Court Backs Warrantless Searches Abroad

[douglas9]

Source: New York Times

The authorities may lawfully conduct searches and electronic surveillance against United States citizens in foreign countries without a warrant, a federal appeals court panel said on Monday, bolstering the government’s power to investigate terrorism by ruling that a key constitutional protection afforded to Americans does not apply overseas.

The unanimous decision by a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, in Manhattan, came in the case of three Al Qaeda terrorists convicted a few months before 9/11 in a conspiracy that involved the 1998 bombings of two American embassies in East Africa.

The court did not address the question of whether the government could conduct warrantless wiretaps of international calls involving people in the United States, an issue that drove a wedge between the Bush administration and Congress. But the ruling did give footing to those who say that terrorism suspects can be successfully and effectively prosecuted in civilian courts.

The warrantless searches must still be reasonable, as the Constitution requires, Judge José A. Cabranes wrote for the panel, adding that the government had met that standard in the case of one defendant, Wadih el-Hage, a close aide to Osama bin Laden and a naturalized American citizen who was living in Nairobi, Kenya. The government searched his home and monitored his phone conversations.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/nyregion/25embassy.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

[ixion]

1. chalk up another strike against freedom, democracy and rule of law

it seems they just can't raise the police state fast enough. :grr:

[nyy1998]

2. Different jurisdiction and different laws

so they can get away with this.

[MilesColtrane]

3. "The warrantless searches must still be reasonable, as the Constitution requires"

Except, if this ruling holds, it won't be a judge making the determination of what's reasonable, it will be some faceless guy in Homeland Security, the NSA, or CIA.

The Fourth Amendment doesn't say anything about in which countries the people's rights may, or may not be breached.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This one will be going to the Supreme Court.

[Ian David]

13. Individual agents don't even need to ask permission from their supervisors anymore.

Eventually, the task of determining what is "reasonable" will fall to someone hired through OfficeTeam, and searches will be conducted by the FBI's Summer Intern program.

[melm00se]

4. one question

Were Kenyan laws (of breaking an entering or governmental search and seizure) violated?

[The Stranger]

5. If the U.S. doesn't play by its own rules, how can it be expected to abide by someone else's?

[melm00se]

7. my point is

is that this one piece of information is missing and whether they did or did not follow Kenyan law would have a whole lot of bearing on the legitimacy of the search and seizure.

[Ian David]

12. I think that in Kenya, they first have to make sure no witches are causing car accidents...

... before they can ask permission to search someone.

[melm00se]

16. now

THERE is a well informed comment.

Kenya is a constitutional representative democracy and, like the US, has a constitutional protection against arbitrary search and seizure and after a careful review of that document I can find no references to these "witches" that you claim have to be consulted before a search order can be requested or obtained.

[Ian David]

17. If you give me time, I will go edit Wikipedia, and then I will be correct. n/t

[mulsh]

6. Pls educate me-in what way does the US Constitution apply to

actions & our rights in other countries? Are other sovereign nations somehow required to up hold US Law?

[Ian David]

10. This means The CIA or FBI can walk in2 your hotel room at Sandals in Jamaica if they feel like it...

... and dig through all your condoms and sex toys until they find either your ounce of pot or a thermonuclear device hidden inside your container of leather-scented anal lube.

Provided such a search is "reasonable."

[MilesColtrane]

15. I think it applies to our rights in other countries only in regard to our own government.

[NYVet]

8. About the judges in this decision.

José A. Cabranes

First nominated to the Federal circuit
November 1979
Elevated to the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
May 1994


Jon O Newman

First nominated to the Federal circuit
December 1971
Elevated to the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
April 1979


Wilfred Feinberg

First nominated to the Federal circuit
Recess appointment 1961, and permanent appointment to that position the following year.
Elevated to the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
1966


It appears that they were all nominated and confirmed during Democratic administrations. Anyone care to make a guess what they have hiding in their closets that was used against them by Bushco to rule this way?

[Ian David]

11. They thought President Obma might use this to search Dick Cheney's lovenest in Dubai?

Some people say.

[WriteDown]

21. This has me stumped....

Bizarro world.

[Ian David]

9. "The warrantless searches must still be reasonable..."

And aren't the COURTS supposed to judge what is reasonable... by issuing a WARRANT?

[Ian David]

14. Congratulations! You've just won free tickets to meet Ozzy Osbourne in Dubai!

Here are your airline tickets...

Here are your backstage passes...

Here are your hotel reservations...

Here is a free set of American Tourister luggage (with nifty LoJack for Luggage installed!)

We've also included a personal concierge for your trip, Agent Smi- I mean, John Smith...

[bemildred]

18. We alread kidnap people and jail them without charges or trial for indefinite periods.

With "harsh interrogation" for desert. What's a little voyeurism beside that?

[Peace Patriot]

19. Our Constitutional rights stop at the border? I don't think so.

This. is. absurd.

They've gone from secret courts ruling on "probable cause" to nobody in particular searching anything they feel like searching, belonging to U.S. citizens, anywhere in the world.

The Constitution is in tatters.

[MilesColtrane]

20. If this decision stands, it can be argued that none of the rights enumerated by...

...the Bill of Rights applies to American citizens living, or traveling on foreign soil.

If the government doesn't like you it can simply wait until you cross the border, apprehend you, and put a slug in the back of your head.

[reggie the dog]

22. How does this work?

the USA can send cops to my house in France? What if I refuse to let them in? Could I call the French cops and have the US cops busted? If they listen to my calls do they still have to get a French warrant? I have French nationality as well as American nationality. When in the USA I am considered American, when in France I am considered French. I could use this to my advantage by demanding that the French goverment respect my rights as a French citizen on French soil then they could block the USA and its cops from searching me without a warrant.

I am also a citizen of the European Union and have EU rights that must be respected. So even in another EU country like the Netherlands I am considered European and French, not American, and my EU rights would apply, so I think I could stop the US cops from busting me at a coffeehouse because of this.

Is anyone sure?

[reggie the dog]

23. They say search and surveillance

can they bust you on foreign soil? For example can the DEA now bust Americans in coffeehouses in Amsterdam? They can search Americans with no warrant, but can they bust them?

[Zhade]

24. So, uh, we cease to be American citizens when outside this country?

NT!

[High Plains]

25. So can I shoot the guy I find breaking in to search my foreign place?

Since US law doesn't apply, ya know.