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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:00 PM
Original message
UN halts Gaza aid over 'thefts'
Source: BBC News

The UN aid agency in Gaza says it has suspended all aid shipments, accusing the Hamas government of seizing hundreds of tonnes of food supplies.

Ten truckloads of flour and rice were taken from the Palestinian side of the Kerem Shalom crossing, the UN's Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) said.

Hamas admitted that a "mistake" was made and says it will return the goods.

But Unwra says deliveries will not restart until it has assurances that such seizures will not happen again.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7875171.stm



One day the Palestinians will come to realize that Hamas isn't their friend. When that day comes they will be on the way towards peace.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, all unrest and theft in Gasa can be traced to "Hamas."
How very convenient - more COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT. :eyes:
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Food can be sold for money to buy arms
Doesn't feed their people to well though.
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Would you suggest that the UN simply continue to hand over supplies to Hamas?
Sure, that's a great idea. Let's just help Hamas to continue to strengthen their stranglehold and maybe even shoot off some more rockets into Israel and start another war.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. That is about right, except it is not collective punishment
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BunkerHill24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. "It’s the Blockade, stupid"
Israel should lift its unlawful blockade on all Palestinian territories. Palestinians can feed themselves without the help of the United Nations.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. There was no blockaid until they started sneaking missles through.
Stupid.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. What Missiles? The only missiles Hamas have launch have been home made.
Some of the components may have been smuggled in (such as the fuel) but as a whole the missiles used by Hamas and the other Palestinians are jut more powerful version of the kit rockets you can buy at your local hobby store (Much Bigger). If you are going to make accusations, try to keep them truthful. Egypt can NOT control what gets through the tunnels, but even Egypt does NOT permit its people to have access to any type of missiles. Thus the missiles HAVE to be home made, Egypt will NOT permit them to exist inside Egypt. What Hamas has been getting are supplies that can be obtained in Egypt, metal pipes that can be use to make rockets. Steel slabs (Design for Vehicles) that can be used as fins, and various components for the rocket engine and bombs themselves (and all you need to make Explosives is electricity and the knowledge how to use it to fix nitrates to make the explosives).

The missiles Hamas have been using are home made, that is acknowledged by everyone. Sometime someone makes a comment that Iran had smuggled in longer range rockets, but none has been used, and those rockets tend to be to big NOT to be noticed by the Egyptian Police. The Egyptian Police seem to have been leaving Hamas smuggle in items into Gaza from Egypt, but NOT things into Egypt and then into Gaza. Egypt does NOT permit such smuggling, let the items be used by the Moslem Brotherhood against the Egyptian Government. Small arms ammo in smuggled in, for Egypt has tons of that stuff and enough soldier who are willing to steal it for Hamas, but larger items are like larger items in the US army, if it is missing SOMEONE will go to Jail. Thus most of the AKs and other small arms in the hands of Hamas was taken into Gaza when the PLO controlled Gaza, and such small arms last for decades. During the recent war, no heavy weapons were reported to be used by Hamas (Nothing bigger then a Machine Gun, except for the rockets and other home made devices).

Remember, all the smuggling is occurring between Egypt and Gaza. The Egyptian people have shown clear signs of massive support for the people of Gaza and Hamas, but the Government of Egypt OPPOSE Hamas. Thus the Egyptian Government wants Hamas defeated as much as Israel, but it dares NOT do anything given the level of support for Hamas in Egypt. The Moslem Brotherhood is believed to be handling the Smuggling into Gaza, and it has had extensive support among the enlisted ranks of the Army AND the junior officers (Thus the success of the Smuggling Tunnels, the guards support Hamas, even as their leader oppose Hamas, the Guards do NOT look for the tunnels but do close them when their are pointed out to them by their superiors). Israel demands Egypt do a better job guarding the border, but Egypt does NOT have the troops who support their government more then their support Hamas. The most loyal troops are kept in Cairo to protect the Government and the tourist trade to the Pyramids (Which is a rich source of revenue for Egypt and thus must be protected). The rest of the country is left with troops who loyalty is questionable. Egypt does NOT dare move its more loyal troops out of Cairo, for fear that they may stop their support of the Government if they have to live in the Conditions that exist on the Gaza border AND that once on patrol they will NOT be available to put down any coup attempt in Cairo. Thus Egypt puts less loyal soldier on the Gaza Border for it dares NOT move its more loyal Soldiers that far from Cairo.

Now, Egypt does NOT permit heavy military equipment outside its own military. Who ever is assigned that piece of equipment is personally responsible for that equipment, If it is lost or stolen the soldier who signed for it MUST pay for the equipment UNLESS his superiors agree that it is a training or combat loss (This is the rule in the US Army, damaged equipment that is turned in for repairs rarely cost the soldier anything, it does if he is determined to be at fault AND the fault is not "Normal" i.e. Gross negligence or deliberate, other losses are just written of). On the other hand lost or Stolen equipment MUST be paid for by the soldier who was responsible for it. Worse, if it is a weapon, the Army will watch you for months afterward to see if you buried it for later recovery (and if they catch you throw you in jail). All Armies do this. Now Ammunition is used up every day and the lost of some small arms ammo is no big deal. On the other hand, anything bigger then a 50 caliber bullet MUST be accounted for, if the missing item will be searched for till it is found OR someone goes to jail. Thus Hamas is probably getting small arms ammunition from Egypt but Nothing bigger.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Where do the Grad missiles come from? nt
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The BM-21, known in the West by its NATO designation "Grad":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21#Iran

Which is a 122mm rocket (That it is diameter), this is about five inch in diameter and about 9 foot long, weight for the rocket is about 18.4 kilogram (about 40 Pounds)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/bm-21.htm

Now the Grad was designed to be fired in a volley of 40 rockets launched from the back of a medium duty truck NOT fired one at a time via a single launcher as ALL of the pictures I have seen on the net.

When operated one as a time, the weapon is going to have the same affect as the home made missiles, more a nuisance then any real effect. The grad is like any other similar type rockets, to be fired one after another for maxi mun effect at one point in a very short time period. That is NOT how Hamas is using them for they do NOT have enough to be fired in a volley.

The reports I have read on the net is the Grads came into Gaza via the Mediterranean Sea. It has a range of 32,700 meters (32 kilometers or about 20 miles or roughly the length between one border of most American Counties to the border on the other side of that county, this tends NOT be remain the true as you hit the Rocky Mountains, it is more an Eastern US Rule). This covers about no more then 1/4 of the area of Israel (and remember that is the Grad's Maximum range IF launched at the border of Gaza in its northwest corner, where the missiles have NEVER been seen).

Sorry we are NOT talking about range of missiles Hezbollah has (and Hezbollah did not launch any missiles SINCE the invasion of Lebanon a few years ago). Sorry one or two Grads FIRED into Israel show the limits of what Hamas has been able to smuggle in.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. And those limits are due to Israeli actions
seems to me you are arguing that the "blockade" is effective in limiting Hamas' power and is in Israel's best interest.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. If Hamas isn't their friend,
why did they get elected to head the government.

Sounds to me like they know what they want, but poor little Israel just can't seem to deal with it, other than bombs and starvation of course.

If Israel can't deal with the legitimately elected government that says more about Israel than it does anyone else.

They could have elected Ariel Sharon ten years ago and it wouldn't have changed a thing.
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richabk Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Let's play devil's advocate...
Bush wasn't necessarily our friend, but he was the head of our government.
Just because someone's in charge doesn't mean that their way is the best.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Bush was never "our" friend.
Our friends put our needs before the wants of others.

Others did well under bush, we didn't.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Stealing needed food from their own people is ok?
I think our value systems are very far apart. Hamas is no friends of it's people just like bush wasn't ever a friend of America.

Being in office means little when you steal food from your own.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. You tell me.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-09 12:58 AM by razors edge
Is this a war?

If so, then Hamas will use all the options that are on the table. Maybe you have heard of that type of strategy before, and found it completely logical, when it implies only the death and destruction of those you don't care for too much.

If it's not a war, then Israel should stop blockading the Palestinians. If I'm not mistaken that is considered an act of war.

Do you think the planned and practiced attack on Iran will have no negative effects on Israeli citizens? Will retaliation, death and destruction be off the table?

No way, it will be the main course, but that does not stop the government of Israel from preparing that table, a does it?

So who is really more willing and eager to kill their own here?








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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. The food was earmarked for Palestinians who were assosiacted with Fatah
the Gaza police had to take it away
:sarcasm:

lock thread
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. They didn't have to take the food and aid.
But anyone who thinks that a government exists who wouldn't sacrifice their own people before themselves is fooling no one but themselves.

How many of our founding fathers gave their sons to the cause of liberty?

Such is the nature of all oligarchs.
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