Mumbai rocked by deadly shootings

[MaineDem]

Source: BBC

Gunmen have opened fire at a number of sites in the Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay), killing at least two people.

Police said the shootings appeared to be terrorist attacks.

A number of people were reported injured when gunmen opened fire in a train station and at a restaurant popular with tourists.

Shootings were also reported in other parts of the city near two hotels and a hospital. At least two suspected grenade attacks were reported.

Sajjad Karim, an MEP for the North West of England who is in Mumbai, told the BBC he had seen a gunman opening fire in the lobby of Taj Mahal Palace Hotel.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7751160.stm

---

MSNBC is running this full time now. I didn't see anything but airline travel on CNN.

[Parche]

1. India Quaeda?

:shrug: :hi:

[nebenaube]

3. probably...

probably just a few really creative and talented software developers who went postal due to working under the wrong metrics of statistical process control...

[sarcasmo]

6. I am sure they have their own version of the CIA.

[Diclotican]

140. sarcasmo

sarcasmo

They do not have an version of the CIA.. But the Indian security service is very closed up into the British intelligence system.. And the system is in many cases similar to the british system. Even than after more than 60 year, it have been a lot more Indian than british... You know, the british had more than 400 year in India, and it show in the intelligence system...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[ohio2007]

142. Diclotican

I'm sure Pakistan has their own version of the CIA

I'm sure they wouldn't know anything about these current proceedings.

Any opinion either way ?

[Diclotican]

213. ohio2007

ohio2007

The Pakistani intelligence service is indeed a similar system as the CIA.. The infamous ISI, who is claimed to be party supporting the extremist both in Pakistan and also in India. And who is claimed to be loosely supportive of mr Bin Laden and Taliban, who they set up working in Afghanistan in the 1990s.. In fact, if you want to follow the dots you would be surprised where you are been led... And in many cases the ISI footprint are all over it sometimes..

I do not know.. But I have a feeling that some elements inside the ISI very vell know who this attackers is, and if not supportive of it, never was thinking seriously about fighting them.. Pakistan and India have after all been in fighting each other both by arms and by other means for more than 60 year now.. And if Pakistan's ISI should manage to hit back on India for some reason or another, withouts the problem of been proven as the attacker, so much better.. Parts of the ISI are ruling their own affairs, and are not in control by the government.. Some of ISI is so secretive that the pakistani government probley do not know if they exist.. Even the US CIA are not _that_ secretive.. And the CIA have had some pretty ugly past when it came to how the government had the power over CIA..

I do not know if this extremist can be linked to the pakistani government or more to the point to the security apparatus ISI. But as pointed before, parts of ISI are not under government hand and control, and have in many cases lived their own lives, and made their own missions.. Maybe this is something like that?.. Or maybe it is just some indians who was pissed off, and want to hit back to some "in Justice" they believe they have been treated for?.. To be honest I do not know.. But if a unknown extremist group just happened to hit that hard against tourist hotels, and is specific going after british and americans tourist, something is very wrong.. It is not random that just americans and the british have been targeted, and that the rest is not been attacked.. Some is playing this game, and some is behind it all.. Some says it is Al-Qauda who are attaching this sites.. Some claim it to be groups who support Al-Qauda and other groups as the Taliban and such.. Again I do not know.. But it is in the same league as they are working in... We will maybe never really know who is behind this, because I really doubt this type of groups is just given up, but will rather fight to the end, and take as many enemies with them as possible.. If the indian security service is to get one or more into custody.... Then at least the intelligence system Will know a little more.. BUT i DOUBT that this group will give up, or be maimed so they can be arrested.. This type of groups is going down.. In flames with no survivors...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[ohio2007]

248. Diclotican

I think we both understand the tightrope Musharraf walked with the post 9/11 attacks reigning in the ISI operations in Afghanistan and the ISI was not pleased by the western arm twisting. Due to the attack in 2002 on India's Parliament building, Kashmir separatists ( some say they are under the control of the ISI )almost pulled off a nuclear war between India and Pakistan. Musharraf cut a deal for big $$ in order to prevent a war between India and Pakistan in 2002 and an agreement to "clamp down" on terrorism in his own country.Again, meaning clamp down on the ISI
All bets are off as Bush and Musharraf era comes to a close.
But the ISI is still intact as the new Pakistan government has to come to terms with what has spiraled out of their control.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008022419_peshawar28.html
The current leadership is not a Musharraf strongman and when they sent a "peace delegation" into the frontier to "talk peace with the Taliban,
well, they had their throats cut.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/world/asia/26pstan.html?_r=2&oref=slogin

No respect for anything but brute superior force.
And in your own words " parts of ISI are not under government control "
ISI also receives covert funding from an oil rich fundamentalist state. Some of the funding is used to 'educate' the children and keeping the red mosque operating in the black
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=552_1201538050
but the game has changed.

Musharraf and Bush are gone.

How strong are the new players? I would suspect when the dust settles, the sabers will be rattling in Indian Parliament for action soon. The fingers will be pointing at the usual suspects.

[Diclotican]

250. ohio2007

ohio2007

We are in agreement that ISI are one big bad player when it coming to how the extremists is given help, the equipment and in some cases also help from elements inside the ISI. It is many who have been pointed finger into the closest elements of ISI.. The former coup general Musharaff (who Jr cant even name when asked in 2000) trow out the former head of ISI, because he was misusing the security system to further extremists gain in the frontier provinces... And in many cases the ISI have been known to be very helpfully when it came to homegrown extremists.. Some claim that parts of ISI indeed are infiltrated by the extremist, and that some part of the organization is indeed outside the governments control. Who is ALWAYS a danger because the system have all the STATEs power, but not the responsibility. It is a reason that in many other country the Security apparatus, is very strict controlled..

True, the arm wrestling that Musharaff was been handled in 2001, when he very un politely was given the choice of siding with mr Bush, or feel the wrath of the same person was something that was not just an insult to Pakistan, but also to Musharaff himself I believe.. And I believe mr Musharaff in the weeks, and years after that call he was given at 5 in the morning was something he really regret taking.. He should just have told that he would take the phone in the morning.. And then worked with his cabinet to give President George Walker Bush a far better answer in a day or two's time.. The phone he was given was very clear, either you are here to get the terrorist killed, or I will bomb you.. You do not do that to a country who happened to have nuclear weapon on their own.. Even that Pakistan probely have not the same missiles and mutch other things that the US have, they ARE still a nuclear country.. And as such not something to just play around at will...

After Musharaff I do belive, as you pointed out everything is off to bet on.. The new pakistani government are NOT that steady as the former regime of mr Musharaff.. It looks rather that the new government are typical for Pakistan, civilian government's tend to fight them selfs and other more than they manage to work to make the country little better than it was before. The corruptions, and let say it, criminal behavior from the top of down to the lowest civil servants is just staggering compared to other country... In every level you have some of the same problems, corruption and outright criminal behavior.. And sad to say, the military ruler Musharaff have not managed to get this under control. Even that he worked hard to to this..

The Talibans is another scary thing to work with in Pakistan, because the Taliban sees to have a lot of sympathy from many segments of the populations.. Not just the dirt poor, but also some parts of the middle classes seen to have a Little "love affair" with the Taliban, and many organizations, who is sympathetic to the Taliban, and give them both shelter when needed, food when needed and money when the Taliban have to get something have support from many parts of the country.. Some Mosques, are indeed the hallmark of exactly, you guessed it, the Taliban.. And the fact is that we do have another twist to the Story here.. The Saudi-Arabian are using a Los of their money to build up extremist schools, and are indeed helping making thousands of angry "holly warriors" to fight Taliban, or other extremists who is fidgeting the "good war" against the west.. The Saudi-Arabian connection, to both the Taliban, and other extremist groups, like Al-Qauda is many, and dangerous to follow to the end.. Osama Bin Laden are an Saudi-Arabian, and have lot of sympathy, into the royal house of the Saudi Kingdom. Something that very seldom is pointed out, when talking about the subject.. After 9/11 2001, a few member of the house of Saud was getting stooped in the Frankfurt pass control, and it was discovered more than 8 million US dollar, who the government in Germany should ended in some extremist mosque, and maybe even to extremist groups who are known to use violence both in France and in the UK.. Because of the "immunity" the members had, the german police could not arrest them, but they could ask them to leave the country in 24 hours . Who they did, and as I know it, never came back to Germany...

Some oil rich country are indeed founding the caps, madras's who are "education" the kids.. TO be holly warriors no less.. The main subject is to learn the Koran by heart, in arabic, a language for the most part muslims do not know well, or have some knowledge over. The kids learn their Koran, but they do not learn other subjects, like Math, geography and such. No Civil law classes there..

IN 2009 a whole new game is setting up to play, and we have not clue how it could end. It could end bad, and it could end good.. I do not know, but it doesn't look to good in my crystal scull.. As you have pointed out, both India and Pakistan have been at the brink of war, a nuclear war it was. But it was stooped because US bribed the Pakistanis to stand down from their posture (it was over Kashmir wasn't it?) But how long can United States bribe the pakistani government with money?. As I know it US have their own problem with money and think like that, and are in no position to bribe others to do their will..

What I fear is that a regional war, in Pakistan, a civil war would excellent out of control. This is an country who are far from safe in best of times. And if social unrest is tearing the country apart we have no clue what happened next.. And Pakistan HAVE nuclear weapon, and have show the willingness to export this devils weapons to other parts of the world.. Both North Korea and Libya get a lot of their know how from Pakistan.. And if the country is breaking up we have not reason to believe that the "right" government in Pakistan will get the hand, and the codes to lunch the missiles.. Not by a long shoot.. I read once a book about this and even that they managed to get the control codes there, in the neck of time. It is no reason to automatic believe that in the real life, the "right" government Will get hand of the security software to look out everyone else.. And in any cases a missile can be tearn down, even if it means you have to work with it for many months.. And if you get yourself nuclear weapons grade, you can easy build your own Little device to blow up your enemies.. And Pakistan and India have been at ods with them self since 1947..

The Indian Parliament Will with no doubt in my mind when this is over ask for actions.. To stop the terrorism who have been attacking the country, and who have killed so many tourists. It takes many, many year to build up a tourist industry, it takes just a rumor to break it.. And the pictures on BBC, and CNN have definitely damaged India as an tourist place.
And compared to Pakistan, India ARE an superpower..They do have better nuclear weapons, they do have a far better equipment army, and have a lot more weapon to attack Pakistan if the order ever got there... But of course India can't go into a war footing to soon, and hopefully in the meantime the indian Parliament would be little cool headed to get a war with Pakistan - who after all HAVE nuclear weapons... But even without the nuclear options, the government in Pakistan, and more to the point the military KNOW that if all hells broke out, and the finger pointing is going into Islamabad.. Then they know they might have a chance in hell, as a snow ball might have to survive.. India is bigger, and have a lot larger army than Pakistan have.. But if it is in India's interest to occupy a country who doesn't want to be part of India is maybe an another case. I doubt it is worth the price...

I believe we are living in very intersting time.. Even if we just managed to keep a aye on the most important thing, we could be into some very interesting 12 months ahead.. In Pakistan, India and in the Central Asian parts of the world.. Scary absolutely, but yes intersting..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[MaineDem]

2. From Reuters: Attacks in Mumbai appear to be terror attack: police

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Fatal shootings in India's financial hub of Mumbai appear to be a terrorist attack, a senior police office said on Wednesday.

...

At least two people have died and 10 have been wounded.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4AP6PI20081126?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

[PassingFair]

4. times of india saying...

16 dead and 50 wounded...so far.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/

Glad my daughter is back home.

:scared:

[AspenRose]

12. Ditto for my sister in law.

Dear God.

[PassingFair]

17. My daughter was in Pune...

south of Mumbai, but she spent a lot
of time in Mumbai.

She has eaten in Leopold's.

She is at the airport picking up some of her
exchange friends that are spending Thanksgiving
with us, so this will be very much on their minds.

[AspenRose]

22. Aurangabad

but her mother in law has been receiving cancer treatment in Mumbai.

[ohio2007]

23. sleeper cells didn't like the news last week about the Bali verdict

executions


I could be wrong
:sarcasm:

[xchrom]

5. this is looking to be very bad. nt

[mvd]

9. I wish we could put in PE Obama now

This indeed is not good.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Reports saying foreigners were targeted

Times of India says up to 80 may have been killed; some reports say hostages may have been taken

[Swede]

8. CNN reporting 55 dead.

On now.

[More_liberal_than_mo]

10. Now 77 dead and toll rising fast

hostages at 2 major hotel. American and British passport holders were taken to top floors. This is getting really bad, really fast.

[maddezmom]

11. least 80 people have been killed and 250 injured in the attacks, which occurred in seven locations

Scores reportedly killed in Mumbai attacks

By John Letzing, MarketWatch
Last update: 2:39 p.m. EST Nov. 26, 2008Comments: 23SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - A series of coordinated bomb and gun attacks in Mumbai, India have claimed dozens of lives while sowing chaos and confusion in the country's financial capital, according to media reports Wednesday.

The online edition of the Times of India reported that at least 80 people have been killed and 250 injured in the attacks, which occurred in seven locations including Mumbai's crowded CST railway station.

CNN reported that gunmen are reportedly holed up in the city's swanky Taj hotel and Oberoi hotel, and are locked into gun battles with police. There have been five "shootouts and two grenade attacks," according to CNN.
Additional attacks were reported at Cama Hospital, CNN reported.

The online edition of The Wall Street Journal quoted Mumbai police commissioner A.N. Roy as saying the police are treating the attackers as terrorists who "opened fire indiscriminately."

more:http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Scores-reportedly-killed-Mumbai-attacks/story.aspx?guid=%7BF234388E-AD4F-4BF5-9E8A-E33F54EABECD%7D

[myrna minx]

13. Oh my god, this is horrible.

:(

[maddezmom]

14. CNNI is reporting hostages taken. “They wanted anyone with British or American passports.

more:
A series of shootings and bomb blasts at luxury hotels and bars in the south of the city hit at least nine locations. Security sources said “a major terror attack” was unfolding amid reports that foreigners had been taken hostage in one hotel.

Shootings were reported in the lobby of the five-star Taj Mahal Palace hotel in the Colaba area of south Bombay and at the nearby Leopolds bar, a popular destination with western backpackers. Witnesses described pools of blood and bullet scarred walls at both locations.

A witness at the hotel told a local television station: “They wanted anyone with British or American passports.

It was feared that the death toll could rise significantly.

Nearby, witnesses described a “high intensity” bomb blast at the Oberoi hotel, also in the south of the city, a regular meeting place for businessmen and wealthy tourists. Paramilitary forces were readying to storm the tower-block building, one of Bombay’s best-known landmarks as smoke continued to pour from the hotel lobby amid fears that hostages were being held by gunmen inside.

more:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5240126.ece

[TheCoxwain]

15. My cousin is in Mumbai on work ...I hope he is ok ...

[maddezmom]

18. I hope so as well

:hug:

[Skittles]

21. I have many virtual coworkers in Mumbai

:(

[goclark]

31. Prayers

:hug:

[More_liberal_than_mo]

16. Updates from CNN and MSNBC

It seems now that many other sites in the city have also been attacked. The attacks are still continuing even though more than 2 hours have passed since the initial attacks. There were reports that at least one of the Indian terrorist organizations affiliated with Al Qaeda is involved. Westerners seem to be the main target.

[TheCoxwain]

19. Some outfit called Deccan Mujahideen is taking responsibility

are they affiliated with Al Qaeda? ... I ve never of this group before ..

[ohio2007]

24. The same people, different name to fit the "mission"

[PassingFair]

26. Probably a local group of Indian Mujahideen.

"Deccan" is a word that means "south"
it is frequently used in regards to Maharashtra State.

[dipsydoodle]

28. Yes - a local group

probably wholly unassociated with Al Q. I thought only Americans made such rash assumptions. The Hindus and Muslims have been at each others throats there since the year dot.

Until AFP released the bit at the Deccans the Indian authorities had said it was equally likely that either religious group could be responible

Some details of the group here :
http://www.deccanherald.com/CONTENT/Sep152008/scroll2008091590090.asp?section=frontpagenews

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MilesColtrane]

42. What a strange story to cite in a thread about mass murder.

[MaineDem]

46. Indeed

:shrug:

[TheCoxwain]

68. This was the headline right beside the mass murder story

just caught my eye

[Haole Girl]

133. I have alerted on your post.

I find it disgusting that you've chosen this place to post that.

[tekisui]

25. NPR said at least 80 dead, possible Western hostages.

[MinneapolisMatt]

27. CNN just reported

Mumbai's Head Terrorism Chief HIMSELF was killed.

HOLY Shit.

[pork medley]

29. Well, he did kind of drop the ball on this one

he would've been out of a job anyway

[kiranon]

83. May he rest in peace. A little compassion goes a long way when someone dies.

Would you say the same about our troops? Did they drop the ball? I don't think so.

[pork medley]

117. I don't really care either way

But then again I don't have a hard-on for cops and soldiers. Do you?

[Haole Girl]

134. I'm glad you don't post much. (nt)

[Raine1967]

38. Deccan Mujahideen claims it behind Mumbai attacks

- TV

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-36721020081126

An organisation calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen has claimed it was behind attacks in India's financial capital Mumbai that have left at least 80 people dead, television channels reported on Thursday.

The previously unknown or little known group sent an email to news organisations claiming responsibility.

India has suffered a wave of bomb attacks in recent years. Most have been blamed on Islamist militants, although police have also arrested suspected Hindu extremists thought to be behind some of the attacks.

[INDIA]

30. Quick! Somebody equate this to Christian fundamentalists! And HURRY! nt

[nc4bo]

32. A particularly irresponsible pundit was quick to say it sounded like an AQ terrorist attack.

It just squirted right out of his mouth like a runny poo.

Our media should be placed under a gag order. No more "news" "reporting" for those folks.

Ridiculous.

[regnaD kciN]

55. What's so irresponsible about that?

It sure sounds like an al-Qaeda attack to me. And I have zero doubt that this "Deccan Brotherhood" will turn out to have ties to al-Qaeda, if not be a complete offshoot of it.

[dipsydoodle]

61. Don't talk

bollocks without any foundation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. Because it turned out it wasn't Al Qaeda.

So everybody that jumped the gun and blamed Al Qaeda turned out to be fools.

"And I have zero doubt that this "Deccan Brotherhood" will turn out to have ties to al-Qaeda, if not be a complete offshoot of it."

When in doubt, keep digging the hole even deeper, eh?

[INDIA]

95. I never said it was AQ. I did say it was muslim extremists...shocker, I know. nt

[Chulanowa]

101. Doesn't EVERYTHING "sound like" an Al-Qaeda attack?

Bombing? AL QAEDA!
Shooting? AL QAEDA!
Hostages? AL QAEDA!

Al Quaeda; shortening the list of synonyms for "terrorist" since 1993

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. OK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_bazaar_massacre

[xchrom]

34. that poster deserved that. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. No shit.

When you exploit a terrorist attack in a bigoted promotion of the supremacy of your religion, that's the least of what you deserve.

[xchrom]

40. i'm a christian -- and i so, so hate what has happened to the faith.

it's very difficult for me to explain -- but i certainly thank you for pointing out the foolish monstrosity that goes on with christians as well.

[INDIA]

53. I'm not really a Christian anymore. But I am reasonable. And trying to equate the two issues...

is unreasonable...at best. Look upthread. It's DU's typical knee-jerk response to any post on Islamic terrorism. And its aburd. Thus, I called out the abusrdity.

Gee, what do I really deserve? And how is posting my opinion some posters' typical response to such an attack "exploiting" it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. It's a typical freeper's response...

to blame Islam for any given act of terrorism.

And then pretend that Christianity is any better.

"Thus, I called out the abusrdity."

:rofl:

[regnaD kciN]

59. And it's a typical DU response...

...to, any time there's an attack by radical Islamists, to equate it to Christian fundamentalists.

"Wow...al-Qaeda destroyed the WTC and attacked the Pentagon, killing 3,000 civilians. That's just like some fundy Christian setting off a home-made bomb at an abortion clinic in South Bumfuck in the middle of the night when it was empty. No difference at all." :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Generally, Nick, most DUers aren't bigots.

Therefore they won't go around blaming religions for acts of terrorism.

If some freeper wants to bring up muslims killing 3,000 Americans on 9-11, we might bring up the fact that Americans have murdered 1.2 million muslims in Iraq. But only to point out how stupid such religious bigotry is.

You'll notice nobody brought up Christianity until somebody made disparaging marks against Islam.

[INDIA]

62. Uh, I guarantee this was done by muslim extremists. I mean, really?

And Christian fundamentalists are not "good" by any means. Many of them can be bigoted, close minded, and adverse to human rights and the constitution.

But Islamic fundamentalists are racking up a substantial body count around the globe, with today being no exception. Not to mention Sharia law makes the Dominionists look like libertarians.

So yes. Islam has FAR worse, and more dangerous, problems than Christianity. By FAR.

Keep trying though, it's amusing watching people struggle to equate the two.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Oh, it turns out it was.

But for all you knew when you posted in this thread it could have been Christians.

"So yes. Islam has FAR worse, and more dangerous, problems than Christianity. By FAR."

Tell it to the 1.2 million dead muslims in Iraq.

[INDIA]

80. Once again, you struggle to see the difference between a atrocities committed by a secular...

government and religious extremists killing in the name of their religion. THAT is the topic we are discussing in this thread.

For example, Saddam Hussein was a muslim yes? When he attacked Iran and committed atrocities against the Kurds, he was not doing so because of Islam. He was doing so because he was a greedy, power hungry, evil mother fucker. That violence, carried out by a muslim, was not an example of Islamic terrorism. Do you get it yet? Is this sinking in?

Now see George Bush, Christian, invading Iraq for oil and power. Which is a...you guessed it...secular purpose!!!

How many Iraqis have we forcibly converted to Christianity? How many churches have we built? Have we instilled "Christian Law"? Shoved the 10 commandments down the throats of the Iraqi people?

That's what I thought. It was a greed and power motivated invasion, old school. Which means it is outside the bounds of our little conversation on Religious extremists and the attacks they carry out.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. "Now see George Bush, Christian, invading Iraq for oil and power."

Yet Bush claims God told him to do it.

"How many Iraqis have we forcibly converted to Christianity? How many churches have we built? Have we instilled "Christian Law"? Shoved the 10 commandments down the throats of the Iraqi people?"

You could make the same argument about Osama bin Laden, couldn't you?

[INDIA]

88. Link to the Bush quote please? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. ...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

[INDIA]

97. The Palestinian foreign minister said claims that he said that?

I'll take that with a grain of salt. If Bush was some kind of closeted Crusader on a mission from Jesus to invade other countries, do you think he would tell that to a delegation of Palestinians? REALLY? That story smells to high hell.

Not worth much, but the White House denies the story. Could have helped him in the Bible Belt if he did say it though...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/White_House_denies_that_God_told_Bush_to_invade_Iraq

George Bush invaded Iraq for oil and power.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. Palestinians aren't credible, the Bush White House is...

Interesting.

[INDIA]

102. Yes. George Bush revealed his new Crusade plans to a Palestinian

delegation. Makes sense to me!!!! :crazy:

Never said the WH was credible. Far from it. But they are more believable than some no name Palestinian foreign minister.

Use logic and common sense. The story is absurd.

If he was quoted as saying that in front of a bunch of wealthy donors, or Bob Jones University, I might believe it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

273. Do you know the history of Palestine? What was the beginning of the country?

If you don't have the answer to that question, I do. Let me know.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

272. While Iraq was wrong, 9/11 preceded Iraq but do I hear you discussing that? nt

[npk]

145. What the hell are you talking about

Are you saying that Iraqi people killed by American troops is christian fundamentalist killing Muslims. That is so ignorant I don't where to begin. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with Christians killing Muslims. It was ordered by Bush. Regardless of whether Bush is a christian or not is irrelevant. Bush didn't declare war on Iraq in the name of Christianity. Are you trying to say that America is nation of Christians and that what our military does is in affect done of out religious fundamentalism. Come on.

[INDIA]

147. Not to mention the vast majority of dead in Iraq were killed by other muslims. nt

[pampango]

195. One could argue that our invasion created the conditions in which muslims could kill other

muslims.

Of course, one could argue that the Germans created the conditions in WWII for the French to kill large numbers of other French (the same in other European countries they conquered) and the Japanese the same in the Philippines and elsewhere in Asia. Other than targeted killing of collaborators, the resistance in those countries focused on attacking the invaders not on killing large numbers of their fellow conquered citizens.

[Vegasaurus]

198. The US and other Western nations are not responsible for Muslims killing each other

They have massive internal problems, as they have had for thousands of years, which would exist whether or not there was Western involvement or not.

[pampango]

201. That was the point is was trying (ineffectively) to make by comparing Muslim internecine

killing to the lack of same with the French and Filipinos under similar circumstances. :)

[Vegasaurus]

206. The French aren't out suicide bombing innocents, are they?

or blowing each other up, last I checked.

[pampango]

210. I must be having a bad day posting coherently. Your post is consistent with what I meant

to say. Not only are the French not suicide bombing innocents now, they didn't do it during WWII.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

271. I agree that it was wrong to attack Iraq - Saudi Arabia should've been attacked instead nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

269. I agree, it is far worse than Christianity, but you will find apologists for

anything Islamics wish to do on here quickly coming to the defense of Islam and reporting anyone that so much as says boo in protest.

[cali]

107. really? Then you won't have any problem listing the

attacks by Christian Fundamenalist and radicals that have taken place in the last 10 years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. Well, I couldn't possibly list all of them cali.

But off the top of my head...

There's the shooting of Dr. Slepian in 1998.

The bombing death in Birmingham in 1998.

The abortion clinic arsons in 1999 and two in 2000.

The Tacoma abortion clinic bombing in 2001.

The guy who drove his car through an abortion clinic in 2006.

The failed abortion clinic bombing in 2007.

The anthrax attacks which likely came from a Christian.

Several abortion deaths in Canada within the last ten years.

The Olympics bombing was in 1996, so I guess that doesn't count.

The shooting of Sikh clerks after 9-11.

Ethnic cleansing during the Kosovo war.

The murder of Matthew Shepard.

The stonings of "witches" in Africa.

Massacres of Ugandans and sex slavery by the Lord's Resistance Army

And so on and so forth.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

118. Goodbye, baseball!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. I mean, c'mon.

The Christian "Lords Resistance Army" has killed more people than Hama, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda combined.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

127. Ya didn't even have to pull the Crusades card out. Or

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. If somebody is even in the position to require the "crusades card"

in order to fight bigotry, well then they've already won the argument.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

274. Your quips and quotes aren't providing actual data of anything nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

270. Not exactly. This isn't a fairy tale. It is Islamics carrying on a war against the West nt

[INDIA]

49. Imperial British = Religious fundamentalists? Sorry, try again.

What I was alluding to is DU's never ending quest to equate a very real and dangerous problem of Islamic extremists with Christian fundamentalists here in the United States. It's absurd. But "fundies" vote Republican, so let's just throw all reason and logic out the window right?

And yes, yes I know. Crusades from 500 years ago, abortion clinic bombings, Matthew Sheppard, etc etc. Same thing of course. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's OK whent Christians do it.

Heard it all before.

[INDIA]

57. No, it's not ok when Christian terrorists kill people in the name of their religion.

And that's not at all what happened in the link you posted. The two situations are not analogous by any reasonable standard. As I said before, try again.

Do you not understand the difference between imperial country with secular goals (greed and power)committing atrocities and religious extremists killing in the name of their religion?

They're two different situations entirely. Yet you and other DU'ers desperately try to equate them in a haphazard attempt to protect your skewed world view.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Hey, I've got something I've been meaning to ask you...

what are your thoughts on President Barack Hussein Obama?

[INDIA]

90. Voted for him proudly. And I will continue to support him long after

DU's far left wackos start claiming he's a right wing hawk neo-con. Oops, that's already happening.

I'll be in DC for the inaguration. Will you be there? We should have a beer!! :rofl:

[valerief]

36. You mean the people who bomb abortion clinics? nt

[INDIA]

45. Around a dozen or so people have died in abortion clinic bombings...ever. Ever.

What you wrote was EXACTLY the type of DU ridiculousness I was alluding to in my post.

Trying to compare Christian fundamentalist and Muslim extremists is absurd. And it happens every time somebody posts a story about some sort of terrorist attack. Without fail. I just beat you to the punch this time.

[ulysses]

48. Christian extremists aren't the same because they're less efficient?

Please.

[cali]

110. when was the last abortion clinic bombing?

seriously, this is getting ridiculous here. this is about facts. of course violence by christian extremists is terrible, but the FACTS are that in scale and scope, attacks by Islamic extremists are in a whole other league, at this particular moment in history. That's not bigotry. It's not a slam on Islam. It's simply a factual statement.

[ulysses]

113. don't you suspect that that has more to do

with the greater likelihood that violent fundamentalists will be prosecuted here than they might be elsewhere?

[cali]

122. I think it has more to do with the age of the respective

religions. And the U.S. is hardly the only Christian majority country. Furthermore there are no countries where Christianity is fused directly into governance. There are quite a few Islamic countries where that is the case.

[azurnoir]

225. The respective has what to do with this?

given the date for the beginnings of Islam as roughly 600 CE then that would make Islam about 1400 years old let's see I believe the 1400's were Christianities "golden age" what with every hereditary monarch in Europe beholden to the Vatican and a few crusades under the belt, not to mention a few witch hunts and inquisitions to "clean up" unbelievers.......yes a golden age indeed, but one just can not view Islam from that same context can one?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. In the U.S.?

Last year.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. And then there are day care bombings.

[AlanAdam]

60. Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were both Christians.

And were both members of the Christian Fundamentalist group The Michigan Militia.

[AlanAdam]

82. See link below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jun/11/mcveigh.usa4

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. Yes, I'm familiar with the Guardian article.

Nevertheless, McVeigh was raised a Catholic, ran with loony Christian fundamentalists, and was a practicing Catholic during his prison sentence.

Perhaps you should take McVeigh's claims witha grain of salt.

[INDIA]

72. McVeigh blew up the Fed Bldg because of his religion? REALLY? LINK??? LOL!

You're really off your game tonight Bornagin. This is kinda sad. :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Tim McVeigh is to Christianity what Osama bin Laden is to Islam.

:shrug:

The standard boiler plate from McVeigh's Michigan Militia involved the standard fundamentalist Christian propaganda about "restoring" Christianity to the government, and so on.

[INDIA]

86. Bullshit. Total bullshit. You're just lying now.

Osama Bin Laden got his START as an international asshole because he was offended that infidels (US troops) were in the Muslim holy land of Saudi Arabia. His entire being is premised on his perverted strain of ISLAM. He is a terrorist killing in the name of his religion, just listen to one of his "greatest hits" tapes. Every other sentence is "jihad this", "allah that" or "martyr what".

I dare you to find me any evidence that McVeigh blew up that building with even a scintilla of religion as motivation. Go for it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. You're describing a secular motivation to his terrorism.

bin Laden wanted the U.S. government out of his homeland.

McVeigh wanted the same thing.

[INDIA]

98. He wanted "infidels", non-muslims, out of his homeland.

That was the motivation. It's well documented.

Where's that McVeigh link? I'm waiting.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. Here you go...

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/militia_m.asp?xpicked=4&item=19

[INDIA]

109. "Ideology: Anti-government and conspiracy-oriented in nature; prominent focus on firearms"

Thanks, that pretty accurately sums up the militia movement.

Where is the part about Timothy McVeigh blowing up the Fed Bldg. because of his extremist Christian views? Because that's what, you know, you claimed earlier in this thread.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. I guess you missed the bit about the Christian Identity movement?

That's some pair of blinders you have.

[INDIA]

141. 1) How many people have the Xtian ID movement killed? 2) Was McVeigh a member of that group?

None, and no. Seriesly tho, try again.

[ohio2007]

144. what is the phrase ? cognitive dissonance , or some attempt to xng the subject using the "X" factor

Xtian fundie factor diversion.

people will want to submit to protecting the rights of the minority non Xtian fundies rights.

Can't wait until Pat Condell sounds off on the current Bombay bombing event
LOL

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Pat+Condell&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&um=1&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[regnaD kciN]

69. Who died and made you Leader of the Purge?

Christians have done horrible things in the name of their religion. Jews have done horrible things in the name of their religion. Muslims have done horrible things in the name of their religion. The same can be said for Hindus, Buddhists, Shintos, etc, etc.

BUT...at this point in world history, no one except Muslims seem to have a large contingent of believers who apparently think it's a religious duty to indiscriminately kill huge numbers of innocent civilians in order to achieve their goals.

And, if acknowledging that fact is enough to make one a "Freeper" in the eyes of the blame-Christians-for-everything brigade here at DU, then maybe it's time for "Freeper" to become a badge of honor.

:nuke:

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

79. BUT...at this point.....presumably

you've never heard about the IRA bombings on mainland UK And where did they get their funding from ? The answer is the American Irish until 9/11 when Bush was suffuciently embarrassed to declare the IRA a terrorist organisation.

[happyslug]

129. Present day suicide bombers started as a BUDDHIST attack

Short history of Suicide attacks, starting with Vietnam, but show that the recent push started in Sri Lanka (Ceylon for those old folks like me who first learn about that island under that name):
http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Hayden_072905,00.html

Recent stories about Buddhist Suicide Bombers:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-6602141.html
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7868

Religion is used by people more as a excuse then reason, the recent growth in Islamic Suicide Bombers seem tied in with a general decline in their standard of living. Prior to the recent increase in price of oil, many Muslims even in Arabia, show a decline in their Standard of living. The recent price increase seems NOT to have lead to any raise in income to the lower half of the economic divide, thus the decline in living standards have increased even further. Furthermore most Suicide bombers have NOT come from oil producing nations, but other islamic countries, for example Pakistan, the West Bank, Gaza and other non-oil rich areas and countries. All of these areas and country have seen even further decline in their standard of living and are where most of the Suicide bombers are from. My point is religion is used as a rationale but the real reason seem to be the huge decline in the income of the groups producing these suicide bombers.

[Vegasaurus]

266. Many suicide bombers (including Atta on 90/11)

were middle class and educated.

They were not poor and oppressed.

That argument about suicide bombers doesn't hold water.

It is ideological, not economic, and does have religion as a backdrop.

[MisterP]

148. hmmm, don't tell the Tamils n/t

[INDIA]

93. LOL! Go stick your head back in the sand!

You already have your opinion? Why let facts, history, and statistics ruin that for you right?

[KnaveRupe]

66. Because the I.R.A. and the U.F.F. weren't Xtian at all.

Those weren't Catholics or Protestants blowing up civilians in Northern Ireland for all of those years - those were Irish Sunnis and Shia!

Furthermore, the only reason the Klan burn crosses is because Stars of David are too tricky to build and get the angles right. It has nothing to do with the religion of all those Klansmen - they're all Zen Buddhists, aren't they?

Jesus freakin' H. Christ. THAT was your FIRST response to news of this tragedy? "I better make some dipshit comment before one of those nasty DU people compares Xtians and Muslims?"

You're out of your freakin' mind.

Didn't some Jew make a comment once about optical motes and beams?

[BoneDaddy]

207. Thanks for the post

I loved the sarcasm. DU members are often so ready to attack Christian fundamentalists and ignore islamic terrorism or attempt to justify it. I do not disagree that the mindset of both is similar but they really are apples and oranges when comparing the expressions of violence.

[Raine1967]

37. The Taj Hotel is burning

India TV is reporting that 5 explosions have occurred there... All colleges and Schools are closed tomorrow... Untold people are dead. The terrorists have hijacked a police car...

There is a hospital that may have hostages inside. You can Live stream here: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php

This is very very bad.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Troops moving into at least one of the hotels, according to BBC

on their news ticker and the TV news.

[Raschel]

41. I'm sure the news will be much worse than what we're hearing now.

What sick, sick people.

[cosmicone]

78. US support of Pakistan MUST stop

Pakistan is behind all these shenanigans and we keep supporting it economically and militarily.

All non-palestinian related terrorism has its roots in Pakistan and it is a travesty when our taxpayer dollars are used by Pakistan to support terrorism in India and other parts of the world.

[muriel_volestrangler]

94. Wow - there's a broad brush for you

Only 2 sources of terrorism in the whole world, you claim - Palestine and Pakistan? Not even the Bush admin is that simplistic.

Just Google 'terrorism'. You'll learn something.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. Seems to be a lot of that going on in this thread.

:rofl:

[cosmicone]

152. I meant Islamic terrorism

not the Peruvian or Basque or IRA.

Pakistan has been training terrorists from Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya, Dagestan, Al Sayyaf in Philippines, Xin Jiang, Kashmir, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia.

Is that good enough for you?

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. No, that's still very inaccurate

there's been a hell of a lot of Islamist terrorism in Algeria, for instance. And plenty in Egypt.

[Posteritatis]

116. Skullshattering cluelessness MUST stop

The Japanese Red Army was Pakistani?

The Tamil Tigers are Pakistani?

ETA is Pakistani?

The Irish Republican Army is Pakistani?

The United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia were Pakistani?

Yeeeeeah.

Clue-by-four, aisle twelve; clue-by-four, aisle twelve...

[cosmicone]

154. They are not Islamic terrorists

ALL non-palestinian islamic terrorists are trained, funded and encouraged by Pakistan.

Pakistan is an international problem and it needs to be crushed, balkanized into little countries or there will never be peace.

[varun]

164. I wont be surprised if ISI is involved in this

also LeT (Lashkar e Taiba) - a Pakistan based group is very likely involved.

[smitty]

43. All we can do is watch the explosions and chaos on TV. After a

while it becomes a sick form of entertainment.

[melissinha]

44. can we bump this to top?

This is serious... and the limited comment from State Department concerns me...

[Eugene]

47. Reuters: Four gunmen killed, nine arrested - Mumbai police

Source: Reuters

Four gunmen killed, nine arrested - Mumbai police
26 Nov 2008 22:59:53 GMT
Source: Reuters
NEW DELHI, Nov 27 (Reuters) - Four gunmen were
killed by police and nine suspected terrorists
were arrested after a series of attacks in Mumbai,
police said on Thursday.

"We have shot dead four terrorists and managed to
arrest nine suspected terrorists," P.D. Ghadge,
a police officer at Mumbai's central control room,
told Reuters. (Reporting by Bappa Majumdar;
Editing by Alistair Scrutton)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP308097.htm

[zazen]

56. this is where the Dershowitz/neocon ticking time bomb argument about torture comes up

I don't agree with it, but what's amazing to me is that when you compare the urgency of this situation to hapless taxicab drivers held for five years who somehow need to be tortured to get info out of them, the latter seems even more (if possible) sadistic and gratuitous.

I have to ask myself, is my opposition to torture and police brutality genuine if a part of me wants them to beat these mo-f*ckers to a pulp to find out where other bombs and killers are and to help release the hostages? Truth is, I'm opposed because I don't think it'd work, but if I thought it would work, would I really be against it? If I were on the ground and saw the dead bodies, would I be against it? Would I be against it if I knew for sure these were the perpetrators and not innocent bystanders swept up by police?

[BootinUp]

65. This is the exception

that Bill Clinton discussed, the government cannot make it law, it is up to people on the ground to make decisions when faced with life or death and to know that they will be judged on their actions later.

[BootinUp]

58. This is really bad, 78 dead source CNN

[IndianaGreen]

64. This shit ain't over

As I post here, the BBC is reporting hearing explosions from the Overoi hotel, and the police is reporting 3 hostage situations in the city.

[hardtravelin]

74. And in the midst of this moral relativism,

only about half a dozen posts expressing sympathy for the victims. Some people are blinded by ideology, it would seem.

I hope this ends with a minimum of death and suffering.

[BootinUp]

81. I think thats unfair.

I just read the headline minutes ago. People are trying to see what is happening.

[hardtravelin]

136. Point Taken.

I'm kinda new here, I just looked at the arguments going back and forth and it seemed a little petty to me in light of the events.

It seems they were Muslims, but some would hold that up as giving a free pass to Christian mis-deeds, as well.

All can agree that this does not look good in India.

[Ex Lurker]

87. yes, that's one of the things that disturbs me about DU n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. The number of posts expressing sympathy isn't a measure of how sympathetic we are

I take it as read that people are sympathetic in an event like this. When someone actually posts they have some link, people do tend to say something to them personally (as they did above), but it's not as if this is an embassy book of condolence addressed to the people of Mumbai.

[totodeinhere]

126. I think it's a given that we all have sympathy for the innocent victims. But...

that doesn't mean that the discussion should stop there. The topic of terrorism is a complex one and there is a lot to talk about on this subject.

[regnaD kciN]

75. BULLETIN: White House releases statement...

The United States condemns these attacks in the strongest possible terms.

President Bush has released the following statement:

"To the Deccan Mujahideen:

What's wrong with you idiots? Don't you know the western calendar? You were supposed to stage these attacks on October 26th. October! Not November! Before the election! That was our arrange...uh...never mind."

No further questions.

:sarcasm:

[varun]

76. Obama has his work cut out for him in South Asia

As long as India-Pakistan are rivals, these attacks will continue. Particularly because ISI (from Pakistan) actively supports Islamic terror groups in India.

[RollWithIt]

96. Hundreds dead....

According to BBC Radio, just heard it.

[Muttocracy]

103. BBC ticker says Indian police have killed 4 attackers, arrested 9 others

home page, no link.

[Kajsa]

104. This is horrible!

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

:(

[Muttocracy]

105. MSNBC live watching link:

http://www.tvpc.com/Channel.php?ChannelID=1522

click change channel, pick MSNBC. Commercial right now but says they're coming back with more on India.

[Muttocracy]

108. eyewitness reports on BBC site (warning graphic video and photos)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7751423.stm

[phrenzy]

111. Extremists...

Ok, can we just be real here for one second?

Throughout history religious nuts have pulled shit like this left and right. Sacking cities, killing non-believers, doing all sorts of terrorism and torture in the name of advancing or protecting their religion. It has happened throughout history.

NOW - If we are honest - the current uprising IS in FACT among a small group of fanatical muslims. They are the current leaders at this date in terms of killing for specifically, openly and solely religious reasons. It is a role that extremists of many religions have played at different points in history.

Right now, militancy is more common within Islam (and not always without reason)

What do we do with that information? That's the question. We don't start overreacting (like invading Iraq) or rounding up and giving dirty looks to anybody who happens to be Muslim.

BUT we also don't get anywhere by constantly saying "Yeah, but the Christians did THIS! And America did THAT!..." because the truth of the matter, with modern radical Islam, there is NO current parallel.

Stop calling people freepers just for acknowledging a frightening trend that must be discussed openly and honestly in order for us to find a way out of this current conflict. Stop talking about some unrelated (but real) problem just because a problem you don't like discussing comes up.

[Ex Lurker]

168. Well said n/t

[pork medley]

114. Islamists making the metropoles business-hostile, Naxalites making the countryside unmanageable...

Looks like the Indian government has their work cut out for them for the foreseeable future...

[varun]

119. India has been battling Islamic fundies for centuries

its only now that west is noticing this...because it is in their interest to stop this..

10 years ago, no one cared

[oneruncanwinagame]

124. I Care

They are hitting me to my very core. Indian father. British mother. Citizens of the US of A.

Have you seen the rail station pictures? They can suck my 10 inch Punjabi C**k. I want these bastards to pay in spades until their family name ceases within 25 days max. That's a period at the end of the last sentence.

[pork medley]

146. Only India the nation-state is hardly 60 years old???

[progressive_realist]

156. Um...poor student of history?

India was mostly under Islamic rule for centuries before the British took over. And was not a unified nation before that. So no, India has not been battling Islamic fundies for centuries.

[varun]

159. India was a nation for at least a thousand years before Islam

came to India

Google : Maurya dynasty
Google: Gupta dynasty

India was known as "Bharat" (Indians still call it by that name), and it stretched from Afghanistan to Burma (at its peak it stretched to Indo-China).

[progressive_realist]

170. I'm quite familiar with the history going back to the dawn of civilization.

Both of those empires pre-date the start of Islam. There was never a time between the introduction of Islam into the world and the creation of the modern state that India was united under non-Islamic and non-British rule. But that is really a side issue.

More importantly, perhaps, since Islamic fundamentalism had its birth around the 18th century CE, the struggle against it anywhere is a fairly new one. The earliest references I can find to Islamic fundamentalism in India date to the early-mid 19th century, which makes it a little less than two centuries ago. The various fundamentalisms afflicting the world now are much newer than the religions they sprang from. That was the point I was trying to make -- this is not an ancient struggle.

[varun]

199. Hindus in India were not at peace with their muslim kings

Read about Shivaji.

Read about the Rajputs.

And what the muslims did in ancient India is worse than the Jihad and fundamentalism you're seeing today. Forcibly converting people, massacring innocent women and children, pouring molten lead into the ears of their subjects...

Read about Ghauri, Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb.

Then tell me that India has not been a victim of Islamic "fundamentalism".

The crusades will look tame compared to the Islamic rule over India.

[JI7]

216. most people in ancient times did stupid things

people did stupid things just 50 years ago.

[smitra]

237. That fact...

That people did 'stupid things' just 50 years ago does not in any way condone, explain or excuse what post #199 says.

Feelings about centuries of persecution run very deep. Somehow, the resentment that many in the Middle East bear about the Crusades is known, and understood, but the history of Hindu persecution in India is either not know, or not appreciated, and is not in anybody's 'thoughts' when considering the historical background of many contemporary events.

Read some of the works by a couple of Frenchmen, Francois Gauthier and Claude Arpi.

[JI7]

243. Hindus had/have some horrible practices that Muslims did not support

such as the wife burning herself to death if her husband died.

the fact is that Muslim rule in india was no so bad, especially compared to those times. things did get worse which allowed for the British to take over.

the crusades were worse but even there i think it's stupid when muslims bring it up anytime someone criticizes what their religion is doing now.

there are hindus today who are terrorizing muslims everyday.

[varun]

258. Sati and Jauhar

The practice of the wife burning herself to death on her husband's funeral pyre: was started by Rajput women who did not wish to be captured by the marauding Islamic hordes when their husbands were defeated in the wars.

And this practice was abolished by Hindus (Raja Rammohan Roy). Muslims did not do anything to stop it.

They were the reason for its start.

[liberalpragmatist]

254. Gautier?!

Gautier is an extreme right-wing tool. He's a correspondent for France's conservative Le Figaro newspaper and is extremely Islamophobic.

He has justified Gandhi's assassination, the tearing-down of the Godhra mosque, has claimed there was a giant hindu holocaust (which virtually NO reputable historian agrees with) and has essentially dismissed the idea that muslims have contributed anything to indian society. He approved the destruction of the godhra mosque and the violence that followed and claimed it showed hindus were "showing strength" and "would no longer be pushed around."

He's a favorite of the VHP and the RSS.

There were plenty of atrocities committed by Muslim rulers. But there were plenty of atrocities by Hindu rulers as well. History is messy, with lots of wars and atrocities from all parties. And Muslims also contributed greatly to Indian culture, in art, in music, in architecture. You can't generalize Islamic History in India to a series of atrocities.

I agree that the wounds from history in India go very deep. However, I'd argue their roots are more recent -- partition, and the violence associated with that, are the cause of most modern tension, not the period of Islamic Rule in India (Indians never tire of showing off the Taj Mahal, for example or Red Fort, for example).

[varun]

256. Many Hindu structures were destroyed by the muslims

the famous Qutab Minar in Delhi was built from the remains of a Hindu structure...one can still see the headless Hindu sculptures. Somnath, Dwarka...amazing temples were razed to the ground. So Northern India can only show off Taj Mahal. Go to Southern India to see some beautiful ancient Indian architecture.

What you are doing by categorizing someone as extreme right wing is not a good way to discuss this issue. There are deep divisions among Indian historians, and both sides have valid viewpoints.

Some historians have estimated that the Hindu population decreased by 80 million during the muslim conquests. This is disputable, but Timur himself has written that he killed hundreds of thousands of infidels (Hindus) in Delhi in one day...

[liberalpragmatist]

260. Gautier is not a reliable source

What I am saying about Indian history can be summed up:

* Yes, there were many brutal Muslim rulers -- Mahmud of Ghazni and esp. Timurlane were two of them. (Although, it should be said that Mahmud of Ghazni -- who was responsible for the destruction of hundreds of major temples and widespread looting -- also relied on Hindu rulers as his vassals and his armies were largely composed of Hindus as well.)

* The demographic figures have been challenged by most mainstream historians -- nobody except right-wing VHP types claim anything like the Holocaust Gautier writes about.

* Lastly, Gautier is an awful source. He is a fringe historian who is a darling of the RSS and the VHP. Here are just a few of his *better* moments:

We see the Gujarat riots through the eyes of the Western press and the Indian Media: "Hindu fundamentalists who went on the rampage", etc. But what if Gujarat was the first sign that good, peaceful, non-violent, middle-class and even lower-class Hindus have had it and that they are tired of being made fun of, attacked, bombed, burnt, killed, their women raped, their temples destroyed? What if, rightly or wrongly, it is the portent of things to come, that the next time innocent Hindu women and children are targeted, Hindus might be tempted to take an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, the way Israel does at the official level?

On AIDS:

When I see Mr Bill Gates coming to give charity to the poor and ignorant Indians, who do not know how to handle sex and are on the way to becoming the largest AIDS
reservoir in the world, I wonder: Do Indians really believe in what the White man says? Do they need a White man to tell them what to do and what not to do? Actually the funny thing is that this AIDS scare is an old trick of hostile NGOs, Christian organisations and the enemies of India. It is true that AIDS is the scourge of the 21st century, the great black plague of our era. But more is being made of it than is necessary, especially in the Indian context.

World health organisations are fond of saying that India has the largest population of HIV contaminated cases - some even speak about 25 millions by 2010. But as every one knows, AIDS spreads through three agents: Homosexuality, hypodermic syringes of drug addicts and prostitutes. Yet, whatever Deepa Mehta or Shabana Azmi would like us to believe, homosexuality is not very
common in India's villages, which comprise 80 per cent of the population; one-sided homosexuality is a Western phenomenon and it is brought to India by Westernised Indians.

As for hard drug addiction, again it is not all that common in Indian villages, except in some of the North-East border states, many of which incidentally happen to be Christian. The prostitutes carry the greatest threat of spreading the disease, particularly in big cities like Mumbai. Then in turn, those men who have contacted it will bring it to the villages, when they have intercourse with their wives. But 25 million AIDS cases?

He's a right-wing nutjob with an axe to grind and ties to the VHP and the RSS.

Sorry, Varun, but as a Hindu I consider the Hindutva movement to be utterly vile.

[liberalpragmatist]

249. Yes -- there was also Akbar, Babur and Tipu Sultan

There were plenty of vicious Muslim invasions -- but often those invasions were themselves targeting Islamic-ruled states, and Hindu rulers were often no less brutal in their own dynastic wars.

You're right that Mahmud of Ghazni and Tamurlane, in particular, were awful.

But many of the claims that right-wing Hindus often repeat are highly dubious -- there's no evidence of a Hindu "holocaust" as lots of Hindutva apologists like to claim. The vast majority of wars in the Indian subcontinent were political in nature -- and most of the "Islamic" armies of the various Muslim kings were composed of Hindus.

People like Akbar, Babur and Jehangir were exceptionally tolerant, and the cultural contributions they made to India was immense.

The relationship between Islam and India is complex and multifaceted. There have been sorry episodes, and glowing episodes.

[varun]

252. We can play the blame game all we want

but the proof is in the pudding.

Indian was partitioned because Hindus and Muslims could not live together peacefully.

[liberalpragmatist]

253. So what do you propose?

so what do you propose, then? wipe them out? do you reject that the overwhelming majority of average indian muslims can be loyal indian citizens? do you think that claims of discrimination or anti-muslim events like the Gujurat riots are somehow their fault?

[varun]

257. Dismantle Pakistan

Divide it into four countries.

Take away its nukes

That will reduce the problem of terrorism not only in India, but around the world.

[liberalpragmatist]

261. Don't you think most Pakistanis might have a problem with that?

... separatists notwithstanding?

And I have a hard-time believing that an independent Pashtunistan, an independent Baluchistan, an independent Pakistani Punjab and in independent Sindh wouldn't be even weaker, even more unstable and even more threatening in terms of terrorism.

[varun]

262. Then what would you suggest?

Just be a sitting duck and take these terrorist attacks like a lamb going to slaughter?

[ohio2007]

265. "feed the gator...

in hopes he eats you last."

Wasn't that Churchill's definition of appeasement ?

Al-Qaida No. 2 to US: Overcome meltdown with Islam

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) — Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader appeared in a new video posted Friday calling on Americans to embrace Islam to overcome the financial meltdown, which he said was a consequence of the Sept. 11 attacks and militant strikes in Iraq and Afghanistan.


snip
Zawahri then called on the American people to "embrace Islam to live a life free of greed, exploitation and forbidden wealth."

He also dared President George W. Bush to increase the number of troops in Afghanistan and the region.

"I tell Bush: the dogs of Afghanistan have yet to eat their fill of the flesh of the Americans," Zawahri said. "I challenge you, if you're really a man, to send the entire American army to Pakistan and the tribal regions.Zawahri's new tape came about a week after his last message, which he used to accuse U.S. President-elect Barack Obama of turning his back on his black heritage to gain power.

snip

Discussing Iraq, Zawahri said that U.S. gains are temporary. He also stressed that that Sunni Awakening Councils — former insurgents who have revolted against al-Qaida — will not be accepted by the Shiite majority government.

Zawahri spoke out against charges al-Qaida has killed innocent civilians, calling the reports Western propaganda.

Zawahri, an Egyptian, also took aim at Egypt's government, blaming it for the blockade of the Gaza Strip
-called on Egyptian students and workers to stage a general strike to demand the lifting of the siege on Gaza.


snip
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZ3r4ZNMqNVN6y01lkhN39zrKvHgD94NTL981

they hate humor don't they ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPZBl24E4D0&eurl=http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/&feature=player_embedded

[ohio2007]

264. minority rules will split the country up as they already operate parallel governments

media bends over backwards ignoring the civil war.




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4214926.ece

Old news?
not really if you consider the Deja Vu factor from planned future 'talks'
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/world/asia/26pstan.html?_r=1

And I have a hard-time believing that an independent Pashtunistan, an independent Baluchistan, an independent Pakistani Punjab and in independent Sindh wouldn't be even weaker, even more unstable and even more threatening in terms of terrorism.

[UndertheOcean]

121. Appalling .....crazy extremist nuts , if there was an easy way to neutralize them

[Blue_Tires]

123. very tragic news during a time when many of us are celebrating our families

this seems to have taken a lot of planning, coordination, manpower and money...and there will be that much less religious harmony in the world

[KeepItReal]

125. The local Anti-terror squad chief was killed trying to intervene

"The Maharashtra Anti Terrorism Squad's chief Hemant Karkare was gunned down when he was leading an operation at Mumbai's Taj Hotel against terrorists on Wednesday. He was hit by three bullets in his chest.

Karkare (54) was gunned down when he was leading an operation at Hotel Taj against terrorists who had taken 15 people, including seven foreigners, as hostages. He was hit by three bullets in his chest."

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080074240

:-(

[muriel_volestrangler]

130. Leading from the front. That's a tragedy

:(

[oneruncanwinagame]

131. Yes

Another reason why these guys will pay in spades. This will hurt their movement in the East big time and among anyone of their influence. I haven't felt this hawkish since the days after 911 so maybe I don't have the best perspective. Nevertheless, there might now be an Eastern front to the hellhole terrorist haven that is A/P. Dillitantes most likely. They will pay.

[ohio2007]

132. hostages still being held at the womens and childrens hospital

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php

Local live coverage in English of course

[mainer]

135. Cowards targeting women and children.

Why else choose a hospital with the most vulnerable patients?

[ohio2007]

138. MSM seems to be downplaying the hospital and prefer "targeting" the five start hotels

Which actually protects the women and children if the mujahidin can't see themselves waiving guns on CNN-India.
Nobody missed the 3am call in Mumbai.

[Xenotime]

263. The RW media just wants to make sure they have a room there..

When they come to visit.

[Deep13]

139. Are we still pretending this is not about religion?

What the world needs now is not accommodation and coexistence but rather to think more and believe less. You cannot coexist with someone who believes god wants him to kill you.

[ohio2007]

151. coexist ? well, hows this

Medea and I (CODEPINK co-founders) are spending the week in Iran on a citizen’s diplomacy visit,

engaging with Iranian women’s groups and officials to build bridges and create peace from the ground up.
http://codepinkdc.blogspot.com/

watch out for the bloggers comment section, pretty point blank. imo Why?

Iran Executes Man in Spy Case, and Blogger’s Arrest Is Reported


Mr. Derakhshan, an Iranian-Canadian, had lived in Canada since 2000 but moved back to Tehran a few weeks ago. He traveled to Israel in 2007 and wrote about it on his blog.
Abraham Rabinovich, an Israeli journalist who interviewed Mr. Derakhshan in Jerusalem two years ago, described him in an op-ed article for The International Herald Tribune on Friday as an “Iranian patriot” who through his blog “offered the first views of ordinary life in Israel that Iranians had been able to see.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3614111#3614679

?

good luck with that

[Deep13]

226. Moderates who oppose violence...

...are selectively interpreting Islam. And by saying religion itself cannot be criticized are enabling the problem. If one believes the Koran (or the Bible for that matter) is the factual word of god, then violence is a logical consequence of that. The positive things you mention are because those participating do not believe in their religion very strongly and are willing to allow humanitarian considerations to override doctrinal ones.

[Hatalles]

240. Judge, Jury, and Executioner

Now, let us consider for a moment what would happen if there was some truth to the Islamic/Osamaist monolith. If a violent and oppressive reading of Islam is the only true interpretation of Islam, then what of all those Muslims who believe in and practice an Islam different than the Osamaist brand? Using the logic of an Islamophobe, one must reason that these "Muslims" are only nominal Muslims, and that the only real Muslims are Osamaists. If Islam is inherently an "evil" religion, then there can be no "good" Muslims because any "good" Muslim cannot be classified as a real Muslim at all. This is the problem we are confronted with when operating within the Islamophobe's self-constructed framework. In this world, not unlike the world of the Osamaist, the Islamophobe acts as judge, jury, and executioner—dictating what Islam is and what Islam is not, who is Muslim and who is not.

http://world.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/33816

[ohio2007]

242. aka; " in the name of god"

thats the wahabi influence from the oil rich kingdom land of the proft.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3537624.cms

[Deep13]

251. guilty.

First of all, the logic is bullshit. First, my criticism is directed toward Islam itself and not at Muslims who are people who believe in Islam. When I call Christianity a brutal and evil religion, it does not mean I think all or even most Christians are brutal or evil. Nevertheless, the deference they insist on and their support of their religion generally enables the abuses of the Vatican and put an Evangelical in the White House (Bush) with all that entailed. I am not suggesting all Muslims are guilty of terrorism. Nevertheless, their support of their religion and the deference they insist they are entitled to enables the jihadists.

"dictating what Islam is and what Islam is not"

Hey, I'm just reading their book. It says what it says. And their clerics say what they say. They have no problem dictating what Islam is and is not. In the West, a Muslim may pick and choose which parts of the Koran to obey. In the Middle East, conformity is enforced by law. People there are subjected to horrific penalties-especially women-for harmless activities that offend religion. Islamic governments feel free to issue death sentences to foreigners who offend Islam in some way.

If terrorism, misogyny, censorship and aggression are not part of Islamic doctrine, then where are the Islamic governments' efforts to stop them. Where are the Iranian, Pakistani and Saudi clerics who are telling the world that jihad is only a personal, internal struggle? Why aren't Islamic judges declaring that stoning rape victims is against the Koran? There aren't any because it isn't.

The simple and undeniable fact is that god did not dictate his word to an illiterate peasant. If he did, he owes the writers of the Bible a lot of footnotes. And if it is the inerrant and final word of god, why is there disagreement over its meaning at all? The reason is, of course, because the humanity of some believers, especially in the West where they are free to do so, causes them to reject the most barbaric parts of it. Christians and Jews do the same thing. Some ideas are better than others. If it were not for the artificial and undeserved deference we give to religion, it would be obvious that Christianity and Islam are two of the worst ideas ever conceived.

[Haole Girl]

143. Taj hotel still on fire

CNN showing live reports of a new fire they are trying to put out. Now the Indian gov't saying the situation is "under control."

[2QT2BSTR8]

149. The United States is with you Mumbai! This is an absolute tragedy, and we send you our prayers!

[2QT2BSTR8]

150. The United States is with you Mumbai! This is an absolute tragedy, and we send you our prayers!

[ohio2007]

153. Mumbai shootings: Reaction in quotes

There has been widespread international condemnation of the series of shootings across the Indian city of Mumbai in which at least 80 people have been killed and many more injured.

GORDON BROWN, UK PRIME MINISTER.....



WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY DANA PERINO ......



BROOKE ANDERSON, US CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY SPOKESMAN.....



SPOKESMAN FOR BAN KI-MOON, UN SECRETARY GENERAL......
..

snip
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7751507.stm

I expect a strongly worded comment from the UN.Will it be a unanimous vote ?

then again.
Ya think this will be one of those times again when al Jazeera locks their comment section on articles about Mumbai ?

They've locked comment sections before ;)

[Mari333]

155. wickepedia already has a lot of information up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/26_November_2008_Mumbai_attacks

[uppityperson]

157. Good article, link...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5240992.ece

[RFKHumphreyObama]

158. My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Mumbai

May the savage barbarian cowards who did this be brought to justice and shown no mercy

[liberaltrucker]

160. Flame if you must, but I like many Americans am in crisis overload

I'm more concerned with providing for my family at the present time.

Yes, it's tragic when folks overseas decide to pull this kind of shit.
At another time, I would have cared. Not now, though. I have family
economic problems to consider. Sorry, World, when the crap hits the fan, my
concern is bounded by my property line and my Nation's boundaries.

Other Countries? For now YOYO-You're on your own. Sorry.

[uppityperson]

165. I am sure you know that they singled out USAnians and Brits to pull aside. Right?

Probably no one related to you though, so who cares. Right?

[fujiyama]

166. Ignorance is your option

but shit flows around nowadays.

BTW, your attitude is pretty disgusting.

[AZBlue]

167. That's pretty pathetic.

If you don't think this affects us in any way, you've got a lot to learn. And that's a disgusting attitude toward others. I too am struggling horribly right now, but I still care about others and realize that your kind of US-only attitude is self-defeating and ignorant.

[JDwho]

161. 100 dead, 200 injured...10 different sites of terror

WTH is going on with this world. They are saying, on CNN, that "most" hostages have been freed.

We really need the Pres. Elect to go ahead and take office.

Bu$h won't mind, he already looks relieved.

[Adsos Letter]

162. "Deccan Mujahideen" claiming credit for attacks....

according to live coverage on ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/video/video_live.aspx?id=0

[varun]

163. Mumbai: Jewish group under seige

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081127/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting

MUMBAI, India – Media reports say gunmen seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch overnight, and that shots have now been heard coming from the building.

Representatives of the New York-based group referred questions to their Web site, which said the Israeli consulate had earlier been in touch with the rabbi who lived in the house, "but the line was cut in middle of the conversation. No further contact has since been established."

Teams of gunmen stormed luxury hotels, a popular restaurant, hospitals and a crowded train station in coordinated attacks across India's financial capital, killing at least 101 people, taking Westerners hostage and leaving parts of the city under siege Thursday. A group of suspected Muslim militants claimed responsibility.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

[balantz]

169. Attacks are part of U.S. covert operations in preparation to invade Pakistan.

We've been hearing for some time now that's the next direction to be carried out by the new administration. The recent Marriot Hotel bombing in Pakistan was part of the preparations to go into Pakistan and "stabilize the region". And the asassination of Bhutto was also a covert operation which got rid of her and helped cause instability.

Always question what forces are really behind "evil Islamic terrorist attacks".

[INDIA]

215. "Always question what forces are really behind "evil Islamic terrorist attacks"."

Uhhhhhhh...a bunch of pissed of muslim terrorists? Seriesly, its not that hard. It happens everyday all over the ME Asia and Africa. Some attacks get press, some don't. This got press so it must be false flag? That's stupid.

[cali]

235. evidence? Nah, you don't need no stinkin' evidence.

dog, I hate stupid.

[zonkers]

244. You are smokin the good stuff pal.

[balantz]

245. Sorry, I don't do drugs. n/t

[zonkers]

246. Oh, you just do stupidity. nt

[balantz]

247. Ever heard of the actions of the CIA over the years? n/t

[kelly4hope]

171. This is crazy...who are these people? A Q?

[villager]

172. Report: Shots at Mumbai office of Jewish group

Source: AP

Report: Shots at Mumbai office of Jewish group


MUMBAI, India – Media reports say gunmen seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch overnight, and that shots have now been heard coming from the building.

Representatives of the New York-based group referred questions to their Web site, which said the Israeli consulate had earlier been in touch with the rabbi who lived in the house, "but the line was cut in middle of the conversation. No further contact has since been established."

<snip>

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081127/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting

---

Goddamnit.

[Kurska]

173. But.. but.. but.. islamist extremists would never kill jews, they just hate israel

I mean that would be anti-Semitic

[Name removed]

179. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rockymountaindem]

174. Well, basically you can't be a crazed anti-western organization unless you hate Jews

That account doesn't sound good. I will pray for them.

[henank]

175. I just heard on Israel Radio

that 3 people have exited safely from Bet Chabad - the Rabbi's wife and child, and the cook. But there are still Israeli hostages inside. I have no link yet.

[xchrom]

177. thank god for those who are safe. nt

[question everything]

183. Link from Haaretz

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041308.html

An Israeli family is being held hostage by gunmen in a Mumbai apartment building following a series of attacks in the city that have killed at least 100 people and injured nearly 300, police said.

Local residents said a rabbi, his wife and two children live in and own the building, but it was not clear if they were the hostages. Gunfire could be heard from the area, a Reuters reporter on the scene said.

On its Web site, Chabad expressed concern for the welfare of its representative to Mumbai, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, and his wife, Rivka Holtzberg, who have not been heard from since the attacks. Chabad said its personnel was "working closely with the Israeli Foreign Ministry and the government" to locate the Holtzbergs and other missing persons in the Chabad House area.

Mumbai's Chabad House is said to be a popular stop for Israeli tourists. The Holtzbergs offer visitors a host of programs, including providing kosher food.

[breadandwine]

187. There are literally thousands of Chabad-Lubavitch websites. Some are reporting the crisis---

(Unlike the Pennsylvania Dutch, Chabad-Lubavitch does not shirk modern technology and was first to pioneer Jewish websites, as many of its members are computer programmers. Their rabbinical leader, the late Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was an inventor and Naval engineer who studied at the Sorbonne and other secular European universities, in addition to being a Jewish scholar and master of half a dozen languages.)

Chabad-Lubavitch, which does not proselytize non-Jews to convert, is the largest Jewish organization in the world.

They turned their Thailand Chabad Houses over to rescue efforts during the tsunami there. I saw pics of them going through the endless bodies strewn over the landscape as part of the rescue effort, helping regardless of the religion of the victims or homeless. These people are really dedicated. While others talk, they prefer to take action, even if the overall task seems overwhelming, following the dictum that "A little light dispels much darkness." Their fruit is the deed.

They were in the stadium distributing free food and drink to New Orleans-fleeing Hurricane Katrina refugees, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and they were there fast, while others were still holding conference calls and setting up useless bureaucracy, and while McCain and Bush were eating birthday cake.

One Chabad rabbi in New Orleans refused to leave because there were people who couldn't get out and they stayed in the upper floor of his Chabad House with him while the lower floor flooded. I saw a fierce debate among a couple of rabbis on a Chabad website over whether he should get out. One said he had to get out, it was a hurricane, it was life and death. The other was saying, "A Chabad shliach (emissary) does not leave his post." In the end, he stayed. Afterward he adopted one of the refugees, who had lost his parents.

No other Jewish organization is in every country and community where there are Jews, including many where others fear to tread, including Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan and Kazakstan as well as China, Vietnam, Japan, Nepal and India, Congo, every continent, including Antarctica.

The biggest Passover Seder (Passover celebration meal) on Earth by any Jewish group or denomination, is held every year by Chabad in Katmandu, Nepal of all places. 2,000 people attend with no advertising. It's an annual happening and Jews all over Asia hear about it by word-of-mouth and head to Nepal, from tourists and businessmen in Japan to backpackers in Thailand and the Himalayas. Some people knock down tall buildings. Lubavitch welcomes and feeds thousands on the footstep of Mount Everest.

Chabad had secret schools and synagogues all over Russia under the Soviets and many were imprisoned and killed for it.

Some Jewish organizations refuse to go anywhere that there isn't a Zabars deli (not even kosher) and Park Avenue shopping, but Chabad refuses to give up and abandon communities.

Ilan Ramon, the Israeli astronaut who perished in the space shuttle disaster, is memorialized along with the others in a plaque left on Mars by the Spirit Mars lander mission. One of the nearby Martian hills is also named after him. Ramon was very close with the Chabad rabbi in Cape Canaveral, who helped him bring into space kosher food, Sabbath candlesticks (don't know if he got to light them in space in zero gravity), a Jewish mezuzah (Biblical excerpt parchment scroll placed on every doorpost in the house) and a Torah scroll. There's an old joke that when men finally land on Mars they will be greeted by a Lubavitcher emissary and invited to enjoy his Chabad House hospitality there. But with Ramon memorialized on Mars, there's already a little piece of Lubavitch on Mars, so to speak.

Chabad is everywhere.

I used to know someone who was a Chabad rabbi in India, in one of the really impoverished areas. He was working there with his wife under impossible conditions, no normal toilets (nothing to sit on) nor other facilities. These are people who really give for the community, with total "mesiras nefesh" --- "self sacrifice." To them self sacrifice does not mean jumping off a cliff or committing suicide "for the cause" but sacrificing oneself every day. And he was planning to stay there in India at his Chabad House for the rest of his life.

Here are more links about the attack in India, especially from Chabad-related websites (I finally got the article below, first link, from Chabad.org, the worldwide-popular Chabad site --- which I couldn't get into for hours because it was apparently swamped):

http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/772305/jewish/Terrorists-Strike-Mumbai.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128578

http://lubavitch.com/news/article/2024542/Search-for-Chabad-Family-in-Mumbai-After-Terrorist-Strike.html

http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=13021

http://www.shmais.com/news.cfm?ID=50762

http://www.shmais.com/news.cfm?ID=50760

http://www2.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5740

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702336066&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041308.html


Multipe video clips, photo links and article---

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting


More video links (click on video thumbnails)---

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10854284&ch=4226714&src=news


New York Times ---

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/world/asia/27mumbai.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

[Hekate]

189. Thank you. Very much. That was both informative and heartfelt.

:hug:

Hekate

[girl gone mad]

193. Good information.

Thank you!

[breadandwine]

220. Major Update about the Mumbai Chabad House Crisis

The Indian government is asking that the news be limited since the terrorists holding the Mumbai Chabad House can pick up useful information from Indian TV, but a lot of news is still coming out, especially on Jewish and Israeli websites.

Sandra Samuel, the Mumbai Chabad House cook, was barricaded behind a door but heard a child crying just outside the door. She opened the door and found Moshe Tzvi Holtzberg, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg's two year old son. She grabbed him and made a run for it and escaped the building. The hysterical child is unharmed though his pants were drenched in blood. Samuel says she saw the Rabbi and his wife Rivka are alive but wounded and unconscious.

I got an email from a Chabad rabbi in California who is calling on everyone to pray --- recite Biblical Psalms for the hostages. Their tradition is to recite the psalms out loud with the thought in mind that the merit of doing so they are "donating" to the needy person. He provided this Psalm link from a Chabad website (bilingual, those who can read Hebrew are urged to recite it in Hebrew):

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/6320/jewish/Chapter-20.htm

Numerous online reports say that the Indian authorities have surrounded the Chabad House and are preparing to storm it. One of the terrorists there is dead and four more are inside. One of the terrorists inside called a news organization complaining that the Indian government was holding other terrorists lately and had killed Kashmir separatists. It's all about Hindu vs. Muslim.

THAT'S why they had to kill the JEWS.

Meanwhile Rebbetzin (Rabbi's wife) Rivka Holtzberg's father, Rabbi Shimon Rozenberg, is on his way to Mumbai, though I don't know how he'll make it with most airlines canceling flights to the city. Probably El Al is going, which has the best security of any airline in the world.

(Every El Al flight has 6 plainclothes sharpshooters on board sitting among the passengers. They carry 22 caliber handguns with some of the powder removed from each bullet. The idea is they want to be able to shoot the terrorist but they don't want the bullet so powerful that it will leave his body and kill somebody else or blow out a window. El Al planes also have the baggage compartment lined with tank armor, the planes have flare-firing anti-missile technology, and the cockpit is separated from the passenger compartment by a separate, fortified, locked vestibule and nobody gets through without identification. They also put all baggage through a special decompression chamber before it is loaded on the plane to test for barometric bomb triggers. If any bomb goes off, they want it to do so before it gets on the plane. While Bush's terror alerts were totally politicized and that dufus Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge preoccupied himself with duct tape, El Al's motto could be, NO YOU CAN'T. And they mean it.)

Photos on the web of the Mumbai Chabad House show a broken window with a bullet hole. A huge crowd stood outside at a distance after the siege started and, ironically, also a goat.

Socialists in India have publicly burned an effigy of the terrorists.

Neighbors had tried to protect the Chabad House as the armed gunmen seized it Wednesday night. They clashed with the gunmen and threw rocks at them in an effort to drive them away from the Chabad House, said Puran Doshi, a businessman who lives nearby. The crowd eventually retreated under fire from the assailants, who also threw several hand grenades, he said. "They shot indiscriminately into the crowd," Doshi said. Incredibly determined and courageous crowd.

More:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041569.html

Here's a bit of info on the Holtzberg's Mumbai Chabad House, which mentions their work visiting the sick in hospitals and the incarcerated in prison, food package distribution and drug prevention:

http://www.chabad.org/centers/default_cdo/aid/118651/jewish/Chabad-Mumbai.htm

[Hekate]

239. Again your post is packed with information. Again, thanks. Prayers for ALL in Mumbai. nt

[breadandwine]

255. Another Major Update about the Chabad House siege ---

One Chabad news service is reporting via Indian TV that one of the terrorists at Nariman House --- the Chabad House --- identifying himself as Imran Babar, called Indian TV and it was established that he did so using the cell number of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, the rabbi of Mumbai's Chabad House.

(Nariman House is the name of the building Chabad purchased for their Chabad House. Generally Chabad and Lubavitch are used interchangeably to refer to the movement, though technically Lubavitch is the name of a city in White Russia that was an early center of the movement, while Chabad is an acronym for the Hebrew words "Chochma, Binah, Daas" -- "wisdom, understanding, knowledge," which are carefully defined in Kabbalistic literature, Chabad being the intellectual mysticism of the movement and its philosophy, compared with the philosophy of some other Hasidic groups that stress more emotion. The Chabad movement can also be very joyous and celebratory, and they emphasize that emotion is the intermediary through which the wisdom of intellect is carried into action but that emotion is always directed by a rational guide. In an insane world they emphasize intellectual maturity. The Chabad movement believes that a person can completely transcend evil within him to become righteous. That is, not just to repress evil but to truly transform it fully into good. However, some do not yet have the strength to do so fully until the world is perfected. Nevertheless, they can still be good in action by restraining their evil impulses. Chabad emphasizes intellect because it believes that the mind can rule over the heart.)

Thus, apparently the terrorists got Rabbi Holtzberg's cell phone. Their call came in on his cell number. The terrorist, Imran Baber, said over the phone, "This is a matter between us and Hindus, the Hindu government." He then began rambling on about Palestine.

No matter what the grievance, a little Jew-hatred can always be worked into the patriotic program. Bad weather, bunions, ingrown toenails, it's all the fault of the Jews. After the earthquake and tsunami in Indonesia, there were Arab newspapers claiming the earthquake had been artificially engineered by Israel half a planet away. What else could have caused it?

From India TV's phone call with the terrorist Imran Babar over Rabbi Holtzberg's cell phone:

India TV -- Just reply to my question.. How many of you are there in Nariman House?
Imran -- I have five persons with me..

India TV -- What’s your age, Imran?
Imran -- I am 25.
India TV -- What’s the age of your friends?
Imran -- My other friends are also of the same age…young...adults.

India TV repeatedly appealed to the terrorists to surrender and release the hostages, but they were adamant. India TV informed the security agencies in Delhi and Mumbai as soon as the call was received from the terrorists.

There have now been reports of three separate explosions at the Chabad House and of grenades thrown out of the Chabad House at security forces dug in outside. (Possibly the separate reports of explosions and grenades refer to the same events.)

Daily News and Analysis of India is reporting that local residents believe the 6 terrorists holed up in the Chabad House can battle security forces for 3 days. "Before barging into Nariman House, they had purchased adequate food to last them at least three days," Mukund Shelke, who runs a grocery shop at Colaba Market, said. "They had purchased around two crates of chicken and liquor worth 25,000 rupees from two shops in Colaba," another resident, Joseph D'Mello, said.

Curious that they had bought liquor, which is prohibited in Islamic law. This reminds me of the night on the town at a sleaze joint that the Twin Towers terrorists had before 911. I guess they figured a little last-minute naughty-naughty couldn't hurt before their crazed mayhem guaranteed them 72 virgins in Paradise.

Some residents claimed that the suspects were keeping track of the police's movements through a television in the Chabad House. "When the news of top police officials getting killed flashed in the television, we heard loud noises from the flat. It seemed they were celebrating," Anand Raorane, a resident in a building opposite Nariman House, said.

AP is reporting that "the gunmen were well-prepared, even carrying large bags of almonds to keep up their energy during the fight. Their main targets appeared to be Americans, Britons and Jews." Said Maj. Gen. R.K. Hooda, Vice-Admiral J.S. Bedi, a top naval officer, "They have AK-47s and grenades. They have bags full of grenades and have come fully prepared."

This attack on Chabad is being described as the worst in the movement's history and comes right after the hugely successful Chabad Emissary Convention held in New York last weekend, on Manhattan's upper west side, attended by about 4,000 emissaries from 72 countries around the world. This year's convention stressed unity, specifically the unifying theme of hakhel, a once-in-seven-years gathering of the Jewish people that has its roots in the days of the ancient Temple in Jerusalem (where the "Wailing Wall" today still stands and has been a site of Jewish pilgrimage for thousands of years), when the Jews would gather there to hear the Torah taught, but in modern times hakhel refers to the responsibility of each and every person to infuse their communities with a reinvigorated commitment to unify around G-d and His Torah.

The movement, with its mystical emphasis, is extremely popular with Jews from all backgrounds and denominations, and has been growing astronomically, with 90 (ninety) new Chabad Houses established around the world just this past year.

At the convention former Israeli Ambassador Yehuda Avner spoke. He quoted the Lubavitcher Rebbe (rabbinical leader, pronounced "REHB-ee"), the late Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Chabad movement, "When you bring the flame of Torah to the soul, then the body will fulfill the purpose for which it was created." Avner said he then asked the Rebbe if he had lit Avner's own candle. The Rebbe replied, "No. Only you can light your own candle. But I have given you the match."

Chabad has experienced tragedy before and always responds with great leaps forward. Always. Their energy in the face of crisis and misfortune is unvarying. Among other things they believe that ascents are frequently preceded by temporary descents. So they approach tragedy with great faith and fortitude.

Here is how they responded to a terrorist attack that hit Kfar Chabad, their village outside Tel Aviv, back in 1957:

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62090/jewish/The-Rebbe-Who-Saved-a-Village.htm

Some untranslated words from the article translated here:

Maariv -- the evening prayer service.

Siddurim -- prayer books.

Pogrom -- a massacre of Jews, especially carried out in the Middle Ages against Jews in Europe.

Chassid -- Hasid. Plural: Chassidim. The correct pronunciation of Hasid, since it is properly pronounced with a throaty "H." Same with "Chassidic" which is the way Lubavitchers prefer to spell and pronounce "Hasidic." The word derives from "chesed," which means "kindness."

Nissan -- the Hebrew month of redemption in which Passover occurs, the holiday commemorating the Exodus from Egypt.

Farbrengen -- A gathering in the Hasidic spirit, usually led by a single individual giving over stories and teachings, especially focussing on Hasidic mysticism and character development. Usually accompanied by periodic singing and eating. A farbrengen is basically the Hasidic version of a hootenanny although with a heavy mystical emphasis.

L'chaims -- plural of l'chaim. Literally, "To life!" The traditional Jewish toast especially over small amounts of grain alcohol.

The Torah -- The Bible specifically, or Biblically-derived teaching and scholarship in general.



Some minor clarifications:

Rabbi Holtzberg's son Moshe Tzvi Holtzberg is one and a half years old, not two. Eighteen months old, to be precise.

El Al is not canceling flights to Mumbai and will maintain full service. Among those heading there are ZAKA, Israel's disaster victim identification and rescue service. ZAKA is a religious service that tends to religious requirements during tragedies such as road accidents and terrorist attacks, assisting ambulance crews and, where necessary, performing the grim task of identifying and gathering body parts and spilled blood for proper burial.

[breadandwine]

259. This just in -- Chabad House rescue assault underway ---

Indian forces are now reported storming the Mumbai Chabad House, after having lit up the place brilliantly with light to illuminate the inside and facilitate rescue operations. Indian commandos were reported dropping onto the Chabad House roof from helicopters and forces were clearing the building floor by floor while sharpshooters kept up a steady stream of gunfire on the five-story building according to an AP reporter on the scene. Still no word on the fate of the hostages inside.

Report and video---

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting

[aquart]

185. Israelis or Jews?

Do they have Israeli passports? Or are they from the Lubavitch community in New York?

[xchrom]

176. and the violence deepens. nt

[varun]

178. there goes the theory of "Hindu extremists"

unless Hindus have suddenly developed a hatred of Jews

:eyes:

[regnaD kciN]

180. Don't be an ass...

It's been established that the attackers were fundamentalist Muslims for at least twelve hours now.

OTOH, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see fundie Hindu extremists retaliate against random Muslim communities throughout India. They already have a track record of genocide against Muslims -- part of what has made India such a tinderbox of religious hatred that has led to incidents like this.

[azurnoir]

181. Interesting

Interesting fact AP has run the identical story under 2 different headlines one can only wonder why.

101 killed as gunmen rampage in India city

MUMBAI, India – Teams of gunmen stormed luxury hotels, a popular restaurant, a crowded train station and a Jewish group's headquarters in India's financial capital, killing at least 101 people, taking Westerners hostage and leaving parts of the city under siege Thursday, police said. A group of suspected Muslim militants claimed responsibility.

Police and gunmen were exchanging occasional gunfire at two luxury hotels and dozens of people were believed held hostage or trapped in besieged buildings. Pradeep Indulkar, a senior official at the Maharashtra state Home Ministry said 101 people were killed and 287 injured.

<snip>

Gunmen also seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch, the New York-based group said. Indian commandos surrounded the building in the morning, and media reports said gunfire was heard from the building.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081127/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting

If you bother to read the entire story witnesses say that Militants presumably Muslim were targeting British and American citzens, not just Jews as the other headline would indicate

[henank]

182. Your link is identical

to the one posted in the OP. Same headline at all. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. No one is saying that only Jewish or Israeli hostages have been taken. This link was posted (I assume) as a point of interest to Jewish posters.

If you sat and watched Sky News or the BBC (which I have been doing for hours on and off) you would hardly know that there are American hostages. All you hear about are the Brits. So... are the Brits uninterested in the Americans? What's being said on American news? I can't receive it here.

[azurnoir]

186. That was my point

why would AP have two identical stories under two different headlines? As for American news I usually do not watch it, I prefer BBC and even watched the election returns there, gives a different persective.

[EFerrari]

188. The headline slippage happens all the time. n/t

[azurnoir]

191. Actually I 've never noticed it before

but I'll be sure to look in the future. It seemed kind of "strange" or perhaps just a cheap shot that AP would use something not mentioned in the article as a headline, especially when the article says very little else the Lubavitcher being taken hostage not even how many were thought to be hostage.

[EFerrari]

192. Yeah. I used to look for articles to post to our election reform news threads

and often the same article is posted under two different headlines. They get changed but the first one isn't taken down and so on.

[muriel_volestrangler]

200. I'd suggest the DUer pasted the wrong link in

Here's the one that fits that headline and article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081127/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting_61

It has a '_61' on the end. Either they incompletely swiped the URL, or they had the other one still in their clipboard, and didn't realise they hadn't replaced it with this one.

[azurnoir]

222. No

I am not sure which one of us you referring to. but at the time of the OP and my post the articles were identical, I checked them both out not from here but from the "My Yahoo" page. Perhaps in the ensuing hours one or the other has been updated

[muriel_volestrangler]

224. The link villager gave in post #172 "Report: Shots at Mumbai office of Jewish group"

did not point at a story with either that headline, or the excerpt given in that reply. The link I gave, however, matches both the headline and content given in #172. Therefore I am suggesting that villager either missed the '_61' off the end of the URL by accident when copying it, or thought they had copied it, when in fact they had copied, to their computer's clipboard, the URL of the link in the OP - which was the one you gave too. Either way, it's a mistake many people, including me, have done at times - either dropping a bit of a URL, or giving one to another web page you've recently viewed.

I don't think there is any evidence of AP putting 2 different stories out under the same URL. It's just simple human error when things are copied here to DU.

[azurnoir]

228. At first your post left me going huh?

but on further investigation Villagers post was an OP that was combined with another thread at about 5:30am CST, his original post was actually at 11:30pm CST Wednesday, my post was at 12:30am CST, note that there was an edit on my post where the edit time conflicts with the post time by about 5 hours.

edited to add OT but I love your avatar, being a long time King Crimson fan

[muriel_volestrangler]

230. Ah - I hadn't checked post times, so I hadn't contemplated a thread merge

the confusion becomes a lot more understandable now - 'OP' could have meant different posts to each of us.

"Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man. "

:D

[davidinalameda]

184. this is insane

have Muslim groups denounced this?

I haven't really looked for any reports on it

[Mari333]

190. someone sent me this weather report from mumbai

http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/local/INXX0087?from=search_city

[AngryAmish]

194. Way to go, Bush!

[Vegasaurus]

197. What does Bush have to do with Islamic extremists in India

It seems there is no place in the world safe from Islamic fundamentalists.

Where are the moderate Muslims, speaking out against this carnage?

[subsuelo]

202. I would amend that comment

To read:

"There is no place in the world safe from fundamentalists"

[Cal Carpenter]

203. They're sure not given much press, but they are out there

Here's something I found with a quick google, but I'm sure there are many more. But I wouldn't expect these groups to get major headlines in the western media...they never do...

Organisation of Islamic Conference condemns Mumbai attacks

Jeddah/Abu Dhabi - The Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) on Thursday condemned the terror attacks in Mumbai, saying violence had no justification.

'These acts of violence contradict all human values and can be justified by nothing,' an OIC spokesman said at the group's headquarters in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

In Abu Dhabi, the United Arab Emirates government condemned the 'reprehensible crime' and promised India its support in the fight against terrorism. About 80 per cent of foreigners living in the UAE are Indian nationals.


http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1445348.php/Organisation_of_Islamic_Conference_condemns_Mumbai_attacks_

[Vegasaurus]

205. The moderates should be screaming from the rooftops

the only way to change the public image is for moderate Muslims to condemn each and every terrorist action LOUDLY.

And to change their anti-Western, anti-Semitic rhetoric used daily in their news, cartoons, conferences, rallies, etc.

[Cal Carpenter]

208. If they scream from their rooftops will you hear it

if CNN doesn't show it on the teevee? If the NYT doesn't put it on the front page?

And MODERATES aren't the ones using anti-western, anti-semitic rhetoric. Do you know how ignorant and judgmental you sound?

[oberliner]

234. British Indian Muslims condemn terrorist attacks in Mumbai

"We are shocked and saddened at the tragic deaths of innocent people killed in these barbaric attacks and strongly condemn these acts if savagery. Our thoughts go to the families of the deceased and pray for quick recovery of the injured." Chairman of Council of Indian Muslims—CIM (UK) Mohammad Munaf Zeena has said in a statement issued today.

"We salute the courage of the officers who died fighting these criminals. This is really ironic that the brave chief of Bombay Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS), Hemant Karkare, believed to be one of the fairest officers and who had played a leading role in the investigations in Malegaon blasts and had received threatening calls only few days ago has also been killed in this terrorist attack." Zeena said.


http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=15209

[superduperfarleft]

212. Do a search on the username.

He regularly posts the same thing in threads about topics where clearly Bush has nothing to do with it. I'm know he's just being a smart-ass, but I'm not sure I can say what his motivations are for doing it.

[JI7]

217. trolls often do that to try to make us look bad

they want to use it against us.

but if you look at threads on Freerepublic on this terror attack and compare it to the ones on DU you will see it's the freepers who are attacking Obama. a bunch of freeper posts were all about Obama, Ayers and other crap that has nothing to do with it.

[Cal Carpenter]

204. Organisation of Islamic Conference condemns Mumbai attacks

Organisation of Islamic Conference condemns Mumbai attacks

Jeddah/Abu Dhabi - The Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) on Thursday condemned the terror attacks in Mumbai, saying violence had no justification.

'These acts of violence contradict all human values and can be justified by nothing,' an OIC spokesman said at the group's headquarters in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

In Abu Dhabi, the United Arab Emirates government condemned the 'reprehensible crime' and promised India its support in the fight against terrorism. About 80 per cent of foreigners living in the UAE are Indian nationals.


http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/a...

I posted this above as a response to another comment so I hope it isn't bad form to post it twice on this thread. I just know that there won't be much media coverage of muslim groups condemning the attacks because there never is. There are folks implying that muslims won't/don't condemn this kind of horror which is completely erroneous. I think it is important to understand that the vast majority of muslims are as appalled and horrified by this as everyone else.

[eilen]

209. I'm watching the coverage now on CNN

Sarah Seidner (sp?) is reporting from outside the hotel (Taj). Hostages are released, there were some fires and firefighting personnel have arrived and controlled that. People are coming out. Authrities say the siege is over at the hotel. Ambulances are there to take people who may be injured. Army personnel were there and had secured it. They have left. Police are leaving.

No numbers out yet, who or how many terrorists were there, how many in custody and how many injured or killed.

This thing has been going on for over 20 hours. I think it is on its way to ending. But this has seriously shaken the Mumbai population. I suspect that they will need some kind of training and anti-terrorist procedures for the police department. I wonder if there was some kind of emergency plan in place and if so, they can refine it as it has been tested (and failed).

The targeting of Americans and other foreign visitors was an attention getting gesture--to get the attention of the world media-- that seems to be the consensus of the reporters and the people they are interviewing. Also, taking foreign hostages can be a way to get leverage with local authorities.

I am of the opinion that this action was instigated and executed by reason of the regional and historical issues between India and Pakistan. Sometimes I think that Americans should realize that it isn't all about us all the time. I hardly believe that Pakistan or Kashmir governments wish to have this type of incident when a new president is soon to be inaugurated. There is no point to protest the current administration as they are on their way out. I know this infers that the governments somehow sanction or are apprised of the plans of these "muslim terrorist groups" and that is not necessarily my intention however I find it hard to believe that they would not have any intelligence of something that so obviously required a lot of planning and a large number of people to carry it out.

[humbled_opinion]

211. At this moment in History

The world is a very crazy and less safe place. How can these type of attacks continue to happen after all the manpower and money we are throwing at the terror problem?
Hope is on the way, maybe if we change the way we have handled these things in the world over these past 20 or 30 years then we will get a different result.

[slackmaster]

214. Time to cross India off the list of places I want to visit before I die

Thanks a bunch, radical Islamists and religious wackadoodles in general.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

218. It can happen anywhere though

There have been large scale attacks in New York, London and Madrid. And a large-scale attack is possible anywhere. The sad reality is that there is no "safe" city anymore.

[slackmaster]

219. It's not going to happen in my neighborhood

My neighbors and I have a pact to shoot violent religious extremists on sight.

[Swede]

221. Except you won't know they're violent til the they become violent.

By then it's too late,they've done their massacre. All you can do is make them martyrs,which is fine with them.

[slackmaster]

229. I say make martyrs out of every one of the fuckers

That would stop them cold.

[Swede]

236. But you can't tell the good guys from the bad.

That's their weapon.

[slackmaster]

238. Don't make me say it...

Not on Thanksgiving.

[Chan790]

223. Sure but think of what you'll miss in life...

because ultimately two things dissuade me from this same sort of thinking:

1.) Even in the most terrorist-laden countries in the world your odds are greater statistically of being killed by slipping getting out of the bathtub than by insurgents unless you're going to places you should not go (Al Qaeda training camps are probably not a good sightseeing choice.) or doing things you should not do. (Buying heroin or AK-74U rifles is a generally-risky proposition anywhere.). The odds of being the target/victim of a terrorist attack are small.

2.) Everybody dies in life, but not everybody lives before they get to that end.

[slackmaster]

231. There are far more interesting places in the world than I have time to visit

Avoiding countries that either have an entrenched radical Muslim movement, or are adjacent to one that does, leaves a lot of very nice places.

[pampango]

227. My reaction was the opposite. I've always wanted to visit there and going now

would make a statement that the rest of us can't be intimidated.

I also want to visit Israel, Turkey, Egypt and a few other places that have been targeted by terrorist attacks. Likewise, I hope that the similar attack in New York doesn't scare the world into not visiting the US.

[slackmaster]

233. I'm very interested to see how the Indian government deals with this security problem

When they do crack down, sometimes they do it really well.

[LeftishBrit]

232. This is truly awful. I hope that it is resolved without further murder or violence.

[ohio2007]

241. COPS CLEAR CAMA HOSPITAL, TAJ BURNS

Mumbai: Army and police commandos are engaged in fierce gunbattle with small groups of terrorists who have taken many people hostages at the Taj Intercontinental Hotel, Oberoi Hotel and the Cama Hospital.


According to the latest reports police have succeeded in flushing out terrorists from the Cama Hospital.



snip

Some terrorists have fled in two vehicles. They have taken a jeep (registration no: MH01-ZA102) belonging to Maharashtra government and a police Qualis (registration no: MH01-BA5179).

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/cops-clear-cama-hospital-taj-burns/79145-3.html

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/79145/cops-clear-cama-hospital-taj-burns.html

dunno how many safe houses they will get to but at least one inept taxi driver foiled an attempt at the airport

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21166§ionid=4&issueid=81&Itemid=1

I doubt the end of this story will be the end of terrorism. Wonder how these events will play out after friday prayers

[Rocknrule]

267. Freepers already calling for wholesale genocide of Muslims in reaction to this

[pork medley]

268. .

[Sarah Ibarruri]

275. They did the same thing after 9/11, but they were not the only ones calling for that

Bush attacked Iraq not for retaliation against 9/11, but to please his pals the oil barons, to give trillions to the CEOs of the military-industrial complex, and to create new job$ for his pals by building the largest embassy on the planet, and one that is a bunker.

[BrightKnight]

276. ...a charity hospital for women and young children!?? India wasn't hurt.

They opened fire in a charity hospital for women and young children. What does murdering sick women and children have to do with anything?

Now 1.3 billion people are going to see the light and follow these crazy clowns? People are not going to stop doing business in India and India is not going to withdraw from the world.