US senator hosts anti-Islamic Dutch lawmaker

[Scurrilous]

Source: Associated Press

Republican Jon Kyl sponsoring screening of Geert Wilders' film, says 'all too often, people who have the courage to point out the dangers of militant Islamists find themselves vilified and endangered'

<snip>

"Republican Sen. Jon Kyl is hosting a film screening at the Capitol building for a far-right Dutch lawmaker who claims that Islam inspires terrorism.

Kyl is sponsoring the Thursday event for Geert Wilders, who was denied entry to London earlier this month because British officials said he posed a threat to public order.

Wilders' 15-minute film juxtaposes verses from the Quran with images of violence by Muslims. Wilders has called the Quran a "fascist book" and said it should be banned.

Kyl agreed to facilitate the event because "all too often, people who have the courage to point out the dangers of militant Islamists find themselves vilified and endangered," said spokesman Ryan Patmintra."



Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3676607,00.html

---

Dutch anti-Islam MP barred from UK

<snip>

"A Dutch politician facing trial for his anti-Islamic comments has been refused entry into Britain, where he was planning to show a controversial film.

Geert Wilders said he was planning to show his 15-minute movie Fitna, which juxtaposes shots of the 9/11 attacks on the US with quotations from the Quran, at the House of Lords after he was invited by a member.

But the British embassy wrote to Wilders on Tuesday to say he would not be allowed into the country, saying he posed a "genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to one of the fundamental interests of society".

"Your statements about Muslims and their beliefs, as expressed in your film Fitna and elsewhere, would threaten community harmony and therefore public security," the letter said."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2009/02/200921115468964397.html


Dutch MP to be prosecuted over anti-Islam comments

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3699610

[Sultana]

1. Hmmmm, do people get prosecuted for anti-Christian comments?

[geek tragedy]

3. Europe has a much bigger problem with mutual tolerance than we do.

You have white European parties that call for Islam to be banned and Muslims deported, and you also have Muslims there that go around murdering anyone who commits heresy against the Koran.

In some places the experiment in multiculturalism is working albeit imperfectly. In the Netherlands, it's a damn trainwreck.

[Lost in CT]

4. No I remember a comedy festival in Scotland (The Fringe I think) had an anything goes

session on religion.

They kept braying how daring they were. They staged vicious and often quite funny attacks on Christianity and Jews.

Not one dared to make fun of The Muslims.

It turned out that the one comedian who had Muslim based humor (and was Muslim herself) was banned due to "cultural sensitivity"

[The Stranger]

38. No, not at all. Just ask Galileo. Wait, those were scientific comments.

Ask anyone tortured during the Spanish Inquisition.

[Psephos]

39. How many centuries ago was that? n/t

[Sultana]

43. In present time not the past.

[The Stranger]

44. You want to forget millenia of history?

That's okay. You can play this game by yourself.

[LeftishBrit]

51. Only if they are seen as inciting violence

This politician isn't in trouble because he 'blasphemed' Islam (or any other religion); he is in trouble over trying to spread hate against Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands. I don't know if he should be prosecuted, but he certainly shouldn't be given encouragement.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Wonder how this would have been viewed

if the Dutch fellow had taken verses from the Torah out of context with photos and said these things about the Jews.

[Lost in CT]

7. He wouldn't have any trouble getting into England that's for sure.

People do that all the time. It's normal.

Only America seems to frown on anti-semitic statements these days.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. I've not heard of anyone calling for the banning of the Torah or Talmud

or for immigration from Israel to be stopped. That's what he called for for the Koran, and for immigration from majority-Muslim countries.

Have you ever been to England? If so, how would you characterise the relative amount of anti-Muslim and anti-semitic statements? Or acts?

[Lost in CT]

14. Yes and it would depend on how much shit Israel had been stirring of late.

But anti-Israeli and anti semitic verbiage is quite fashionable among many in Britain.

As our boycotts of Jewish or Israeli companies and products.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. I think you're reading too many right wing sources

There's quite a lot of criticism of Israel; but anti-semitism is not 'fashionable'. Nor are boycotts of Jewish products. You may be thinking of Italy - someone suggested it there.

[LeftishBrit]

58. Not so; a noisy minority have proposed boycotts but no major group is actually involved in a boycott

Out of curiosity, have you actually been to Britain recently? I'm not saying that antisemitism doesn't exist here: it clearly does, and is a problem like everywhere; but it's not 'fashionable' to be openly antisemitic. Indeed, if expressed too vehemently and publicly it may result in arrest - as can other forms of racism.

[Jim Sagle]

34. When's the last time anyone was murdered for mouthing off about Jews?

Bueller? Anyone?

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. And your point would be?

Murder is a Bad Thing, after all.

[Jim Sagle]

37. My point would be best explained by Salman Rushdie. Check into him.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Since that involved neither anti-semitism nor Islamophobia, you point is as obscure as ever

If you're saying it's better that, these days, someone as obviously anti-Islam as Wilders hasn't been murdered, while 20 years ago some of Rushdie's associates were murdered just because of some barbed satire about the writing of the Koran, then that would be true. But hardly relevant to whether there's anti-semitism or Islamophobia in Britain.

Do you want to try to explain your purpose again?

[Jim Sagle]

45. Extremist Muslims were offended so they put out a contract on Rushdie.

Pretend ignorance is worse than the real thing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. And you still show no relevance to what I had written

The topic was anti-semitism and anti-Muslim acts. Reply #12, if you've got confused.

Are you trying to justify Islamophobia because of the Rushdie affair? I hope not. But since you keep bringing up Rushdie, that's all I can conclude.

Explain yourself.

[Jim Sagle]

47. My response pointed out that practicing antisemitism is safe,

committing anti-Muslim "acts" (e.g., writing a critical book), not so much.

Sorry, I can't provide a bouncing ball so you can follow the words.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. And yet, anti-Muslim feeling is far more common than anti-semitism

and an anti-Muslim party, the BNP, can get councillors elected, a member of the London Assembly, and may get one or more people elected to the European Parliament this summer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/22/bnp-recession-job-losses

"Practicing antisemitism", by public figures, doesn't really happen. There are arseholes who do it individually, and some offences, but those aren't 'safe'. But there is no equivalent of the BNP putting, today, on the front page of its website "Muslim drug dealers in Britain have been specifically told to target only non-Muslims".

I suspect you are working from an inaccurate picture of what Britain, and race and religious relations in it, are like. That's why your comment didn't make sense. The murders of people associated with Rushdie took place outside of the UK, of course, after incitement in Iran, though it's possible someone would have tried to kill him in the UK.

[Jim Sagle]

49. BNP is both antiMuslim and antisemitic.

That's not an uncommon phenomenon.

And thanks for the tacit acknowledgment that I was indeed addressing your point.

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. It gave up being openly antisemitic some time ago

I don't doubt that Griffin, and many of his members, are still anti-semitic, but they won't show it publicly. But they can get away with being anti-Muslim in public.

[LeftishBrit]

57. They don't have antisemitism as openly in their platform as before

and IIRC were criticized by the late John Tyndall for become too soft on Jews!. But you definitely don't have to scratch the surface terribly hard to find htheir antisemitism!

[LeftishBrit]

53. Well, I do live in England and am ethnicallyJewish

And I think there's much more Islamophobia than antisemitism, though we've got both.

But IMO the biggest bigotry in the UK, as I said elsewhere, is against immigrants. Indeed, I would say that quite a lot of British Islamophobia is really secondary to the latter: Islam is targeted *because* it's the religion of a significant number of non-white immigrants and their descendants, more than the other way round. The Daily (Hate)-Mail and similar outfits did spread antisemitism in the 30s, and even serialized the 'Protocols', because there *were* a significant number of Jewish asylum-seekers at that time for obvious reasons.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. A good point; yes, immigrants are more likely the true targets of the hate

The Mail serialised the Protocols? Wow, even for them in the 30s, that's low.

[LeftishBrit]

52. Not so; Manfred Roeder the holocaust denier was denied entry to the UK

And so have other noted antisemites and holocaust-deniers.

For that matter, Islamophobes are not always denied entry, and we have plenty of our own.

'Only America seems to frown on anti-semitic statements these days.'

???

There's antisemitism everywhere. Speaking as a British Jew with a lot of international connections, I've come across antisemitism in Americans as much as among Brits.

The biggest form of bigotry in the UK is not antisemitism or Islamophobia, though we have our share of both; but hatred of immigrants.

[Deep13]

22. That's not what the article says he is doing. *edit*

Criticizing religion (ideas) is not the same is denigrating religious people. The Abrahamic god is one of the most reprehensible deities ever imagined. Nevertheless, that does not make all or even most Muslims, Christians, Jews or Mormons evil. In your hypothetical, said Dutch fellow would have a valid case if Jews were in fact using the Torah to justify violence. The Torah has such justification in it, but few act on it. One does not need to read anything out of context to get violent instructions from the Koran or its companian book that has the sayings of Mohammed. Islam is very clear: it's goal is world domination and it expressly authorizes violence and encourages suicide killing for that end. To the extent it vaguely condenms suicide, it appears that the rank and file do not think that prohibition applies to suicide for the purpose of killing infidels.

P.S.
Just found out this guy is a Nazi. Obviously, that puts a whole new light on his claims. I have to assume he already wipes his ass with a Torah and is not interested in reasonable debate.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. Thank you for your information

and also for editing your post with the information about his political agenda.

I defend your right to your opinion about Islam, but wonder where you are getting your information. I have been a Sufi initiate for nearly 20 years now and have read an English translation of the Qur'an several times. What we initiates are taught and what the Qur'an says are very different that what you claim. Kindly cite sura and verse to back up your claims, and please tell me which translation you are using.

[Deep13]

33. "...Sufi initiate for nearly 20 years now...."

That's a pretty long initiation. Sufi isn't exactly main stream, I'm sure you know, you may not be getting the same lessons that the average Muslim gets from the local Imam.


I'm relying on Koranic analysis from authors knowledgeable on the subject. Maybe you don't think that is good enough, especially when the writers themselves obviously have no reverence for your or anyone's religion. Frankly, I was not interested in a reverent opinion. I was interested in the objective facts. I do not have the time or inclination to pour over religious texts and 1400 years of theological development. So I rely on those who are already experts and who can put passages from the Koran, the sayings of the prophet and the actual priestly teachings of the various Islamic leader within a historical context. I realize I am getting the Cliff Notes version, but I also know that Cliff Notes gives a pretty good description of the books they review. Any reading of holy books I do (which is not the whole of any theology) I do for historic context and not to become a practitioner of the religion itself.

Nevertheless, I will see if I can find some examples in the next few days. Remind me if I forget, which I am prone to do. Frankly, I am not going to indulge in a pissing contest among translations. Whoever translates the commercial, English versions knows a lot more about 7th century Arabic than I do.

[TheMightyFavog]

5. Isn't Wilder's party affiliated with Skinheads and other associated neo-Nazis?

Could someone more knowledgable with Dutch politics confirm this for me?

[Scurrilous]

8. You might be thinking about Vlaams Belang from Belgium. n/t

[TheMightyFavog]

10. I know the NDP in Germany has Skinhead connections.

Hell, the German Government has tried to ban the NDP on a number of occasions.

[amb123]

6. Goddamn Kyl!

Why don't you have a screening of D. W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation" and Joseph Goebbel's "The Eternal Jew" while you're at it!

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[harun]

9. I hope they have fun at their Fascism party. Assholes.

[pampango]

11. Why is it that in Europe to dwell on negative aspects of Islam is "far-right", but

a similar film in the US that dwells on the negative aspects of Christianity would be "far-left"?

They would both deal with the excesses of religion and how secular society should deal with them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. It's far right, because Muslims are a minority, largely from families that immigrated recently

and it's basically a copy of the racist feelings we've seen earlier, but with a religion used to identify the 'Them' that they want people to be afraid of.

Some might say that an attack on the majority religion in the USA would be 'far left' - if they themselves came from the right.

[pampango]

17. I wondered if it was a question of which was a dominant religion and

which a minority. Then the same movie negatively depicting Islam would be considered "far-left" if shown in, say, Iraq, since Islam is the dominant religion and Christians are a small minority. It is interesting that context is everything in this type of issue, while a movie that dealt with other themes, such as war, oppression, or racism might easily portrayed as left/progressive or right/conservative regardless of where the movie was shown.

Oh, I think most Americans would not perceive an attack on the majority religion in the US as coming from the far-right which most see as in bed with Christian fundamentalism.

[CJCRANE]

54. Attacks on Christianity in the US tend to come

from secularists who dislike all religion. Secularism and egalitarianism are usually associated with the left.

Attacks on Islam in Europe tend to come either from fundamentalist Christians or racists who attack only Islam and not other religions. Prejudice against a minority is usually associted with the far-right.

On edit: so as per your post #17, it is about context.

[Lost in CT]

55. Attacks on Islam in Europe also come from the secularists, feminists and and

the moderates who are afraid of an imposition of freedoms

[atreides1]

15. Well

They don't call him "Vile Kyl" without reason!!

[Deep13]

18. I guess censorship is alive and well.

I don't know anything about this guy. Having said that, secular Europe's empty-headed multiculturalism represents a kind of suicide in the face of the concerted effort by Mulsim activists to make the generally free expression in Europe conform to Muslim standards. Frankly, I think the statements in your OP by themselves are true, though I would not support banning any book or film anywhere.

[comtec]

20. a short history on wilders

frm what i know and have seen.
Dude's a Nazi.
he'd make himler proud, he even looks the part.
and when I say Nazi, I literally mean just that!

Most people think the Nazius were athiests, that is quite wrong.
the Nazis were "good white christians" who were blessed by the vatican and the sitting pope.
they had GOD MIT ONZ on the back of their belt buckles... god (is) with us.

I mean that he is literally a Nazi in all the does, says, and acts, goose stepping and 'saluting' aside.

This man is scum, and a disgrace to the former good name the netherlands used to have as being a humane, socially liberal and advanced land.

If you are an immigrant you are not welcome, if you are a black, you are 10x not welcome. if you are muslum, you should be banned from even entering, THAT is what he and his party stand for.

wilders and the PVV are scum, and have long since worn out their "right' to "free speech"!
punt, out!

[Deep13]

25. Okay, Nazis suck.

Everything about them sucks. Nazis take all that is good and decent in the world and pervert it into horrific evil. No argument there or about the dogmatic basis for their point of view. And yeah, anyone who embraces them while knowing what the Nazis are has earned his vilification.

Still, I think free speech is an inherent human right that one cannot wear out. I mean, that was essentially Bush's argument for denying habeus corpus to prisoners. They are so bad that they don't deserve normal rights. Still, I respect your opinion on this because the Nazi are so fucking evil.

[atreides1]

27. Yes Nazis suck, but free speech is not an inherent human right

If human history is any example free speech is anything but an inherent human right, if it were then all nations would have it. The last time I looked free speech wasn't high on the list of several countries ruled by dictators, some who are either US allies or business partners.

It is only a right because people were willing to fight and die for it! And the only way to keep it is to constanly fight for the right, because if we won't fight for it, then we'll lose it.

[Deep13]

29. yup nt

[comtec]

19. You can keep that fuck head wilders

him and rita verdonk have made MY life hell as far as trying to make a life for myself here and im a white american!
They make it even worse for the Surinam and Moroccan people who have been here all their lives!
I proudly call myself allochtoon! which is a slur against foreigners, but particularly dark skinned ones.
I'll take my lumps because i am an immigrant, im the lowest of low, next to criminals, i accept that. But to make life hard on people who \are dutch, at least by american yo've been here all your life, standards, is just ... cruel.

Erasmus would not recognize his home land now... at least i hope not.

wilders and his ilk really took off in power after that asshole pim fortune got his brains sprayed across the street by some whack job animal rights nut - and i mean whack job, not because he was a grass munching animals first kinda guy.
sorry, i'm very affected by this asshole.
the pvv (just this side of nazis) is not a major party, only 5-10?% in parliament. but he's closely aligned with the party in power, teh CDA (christian democratic party) who are 35% and falling.

these are not nice people, who abuse the right to say what you want w/o persecution to the illogical limit. they say FIRE in a theatre and think they should not be punished.

fitna is utter bullshit, and it HAS endangered people's lives abroad because of it's racist, hateful bullshit.

The middle east thing has only given eh hate mongers to use the word negger again w/o being punished.
a nazi is a nazi is a nazi is a nazi!
Any photo of this asshole and you'll see what I mean.

*spits on the ground*

may karma hit this asshole and his followers soon!

[azurnoir]

21. Could this be a trend?

I suspect we will be seeing more of this kind of stuff from the GOP as President Obama tries to forge a new relationship with Muslim countries nothing like whipping up a little bigotry and paranoia to help the GOP cause

[Deep13]

24. How is this bigotry? *edit*

Maybe the guy is wrong, but I see him criticizing the ideas of a religion and not the people themselves. How is that bigotted. As a non-Muslim, he is not required to conform to Muslim social norms, including the one that demands respect for Islam itself. I find it far more bigotted to judge others by ones on religious standards.


P.S. Nevermind, he's a Nazi, just found out. Nazis are bigots by definition.

[azurnoir]

28. Have you ever seen Fitna?

or are you supporting the actions of a Republican senator who IMO is trying to undercut Obama's foreign policy

[Deep13]

30. It's an orange soda, isn't it?

No, I was basing my response only on what was in the article.

[Deep13]

23. 'Blasphemy laws make no sense' *edit*

Right. Apart from being a victimless crime, it operates as a perpetual bar to even question the validity of a certain catagory of belief. Religion cannot justify the deference it demands from nonbelievers or members of other religions, so it hides from criticism under the cone of silence social convention here and actual law in Europe. The beliefs themselves are indefensible and have negative consequences when people act on assumed, but false, perceptions.

P.S. Okay, I just found out this Dutch guy is a Nazi. so I have to assume he means blasphemy laws against other people's religions. That puts the argument in a whole new light. I fucking hate Nazis.

[karynnj]

26. Ironically, on the same day the SFRC has a rountable on how to reach out to the Muslim world

It is disgusting that Kyl would host such an event. Given Kerry's speeches on interfaith relations http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2008/07/kerry_to_addres.html and video - http://www.yale.edu/divinity/video/commonword/video.shtml and their impact on foreign policy ( http://www.americanprogressaction.org/events/2008/07/senkerry.html ), this hearing should be very interesting - unlike the nasty Kyl event.

Link to Thursday's hearing
http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2009/hrg090226p.html
Herring: Engaging with Muslim Communities around the world

HEARING
before the

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
Thursday, February 26, 2009
Time: 2:30 P.M.
Place: 419 Dirksen Senate Building
Presiding: Senator Kerry


Witnesses:

Panel 1:
+The Honorable Madeleine K. Albright
Former Secretary of State
Washington, DC
+Admiral William J. Fallon, USN (ret.)
Former Commander of U.S. Central Command
Cambridge, MA

Panel 2:
+Dalia Mogahed
Executive Director
Gallup Center for Muslim Studies
Washington, DC
+Eboo Patel
Executive Director
Interfaith Youth Core
Chicago, IL
+Jim Sciutto
Senior Foreign Correspondent
ABC News
London, UK

[tanngrisnir3]

32. Free speech for all, or free speech for none.

Beyotches.

[comtec]

41. I think you're confusing free speech, with the right to be heard

that is you can say what you want but no one is under obligation to listen to pay attention.

Winders is always given tv time that could be put to better use like... football (soccer) scores, or pictures of beautiful, naked people.

He has NOT RIGHT to that tv time, but he makes news, and that's all the media cares about.

you have the freedom to be ignored too you know.

All I'm saying is this asshole deserves not to be covered as some kind of lion of free speech, but as the bigoted asshole he is.

Freedom of speech only means the government can't put you in jail... it says nothing about the mob ripping you to shreds.
not that I condone that. But this *thing* brings out the worst in me, I do apologize for that.

[BreweryYardRat]

35. Being against MILITANT "Islam" is fine, same as being against MILITANT "Christianity" is fine.

I have no sympathy for people who commit assault, bombings, or murder in the name of religion.

But Wilders and Kyl are apparently against ALL Muslims, the vast majority of whom just want to live their lives in peace like everyone else. That makes W&K bigoted fuckheads.

[MisterP]

40. Geert makes up his mind: