Union Responds To Death of Long Island Wal-mart Worker

[Omaha Steve]

Source: readMedia Newswire

Demands Federal Safety Agency and Nassau County Prosecutor Investigate

QUEENS VILLAGE, NY (readMedia)-- United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1500, New York State's largest grocery workers Union, has called for an immediate investigation by Federal, State and Local authorities into the "avoidable" death of a Wal-mart worker at the Valley Stream, Long Island Wal-mart. Specifically, the Union has called on the Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the New York State Department of Labor and the Nassau County Prosecutor to investigate Wal-mart's failure to provide a safe workplace.

"This incident was avoidable," said Bruce Both, President of United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1500. "Where were the safety barriers? Where was security? How did store management not see dangerous numbers of customers barreling down on the store in such an unsafe manner?" asked President Both. "This is not just tragic; it rises to a level of blatant irresponsibility by Wal-mart. UFCW Local 1500 will demand a full investigation by all levels of Government to ensure both justice for the surviving family members and to ensure the safety of current employees and the general public. This can never be allowed to happen again and those responsible must be held accountable," Both concluded.

Director of Special Projects for Local 1500 Patrick Purcell called Wal-mart's comments in response to the incident both "cold and heartless." "If the safety of their customers and workers was a top priority, then this never would have happened," Purcell stated. "Wal-mart must step up to the plate and ensure that all those injured, as well as the family of the deceased, be financially compensated for their injuries and their losses. Their words are weak. The community demands action," Purcell concluded.


Read more: http://readme.readmedia.com/news/show/Union-Responds-To-Death-of-Long-Island-Wal-mart-Worker/308889

[gristy]

1. Oh yeah - the "Nassau County Prosecutor "

Big time.

[elleng]

70. What's the matter?

You know the guy/gal?

[Chorophyll]

101. Actually Nassau County is big time.

It's an enormous suburban county, more or less an extension of New York City. What's your point?

[LostinVA]

150. Actually, it IS "big time"

[hlthe2b]

2. As if I needed yet another reason to hate Walmart...

RIP, poor worker. How very very tragic.

[ColbertWatcher]

86. People really need to stop shopping there. n/t

[HopeFor2006]

3. This is so unbelievable!

I was sickened when I first heard about this story.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. So you don't think WalMart is responsible at all?

How can you blame this union guy? That really doesn't make any sense.

[fudge stripe cookays]

28. 3 posts...

and bashing a union.

As they say....do the math.

[InternalDialogue]

29. Nevermind

...

[Kingofalldems]

33. Check that profile--wow

This place is crawling with freepers today, new and old.

[yardwork]

39. Read the profile....oh my God.

[Dinger]

127. I Missed it. What Did It Say?

Must've been bad.

[LostinVA]

151. PM me if about it if you get a chance

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Pizza is in the oven

:)

[sce56]

68. Yep I get a wiff a faint wiff of Pizza wheres my tombstone?

[Doremus]

63. took the words right outta my mouth. n/t

[Vektor]

47. Look at the personal website he links to.

About halfway down, the bigoted anti-gay smears appear. He's a freeper.

[Career Prole]

52. Jeebus. You're right! Start at the bottom and read upwards.

I couldn't get through the tedium of his "play" and self-congratulations. Because of your post I went back and started at the bottom. Friggin' freeper.

[Vektor]

55. Yep.

What a sicko.

[DUlover2909]

76. I wanted to avoid clicking his website, so thanks for letting me know what it was.

[Starry Messenger]

78. That is sick.

I wish I hadn't gone looking. But I did. Disgusting.

[Vektor]

119. He's gone now.

Eliminated from DU, wiped away like a nasty little germ. :-)

[Sex Pistol]

104. Actually, George Bush is responsible for this.

After all, he is the one who encouraged people to go shopping.

[Acadia Blue]

113. RePIGlicans always blame victims. Anyone on the board blaming

the victim is just a filthy republcon parasite spammer. They support Big business even when they intentionally commit crimes.

[gristy]

8. OK, let me get this straight.

If I collect 500 hungry people outside my store and tell them that the first 10 people to get to the electronics dept will get $500, and one of them dies in the resulting stampede, you think the stampeders are to blame?

Please explain.

[DoctorMyEyes]

13. OMG is that what they did?

If that's true - that they offered $500 to the first ten who could make it to their electronics department they should be charged with manslaughter! Unbelievable!

[gristy]

15. no, no, no

I was simply articulating a alternative situation that was functionally equivalent with what Walmart did do.

[DoctorMyEyes]

22. Oh, okay

What they do, or actually don't do for crowd control is horrible enough. Thanks for setting me straight. I guess I'm at the point that I don't put any crazy shit past Walmart.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iris27]

130. It's essentially what they did, yeah.

One of my best friends works for WM and said for Black Friday their store only had 5 of the laptop model that they were advertising for $400 (and only about 10 Wiis).

So the first five who could get to the electronics department could get a laptop for about $400 off its normal retail price.

[Ex Lurker]

26. It's not either/or

Wal Mart and the tramplers share responsibility. I don't have a whole lot of compassion for the idiots in that crowd.

[Doremus]

66. The people who stampeded were being pushed from behind.

You can't have compassion for things you don't understand.

In large crowds it's the cumulative effect of hundreds of people, not just the ones in the front who end up trampling whatever's in the way. The people in back cannot see what's happening up front.

No, it isn't right to push at all, but Walpuke has a responsibility to control the crowds. Other stores manage to do so just fine. Best Buy managers come outside an hour before the store opens to hand out coupons for the hot sellers. If you have a coupon you are assured the product -- no running or pushing necessary.

I guess Walpuke is too stupid or greedy to think of a reasonable solution like that. :eyes:

[Ex Lurker]

79. I mean in the sense that they shouldn't have been there in the first place

there was nothing in that store worth standing in line at the crack of midnight for.

[Sherman A1]

94. You have hit the nail on the head.!

Wal Mart created the situation that lead to the stampede which lead to the man's death. They did not take reasonable actions to control the crowd or to provide a safe working condition at that time for the person who was trampled. The shoppers that pushed into the store, I believe bear much responsibility, but Wal Mart is the ultimate culprit here. They, acting (or not acting) through their management team were negligent and I believe are culpable in the death of this worker and the injuries to those who were also pushed down by the surging crowd.

I am glad the police closed the store and they are investigating the security tapes. It seems as they are doing what they can at this point. It will be up to other investigative agencies pursue the matter and I am in hopes that they do so with great vigor.

This in my opinion was a negligent homicide.

[liberalhistorian]

133. I'm sorry, but the stampeders were just as responsible

as Walmart. What about the people who actually stepped over the poor man after the stampede? What about the people who became irate and refused to leave and kept shopping after being told the store was closing right after the death? They are just as responsible as Walmart.

You can't go too far the other way and put ALL the blame on Walmart and none on the shoppers also. That's as bad as the above union basher putting the entire blame on the employees and the victim and the shoppers and none whatsoever for Walmart. The stampeders and angry shoppers bear the blame along with Walmart, which didn't have nearly enough, if any security, and which didn't have any kind of "numbers" system that so many other retailers have. They deliberately create these situations in the name of the Almighty Buck. There is NO WAY they could not have been aware of the necessity for major security and other types of actions that would have easily prevented it. All they give a shit about is profit and spinning publicity their way.

[emilyg]

59. Hungry people are not people wanting a new TV.

[jaksavage]

124. not necessarily

plenty of hungery folks crave new TVs and some get them.

[clear eye]

160. They are if they can sell it on eBay for double what it cost them. n/t

[DoctorMyEyes]

10. The blame lies with Walmart

Walmart DELIBERATELY practices shitty crowd control. They do this on purpose on Black Friday and on new game system release days. It gets them into the news. The news coverage of "riots" at Walmart translate into free advertising dollars and give the impression that their deals must be SO much better than everyone elses - because if they weren't people wouldn't be so excited.

It's all bullshit. It happens every year and now someone is dead. A 34 year old temp worker. And it was TOTALLY preventable.

A few years ago when the XBOX 360 came out just before Christmas in limited supplies my store handled our opening calmly and safely. People camped out all night at our store and at the Walmart down the street. There was a riot at Walmart even though they had the same amount of game systems as us and ours were actually a few dollars cheaper. The difference was we started handing out tickets at midnight, until they were gone. Then we let everyone else who waited know that their chances were slim because the limited supply had been spoken for but they were free to wait. We had security outside and inside and our opening was orderly.

Walmart THREW the freakin' things into a crowd that had gathered in their vestibule overnight!

Walmart is criminally negligent. They do not follow well established, long established crowd control practices.

[PearliePoo2]

27. excellent post

They did this on purpose for the free advertising.
They set it up to start a riot. (more press, night TV anchors, breathless pundits reporting LIVE)

"Hey, people are lining up and getting rowdy at Wal-Mart! Let's head on down to where the action is...they must have some REALLY GOOD SHIT they're giving away. Yeah..let's kick some butt too!"

Fuck Wal-Mart...I hope they get their ass sued from here to next Tuesday.

[BrklynLiberal]

34. I think criminally negligent homicide would get an indictment from a grand jury

[DoctorMyEyes]

40. I hope so

I really, really hope they have to pay for this and that they pay severely enough that they won't keep doing this shit year after year. Walmart is so completely fucking irresponsible. In so many respects.

[1monster]

48. This type of practice, of offering great prices on big ticket items, but limiting the

amount available is the main reason I don't do Black Friday shopping at all. I stay home.

I hate crowds.

In the old days, stores would have Black Friday sales from six a.m. to eleven a.m. If you got to the store in those hours, but the store had run out of sale items, you were given a rain ticket and would be able to get the sale item at the sale price when more came in.

The "limited number available" is nothing more than a very dangerous "bait and switch."

If I remember correctly from my retail days, bait and switch is illegal in most places...

[DoctorMyEyes]

57. Bait and Switch is still illegal

But limited supplies are not necessarily bait and switch. There are legitimate limited supplies of some items - and not just cause they're a loss leader. Sometimes the manufacturer can honestly only supply so many of a new product before the holiday season.

Bait and switch is when a salesperson talks you out of the advertised special into something more expensive. I don't think there's a lot of persuasion going on on Black Friday.

Anyways - limited supply or not, there's no excuse for the way Walmart opens their stores up on Black Fridays and hot new product launches.

[ColbertWatcher]

89. You nailed it.

It's all about what Wal-Mart doesn't want to pay for: employees, advertising, etc.

Here's an ad I grabbed from off the internets:



Notice the "Gifts worth waking for" part and the special, limited "sale hours."

And, here's a link to a video of a Wal-Mart in Oklahoma, where just one guy (not a uniformed security guard) opens the door: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw18_16AGv4 (forward ahead to 2:55 or so)

Wal-Mart knew what they were doing, and I hope they pay dearly for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. I found some videos about bizarre happenings at WalMart

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6OD_y_-AI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHTIskPi7kk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zmd7WKlwkE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd61LnxqSng&feature=related

"Attention WalMart shoppers. All sexual pleasure items are now on aisle 69"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGI9OXIXkSg&feature=related

[ColbertWatcher]

132. I don't get the videos. n/t

[LiberalEsto]

102. You don't see these riots at Macy's or Target

Or at most other retailers. I hope the poor victim's family sues the crap out of Walmart, but unfortunately I think their high-priced lawyers will win.

[DoctorMyEyes]

103. Exactly

Other retailers, whose loss leader sale prices are no better or worse than Walmart, don't have these issues. And Walmart wouldn't have crowd control problems either if they didn't want and encourage them for free publicity.

They need to be sued up one fucking side and down the other till there's nothing left but a hollow blue shell.

[WriteDown]

121. Other retailers don't have a bluray dvd player for 128$,,,,

That kind of deal always brings out the nuts.

[ColbertWatcher]

131. No, other retailers anticipate extra shoppers and plan crowd control for them. n/t

[zogofzorkon]

11. the tramplers did not create the situation

When people die in nightclub and theater fires due to conditions such as locked and blocked exits management & owners of the premises are held responsible. The fact that Wal-mart created the demand & promoted the event w/o any regard to controlling the crowds they hoped to draw is the height of irresponsibility. Purcell & Both were neither pathetic or lame but rather clear & reasonable. Corporate apologists are the most inhumane of spokesholes.

[RufusTFirefly]

24. Exactly. Excellent analogy. Welcome zogofzorkon!

I'm sure Wal-Mart did a cost-benefit analysis and concluded it was worth the risk. After all, crowd control costs money and cuts into the bottom line. Heartless bastards!

[yardwork]

41. Exactly. Welcome to DU!

[gaspee]

14. Let me guess...

You work for Wal Mart

[yardwork]

42. Take a look at the profile.

[Career Prole]

21. As you wish. I don't forgive you.

You're entitled to your opinion even when it consists of basically talking out your ass about situations and people you have no knowledge of.

Of course, I'm basing that on what you sound like (therefore, no doubt are).

[Downtown Hound]

25. There's blame all around here

but given that this kind of thing has happened before, Wal Mart should have taken more precautions. But that would cost money, and it's easier to sacrifice a minimum wage employee.

[PearliePoo2]

31. hit and run drive by

don't let the door hit ya.....

[RollWithIt]

46. Dear 4 post anti-union anti-worker anti-safety anti-life FUCKING ASSHOLE.......

Go back to your hole where you belong.

[GrantDem]

49. Didn't take long for the Union bashers to start...

How dare the Unions demand a safe workplace.

[Hekate]

50. Well, enjoy your stay. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Forgive me but Purcell is placing the blame squarely on Walmart , where it belongs.

Those who trampled do share the blame but the store didn't have enough staff (including store security and detail cops) on hand to control the situation. The store management created the environment for this tragedy and should learn from this that such break-down-the-doors sales should either be stopped or should be staffed appropriately.

The Who concert in Cincinnati 30 years ago, where 11 people were crushed as the crowd tried to rush in to get the best seats in a general admission show, changed the way many venues offered seating.

[ColbertWatcher]

87. I'm glad someone mentioned The Who concert. Thank you. n/t

[emilyg]

58. I agree.

Let's put some blame on the mob. They acted like wild animals.

[JTFrog]

97. Why do you agree with a troll freeper?

Not that I'm surprised, just curious.

:shrug:

[emilyg]

135. If you;'re not surprised - why ask.

[JTFrog]

145. Like I said, I was curious. Sue me. n/t

[emilyg]

149. For how much?

:hug:

[hedgehog]

109. Actually, you are precisely right on that. Large uncontrolled crowds

are the equivalent of a large herd. Unless careful steps are taken to keep people in the back from pushing the people in front, there is a hazard of stampede or crushing. The same thing happens on a regular basis during the hajj and during Hindu pilgrimages.

[Hannah Bell]

143. That's what mobs do. Which is why responsible businesses take security

precautions, duh.

[YOY]

65. Hey Dale...just wanted to point out something in your profile:

America isn't a country. The United States of America is. America is a couple of continents.

Just FYI...not that you'll stick around to read this.

[jeff30997]

69. From your profile:"why not have a stupidity tax, just tax the stupid people!"

How nice of you to offer a big chunk of your income.

[tsuki]

72. He has income? nt

[jeff30997]

129. Of course he does.

His mom gives him a $20 a week allowance plus she pays the psychiatrist fees to cure his homophobia.:evilgrin:

[tsuki]

137. $20, he be rich. nt

[LanternWaste]

157. It's called the Lottery!

"why not have a stupidity tax, just tax the stupid people!"

We do! It's called the Lottery! :evilgrin:

[Suji to Seoul]

73. Enjoy your stay, shitwad. Union hating is one sympton of Freeptard Disease.

[DUlover2909]

75. No he just blames WalMart, not everyone. Everyone inlcudes me and you.

[KingOfLostSouls]

77. You guys lost

shut the fuck up and get the fuck out


america has spoken.


conservatism is no longer welcome here.

[Suji to Seoul]

80. Ooo. . .I missed the homophobia in your posting too. Side Saddle?

You mean the way women traditionally rode horses. So, you're calling him a woman too?

Hmmm. . .anti-Union, homophobia, sexist and a corporate apologist. . .FREEPTARD!!!!!!!

[davidinalameda]

82. the side saddle?

pray explain that remark

[Ecumenist]

84. DaleAndersen......

Welcome to DU and enjoy your er, uh stay, however short it may be!!:hi:

[Bluebear]

88. Fuck you, you anti-gay freeper bigot piece of shit.

And I say that as nicely as possible.

[Donnachaidh]

92. uhh dear -- you do know WHO holds the responsibility for BOTH

employees AND customers, yes?

Now go back to your blogspot and play in traffic.... :eyes:

[enough already]

105. The customers bear no responsibilty whatsoever

This is all Walmart's fault, period. Fuck 'em.

[Bluzmann57]

5. Something that caught my eye

In the first paragraph of the story, the word avoidable was in quotation marks. There is absolutely no doubt that this death was unavoidable. No quotation marks needed. Fucking animals.

[Chulanowa]

12. They were quoting the union rep, while avoiding making a judgement call themselves

if the paper put in "avoidable" without quotation marks, it could end up on the business end of Wal-Mart's legal representatives for portraying the store as being at fault without a trial...

BS, but that's how it works

[Bluzmann57]

17. Ok. Thanks for clearing that up

There is no doubt that the walmart legal team would tear the paper apart. In a legal sense.
And when I said "fucking animals", I meant in part, the tramplers. It is very sad what this society has become.

[gristy]

6. self-delete

Posted to wrong post

[targetpractice]

9. I thought the Walmart press releases were cold, too...

They refer to their employee (who died while trying to do his job) as an "associate" and "the deceased." His trampling was referred to only as an "unfortunate event". Not a hint of accountability, responsibility, gratitude for service, or sorrow.

[gristy]

16. Accountability and responsibility will be determined by the courts

Certainly Walmart isn't going to give anything away on this.

[silverojo]

23. That's the first advice from their (or anybody's) lawyers:

"Don't admit anything."

While I fully believe Wal-Mart is to blame for not having adequate crowd control, it's also wrong to absolve the tramplers of blame, too.

Honestly, if a man was getting trampled to death beneath you, wouldn't you try to help him up? Or, if that was impossible because of the stampede, at least step AROUND him?

That's the true Republican attitude: "Fuck that guy, he's getting in my way!" If it had been an elderly or handicapped person getting trampled, all the better (in their eyes, I mean).

[targetpractice]

112. The situation is sickening... I understand your POV...

I avoid trampling others as rule of thumb. I think most other human beings do also.

I don't believe people in that crowd had the ability to make individual decisions once the doors opened. I'm sure that everyone who stepped on the guy is living with terrible guilt and sadness today.

I doubt anyone could avoid trampling him if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time in that crowd flow. Crowds are not fun.

Would you blame individual drivers involved in a multi-car pile-up on a foggy road for the accidental deaths?

I really doubt mean-spirited Republicans are at fault.

[Oak2004]

117. No, the tramplers are almost certainly not at fault

(Putting emergency management hat back on to post in yet another thread on this disaster):

Anyone who would have stopped to try to help that man would themselves have been knocked over and trampled. In fact likely they would not have been able to stop no matter how much they would have wanted to -- pressure from the crowd would have pushed them forward.

Crowd trampling is a known, well-studied disaster. There are even computer models for studying the motions of crowds that can accurately predict danger spots, given the architectural parameters and the crowd size. The crowd is not at fault, at least not for anything more serious than picking a crappy store to shop at. Walmart is culpable, and, given some of what has come out already, may deserve a corporate manslaughter charge.

Edited to add some links (some to papers requiring access, but at least the abstract shows the nature of the research):

http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?0524135 and http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1224690(also article at http://uninews.unimelb.edu.au/view.php?articleID=754)

http://www.crowddynamics.com , and especially http://www.crowddynamics.com/Disasters/crowd_crazing.htm

(there is much more on the topic... google away for other sources).

[targetpractice]

45. Right... I suppose I was thinking...

... that terms like associates (vs. employees) come in handy during times like these. I realize that Walmart is not going to admit any wrongdoing.

Calling people (on a payroll) associates, team members, co-workers, etc. seems like a subtle way to downplay the responsibility an employer has to its employees.

"Associates were there... Barricades were placed... Signs were posted... The outcome was unfortunate happenstance."

Just wondering if liability concerns have been responsible for the emergence of these "friendly" terms terms for hourly employees.

[TankLV]

61. Actually - it's a way of making them "seem" like they are part of the MANAGEMENT, hence, no need for

"unions" because only "employees" need unions...

it's all part of the "new" corporate BS - make them seem like they have a "say" and "control" when they DON'T, hence no need to actually PAY them (reward) them for their "work" as "employees"...

[pam4water]

32. Wow remember last year that woman who'd been in a car accident and Wal-Mart

suit to recoup the money they money they'd pay in medical benefits. He son died in Iraq shortly after.

[Jamastiene]

107. I don't disagree with you that Wal-Mart has no heart, but

they DO call their employees "associates" from day one. I worked at the local Wal-Mart for a while. That whole "associates" thing got on my nerves from day one. It's like a cult or something.

Still, I agree with your point that they are cold and heartless in the way they are handling this.

[1776Forever]

18. This is so true! A "level of blatant irresponsibility by Wal-mart" Talked about this last night

to family while we were discussing the "bargains" at the stores and said I wasn't going to go anywhere near Wal-Mart in first couple of hours because of all the past problems they have had. Does anyone else remember that woman that was seriously hurt a few years ago by a crowd of unruly people in a Wal-Mart store? I tried to find a link but it must be too old now. Guess they didn't learn anything after that incident!


:shrug:

[DoctorMyEyes]

36. I think this is a link to the video of the incident you remember

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3eUiMHtPgQ

It's all just fun and games to Walmart. I hope this finally hits them and hits them hard. There was no reason for this man to lose his life this morning.

[silverojo]

38. Wal-Mart is definitely not solely to blame for all this

There's another article about this (posted on another thread):
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/11/28/2008-11-28_worker_dies_at_long_island_walmart_after.html

From the article:

Before police shut down the store, eager shoppers streamed past emergency crews as they worked furiously to save the store clerk's life.

"They were working on him, but you could see he was dead, said Halcyon Alexander, 29. "People were still coming through."

Only a few stopped.

"They're savages," said shopper Kimberly Cribbs, 27. "It's sad. It's terrible."

The crowds are to blame...period.

The only thing Wal-Mart could've done differently would have been to call 911 and get riot police out there. No way could any store's security handle thugs like that, who literally broke the doors off their hinges.

This isn't a Wal-Mart problem. It's a "Black Friday" problem. As long as stores have Black Friday sales which attract hordes of shoppers, incidents like this will occur.

Sane people skip Black Friday altogether. It's a day when animalistic people gleefully come out of their cages to do battle with the masses, in order to get sale merchandise before the stores are sold out.

Stopping Black Friday sales and stocking adequate amounts of merchandise would be the answer. Maybe Black Friday doesn't result in frequent deaths, but there ARE numerous injuries that don't make the news.

The whole concept of Black Friday sales fuels this already sick mentality of people who will LITERALLY stomp someone to death, to snag an electronic thingamajig before they're all gone.

If you want to blame Wal-Mart for having sales like this, I'm with you. But only on the condition that you blame ALL the stores who participate in this "tradition" year after year.

[DoctorMyEyes]

44. I'm sorry, but you're wrong

Yes, it's awful that people trampled this man. Walmart however creates a "mass hysteria" and they do it deliberately. It's not that their prices are so much lower or deals any better than any other retailers. It's that they DELIBERATELY and SYSTEMATICALLY year after year ignore common safety and crowd control procedures. They know what they get and they repeat it every year for free advertising.

There are DOZENS of thing Walmart could have done besides "call 911 and get riot police out there". Other retailers don't have these problems. We use to barriers to "cattle chute" crowds into orderly lines. We use ticket systems for limited stock items. We have security walking the line ALL NIGHT to make sure everyone is okay and nobody is getting overly excited. We give them a quick talk OUTSIDE THE STORE before opening the doors to let them know what we expect from them and what they can expect from us. In some cases we'll only count off 10 or 20 people at a time so that we don't get too big of a knot of people tied up on top of each other. Seriously - this isn't rocket science and I've been doing it since the 80s for everything from concert tickets to WII systems.

This year the inevitable result of years of bad policy finally caught up with them. And a man is dead.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

148. YOU have the most rational view here--I thank you

A mob is as responsible, on an individual level, as the water molecules of a crashing, flooded river are responsible for the damage left in its wake. Or cattle herded towards slaughter. (Now I"m thinking of Dr Temple Grandin)

I believe it is social norms that shape the behavior of individuals, which we then see in extreme form in mob situations. The entity that encourages the mass hysteria is responsible for the consequences, in the short term. In the long term, whatever forces that shape society as a whole are responsible--and I think those forces are too large and long-term to be subjected to the usual idea of crime and punishment.

Yes we all wish those people in the savage crowd could be punished, held responsible, but that is not possible. People are already crazed as a result of the conditions of the time---ignorance, consumerism, media, marketing, false morality...the list goes on.... (And now, I'm thinking I should read the book, "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds")

As a rancher is responsible for herding methods, so is MalWart responsible for its business practices.

[LanternWaste]

158. Thus The Who are responsible for eleven deaths in 1979?

Thus The Who are responsible for eleven deaths and dozens wounded at one of their concerts in 1979?

If not, what is the precise and relevant difference that would preclude The Who from any responsibility?

[enough already]

106. Bullshit

The crowds are not to blame. It's fucking Walmart's fault. Hopefully we can shut those pricks down for good with a new administration.

[acmavm]

114. I know it's no consolation but I think you have the most rational view on

the subject of who's guilty or to blame here.

Reading this thread all I could think of was Flip Wilson as Geraldine.

"The Devil made me do it."

No one's ever responsible for their own bad behavior (and that is using a term as loosely as possible) anymore.

edit:

Here's a little bit of what I mean:

<snip>
When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling `I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081129/ap_on_re_us/wal_mart_death

[madmom]

118. You better duck and cover for this opinion, I tried to convey the same idea on a different thread

the people here love to hate Wal-mart, so it doesn't matter what happens it's Wal-mart's fault.I'm not saying Wal-mart doesn't share in the blame, but I'm with you in all this "black friday" sales bullshit.It should be illegal and yes most retailers do it and they do it the same way, no security, no crowd control etc. Why this happened at Wal-mart? maybe because more people can afford to shop at Walmart instead of Macy's or whatever other store. The reason Walmart "works" for so many people is because their prices are lower so people think if they have a sale the prices are even lower still.Yes Walmart is to blame but so is the city/town that allowed this to go on, the people who actually did it,and the authorities for not recognizing the problem YEARS ago.Where's the outrage over the people who got shot at Toys R Us? Was this not their fault for not having security at the door? Oh never mind we LIKE that store and it's NOT Walmart.

[eilen]

136. I agree it is Walmart's duty to provide for safety of their employees as

well as their customers-- frankly I'm surprised that customers weren't trampled. However, once they poured in and there was that lull of time where the poor man was lying there unconscious and the emergency crews started arriving to work on him--- those cold greedy assholes kept shopping. They kept walking in, walking on by the dying man and the injured pregnant woman and kept shopping. How cold is that?

the police should have closed the store up and not let anyone leave -- secure the crime scene and question every one of those people. They might have even found a few with outstanding warrants.

This was an assualt, break-in, destruction of property on the part of the people in the crowd.

On Walmart's part it was negligence, depraved indifference, etc. There was no security. They sent an outsourced maintenance man to deal with the crowd. They allowed people to line up at their store at 10 pm the previous night. They incited a mob.

[Raineyb]

155. Actualy customers were injured as well

But when someone dies it does tend to end up in the back burner.

But to call it an assault by the people in the crowd is a bit of a stretch. Without crowd controls 2000 people trying to squeeze into one small space is a disaster waiting to happen as the people in the back start pushing and the momentum causes crushing forces that pushes the people in the front.

Walmart should have and could have better crowd control systems in place. However, that would cost money and they couldn't be bothered. Now a man is dead. The sad thing is that they will do the same shit next year and very few people will have learned anything from this tragedy.

Regards

[Buns_of_Fire]

142. The entire concept of "Black Friday Sales" sucks.

If anyone wants to blame Walmart, that's fine with me. If anyone wants to blame the crowd, that's fine with me, too. There are plenty of black eyes to be passed out to all involved.

I'd suggest that perhaps Congress might want to take a look at the situation, but all they'd probably do is declare the day after Thanksgiving a national holiday.

[Hannah Bell]

144. The police chief says there wasn't enough security.

The stories about "animals" are coming from the WM-ers.

There may have been some "animals" in the crowd, but not 2000.

If you encourage 2000 people to come, you prepare for it.

The photos at the door before opening show me there were no barriers, no discernable security.

I'm tired of corporate apologists, apologists for murderers.

[1776Forever]

98. Thanks for the link - yes this was this years but I wondered if anyone remember a couple of years

ago this happen before. I was thinking it was at a Wal-Mart then too. Glad I wasn't there!

[navarth]

19. recommend

will be following with interest

[ksimons]

20. this will cost them major buckeroos, Walmart will be 100% held liable

open and shut case.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YOY]

67. You forgot the pope and the boy scouts.

n.t.

[Career Prole]

90. It wasn't entertaining the first time you wrote it...

...in your pathetic narcissistic blog, and it isn't entertaining now. Why not copy and paste all of it in context, loser?

For those DUers who are wondering why I'm mad, the bulk of jerkwad's post above was copied and pasted directly from his blog, and in its context there he was mocking those of us who suffered so much pain after California's hateful Prop. 8 was passed. Yeah, you heard that right.
It's long past tombstone time for this idiot.

He's anti-gay rights, anti-union, and I've no doubt anti-a lot of things we believe in. Don't feed the troll.

[Omaha Steve]

96. Is this his picture at his blog?

No. But I'm sure he isn't far from it!

[mirkenstock]

126. Anti-Union?

The "union" did a whole hell of a lot for the automotive industry didn't it? Yay "union"!!! Who shall we bail out next?

[Career Prole]

128. Yes , in fact the union has done a whole hell of a lot

for the auto industry. They've done quite a lot for many industries considering that they now have not only the corporations but the government aligned against them thanks to tools like, oh...you, for instance. I'm surprised you didn't know that. Then again, I see your post count and the other half of your post total up-thread and I realize "Oh hell, here we go again!"
Tell me, why do freepers hate workers? Something tells me you might know the answer to that one.

[newspeak]

139. I hope your not going to give us the "Auto workers make 70 bucks an hour BS

Because they don't--which wacko, blow hard is playing this crap!!!! It's more like 20.00 an hour-oh excuse me, if they still get medical and retirement--what many of us once had with decent jobs. Come on, admit it--your jealous that there's still some US jobs out there that still pay decent wages, instead of minimum wage with no benefits. What has happened (and I'm still wondering if the auto and oil companies in this country have some kind of deal), our auto industry has not kept up with fuel efficiency or innovation. They did the same thing during the gas crisis in the seventies--I can remember my friends buying VWs and the Toyota Corolla-the auto industry also gets to bypass emissions with SUV's--so they push more of them to the consumers. It is management that has gotten the auto industry in this mess, just like in the seventies.

[Career Prole]

140. I think you may have meant to reply to the post

I replied to instead of to mine. S'okay. Happens all the time!

[AtheistCrusader]

91. Nice blog. Are you a bigot everywhere or just in polite company?

"But enough of wit and humor. Back to the election aftermath. With 97% of the votes counted and a Prop 8 defeat out of reach and every news service in the country declaring the yes side the winner, Kate and some eunuch named Geoff issued this press release...

Classy, huh?

So what are the No on 8 dweebs doing now that their Dignity Diddle is in deadly disarray?

For starters, they trashed West Hollywood last night. Real bright. Took a dump on their own neighborhood. That'll sure as fuck show the rest of us who's boss!"




Get. Out.

[Donnachaidh]

93. I see granite in your future toots

Good luck with your anti-union rhetoric, asshat. The internet doesn't forget, and these postings AND your blog will probably find their way onto the screens of more than a few UNION employees at SAG, and AFTRA, and EQUITY.


That bright future is getting very, very dim with every comment you fire off. You can't erase the bigotry and hate once it's out there. No 'do-overs' for you!

You might want to save your pages for future use - in the refrigerator box of your choice under the 405.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[BrklynLiberal]

30. NYC won't let WalMart in. I hope they get banned in NYS..

[bluesmail]

37. UNION! YES! UNION! YES! UNION! YES!

CEOS! :thumbsdown: CEOS! :thumbsdown: CEOS!

:thumbsdown:

[FarCenter]

43. Just require that stores provide rain checks for any advertized special

And fullfill them within two weeks. Or refund the full price of the item to buy back the raincheck.

[Bette Noir]

83. That makes sense.

Let's all write our Congresscritters.

[mbritton]

51. The race bashers are coming out again on this one

Some are putting the blame along racial lines in New York and else where. Look at the video stills on the net and make the connection. These were a couple of posts in NY daily News Online:

"It would be interesting to see the ETHNIC makeup of the crowd. Thats right I said that. Dont like it?"

Posted by V-Max on Nov 28, 2008 10:16 AM

"HappilyinMidwest, I'm happy too and just proves my point about something that is forbidden to talk about: blacks"

Posted by mfm123 on Nov 28, 2008 11:20 AM

"These people are all Obama supporters. Ennough said."

Posted by starglow on Nov 28, 2008 11:47 AM

"Obama has set the tone for such hate and hysteria"

Posted by Dennis D on Nov 28, 2008 11:48 AM


Its really getting scary out there people!:hide:

[Suji to Seoul]

81. Obama's to blame? Nice stretch there, Dennis D.

For you, Dennis D at NY Post dot com. just put your picture in:

[CarbonDate]

56. After reading the story about the crowd....

...I have to say an appropriate response to this particular crowd of people would involve tear gas at a minimum. Preferably M-16s. Shoot for the head. Society would be better off without these animals.

The idea that the crowd isn't responsible for their actions is ridiculous. Yes, Wal-Mart is responsible for creating these conditions, but people don't get trampled over a fucking TV unless you have thousands of people willing to trample people over a fucking TV.

Wal-Mart is criminally negligent, and these stampeding cattle are murderers. They killed him because he was in the way of their BIG HUGE SAVINGS!!!11! These are vile fucking people who deserve no sympathy.

[DoctorMyEyes]

60. Yeah they're assholes

Anyone who would line up outside a Walmart in the middle of the night for a bargain is by definition an asshole. But, I don't think for the most part they're the "animals" that you imagine them to be. Something happens to people when they're part of a crowd. Especially when they're a crowd of people with a singular focus and in competition with the others in the crowd. I'd wager hardly any of them knew what happened to this man until they saw it on the news, and that most of them are nice enough people who wouldn't dream of participating in stomping a man to death for "Christmas Joy".

[MikeStl]

64. My thoughts exactly

Kind of an instinctual "everyone around me is doing this so it's ok". That combined with the fact that if you are in a tight crowd of fast moving people and you don't move fast too, your likely to end up on the ground.

[emilyg]

62. Thank you. Good post.

[davidthegnome]

95. Absolutely, 100% agreed

Wal-Mart is criminally negligent, and these stampeding cattle are murderers. I really don't see why people try to defend the indefensible. I hate Wal-Mart as much as anyone else, but these stampeding pieces of shit deserve no sympathy from any of us. Rather, they deserve to spend time in prison.

[JDwho]

71. Thanks for posting this O'Steve. n/t

I hope Walmart is investigated thoroughly and though nothing can bring that young man back, it was Walmart's greed that caused this mishap. The "stampede", it seems, will have to live with themselves. How do you prosecute a stampede? Both are at fault. However, if Walmart had shelled out the money for security, barriers, etc...that young man would be home for Christmas. Sad. Hope the unions really work hard for his memory.

[pop goes the weasel]

74. no professional crowd control

Several people in my family are security guards. Only some of them are trained for crowd control. The ones who don't have the training and experience have turned down jobs at crowd control, because crowd control is very difficult for even people with training. Putting some poor temp stocker out front to do what security specialists tremble to do is willful negligence.

[DoctorMyEyes]

99. I agree

Tasking a seasonal temp worker from maintenance with being anywhere near those doors is just criminally negligent and foolish. Poor guy.

[ColbertWatcher]

85. YES! Wal-Mart is going down, baby! k+r, n/t

[femrap]

108. This situation speaks volumes

about our disgusting culture of consumerism. At least when we read of stampedes in other countries, it has to do with 'religious' events, not a slae on TVs.

My heart goes out for that temp employee....watch...Walfart will try to get out of this by saying he was not their responsibility since he was a temp.

I hate Walfart and anyone at DU that shops there is encouraging oppression.

[WriteDown]

122. True, but what about stampedes at soccer games?

:shrug:

[femrap]

153. Which do I see as silliest?

religion, sports, or consumerism? Maybe it's a 3-way tie. I just came from seeing 'Religulous' and it really makes you think of the silliness involved in religions.

[2QT2BSTR8]

110. Can someone Photoshop this up? Not meaning to make light of this only the truth about Wal Mart.

"I discovered that I was very unprepared for Black Friday, not dressed properly, as you need more padding to avoid all the shopping carts ramming into you," she said. "I feel like that song, 'Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer,' only the reindeer had a Wal-Mart sign on it."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/11/28/blackfri.irpt/index.html

[2QT2BSTR8]

111. Can someone Photoshop this up? Not meaning to make light of this only the truth about Wal Mart.

"I discovered that I was very unprepared for Black Friday, not dressed properly, as you need more padding to avoid all the shopping carts ramming into you," she said. "I feel like that song, 'Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer,' only the reindeer had a Wal-Mart sign on it."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/11/28/blackfri.irpt/index.html

[Infinite Hope]

115. Oh, B.S. You can't protect someone from a mob of nuts. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. You can hire security

[hayu_lol]

120. Whoever unlocked the door...

without having sufficient numbers of trained staff for control is the guilty party. No doubt it was the store manager. A temporary worker would not have had a door key.

[LostinVA]

159. The dead worker unlocked the door

[tomreedtoon]

123. Different tack: did Sam Walton do stuff like this?

Sam Walton has been lionized as the Walt Disney of retail. They still put his name and talk about his principles on Wal-Mart products. My sister met him once, and still amazingly thinks the world of him, she was so dazzled by his presence.

I don't need to elaborate on the obvious changes for the worse since Walton's death. But can anyone here tell me how much it's changed?

Black Friday sales weren't called that back when Walton was alive, and I don't think they did any promotions like the post-Thanksgiving sales of today. But was Walton that indifferent to employee health and welfare, or the safety of his customers?

If someone ever worked for the original Wal-Mart company, I'd just like a little history.

[happydreams]

134. Like some fucking organizational reaction is worth a shit!!

Motherfuck people there is not one fucking thing any organization, President, Pulpit or any other thing is going to do anything about this. This is what this country IS: a bunch of mindless greedy, gluttoness sheep.

[newspeak]

138. yes, it could have been controlled

a couple of years ago, I went to a store for a buy on a garage set up for hubby (I usually don't shop on black friday)--everyone was single file in line which curved around the building, waiting for the store to open. Employees were outside, maintaining a single file of customers with no cut-ins--people filed single file into the door when it opened. There were no people stampeding like a herd of cattle!!

[3.141592653]

141. Disgusting

His rights, his life, and his soul were trampled on, not only by unfeeling people but by the Walmart corporation that cares not one bit about it's employees.

I bet the accountants are already figuring out their loss at having to close for several hours and deducting it off their taxes.

Sick bastards.

[Phred42]

146. The Union is responding - Bet Wal-Mart is quaking in it's boots.

:eyes:

[happygoluckytoyou]

147. WALMART... WHERE EMPLOYEE SAFETY IS JOB 2... RIGHT BEHIND BIG PROFIT ! ! !

[readmoreoften]

152. Next up: One Bouncer Per 2000 fans at a concert is "responsible staffing."

If a concert venue provided ONE person to block the entrance at a rock concert where 2000 fans slept overnight to catch a glimpse of their favorite band, they'd be charged with criminal negligence. But Walmart isn't at fault. :sarcasm:

[unkachuck]

154. "...it rises to a level of blatant irresponsibility..."

....it's managements job to protect the health and safety of it's workers....and if management is putting the health and safety of their workers a risk for profit, then it's the Unions' job to put management profits at risk for their members....

....the United Food and Commercial Workers Union should immediately lock-up every store they can until they get a letter of understanding with shit-mart assuring the health and safety of all their members....

....you shouldn't have to die for a paycheck....

[coolhandlulu]

156. It seems as though the majority of people here are

forming their opinions based on the assumption that people are entitled to a quest for stuff for less. First if a shopper was unsuccessful in obtaining the sale item, they could just go down the road and get the same thing for the same price or a bit more. Second if people really wanted to save money, they would just WAIT until the first of the year and get the item for much less than what is being advertised. But that would require a person to change their whole mindset...and also a little PATIENCE. All parties are to blame here including society. Don't let the shoppers off so easy, because every Black Friday news cycle start with some tragic story at a Walmart. The shoppers who show up at those sales KNOW that there is a possibility that something would pop off that day. Why would someone put themselves in harm's way or in a situation where one would have to deal with other people operating on a subhuman level?
I didn't go shopping on Black Friday for the same reason I don't go shopping on days when it's forcasted that it might snow in Alabama. L'il old church ladies will throw down for a loaf of bread or a pint of milk on those days. For the record, it almost never snows in Bama and when it does it never sticks...so why the brutal behavior????? Human nature.