilerbabe]

16. So, I'm Mayflower and living next to an Indian Reservation n/t

[Raster]

25. I grew up in Southern Arizona and a very strong mormon family...

I understand far, far too well.

The church is so far out of line on this issue, and I wholeheartedly welcome investigation.

[Dappleganger]

38. Same here, my mother's entire family is Mormon

HUGE family, she was the youngest of 12. She left the church at 18 and never looked back.

I love my family but the church is dead WRONG on this issue, and needs to have their IRS exemption taken away for it!

[Raster]

53. We are COMPLETELY on the same page!

[David Zephyr]

71. Your point is historically accurate. Still, bluestateguy's point is correct also.

The direction of LDS members to donate millions of dollars, to donate their time and labor to push a very hateful -- and divisive -- ballot measure was directed from Utah.

This massive, unprecented and orchestrated campaigning was not an indigious movement of Californian Mormons acting all on their own with some sort of magical distributive logic.

Have Mormons been in California for a long time? Yes.

Were Mormons here before homosexuals were? No.

The LDS directed this political action from Utah. That's the facts.

[merwin]

80. Since when does it have to be a magical indigious movement?

The head of the Church tells someone, who tells two other Mormons, who tells other Mormons. As long as it's not being preached during Church, then there is no legal problem. A pastor is just as free to talk to a member of the Church about politics in private all he wants.

However, if it is found out that the Utah churches funneled money to California to lobby it, then there is a legal issue there.

[Cleita]

5. Yes, that's what happened when we got Shitzenegger for Governor.

That was funded and orchestrated from right wing Washington think tanks. Governor Ann Richards pretty much said so in an interview with Larry King. Darryl Issa was not alone in this. He was just their tool. They staged a coupe, overthrew our recently elected Democratic Governor and installed their Republican puppet. Stupid voters finished the job for them. So now they got bold and every special interest group now can come along from out of state, fund initiative drives and get them on the ballot along with the huge drive to get the stupid voters to finish the job for them. I think it's time to stop this. We need laws curtailing outside money and special interest groups from funding and writing our laws in our state.

[slackmaster]

33. Governator was opposed to Proposition 8

Just to set the record straight.

[Cleita]

52. Big deal. He only opposed it because it was politically safe for him to so.

He never has used his powers as Governor to put his money where his mouth is on this issue. He makes those liberal sounding noises so people like you say, oh the big fellow is a jolly good fellow, isn't he? He vetoed universal health care for all Californians. The whole state was in favor of it and we could have been on our way to bringing single payer, universal health care to the whole nation, if California had been the first to implement it, but he vetoed it. He cut pay on California health care employees and he's opposed the unions. Then his last act, putting state employees on minimum wage, essentially putting the blame on the employees for the budget impasse instead of himself for being a stupid executive officer seems to have eluded you , however, he's opposed to Prop 8 so that's good enough for you to ignore everything this man has done to fuck up the state.

On edit: Opinion on this: http://www.insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/2008/11/arnold-schwarzenegger-thinks-p.html

I'm sorry, but I just do not get Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on the gay marriage issue. This is a man who TWICE, with the stroke of his pen, could have made it legal for same-sex couples to marry each other in California.

But he wanted to let the courts decide.

The court decided it was OK. But last Tuesday, the people decided differemtly and now gays can't marry each other anymore in this state.

[yardwork]

62. Enron took down the previous governor.

I remember because I have family in California. Energy prices went sky-high and people blamed the Democratic governor, so the right-wingers got him voted out of office and replaced him with this Republican. Then it turned out that Enron had artificially manipulated the prices of energy in California.

[Zhade]

66. Don't forget, there's documents out there that prove schwarzi met with eneron before running.

"It's all part of the plan." -- The Joker

[yardwork]

67. As Gore Vidal has said, there was a coup in the U.S. in 2000.

[slackmaster]

31. As California goes, it is often said, so goes the nation

I care just as much about the civil rights of someone in Georgia or Alaska being violated as I do about the same thing happening in Barstow. I can't blame people outside of California for trying to influence what happens here.

[LiberalFighter]

34. I would like to use that to keep them out but have to realize they have members in California.

What is probably the most important requirement that should be enforced is full disclosure.

Another requirement that could be used to restrict lobbying efforts would be to require the organization to be registered with the state and all officers of the organization be residents of the state.

These are suggestions in case California does not already have them on the books.

[liberalhistorian]

47. First of all, there ARE Mormons in CA,

not just Utah. In fact, some of the first white settlements in CA were Mormons.

Second, it's not just the out-of-state factor. That actually happens in a lot of states with a lot of issues, you'd be surprised just how often. Here in SD, we've had to deal with that kind of thing with initiatives on abortion, open records, tinkering with our judicial systems, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It's the fact that the LDS violated its tax-exempt status by actively working for the passage of a political measure, providing substantial financial and volunteer support. That alone should get its tax-exempt status revoked.

[Mojorabbit]

68. It happens all the time

Big money from antismoking groups flooded the airwaves here to get smoking banned in public for instance.

[defendandprotect]

2. Hope so--!!!

[proud patriot]

3. Good

:kick:

[cloudythescribbler]

7. If the Mormon Church is FOUND to have violated 501(c)3 conditions, could an 'undue influence' type

argument be used, as attempts are already being made to use equal protection and privacy, to overturn prop 8? Surely the argument speaks to the legitimacy of the PROCESS, rather than the CA Supreme Court trying to overturn a provision of the State Consitution.

Are there any concerned lawyers around to answer this, with stuff like case names and such?

[boilerbabe]

15. You have a good legal point there but this should have been addressed

long before it got to that point. Yes, in my view, they have violated their tax-free status by interfering in a political process, so you are so very right. Let's hope that this is prominent in the repeal process! I am so impressed with your legal prowess!! Dont' know if there are any precendents on this one, seems like a new thing to me, but keep your legal eye on it...

[Realityhack]

46. 501c3 orgs are allowed to do this type of advocacy.

They can advocate for issues. Just not for candidates or parties. And that is the way it should stay. I don't think there is any case for claiming they should have their tax exempt status revoked.

[machI]

18. Use the RICO statutes to take down the Mormons

It should not be that hard to demonstrate mail and wire fraud for an out of state church attempting to influence the election.

I say put the screws to the Mormons and make them pay for what they did to us.




The Constitution is not a vehicle for the majority to force its will upon the minority.

[prostock69]

21. Some Religions in this Country want to replace the Constitution

with their own Religious laws. This is what this all boils down to. You let them get away with this and next it'll be the rights of every minority group out there that doesn't fit in with their religious beliefs. Folks, whether you belief in the invisible man or not, Religion is tearing our world apart and it's only going to get worse.

[Ms. Toad]

26. The current arguments aren't equal protection and privacy

- the argument is that the change to the constitution made by the amendment was so fundamental that it should have been made by the (more difficult) process for revising the constitution - not the (easier) process for amending it.

From the brief article on the new investigation of the Mormon church, it is hard to tell what is being investigated - but it sounds more like a review of proper accounting for donations the church made. Did they tell the truth about how much their donations were worth - most likely a California elections law restriction. As to violating 501(c)3 restrictions - the restrictions limit supporting candidates or attempting to influence legislation. A ballot issue is neither a candidate nor legislation.

Assuming, hypothetically, the church did violate the 501(c)3 restrictions - the remedy is to pull its tax exempt status. The restrictions aren't a ban on participation - they are a ban on getting a tax break while participating in certain activities. If you participate in those activities, you lose your tax break.

[kwassa]

30. I'm surprised that a ballot issue would not be considered legislation

as that is the essential effect of the ballot issue, creating a new law. It this isn't an attempt to influence legislation, I don't know what is.

[Ms. Toad]

39. legislation is

law enacted by a legislative body (senate, house of representatives, congress, whatever the corresponding local legislative bodies are). Law can also be created by the courts (common law or case law), or by ballot initiative.

As to the California issue, it was an amendment to the constitution - not a law. (Ballot initiatives can create laws in many states - but that was not the goal of this particular ballot initiative.

[Bette Noir]

41. Hey, if the Mormons lost their tax exemption,

California could balance its budget! The Mormon Church is immensely wealthy.

[Ms. Toad]

48. It isn't likely.

But even if they did, it would not likely have the impact you might expect.

The biggest impact would be that the individual donors could deduct their contributions to the church on their federal taxes. It might ultimately mean donors stop contributing as much, but it is the donors who pay taxes on the money the church gets - not the church itself. (Gifts (donations) are not generally treated as income so they would not be taxed to the church - they just cannot be deducted from the donor's income.) Non-deductibility generally impacts federal taxes, but generally doesn't impact state taxes since contributions are often not deductible from state income for the purpose of state income taxes.

Interest, capital growth, or dividends would be taxed, sales taxes would be collected by the state for purchases made, and property taxes would be collected - but those are the only significant new taxes the state would collect.

[slackmaster]

35. Hypocrisy on tax code violations runs wide and deep

I experienced it first-hand as the manager of a city council race. People of any persuasion will look the other way when a non-profit that they happen to agree with breaks the rules.

[Baby Snooks]

45. The law just simply isn't being enforced...

No 501-C-3 is allowed to engage in the political process. Period. But of course that is the law. And we have had a president for eight years who doesn't believe in the law. Along with a Speaker of the House who for the past two years doesn't either. Reality is too many have pandered for too long to the "religious wrong" in this country and they are afraid of a backlash if they stand up for the Constitution.

And I don't expect things to change with Barack Obama given the fact his administration is becoming the Clinton administration.

[madmadmad]

8. let's hope something comes of this!

[moonbatmax]

9. For Some Strange Reason...

...I just can't resist linking this here:

[cboy4]

10. Tax the fuck out of them

Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

http://www.irs.gov/irb/2004-22_IRB/ar09.html

[boilerbabe]

12. Exactly! n/t

[DUlover2909]

17. TAX THE MORMON CHURCH!

I'm listening!:P

[terrya]

19. Damn right.

I'm goddamned fucking sick and tired of these religions engaging in blantantly political causes while going around with their precious tax exempt status. Fuck that shit. Tax them and tax them and goddammit, tax them some more. That also most certainly includes the Catholic Church.

[lonestarnot]

20. Yes!

[slackmaster]

36. The prohibition against partisan activity by non-profits is one of the least enforced provisions

In the federal tax code. Organizations of all stripes, left/right, liberal/conservative, secular/religious, break it ALL THE TIME and almost never get called on the carpet for it. By the time the IRS investigates the few they do investigate, the damage is already done and there is no way to un-do it.

[Nevernose]

74. What about state income taxes?

Are churches in California immune from state income taxes?

[slackmaster]

75. I believe they are, also from property taxes but not sales taxes

Tax-exempt status is a pretty sweet deal.

[racaulk]

44. Hell yes!!! n/t

[Divine Discontent]

22. Rec #20

they need to lose their tax free status - they directly tried to influence legislation, and even did so in a very obvious way from ANOTHER state. And the funny thing is they act like they didn't do ANYTHING wrong... who us??? oh no....


This design on dozens of different shirts, button, stickers, mugs & more! http://www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable/1434671

[Coexist]

23. no 501 (c) 3 for you! (said in my best soup Nazi voice)

[Odin2005]

27. Good. The Mormon cult needs to be shown as a bastards they are.

For example racism was a part of these fuckers' creed until the government pressured them into having a elder have a "revelation" allowing African-Americans into the church. Hate is an inseparable part of the Mormon creed.

Shit like Prop-8 are turning me more and more from "just" an atheist into an all-out anti-theist.

[merwin]

95. Uh, slavery was part of America's creed at one time...

and it took a civil war to get rid of that. Wouldn't that make us even bigger bastards than them?

[LincolnRepublican]

28. Since when do we put human rights to a popular vote?

This whole argument of the state of California's ballot on gay rights is ridiculous. Did we put slavery to a vote? Women's suffrage? The reality is the reason this was on a ballot is because California's lawmakers don't have a spine and truly don't embrace freedom. If they did, we would already have equal rights for everyone.

[LynneSin]

40. Amen!

And welcome to DU :hi:

Like your screen name. I think if Lincoln were alive today he's be shocked at the state of his party

[Zhade]

69. If you're really a republican, you make more sense on this issue than some Dems on this board!

NT!

[JerseygirlCT]

103. THIS is the problem.

Everything else is a sideline.

Civil rights should never be up for a popular vote. The notion is nonsensical.

[Maryland Liberal]

29. Kinda makes you wanna not vote

I mean - if a court is gonna over turn your vote - whats the point?

[yardwork]

43. Which of your rights would you like to have up for a vote today?

Suppose the rest of the country got together and decided to vote Maryland out of the union. Would you go along with that? Think that's ok?

[hunter]

50. I'm thinking we should deny Mormons the right to marry.

Maybe Catholics too.

They're having too many kids already.

And if they still insist on having too many kids, even when they are not married, take the kids away and send them to special schools, sorta like what we used to do here with the Native Americans, or the Australians with the Aboriginal people.

I'm starting a petition. We must modernize our traditional family values of intolerance, bigotry, and hatred. I think this would be a good place to start.

[yardwork]

65. I wouldn't do that, but if Proposition 8 stands, nobody's rights are safe.

Apparently any minorities' rights can be taken away in California with a simple majority vote. Almost everybody is a minority of one kind or another. Blue eyes, religion, whatever.

It's always easy for a majority mob to gang up on any given minority and vote their rights away if you operate by mob rule.

[Nevernose]

76. That's actually rather brilliant

How many signatures are needed to put an initiative on the ballot?

And just limit it to Mormons. Besides the fact that it might actually pass that way, it makes the point better.

[merwin]

82. Alas, you cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.

Just on sexual orientation.

[hunter]

87. Well, we'll just have to declare it's not a religion first.

Care to sign my petition that revokes the status of LDS as a religion?

[merwin]

88. Huh? You can't just declare something not a religion.

If you could, Scientology would never exist.

[hunter]

97. My hyperbole is showing.

:blush:

The secular state has even less reason to deny gay couples the civil right of marriage than it does to recognize the marriages, baptisms, and other rituals performed by any particular church, most especially the Mormons who baptize the dead and "seal" them into family units.

If we were logical creatures we'd drop the conceit that religion has anything at all to do with the secular civil right of marriage.

[Maven]

51. Really?

How would you have voted on Prop 8?

Which of your personal rights do I get to weigh in on at the ballot box?

[LeftyMom]

56. California ballot initiatives are overturned due to constitutionality issues pretty frequently.

I suppose the most famous example is Prop 187, which would have prevented undocumented immigrant children from attending public schools.

[Ignis]

57. Yes, and we're all going to die one day.

Why bother struggling until then?

:eyes: :banghead:

[Gormy Cuss]

58. The point is that the courts must review and determine the constitutionality of such amendments.

In this case, it's a state court determination of a state constitution issue. There's nothing new or unusual about court review. It'd be nice to have review of initiatives before they made the ballot but that's not how the system is set up.

In this case, CA uses a commission to review fair practices too.



edited to finish thought.:hangover:

[Zhade]

70. Do you support GLBT equal rights?

DUers are EXPECTED to support full equal rights for GLBT persons, period.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

73. Well, when dumbfuck, bigoted idiots like the mormon church champion electoral trash like this...

it deserves to be put down in a court of law. Much like the assholes that would vote for it.

[merwin]

86. Well that's the bigot calling the bigot black, isn't it?

Aren't you being just the slightest bit bigoted with your description of Mormons?

[Zhade]

89. He said the mormon church - which is full of bigoted assholes.

He didn't say "every single mormon".

[merwin]

94. The same could be said of the Democratic Party.

We're "full of bigoted assholes" as well. Could you try to paint with a broader brush next time?

According to Wikipedia:
"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding state of mind"

Take a minute to read through the posts in this thread and see if you can't spot the intolerance of opinions. I don't believe that anyone here has the right to call a group "full of bigoted assholes" without taking time to understand them and actually get to know some of those bigoted assholes.

It's no better than the freepers saying that the Middle-East is full of terrorist assholes. While there may be many of them in the Middle-East, there are far more who are not.

[Raster]

96. Don't even start with me. I was raised mormon in a prominent Arizona mormon family.

I know plenty of mormons. My family IS MORMON. And yes, bigoted assholes hits the mark.

[merwin]

107. OK then, I must have had a different experience with my Mormon family than

you did with yours. Fair enough.

[Raster]

109. My immediate family--those that have parted with the church--are caring and accepting.

The friends and family that are still quite active participants are bigoted. And all due respect, I've noticed from your other posts you are not gay. You are a straight man with a young family. You were allowed to get married and raise a family. That is NOT the case for me. I am gay. I was born gay. Being gay is as intrinsic to my being as is your heterosexuality. Being gay is NOT something I could change, or for that matter would want to change. But in the mormon church we have a religious organization--whose teachings I no longer abide by nor believe in--that would seek to deny me my civil rights, even to the point of breaking the laws of the land and even act contrary to church doctrine. Being gay is just as natural to my being as a person of African-American's descent is their skin color. And I present to you that every white man or woman that would believe they are superior to any person of color and would seek to deny then the same civil rights that they enjoy is a bigoted asshole. And I would further present that every heterosexual person that would seek to deny me and my GLBT brother and sisters our civil rights is a bigoted asshole. And unfortunately the official stance of the LDS religion is to deny me my civil rights.

[Zuiderelle]

100. I should kinda make you wonder why civil rights are ever put up to vote.

Instead of making snide little remarks like yours.

[LanternWaste]

101. No votes are being overturned, no allegations of wrongdoing being advertised...

No votes are being overturned, no allegations of wrongdoing being advertised...

Simply an investigation into whether monies were being properly reported at the (legal) request of another special interest group.

But if that type of judicial and legislative oversight into the appropriate use or misuse of money to get legislation passed "Kinda makes you wanna not vote", then by all means-- don't, it's yours to use or not use...

:eyes:

[NMMNG]

110. Pfft

The court might decide that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional. If you want to see that as "overturning votes" you're free to do so. As it stands my marriage is in legal limbo thanks to a bunch of bigoted asshats who think it's appropriate to put human rights to a popular vote. Don't think you're going to get any sympathy from me for your hurt little feelers.

[northofdenali]

77. ANY church that preaches politics

should be taxed.

A local "Baptist" (I don't even consider them Christians, and know and love many true Baptists), during Election season, had a scrolling marquee that read "Republicans kill animals. Democrats kill babies."

Why they aren't taxed (in general, I think exemption from taxes is WRONG regardless of the "church") under federal guidelines is a total mystery to me.

I am all for GOTV efforts in churches, but once the pulpit starts telling you HOW to vote, they are a political organization and therefore subject to taxes.

GO CALIFORNIA!!

[merwin]

83. Uh, most religious institutions ARE political systems.

You mean to keep out of city/state/federal politics :)

Religious organizations are allowed to take a position on bills, just not political candidates.

Look it up :)

[northofdenali]

84. I have and I do understand the "system"

Just don't agree with it! (Typical of me, eh?) :P

[merwin]

85. Heh, yeah.

I think churches should butt out of politics, unless it's a one-on-one discussion with the pastor or something.

[Oak2004]

98. Yes, but it is not allowed to be a "substantial activity" nt