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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 12:37 PM
Original message
Court: Religious Group Does Not Have Right to Erect Monument in Utah Park
Source: Washington Post

The Supreme Court today unanimously agreed that a little-known religious group does not have the right to erect the "Seven Aphorisms" of its beliefs in a Utah city park just because the Ten Commandments are displayed there.

In their decision, the justices said the Ten Commandments monument in a Pleasant Grove City, Utah, park is a form of government speech, and the city's decision to turn down a request from the religious group Summum is not a violation of the group's First Amendment rights.

Unlike previous court decisions about the display of the Ten Commandments, this case concerned the Free Speech Clause, and not the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits government from favoring one religion over another.

Permanent monuments in city parks, Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. wrote for the court, are erected "for the purpose of presenting the image of the city that it wishes to project to all who frequent the park."


Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/25/AR2009022501244.html



I think the title is misleading. There is a Ten Commandments monument there BECAUSE a religious group had it erected, and this decision says that's okay. It's just okay for the city to refuse ANOTHER religious group to erect a monument.

Huh?

And this was a unanimous decision. :(

Any legal eagles want to explain why even the liberal justices supported this decision?

(personally I think the Ten Commandments monument needs to come down, not the other one being put up. Was that not an option for the court?)
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. my knee jerk reaction is
that this sets a terrible precedent.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Ten Commandmenst monument was put there as a movie promotion!
Edited on Wed Feb-25-09 12:55 PM by Lars39
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:MQbGFz1adikJ:www.slate.com/id/2204465/pagenum/all/+Pleasant+Grove+City,+Utah+Heston&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

<snip>
... which sit alongside a massive permanent monument to the Ten Commandments—one of many such monuments donated by the Fraternal Order of Eagles (working to reduce juvenile delinquency) and Cecil B. DeMille (working to promote his Charlton Heston movie The Ten Commandments).
<snip>


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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The story said the SCOTUS said the 10 Commandments was govt speech, though.
That is a very old movie and Cecil B. DeMille is long dead. At some point, it is the city keeping it there and maintaining it.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. True, but the origins of this and other monuments are being forgotten.
DeMille did this in many places, and it would be quite a stretch to say he was a religious group.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. Yes, but if local government has kept it and maintained it all this time, how relevant is the
origin at this point? And by that, I mean legally relevant. It's interesting as a bit of movie or local history, but not legally significant.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not every tiny, fringe religious group should get to put some monument wherever they like
I'm not crazy about the 10 commandments being there either, but just because it is doesn't mean every butter under the sun gets to have one too.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. If any religious monuments are allowed on public land then all must be allowed
the government cannot, is forbidden to, pick and choose between religions.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes, they can
Stop being ridiculous.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Well they can, but it is a clear violation of the establishment clause.
The government can also toss people into dungeons in perpetuity without bringing charges, torture people, confiscate their property and intrude into their private affairs without warrant etc., all in clear violation of the bill of rights, and yet it is clear that this behavior is forbidden by the charter under which the government obtains its legitimacy.

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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Sort of. It is kind of accepted in law that new constructions
are subject to different rules than old ones. The whole grandfather clause principle illustrates the idea fairly well. Because this monument is so old, that it was allowed can't be taken as precedent that any religion can construct a monument anywhere in any public park for any reason in any state.

THAT is what the court ruled against. They weren't ruling on whether or not the original monument would be okay under today's standards. The where ruling on whether or not any construction should be allowed anywhere on public property as long as it is religious.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. every butter under the sun gets to have one too.
Wouldn't butter melt under the sun?

Oh....you mean "nutter" (I assume since the B and the N are next to each other on the keyboard) as in some loony tune. So what makes thinking some guy who walks on water and rose from the dead is not as nutty as they come? How is what was claimed to be written by a burning bush less crazy than what these other dupes want to put up? I don't understand your point. What makes the stupid make-believe magic of Christianity any more acceptable than the stupid make-believe magic of any other religion?

And we should keep all advertising gimmicks for films up for decades because.....?

I demand that Bill Boards for "Milk" stay up permanently because the film is about something I believe in!


This is stupid and wrong. Tear down all the advertising...whether for 50 year old films or someone's supernatural fantasies.... and plant a tree or something.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. That is a great post and made me LOL - thanks! (n/t)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. If no one raised an establishment clause claim, the SCOTUS cannot reach out to
say the 10 Commandments ought not be there. The only issue presented, apparently, was a free speech issue--the right to put yup the 7 aphorisms. The SCOTUS said no. Apparently, it did not also say that the 10 Commandments should not be there, but may say that in another case, if someone raises the Establishment Clause issue.

That is my best guess, short of being able to read the entire opinion.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That's the way I read it too.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Without reading the opinion,
but being familiar with how cases are generally framed, that is how I read it too.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. All religions are created equal, it's just that some are more equal
to borrow a phrase from George Orwell. Personally, I prefer not to have our parks polluted in this manner. However, I also think that if you let one religion erect one, then you have to let to rest do it too.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Yes, the phrase "little-known religion" rings in the ears here
What is a religion, anyway? It's really nothing more than a cult that made it.

There are all sorts of icky little nuances here, such as the simpering little habit of established religions not liking competition.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Doesn't the idea that having the Ten Commandments in the park
constitutes 'government speech' violate the Establishment Clause?

Is Alito really saying that the city government can decide based on the 'image' they want to project? Presumably, a city could choose to erect just about anything under that aegis.

Good grief.


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bigworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Some guy at dailykos really explained it well
http://adam-b.dailykos.com/

Much better than I could even hope to.

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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. city government can decide based on the 'image' they want to project?
So in Nevada, the city could put up a huge penis if they wanted to show they had great strip joints and brothels! Well, Alright! Thanks Tony!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Here is the actual opinion
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scytherius Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. Just read the decision. This is what it means
Decision here:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-665.pdf


This is a case of first impression (i.e. specific issue hasn't before been decided). The real issue is a bit different than you would think. The ten commandment item in question was a gift and belongs to the State. Therefore, it is speech by the State because it is a permanent monument on public property..

1. If it is speech by the State, then the First Amendment, insofar as free speech is concerned, does not apply. It only applies to state restriction on the free speech of citizens. The analysis then proceeds to the establishment clause, i.e. is it religious speech by the State.

2. The issue isn't raised that the City should take the monument down as religious speech. The issue is whether it is the state should permit someone to place a monument owned by a private individual for the purposes of advocating an opposing view. The Court said no. The court also ruled that the City had a reasonable "test" for whether to accept gifts like this and that they were not preferring "one over another". The "monument' desired to be placed by the City wasn't being given as a gift but a demand to speak an opposing view. The Court noted that people can still stand in that park and espouse opposing views. Therefore, they ruled against the Plaintiff.


That is a very brief analysis from a quick reading. Doesn't cover it all but is fundamentally the gist. I think the decision is a good one.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. Court: establishment clause? huh?
what a clueless decision. Unanimous too.
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. What always gets me about these ten commandment monuments is they violate the second one:
"Thou shalt not worship any graven image."

More modernly and accurately translated, it means "Don't worship anything you make with your own hands."

People mess up their interpretation of that one a couple of ways. When they pulled the 10,000 pound 10 commandments rock out of that Georgia courthouse, one of the loons outside actually said, "Keep your hands off our God!" If that rock is your God, then oops, that's idolatry.

The second way is they think it means you should never make any artwork. And those zealots start destroying all statues and sometimes paintings.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks to everyone for the comments and discussion.
Sorry I wasn't able to return earlier. Several of the comments are very helpful. Thanks!

:patriot:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. The court has now violated the separation of church and state TWICE.
First by allowing the ten commandments, now this.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. The Constitution makes NO SUCH Statement as Separation of Church and State.
The term separation of Church and State is from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson, NOT a Public Statement from Jefferson on that issue (And it should be noted Jefferson was in France as the US Ambassador at the time the Constitution was written AND either was still Ambassador to France or had become Washington's Secretary of State by the time the Bill of Rights were proposed by Congress. My point is that in both cases, Jefferson had little or no input into either document, through his views were well known.

As to the First Amendment, it was carefully written to include as much free speech, free press and free Religion as possible (All three were inter-tangled at that time since most people were organized along religious lines even on non-religions matters). Furthermore to get most changes in the law to the most people the most effective way was via the Churches. Most people could NOT read or write AND lived in Rural areas where the only place available for common meetings was the local Church. Thus any new laws had to be sent to the Churches to be read for most people to learn of the changes in the law. This all changed after about 1800, first with the invention and widespread adoption of Pulp paper, which for the first time permitted what we would call Newspapers today (Newspapers had existed in the 1700s but using much more expensive linen paper and tended to be advertisement papers meant to be kept for months after printing NOT read once and thrown away, most papers only lasted 20 or fewer years, the Times of London being the biggest exception to the 20 year "rule", most modern Newspapers date from the mid 1800s NOT earlier and the introduction of pulp paper).

With the introduction of Pulp Paper came Public education, Tax payer supported education. This starts in the 1830s, you had schools before that date, but either tuition paid or Church related. The train is the third factor for it permitted the movement of papers to area beyond what a horse could carry. While horses stayed part of the delivery system till the Truck replaced them after 1900, they only had to move the papers from the railhead to the news stand instead of from the Newspaper print shop to the newsstand. This permitted more papers to be sold over a wider area, thus permitting the use of even bigger and faster presses. I bring this up for until these changes occurred (And note ALL after about 1830) the best way to get news to people was via the local pulpit and for that reason many states were reluctant to disestablished churches (In fact the South Disestablished them first, more to get rid of the cost of taking care of Widow and Orphans then anything else, in Colonial times, while the State paid for the cost of what we call "Welfare" today, it was run through the Churches. When the South "Freed" their churches in the 1790s it then told such widows and orphans to go west and take land from the Indians instead of getting support from the State such Widows and orphans were living in (yes, they is a direct connection between our stealing land from the Indians and the Freedom of Religion, the ability to steal the land of the Native Americans permitted the states to support widows and orphans independent of state churches).

I go into the above basically to explain WHY the first amendment is worded the way it is, it was to prevent the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from adopting nay religious test OR discrimination against any religious/political minority. At the same time Congress wanted the ability to use the pre-existing state system to distribute legal notices. Most States used their State Churches OR had adopted a way to use all of the Churches in their state for the same purpose (For Example Pennsylvania adopted religious toleration but also sent messages through the churches to be read to the Citizens of Pennsylvania, remember most people lived in rural area and did not read and write in Colonial America). Thus the wording of the First:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Until just before the time of the Civil War, complete separation of Church and State was simply not possible. With the above three changes in society, Newspapers became the way for the State to publish new laws and to get messages to its citizens, slowly replacing churches throughout the 1800s. Thus no one thought in terms of Separation of Church and State (Except on the theoretically level, as Voltaire and Jefferson did) do to the issue of how would the state get its messages as to changes in the Law to the people? Prior to Pulp paper, Steam Railroads and universal education the job of distributing news and new laws was solely in the hands of the Church (Whatever was the Church in that area). The Church also had the hierarchy to distribute such messages (And this was by the simple means of getting churchmen together once every while to discuss not only theologian points but how to distribute news AND by sending letters from the Government to the head of the Church, who had them copied and sent to his local ministers who read them to his congregation). This was the cheapest and most effective way to distribute such news till the above three inventions made newspapers the preferred way to distribute news.

Thus when Congress wrote the first, it had enough sense to understand that complete separation of Church and State was NOT possible, so it punted the issue back to the states. Only at the time of the Civil War did anyone questioned this policy and you see the states making the final cut off of using Churches for the purposes of distribution of News (And also welfare). In the mid 1800s it finally became possible to separate the State from the Church, but by making the the growing power of Corporate America (as seen in the form of Corporate Newspapers) the replacement of the Church is distribution of news. As a whole this was an improvement, but the First Amendment still reflects the facts that existed in 1792 when it was adopted NOT today.

Side-note: The First Amendment by its wording restricts only Congress, the Courts have long ruled that the First applies ot the States via the 14th amendment and that amendments adoption that all states MUST give Due Process to all Citizens. A State establishing A church would interfere with other citizens right to due process and thus unconstitutional, a State forbidding a religion would also be unconstitutional as denying such a person his or her fundamental rights as defined in the First Amendment. Thus the above is a comment of the time period more then what the courts have ruled on since the 1860s and the adopting of the post- Civil War Amendments which made fundamental changes in the State-Federal relationship. It is do to the post Civil War Amendments that the concept of Separation of Church and State became the view adopted by the Courts. It is still the preferred viewed but the Courts accept it is based on a very weak foundation (From a legal point of view, it is a popular view with the public, but Constitutionally not on very strong grounds). The Same Court that said the First Amendment applied to the States under the Concept of Substantial Due Process also ruled that the same concept also forbade the State and the Federal Government to set minimum wages and Maximum hours do the grounds it was a violation of the concept of Substantial Due Process. Those rulings as to labor were struck down in the 1930s but if it is NO longer a violation of Substantial Due Process for the Government to restrict one's right to contract (i.e. agree to work for less then minimum wage and more then maximum hours) is it still a violation of Substantial Due Process for a state NOT to have a State Church? Remember the First applies to the states via the Due Process Clause of the 15th NOT by its own wording. Most people support the concept so the issue only comes up at the margins, and at the margins the courts have a problem applying the concept of Due Process to the states. How is it a denial of Due Process for a local Government to deny a religious group the right to set up a monument in a locally owned park? Note I did NOT say separation of Church and State but how is is a denial of Due Process? Remember it is a denial of Due Process that permits the Courts to impose the first on the States, if a state would ban posting such a monument anywhere, then due process issues kick in (i.e. the state must have a system for such a ban to be challenged), but how is it a denial of due process if the restriction is only on government owned property? It is only with the denial of Substantial Due Process that permits the Courts to impose the First onto the States, thus we get to the issue of where is the violation of Substantial Due Process?

Now I know the above is mostly academic, most people support the concepts behind the First and want it applied to the States in addition to the Federal Government, but the issue is almost never over supporting or suppressing one religion or another but at the margins of where Freedom to exercise religion cab be restricted by the State. Thus the Courts problem with the First, how is a local government's decision to permit the continue standing of a Ten Commandment monument be a denial of Due Process? How can the refusal of a local Government to a religious group be a denial of Due Process? Due Process is your right to a trial and proper procedure during that trial, it does NOT apply to things outside the court. The Courts expanded the Due Process clause in the late 1800s early 1900s to include what the Court called "Substantial Due Process" so that it could strike down laws the regulated business (and wages). The Court then expanded this concepts to the issue of Free Speech and Religion. The whole concept is Questionable. In the late 1930s the Court actually gave up on economic issue when it came to "Substantial Due Process" but kept the First Amendment issues, even through both were based on the same rational. That rational being it was a violation of Due Process for the State to pass a law that restricted what a person could do. It is from this concept that the Court embraced Jefferson's comment about separation of Church and State. The concept of Separation of Church and State has wide support in the US at the present time, but as I tried to point out above weak constitutional groundings.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. There's one sure way of getting rid of Ten Commandments monuments everywhere
Just send in a picture of Fred Phelps' antigay monument and tell them that if the Ten Commandments monument stays, Fred's monument is coming.

It's worked everywhere Fred has tried it so far.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. in other words: Christians Only!
This is exactly why we had a Separation between Church and State!
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
30. what about the right to a flaccid statue in Utah Park
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