Texas may let hunters shoot pigs from choppers

[IDemo]

Source: Associated Press

Bill proposed to thin estimated 2 million voracious feral hogs roaming state

updated 4:28 p.m. MT, Thurs., Feb. 19, 2009

MERTZON, Texas - Millions of wild pigs weighing up to 300 pounds have been tearing up crops, trampling fences and eating just about anything in their path in Texas. But now they had better watch their hairy backs.

A state lawmaker is proposing to allow ordinary Texans with rifles and shotguns to shoot the voracious, tusked animals from helicopters.

For years, ranchers in the Lone Star State have hired professional hunters in choppers to thin the hogs' fast-multiplying ranks. Now state Rep. Sid Miller of the Fort Worth area wants to bring more firepower to the task by issuing permits to sportsmen.

"I've had numerous calls and complaints that someone needs to do something," Miller said. "We're losing ground on this problem."

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29287057/

[MrPerson]

1. In the 60's that meant something different.

[Sabriel]

102. Hah! That was good. n/t

[marshall]

106. It still means the same thing in some areas

Times change, but people don't.

[regnaD kciN]

141. Yep, but back then it was a lot harder to get ahold of a chopper...

...otherwise, the Revolution might really have taken place. :evilgrin:

[Prometheus Bound]

142. I just looked up the modern definition on dictionary.com. A lot pf people should be worried.

pig
–noun
1. a young swine of either sex
4. a person of piglike character, behavior, or habits, as one who is gluttonous, very fat, greedy, selfish, or filthy.
5. Slang. a slatternly, sluttish woman
6. Disparaging. a police officer

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

2. well, that should help keep the Bush family

population down somewhat

[Earth Bound Misfit]

65. FLLLSSSSSSSSPPPPPKKKKKK!

**coffee drips from nostrils**

:spray: :rofl:

DUzy!!!

[Idealism]

3. How long till Palin buys a winter home near Mertzon?

I mean, how long until the RNC "leases" a home for her?

[truthisfreedom]

4. Mmm... wild boar!

We have a local French restaurant that has it on the menu...

[Vincardog]

5. Pigs are a dangerous expensive introduces species. They are difficult to hunt and cause great damage...

to property and potentially people. Shooting them from the air is not equivalent to Sarah PayLess blowing up moose from the air.

[Mojorabbit]

7. My husband hunts wild boar

with his bow. They are doing a lot of damage here in Florida. I make sausage and all sorts of things with the meat. I think this proposal is an awful way to do it. Give out more hunting permits. Use the meat for the food banks. Hunting from choppers should not be legitimized in any way in my opinion.

[jobycom]

10. Mertzon is about a thousand miles from nowhere.

This is all ranchland and farmland and no way to get to most of it. It's all private property, too, so getting in and getting out (especially with a hog or two) is troublesome and probably more than a lot of hunters would want.

I'm not really sure what the objection to hunting from helicopters is. I'm vegetarian, so hunting and buying meat at HEB is just about the same to me--still results in a dead animal. Is there some reason hunting from a helicopter is worse? I can see a problem if it results in people over-hunting, but that doesn't seem to be an issue here. I don't understand the issue, I guess.

[sandnsea]

13. Hunters do it in Montana

What is it about Texans that they think none of the rules of god or man apply to them.

[webDude]

32. I'm Texan. What is it about you that makes you feel you have the...

...right to be casually prejudiced about me? What if I cast doubt about you based on where you live, or the color of your skin? Would that be right? Egads indeed, stop and think.

[sandnsea]

34. I'm judging Texan hunting behavior

as described to me by someone from Texas. If it's inaccurate, correct it. If not, my opinion stands.

[TexasProgresive]

40. How about laying out your view of Texas hunters in

a concise manner so that we can condone or correct it.

What was said in post 10 is something that makes Texas hunting different then in most Western states. There is very little public land in Texas it is mostly in private hands and posted - hunting allowed only by the land owner and usually for a price.

There are not permits and no season for wild hogs as they are feral hogs that once were domesticated animals. They do great damage to range and crop lands not to say what they do to a car that hits one. I'd hate to see the aftermath of a Prius and a large adult boar hog.

Last fall I saw at least 60 of these animals crossing the highway. They just plowed through one barbed wire fence, crossed the road and went through the opposing fence. It was a black line going off in the distance.

[snooper2]

51. My buddy was driving his Corolla in Tyler Texas and hit one...

wiped the front end of that car out- had to write the car off. Also put him in the opposite lane ditch, good thing it was at 3:00 in the morning.

I'll try to dig up some pics if I can....

[Paladin]

150. No, You Are In Fact Trashing The Entire State Of Texas, Not Just Hunters (n/t)

[marksmithfield]

124. What a ridiculous statement.

I hereby stand united with my brothers from Texas. What wonderful little state are you from?

[Vincardog]

15. There is no issue. Only a Chance for the PETAfiles to get on their high horses.

Wild pig is not a meat most people want to eat it is too tough and musky. I lived in TX for over 10 years. There are people who hunt with "Hog Dogs" they are some impressive animals. Some people cry that hunting these brutes in inhuman. This aerial hunting is just another chance for the radical animal rights people to get on their high horses (Animals that they would deny us because it degrades them to be subject to human domination).

[Mojorabbit]

30. I make italian and breakfast sausage

from wild boar that you cannot differentiate from a farm raised pig. I don't like a gamey taste to my meat and there are a multitude of ways to make wonderful meals from wild boar.

[Dover]

79. Ditto. I was just served some the other day for the first time and thought it was great!

The friend's brother had shot it on his land in order to get rid of them. But they are also
rapidly becoming a common part of the Texas cuisine in many homes.

[Synicus Maximus]

81. These are not wild boar. They are feral hogs

They are related but totally different animals

[Mojorabbit]

100. The term is used

interchangeably here. I think a lot of the hogs were brought over generations ago and went ferral.

[AngryAmish]

108. What cuts do you use?

There is not much of a wild boar problem in Chicago. Our problems are mostly with cougars.

Anyway...can you smoke a shoulder like a farm raised pig? Is there a loin? I assume the ribs would be too tough.

[Mojorabbit]

125. I don't use the ribs

as there is not enough meat on them to bother with. I render the lard if there is any and this will depend on the time of year.

I don't have a cold smoker so can't do bacon and I grind that area up.

I cut out the tenderloin and cut into medallions and saute with mushrooms and a splash of marsala wine and a little chicken broth and some herbs. It is very tender but smaller than grocery store and can be prepared a gazillion ways.

The loin I take out and prepare as you would a regular pig but it is smaller than one from the grocery store but still tender so can also be sauted. I also make canadian bacon from the loin.

I then cut hams and shoulders. I grind the shoulders and neck meat for sausage. The hams I either cure and then hubby smokes it or else marinate them in Mojo Criollo (which I buy by the gallon) for a few days and then smoke. The leftovers get made into barbeque.

I have this book. http://www.amazon.com/Charcuterie-Craft-Salting-Smoking-Curing/dp/0393058298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235194594&sr=1-1
which has helped a lot but a lot of the recipes come out more salty than I would like. I am experimenting as I go along.

Venison is where the real challenge lies for me. I never had it growing up and am learning to prepare it. It takes me forever to process it into roasts and steaks too compared to a pig but I make a wonderful breakfast sausage from it mixed half and half with ground pork and also use ground venison in chili.

Hubby brings home the pig dressed and leaves it in the cooler on ice for me to cut up into the cuts I want. I have it down to a science now and it does not take me long to do it. He bought me a very big electric grinder so it does not take long to do that.

[GoneOffShore]

138. Take a look at the most recent issue of The Art of Eating

http://www.artofeating.com/index.html

You might find it in a high end book store. The new issue is about charcuterie and has some great recipes for pig.

And they talk about using saltpeter instead of nitrites which apparently gives a better flavor profile. You might also look for Fergus Henderson's book - The Whole Beast Nose to Tail Eating.

http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Beast-Nose-Tail-Eating/dp/0060585366/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235276981&sr=8-1

[Mojorabbit]

154. Thanks! nt

[ashling]

37. Peta taking potshots at hunters from high flyin' horses?

:shrug:

[Vincardog]

16. There is no issue. Only a Chance for the PETAfiles to get on their high horses.

Wild pig is not a meat most people want to eat it is too tough and musky. I lived in TX for over 10 years. There are people who hunt with "Hog Dogs" they are some impressive animals. Some people cry that hunting these brutes in inhuman. This aerial hunting is just another chance for the radical animal rights people to get on their high horses (Animals that they would deny us because it degrades them to be subject to human domination).

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. I don't have a problem with hunting (for food, not trophy), but this should be illegal

Shooting animals from helicopters is murder, IMO. The animal doesn't have a chance. Do it from the ground, and if you can't handle that, don't hunt. At least on the ground, the animal has a fighting chance.

[Kali]

69. ever shot a gun from a helicopter?

I haven't but it can't really be easier than standing still. I would think the only advantage is spotting and following. I don't really know though.

I have heard these pigs are a real problem.

[Chan790]

157. If the technique is anything like aerial hunting of wolves...

there's no sport involved into the shooting aspect of it as they chase the wolves until they're exhausted then they shoot them when run-down. Yeah, it's harder to shoot a target from a helicopter than standing on solid ground, but it's a lot easier to shoot anything from a moving vehicle when its' not moving or is exhausted.

[jobycom]

76. How does it have any chance?

This is what I don't get. Most people on this thread eat meat, or at least I don't recognize many names as the vegetarians I know. So what's the difference between shooting an animal from a helicopter and slamming it with a sledgehammer after torturing it in a warehouse? The animal doesn't have a chance in any way. Actually, it has more chance from a helicopter than a slaughterhouse.

As for hunting on foot, why would that give the animal more chance? A helicopter can't sneak up on an animal, and if the helicopter is moving it's harder to shoot than on foot. The advantage is only that the helicopter can go places the hunters can't on foot or in vehicles.

So why is it worse to shoot a pig from a helicopter than from a blind, or a truck, or on foot? People act like the animal has a chance to fight back, or that there's such a thing as a "sporting chance." The animal is being killed, there's no sport on the animal's side. It's only for the sport of the hunter.

And I'm not saying eating meat is wrong or hunting is wrong, I'm just looking at it as an outsider. Why is killing an animal for pleasure (whether the pleasure of hunting or eating) better in one way than another for the animal?

[damntexdem]

96. No, with vermin, do it the most-effective way.

Pork choppers are fine with me.

[marksmithfield]

126. This isn't hunting

This is more population control. and it beats walking.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. I agree it isn't hunting

It's killing for the sake of killing.

[AndrewP]

85. Always love the anti-PETA posts around here.

Democratic "Underground" my ass.

[marksmithfield]

127. Not everyone

is a thrilled with PETA and its actions as you may think. I for one find them fools at least and terroristic at the worst.

[Forkboy]

159. "terroristic at the worst."

:eyes:

[mbperrin]

47. Actually about 30 miles from San Angelo and 200 from San Antonio.

Hunting leases there are big business.

I'm no hunter, but my daughter lives there, just thought a couple facts might be in order.

[jobycom]

52. San Angelo is a thousand miles from nowhere, too.

It's an expression, I didn't mean literally 1000 miles. It's a very rural area, with a lot of places far off-road for pigs to hang out that hunters can't easily get to. It's a world away from the San Antonio/Austin metro areas, where I live.

[mbperrin]

67. San Antonio and Austin "area"?

You mean the sticks around two wannabe metropoli?

Ever been to Mertzon?

Didn't think so. The area swarms with hunters who somehow pay several thousand dollars each to hunt every year, and yet they manage to somehow get into and out of the area with satisfactory results to themselves.

Soon as you get tired of that ersatz BBQ they serve in your neck of the state, come to west Texas for the real thing. I'd recommend Sam's in Midland or Rose in Odessa.

[jobycom]

74. What the heck are you talking about?

First, yes, I've been through Mertzon and that whole area. And who said anything about "sticks" around Austin and San Antonio? I was pointing out that Mertzon is a long way from the city.

Read the thread, keep up.

Oh yeah, and why would I eat BBQ anywhere? :shrug:

[mbperrin]

93. I'M the one who mentioned the sticks! Keep up, ya hick!

Your refusal to eat the national food of Texas only further disqualifies you from participating in any discussion of things Texan!



(And whatever in the world happened to anyone's sense of humor about being spoofed without having to have it labeled in advance?)

Anyway, whatever, I quit, I just thought I'd get in a bit of fun on Friday, but no room for that in this thread.

I bid you good day.

[jobycom]

133. Austin is an island in the sea of Texas.

We pride ourselves on being different. Those who eat BBQ in Austin usually take pride in the fact that they are rejecting Austin, thereby embracing its attitude more completely.

[Javaman]

162. eating BBQ in Austin is rejecting Austin?

is that what you are saying?

[jobycom]

163. Yep.

Austin's slogan is "Keep Austin Weird," so the Austinites that hate that weirdness try to do mainstream Texan stuff to prove they ain't one of us vegetarian liberal hippie commies.

Their slogan is "Keep Out of Austin, Weirdo!"

[Javaman]

165. oh lord...

First of all, I share this town with you. second of all, Austin hasn't been weird for a good 20 years, obviously you haven't lived here all that long. Third of all "the live music capital of the US" is total BS, it hasn't been that way since forever. 6th street and it's complete bastardization is nothing but really bad cover bands that can't play a lick at over priced wannabe chain clubs that cater to the lowest common denominator fratbrat. The 6th street of live music vanished about 12 years ago. The death was complete when the Hard Rock moved in. Thank god that failed.

I eat BBQ and like it very much. I'm sorry if the consumption of dead animals, so yummy, offends you, but your definition of what keeps Austin "weird" is slanted to say the very least.

You are, what we real Austinites call, elitist. These are the groups of folks that moved here after 1990. Is that you?

And if you are one of those "vegetarian liberal hippie commies" that you say you are, then you must also be one of those no showering Patchouli wearing drag rats that hang by UT that like to knock people who have a life. Or do you shower? That would be very unvegetarian-liberal-hippie-commies-keep-Austin-weird of you.

[jobycom]

166. Whatever, poser.

I've been here since 1990, work for one of the oldest businesses in Austin owned by a family that's been around here since the late 1800s, and am quite well tied-in enough to know of what I speak. Get over your big, bad self--if you have to look back 20 years to argue things aren't what they used to be, then you got some catching up to do. I don't give a damn what it was like 20 years ago, I was commenting on today. Adjust. Evolve. Live.

And don't work as a psychic. You're a terrible guesser.

[Javaman]

167. yup, pretty much what I expected. all hat and no cattle.

just another wanna be. have fun with that.

[Why Syzygy]

144. I havin a hoot reading y'all.

Maybe you gotta stand back. :rofl:

[marksmithfield]

128. Because BBQ is the food

of the gods!!!

[jobycom]

134. LOL! Well, my gods are vegetarian!

:rofl:

[Why Syzygy]

143. lol

:spray:

:rofl:

[sandnsea]

12. I agree

It's sickening. And if you read the article, the ranchers are charging a fee to hunt on their land, so it's their own damn fault they're overrun in the first place. They want to shoot them from the sky and then just let them lay out there and rot while people are going hungry. It's disgraceful.

[jobycom]

18. Hunters aren't exactly light on the land.

Landowners charge fees because otherwise hunters would overrun their land, cut their fences, drive across fields with four wheel drives, and likely shoot up the property, if not outright endanger livestock and even people. Helicopters would do less damage, so of course landowners would prefer that.

I still haven't gotten a response as to why hunting from a helicopter is worse than hunting in any other way, or worse than a slaughterhouse. I'm sure you've heard the same horror stories about meat production as I have. Animals deliberately tortured for sport and all that. What is worse about helicopter hunting? I'm asking, I don't know.

[sandnsea]

22. Egad.

If they do that in Texas then that's a problem with ETHICS in TEXAS.

Hunters don't act like that in other places.

And the reason you can't figure out what is wrong with slaughtering animals from the sky is because you think those Texas hunters racing across the land in four wheel drives is NORMAL. I'ts NOT.

[jobycom]

28. Again, no answer.

I've been around hunters my whole life, in Mississippi, Texas, New Mexico, and even hunters from California. They all have to get to the place they're hunting, and if there are no roads--and there aren't in the places we're talking about--they drive. If you are telling me that hunters in other places jog forty miles through fields, and carry deer or hogs back out on their backs, leaving no trace, I'm going to ask for videotape of that. Maybe Rambo, but most aren't that fit.

Why is hunting from a helicopter worse than killing animals in other ways?

[sandnsea]

29. There are roads

And no they do not race off across ranch land, not if they ever want to be welcomed back to hunt. What do you think they do with elk, which weigh significantly more than your hogs?

Do you find anything wrong with canned hunts, or are those okay with you too?

[jobycom]

49. No earthly idea what you think you're arguing, but you still haven't responded to my post.

Why is hunting from a helicopter worse than killing an animal in some other way?

And we aren't talking about wherever you live, we are talking about the area around Mertzon, or Texas in general. Land in Texas is privately owned, unless it has been donated or bought by the state, in which case it is usually a park. To hunt, you have to hunt on someone's property. There are no roads on people's property unless the person builds them (with some exceptions where a county or the state build roads through a person's land, but the land beside the road is still private). So the only way a hunter has to get to the hunt is across the land. A landowner who wants to allow hunting can build and maintain roads and hunting camps, and take his land out of use for crops or livestock, but he's unlikely to do so for free--that's why he charges a fee for the hunting.

As for canned hunts, that's another subject. You haven't answered my first, which obviously means you don't have an answer to my first.

[Why Syzygy]

145. Since there are millions of the hogs.

And they aren't endangered, I absolutely get your point. Why, indeed. Probably just so the yanks can have something else to feel superior about. Texans get bashed as much as Christians do on DU.
Most people probably don't realize how spread out we are.

[ixion]

43. from a purist standpoint, hunting from a helicopter lacks sport

That is, the hunter sits on his ass and fires from a safe distance.

True hunting, as I was raised to do it, means that you go out and work for it, and give the prey a sporting chance.

And you always, always, always eat what you kill.

That would be my answer to you.

[jobycom]

50. That's a good answer, but they aren't doing this for the sport.

They are trying to rid the area of destructive animals, so sportsmanship rules aren't the issue. If your goal is to kill a lot of these pigs, why is it worse to do it from a helicopter than on foot or four-wheeler? Isn't it about the same for the dead pig? For regular hunting, a helicopter would give an unfair advantage, which would lead to over-hunting and would upset the rules for land-bound hunters, so I can see it as an issue in terms of maintaining balance. But their goal here is the opposite.

You see what I'm asking? There's no pleasant way to kill, for the animal. I was raised the same way you were--eat what you kill, don't waste, and all. I don't hunt or eat meat, but I don't have a problem with hunting (for others) because I don't have a problem with meat eating (for others). But it always seems hypocritical to me for someone to trash hunters while eating a hamburger, or worse, eating half a hamburger and tossing the rest in the trash. At least a hunter has a connection, even an honesty, to the source of his or her food. So I'm not critical of hunting--although of course there are hunters I might be critical of, but that's a different subject.

I'm just not sure why killing an animal from a helicopter evokes such horror, while killing one in a slaughterhouse doesn't evoke a second thought. And I'm not saying there is no difference, I'm just saying I don't know what the difference is. Which is why I'm asking a serious question. Is it worse to kill pigs from a helicopter--assuming in this case that the goal is to kill as many of them as possible, not to sport hunt for food--than in the old-fashioned way? I'm squeamish about all methods, but I'm asking about this one in particular, because it sets people off as it does.

[GinaMaria]

123. city girl question

Why from choppers? Is there some benefit to doing it this way? I wondered the same about the ariel shooting of wolves. Aren't these animals edible? Can't they be consumed?

[jobycom]

135. Access. A lot of these areas don't have roads. Plus,

in Texas almost all land is private, and the little bit of public land was once private, so it's basically owned by the government instead of being public. State parks, and stuff like that. So, to get deep into the woods, you have to walk or drive across private land. Not all owners are thrilled about hunters crossing their lands. So helicopters get you to places you couldn't otherwise go.

And once there, the helicopter gives you an aerial platform to shoot from, and since these areas don't have trails, it lets you follow the poor beast.

Plus there aren't a lot of tall trees or what you'd call forest in this part of Texas. You couldn't hunt in a forest that way, obviously. So it's not just a hunting thing, or a rural thing. It's specific to certain places. There are a lot of helicopters in west Texas. Some of the bigger ranches even use them to feed their cattle. There's a Texas cliche about flocking to something "like cattle to a feed copter," because the cattle flock to the feed helicopters and stand around looking up to them.

[damntexdem]

98. So what? The idea shouldn't be to foster sport, rather to eliminate wild pigs.

Now, if you can convince someone that shooting the pigs from a pork chopper is sport, that is just a useful way to get someone to do it for you.

[Occulus]

140. As someone pointed out above, this is *not* hunting

It's population control, there is no natural predator, and feral hogs are not a thing to mess around with. They are dangerous- they're feral. They need to be put down before they start killing people.

[hamsterjill]

59. Lifelong Texan here and shooting from helicopters is NOT how we do things

I grew up on a ranch in Texas and I'm familiar with hunting, population control, etc.

There is a certain amount of "honor" involved in hunting animals. Or at least there used to be. For example, when my father hunted, he's been known to stay out all night tracking a deer that he may have wounded, but didn't kill. A hunter does not leave its prey to suffer! And there were very few times that he had to do this because he was an accomplished shot who knew what he was doing - not some rich kid from the city who just wanted to shoot at something. He killed for food and we made use of the animal and respected it for giving us sustenance.

When someone talks about killing anything from a helicopter, I have visions of Viet Nam. It's repulsive and there has GOT to be a better way.

It's sad that Texas has been overtaken by the repulsive rich who have no respect for the land or the land's inhabitants.

[WolverineDG]

155. Hunters don't act like that in other places

Ya sure about that? I sincerely doubt that hunters in every other place besides Texas are on their best behavior at all times. :eyes:

dg

[riverdeep]

35. Some of it deals with image, some is practical.

Hunting is already seen as unsportsmanly, since the animal can't shoot back, and shooting from a copter amplifies that image. On a practical and related level, it makes canned hunts more accessible. It may make it more likely for unscrupulous hunters to just leave an injured animal out in the wilderness instead of checking to make sure the kill was sound. Lastly, it may cause undue stress to species that are present in the area that aren't targeted.

[marksmithfield]

129. Oh boy

You have a real problem with your perception of hunters. Try it sometime, you may enjoy yourself.

[Chulanowa]

19. Come to think of it...

Wouldn't a dead and rotting three hundred pound hog - or perhaps hundreds of them, if hte plan goes through - be more of a problem than the living ones are?

[Vincardog]

25. No the remaining hogs would eat the bodies

[Mojorabbit]

31. vultures would take care of that. nt

[TexasProgresive]

62. Why is it the ranchers' fault?

We have these things all over south central Texas and they are not my fault or my neighbors. It is our fields that these non-native feral hogs are destroying. What many do around here is to trap them and shot them in the trap and yes, they often let them rot because they meat here is not very tasty unless you finish them on grain after trapping. The consume too many acorns in these oak forests which makes them bitter.

[damntexdem]

97. Wow, I didn't realize that they were shooting the ranchers from the sky and letting them rot.

I don't go along with feeding dead ranchers to the hungry, though -- their bodies likely contain too many industrial chemicals.

;-)

[Tartiflette]

45. In NZ they shoot wild deer from helicopters (or at least, used to)

They are an introduced species (as opposed to Moose in Alaska!) that do untold damage to the very sensitive native flora. The area they inhabit is rugged and mountainous, and the hunters can kill a lot more from the air in a shorter period of time than can be killed hunting by foot. I think it is regrettable that this occurs, but nonetheless, when one is aware of just how much damage is being done to a unique environment, then I think it becomes a matter of the least worst option. And having experienced first-hand the damage feral pigs can do to land I'm not convinced that in all cases hunting from choppers should be banned.

[The Brethren]

21. Pigs are intelligent, complex animals.

And because their physiology is so close to ours, science and medicine are using them for organ transplants for humans as well as medical discoveries for us. And it is equivalent to Palin blowing up moose and wolves from the air.



Know what you're paying for. The Stimulus Plan ("American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009"): Orig. House version -- http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pdf , House spreadsheet -- http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pV-c6t5fOVmNorqMpHvnCMw ; Senate version -- http://appropriations.senate.gov/News/2009_02_02_The_American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009.pdf ; and Senate compromise -- http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1 , Text and $$$ details of Senate compromise -- http://appropriations.senate.gov/News/2009_02_08_UPDATED_Appropriations_Provisions_of_American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act.pdf?CFID=4043629&CFTOKEN=40573040 . In addition to -- http://readthestimulus.org/amdth1.pdf , along with -- http://www.readthestimulus.org/ . Final version, Feb. 13th, 1500 pgs. worth -- http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/arra_public_review/ , more details on the final version -- http://www.taxpayer.net/resources.php?category=&type=Project&proj_id=1913&action=Headlines%20By%20TCS , including spending -- http://cbs4denver.com/national/Web.government.accountability.2.937188.html

[Vincardog]

27. And it is equivalent to Palin blowing up moose and wolves from the air. 1 moose are indigenous

hogs are introduced. Native people rely on moose as part of their survival diet not true of Texas wild hogs. How is it equivalent?

[Pavulon]

80. They kill sea turtle nests and native animals

They are no limit animals in SC and I have punched the ticket on quite a few with a 22-250. They are smart enough to realize when you shoot one. The rest leave.

It costs thousands of dollars an hour to operate a helicopter, not like every idiot is going to be out doing this.

[damntexdem]

99. No, it's not. The pigs are exotics, and are hurting the environment.

The moose and wolves are native, and fit with the environment.

[Maine-ah]

46. wolves.

She hunts wolves in helicopters, not moose.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. How many ordinary Texans have helicopters?

I'm just saying. :shrug:

David

[jobycom]

11. Most of us. It's how we get from the ranch house to the oil wells.

:rofl:

Seriously, though, I wonder if this bill is as much about culling the pig population as about creating a new sport to bring money to the region. Guided helicopter hunts--you know there are hunters who would pay for that.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Is the pig population a problem?

It's kind of strange the only people I've seen "hunt" out of helicopters are wildlife and fisheries officers who are told to go out and cull a certain number of animals. I don't believe I've ever heard of a state allowing it for civilians, of course that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

David

[jobycom]

48. I don't really know.

Pigs are hard to kill, so they probably don't have a lot of natural attrition, and they aren't big hunting game. So maybe.

I wouldn't think it would be cheap to hunt out of helicopters, which is why I wonder if they bill is an attempt to make money for someone.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. I'm sure someone will make money off of it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

56. In Alaska, they hunt wolves out of helicopters, thanks to Gov. Palin

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. How did she do that?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. She legalized it

Governors can do that sort of thing you know.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

103. The Alaska Board of Game approved several aerial wolf control programs in 2003.

By what authority did she legalize it in 2003?

David

[Why Syzygy]

146. Here.

http://www.eyeonpalin.org/

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/02/04/sarah-palin-blasts-defenders-of-wildlife-for-new-anti-palin-campaign/

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

152. Thanks but that doesn't answer my question.

[BrightKnight]

122. Yes, there are 1.5 million feral hogs in TX w/ expanding population and range.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/nuisance/feral_hogs/

"The feral hog has managed to survive, adapt, and increase their numbers despite attempts at population control. While it is possible to keep the population in check with continuous control, it is highly unlikely to eradicate a hog population within an established range."


"Some diseases can be transmitted to livestock and wildlife.

Various diseases of wild hogs include pseudorabies, swine brucellosis, tuberculosis, bubonic plague, tularemia, hog cholera, foot and mouth disease, and anthrax. Internal parasites include kidney worms, stomach worms, round worms and whipworms. Liver flukes and trichinosis are also found in hogs. External parasites include dog ticks, fleas and hog lice."

[Regret My New Name]

164. hehe

[JeffR]

8. Presumably nowhere near Crawford

one would assume.

[cliffordu]

9. The ones in Texas are a hybrid ot the big German hogs brought in for sport in the

1800s and the native Javelinas.

They can get to be HUGE (I've heard 300-400 lbs) and tear the shit out of crops.....It is my understanding that they will kill and eat calves and newborn sheep.


Because they are parasite ridden, I wouldn't eat one, but people do.....and all the best to them.

[S_B_Jackson]

14. Have hunted feral hogs a couple of times....

the ranch where my niece boards and trains her horse has had an intermintent problem with hogs for several years. The last two years the the owner's given my brother and I written authorization to eradicate any found on her property. We just killed them and contacted the county solid waste dept.

As you say, they're parasite ridden and in the heat, if you don't butcher the animals almost immediately, the meat turns rancid fast...

[cliffordu]

20. It's my understanding that they are considered vermin by the state game

people.

I was going to go hunting them when I lived in Austin - I had a really nice Marlin 45/70 guide gun I wanted to try out...

But I won't kill anything I won't eat, and after I heard about the worms and parasites I passed.

Sure liked that guide gun, though.....I got some Buffalo Bore 405 grain big game ammo -

Almost an ounce of lead moving at 2000fps.....Yummy.

[S_B_Jackson]

115. Correct. They are a non-native, destructive species

and no hunting permits are required. The tearing up of land that they do can prove hazardous to horse's delicate legs...and the property owner, after having to put down an elder gelding who'd broken a leg, asked my brother and I if we'd be willing to take care of the problem in exchange for a months' free stabling for my nieces' horse.

A property owner may kill them on his own land or on another's land (assuming permission of the other property owner of course). The only real issue is an awareness of local ordinances concerning the dischare of firearms.......I know several who use bows/crossbows inside city limits.

Not really "hunting", I guess, a more proper term would be exterminating. Due to the proximity of residential neighborhoods, my brother and I used pistols loaded in .357 Sig, otherwise I'd probably have used a deer rifle (Savage 99EG). Still, the pistols did the job quite well....we each got a boar and a sow and he got several choats.

[Kali]

72. I don't think javalinas can cross with true hogs.

Feral pigs and true European boars can cross and I think are even the same species. Domestic pigs will revert to the wild type pretty quickly if I recall correctly - just s few generations.

[cliffordu]

73. You're probably right - all I REALLY remember is that the feral hogs down there now are

an unintended consequence of bringing the large European hogs and letting them breed with the local swine...I was thinking that local being the Javalena.....

[Xicano]

17. For some strange reason the thread title remined me of Fritz the Cat

:smoke:


sample: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1jfji_fritz-the-cat-1972-part-2_fun

PS: I hope this sample isn't a violation... If so my apologies.

[Politicalboi]

23. I blew up the john!

I haven't seen that movie in years.

[Xicano]

26. Ahhhh, the good old days huh?

The 70's were my favorite. Except the polyester.. :)

[Kablooie]

24. I thought shooting police was illegal.

[Judi Lynn]

33. That manly Rep. Sid Miller'd better make damned sure he stays in his house

on the days they have their extra special, genius-level recreation, and keeping their state safe, killing pigs from "choppers."

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/04G3gTedGF3Sz/340x.jpg

[riverdeep]

36. Yet another case of fixing the problems that were really caused by humans.

Yes, it was a long time ago to us, but not so long in nature's terms. Lesson, if we have so much of an impact, we better be more careful of how we act in the future.

[slackmaster]

54. Unfortunately restoring the wild populations of wolves, jaguars, and mountain lions wouldn't work

Too many people, too many roads, too many livestock animals.

[OneBlueSky]

39. can't we just shoot far-right Republicans from choppers and be done with it? . . .

that was a joke, Agent Mike . . . a joke . . .

(just coverin' my ass) . . .

[No Elephants]

41. Quick! Name the biggest pig in Texas today!

[quickesst]

42. Hunting....

.....from my observations, and living in a state where it is a way of life, is something many DUers should avoid commenting on. Commenting on something one is totally ignorant of only results in increased perceptions of igorance. I'm not a hunter, but I am pro-hunting. That's because I choose not to base my knowledge of hunting in such simple terms as "But, they're killing Bambi!!", or in this case Porky. Thanks.
quickesst

[Enthusiast]

44. Hunting wild hogs,

an invasive species, from the air is not the equivalent to hunting Alaskan wolves from the air. But I do agree with the poster above in that hunting from the air is never 'fair chase' hunting. Hogs are a problem in many states. Hogs in the S.E. are huge and dangerous. And they are destroying native wildlife habitat in the Appalachian Mountains.

[slackmaster]

53. That sounds like fun

Wild boar outbreaks are sometimes a problem for agriculture in California too. They're the only regulated game animal for which the state Department of Fish and Game sometimes declares an open season.

[Crowman1979]

57. Chopper hunting is for P*****s!

Those fat hunters need the exercise.

[Pavulon]

87. Culling

this is not really hunting but population control. I believe they are no limit no season animals (vermin) and destroy native species. So using helicopters allows people to drastically reduce the population by killing them in groups.

goats on Galapagos. same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrFIcWzSEo

[DemoTex]

58. That would amount to armed civilian aircraft in US airspace.

What will the DHS and TSA have to say about that? The armed "hunter" could hijack the helicopter and have it flown somewhere to wreak havoc.

:wtf:

[Pavulon]

88. OH6..

From video I have seen you basically have one guy with an AR15 and crew. The cabin space in that aircraft does not allow a back seat passenger to point a weapon forward. I would assume there would be a 2 man crew.

Last time I got on a business jet no one even looked in my stuff. They just asked for a signature saying I did not have weapons or dope.

[Doremus]

60. Glad I don't live there. A bunch of amateur hunters flying around looking for something to shoot,

Cheney x 10. Katie bar the door and get to the fruit cellar.

[sofa king]

68. You know, you're on to something there.

For a long time now, armed forces around the world have noticed how much more willing people are to kill other people if the killing is separated by a) long distance; b) some sort of visual separation between the killer and the target, such as a scope, a screen, a windshield, or a complex sight; c) a dominant position such as a fortified position or heights.

The bluffs at Omaha beach were largely manned by Polish and Ukranian conscripts (and two of the unluckiest Koreans in recorded history), forced into service with the Germans and placed in France where they were much less likely to desert. Those conscripts had virtually no animosity for the Allies, and surrendered at the first opportunity. But until then, they were manning machine guns and light artillery and had all three of those factors working in favor of killing, and kill they did.

Put a few drunken shit-kickers in a helicopter with rifles, and sooner or later one of 'em is going to take down a human. It will seem like a funny thing to do at the time, and the people who do it won't go through the same anguish and self-examination that eye-to-eye murderers often experience, so they'll be much more willing to publicly fight the charges. So I expect we'll be seeing our first helicopter murder trials on Court TV within five years of the passage of such laws.

[Why Syzygy]

147. It would have to be an absolute misfire

at a completely inappropriate time.

There aren't going to be humans milling around among the pigs on the ground.

[Paladin]

149. And Just How The Hell Do You Know That?

People may not be mingling within herds of feral hogs, but in a good portion of the Texas Hill Country, people are going to be in close proximity to those animals. And we're talking about amateur yahoos blasting away from a copter? What might happen when a 7mm Magnum bullet careens into a limestone boulder instead of a hog? Sorry---I hunted for years in Texas, and I know how many well-armed incompetent assholes are out there. If it's population control they're after, the Parks & Wildlife people ought to handle it......

[Why Syzygy]

153. Well, Mertzen isn't in the Hill Country

for starters. However, I do agree that not just anyone should be tasked with the job. They need to have weapons and target experience.

[Myrina]

70. Indeed!!

:hide:

[sofa king]

66. Why yes, I used to do that often in Grand Theft Auto: Vice City

Sometimes the police cars would fly hundreds of feet through the air.

[alfredo]

71. This type of chopper?

[KamaAina]

75. Great. Another pork-barrel project.

:eyes:

But seriously, how long before "wild meat", as we would call it out here where feral pigs have been established for generations, turns up on the menu in Texas prisons, shelters, or schools?

[Dover]

77. dupe..n/t

[Dover]

78. The 'hog' situation is pretty bad. However if they are going to kill them then they should also

require hunters to use or sell all that meat. It's a sin to JUST kill and leave all that potential food out to rot.

And what would be the result of leaving dead carcasses out in fields? Would that
boost the numbers of some other animal which would then have to be culled as well?

[Pavulon]

82. Sea turtles?

pigs root and destroy bird and turtle nests. SCDNR considers them vermin. Leave them where you drop them.

They are invasive and destructive. Using a helicopter circumvents the problem of dropping one and the rest running.

I assume they are using a stoner based semi auto with telescopic sights to drop them.

The goal is to drastically reduce their numbers, that will certainly do it. I believe most coastal states will grant license to use suppressed rifles to do the same thing.

It was done on galapagos with both pigs and goats with helicopters.

This is the gist of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrFIcWzSEo

[Dover]

83. I understand the problem and the goal pretty well.

But why not figure out some way to butcher them too? Why no incentives for that?

I do wonder what will come to feed on all that rotting meat left in fields. Coyote, foxes and wolves?

If so, will their populations grow and need to be culled as well? I just wonder if this has been
thought through. Many such 'plans' are not, which is how we end up in these situations.

[Pavulon]

86. Not sure how tasty they would be...

The ones I shot were in wetlands area. Tie a boat up to something and pop one. Move to a different place to get another. It would be more trouble than it was worth to actually get the carcass. The problem is their behavior (rooting) is not done by native animals. Foxes do not have the same impact as a feral pig.

This has been done to destructive populations before. Not really anything new. You can check the results on the Galapagos for more info.

Most people can not afford that type of trip anyway.

[Dover]

89. A couple of personal observations.

First, I've seen a field that has been 'rooted' and also has been a playground for hogs (after a rain).
I will have to do more research on the good and bad of that activity. Obviously it wouldn't make farmers happy (or sea turtles), but I've seen a field after cows have been through it in wet weather and it looks about the same. Disturbing and turning the top soils up through that activity may or may not be desirable for native grasslands. The rooting of certain native plants may be less desirable.

I also just tasted some feral hog for the first time that a friend's brother shot and slaughtered and was surprised how good it was. I don't know if that goes for all feral hogs, but at least this one was definitely a food that is palatable and could conceivably feed people if we could figure out how to accomplish that on a larger scale.

At any rate, I realize the feral hog problem has gotten way out of hand and something has to be done.
I just haven't been privy to what has been discussed and what alternative options to this 'sky hunt'
were presented. As I said, I'm just concerned that any plan be comprehensive enough to examine all the consequences.

Here's one site that I'll be reading. There is a section at the end on aerial hunting.
http://icwdm.org/Publications/pdf/Feral%20Pig/Txferalhogs.pdf

[Pavulon]

92. Some logistical thoughts

I have never fired a weapon from an aircraft. I have fired them from a vehicle and can say trying to hit things is difficult. It took time to figure it out on a coaxial machine gun and a stationary target. Keep in mind it was belt fed, tracers were in the mix, and was fully automatic (until it jammed). And you were paying for the ammo.

Other than golf I can not think of something more difficult technically to do than hit a running pig with a semi-automatic rifle. A 240golf maybe to take the frustration out of the event..

I can not see this happening for less than 2 grand for a half day.

I see your point and it is quite valid.

[Dover]

94. I don't think aerial hunting would be feasible for any but the largest land holders

One would have to determine that the cost of damages was a much bigger financial liability (or was projected to be if the hog population grew) than the cost of a helicopter hunt (which that article I linked to suggests starts at around $300 an hour and employs a professional marksman). So your 2 grand figure is probably right on the money. This is not a job for the unskilled or the any but the wealthiest.
However, I can see 'helicopter hunts' attracting those wealthy guys and being lucrative for big land owners...whether or NOT the hog situation is truly a problem. So some will no doubt exploit this
green light on aerial hunting.

[BrightKnight]

120. It's Illegal to hunt anything in TX without the permission of the land owner but

many land owners want them removed. Getting permission from the land owners will be easy. Ferrel hogs can spread disease to other livestock. They can also be destructive to the land.

[Why Syzygy]

148. I read upthread (later post #s)

that they are infested with parasites, and that the remainder of the herd will eat the flesh remains.
They eat anything.

[AndrewP]

84. I lived in Texas for 7 years. Honestly, they should require a passport to have to go there

It's a whole other world.

I tend to not get too uptight about what a State that has voted for George W. Bush 4 times thinks.

[Paladin]

151. Do You Care About A State With 3.5 Million Residents Who Voted For Obama?

No, I didn't think you would. Jerk......

[Snazzy]

90. and if pigs could fly?

What then you brilliant Texans, what then?

[Dover]

91. LOL!

Perhaps they'd migrate North...lol.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. Anti air-pig weapons would be deployed. n/t

[damntexdem]

95. Will their rides be called pork choppers?

Well, it shouldn't be boaring. ;-)

[spoony]

101. lol

:D

[wickerwoman]

104. If this is about population control, they should hire professionals

who know how to cull the herd ethically. Isn't job creation the order of the day? The Texas state Fisheries and Game department should arrange for this and then distribute the meat to the school lunch program or to feed the homeless. That's how they handle the feral pig problem in New Zealand.

My main problem with it is the likelihood of accidents occurring (seems like it would be easier to shoot a person or endangered animal or livestock from a helicopter than from the ground and then leave the scene with no evidence) and the likelihood that injured animals will be left to die painfully instead of tracked. There should be some kind of accountability built into the right to shoot your gun off a helicopter at living things. And if possible it should be left to pros and built into a job creation/feed the hungry type program.

[Zorra]

A few years from now, people may need to hunt those pigs for meat to feed their families.

Maybe even 6 months from now. Our economy is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.

I don't imagine the pork from the pigs that will be shot from helicopters will be used as for food for people.

[Zorra]

105. A few years from now, people may need to hunt those pigs for meat to feed their families.

Maybe even 6 months from now. Our economy is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.

I don't imagine the pork from the pigs that will be shot from helicopters will be used as for food for people.

[superconnected]

114. How many do you think will be able to afford helicopters?

I'm against hunting animals by air.

[BrightKnight]

109. Whatever it takes to get rid of them. - n/t

[IDemo]

110. I have this image of an "America's Most Wanted" helicopter chase:

"This porcine bad boy thought he could forage his way clean across the Lone Star state. But as you can see, the only foraging going on around him
now is going to be around the dinner table by the fine Texas men who brought this pillaging porker down!"

[GinaMaria]

111. Is there a specific reason/benefit for wanting to do this from choppers?

Are they edible? We have a lot of hungry people these days. This might really be a help to those who are struggling for groceries.

[Ilsa]

131. I wouldn't want to field dress or eat one. And they are dangerous

animals when charging. If you don't have the right caliber weapon, you might just piss them off. Of course, "hunting" from a helo has its own risks.

[superconnected]

112. Doesn't Bush own a pig farm? Is he going all Palin now?

[goforit]

132. PAlin ??? That pig with lipstick????

[Ilsa]

113. Whi is going to clean up the STINKING, ROTTING CARCASSES?

My hubby's family has had alot of problems with wild hogs on their property. They'd love to kill them, but they have no place to haul them off to, or the physical strength to do it. These aren't little pigs. These hogs can weigh several hundred pounds each.

If hunters start killing them from helos, then someone better clean up the mess if there are any houses within a hundred yards. The vultures will help, but it sure will take awhile.

I'm surprised some veterinarians haven't been able to figure out a way to give them birth control.

[geek tragedy]

116. Buzzards and coyotes. n/t

[Ilsa]

117. It really isn't good enough if there are alot of them and you are downwind. nt

[BrightKnight]

119. Ferrel hogs eat carrion that native animals need. They all die anyway.

Culling the population would actually reduce the total number of carcasses. There are 3 million invasive and destructive ferrel hogs in Texas.

[Ilsa]

130. I'm all for killing them. My inlaws have had to deal with them

tearing up their property. They would do it themselves if they could get help in removing the carcasses, which can be really huge, too big for this elderly couple and their son to manage getting rid of. There is no place to TAKE THEM for disposal. My husband's family, only a few miles away, are personally affected by this. You don't want these carcasses rotting on your ranchette.

[S_B_Jackson]

137. The usual suspects....

Bears, vultures, coyotes, foxes, crows, fire ants, rodents of all varieties, beatles, fly maggots, and since we're coming up on spring/summer the sun will dehydrate the carcasses faster than all get-out.

[flvegan]

118. Odd redefinition of "hunter" there.

Were I one of the folks that fancies him/herself a hunter, I'd be pretty offended.

[Chan790]

158. Well, you know...

do it from the bed of a moving truck and it's a crime...do it from a helicopter and it's just good clean fun. :eyes:

[carlyhippy]

121. from a helicopter would probably be the safest for the hunter

have you ever been chased by a p*ssed off Javelina? They need to relocate those buggers, they are the meanest critters in Texas.

[Threedifferentones]

136. If only pigs could read, they would have learned from the T-shirts

You don't mess with Texas.

[nolabels]

139. This could be a real over the head hazard for people like Karl Rove

:yoiks:

[The Second Stone]

160. Cool. So when Limbaugh is in Texas next

the stars will be aligned and I can get a hunting and a heli license.

[Javaman]

161. is this why rove wears a bullet proof jacket? LOL nt