Anger grows in India over US visa rules

[OhioChick]

Source: Business Week

25 Feb 2009, 1650 hrs IST, BusinessWeek

With the economies in the U.S. and India both struggling and with unemployment rising, the outsourcing of American jobs to Indian workers has become an even more explosive issue. That's leading business leaders, politicians, and ordinary citizens in both countries to focus on a controversial visa program, the H-1B, that allows a limited number of foreigners to work at U.S. companies for up to six years. Critics have long claimed the program allows high-paying software-writing and engineering jobs at companies and state governments to go to foreigners.

On Feb. 23, the H-1B critics got a new round of ammunition. Data released by the U.S. Citizen & Immigration Services showed that in 2008, for the second year running, many of these visas went to Indian IT services companies that were sending engineers to the U.S. temporarily to work. In effect, a visa that had been designed for U.S. corporations to remain competitive at a time of talent shortage had become a blessing for the U.S. operations of global Indian companies, allowing them to send engineers from India, rather than hiring locally.

The news comes at a time when many Indians already suspect the U.S. is trying to put a squeeze on the country's successful outsourcing industry. Each year, the American government hands out 65,000 H-1B visas, and Indian engineers receive many of them. However, as part of President Obama's economic stimulus package, Congress passed provisions to bar any U.S. company that receives bailout dollars from directly hiring workers on these H-1B visas.

Fueling India's Diaspora
In India, there has been a swift outcry. "This is just irrational protectionism," says Montek Singh Ahluwalia, deputy chairman of India's Planning Commission. "It makes no economic sense at all."


Read more: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Anger-grows-in-India-over-US-visa-rules/articleshow/4189959.cms

---

Tough shit. As for "irrational protectionism"......

India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms

I believe this is a time when every country's citizens "should" come first.

[LakeSamish706]

1. I think they should scrap the H-1B Visa program until the US economy turns...

around, period... I would even go as far as saying that those who are currently here and working under that visa should be sent home now. We have tens of thousands of unemployed US workers in this country already.

[BobRossi]

31. AMEN!

I'm sick of Americans sucking hind tit.

[LiberalEsto]

2. Talk about utter hypocrisy

Those two articles you posted say it all. It makes me furious.

They demand that we lay off Americans in order to give them jobs, but in their own country, they are firing foreigners in order to hire Indians.

When will they realize that America does not owe them jobs or visas?

How would they feel if Americans were flooding their job markets and putting hundreds of thousands of them out of work?

With so many American citizens out of work, we need to end H-1B visas and other visa programs that bring in cheap foreign labor and displace American workers.

[superconnected]

51. Exactly!

[Sultana]

3. Fuck them

[barb162]

17. Couldn't have said it better!

[FreeStateDemocrat]

39. If the shoe was on the other foot that's what they would tell US, fuck'em.

Nothing personal, but job opportunities belong first to unemployed Americans.

[daggahead]

4. I have no sympathy ...

:nopity:
:nopity:
:nopity:

[Larkspur]

8. Me neither

My duties were taken over by an H1-B visa holder from India. I like the kid and he didn't want me to go. He also knows that he is getting shit dumped on him in the wake of the layoffs because he is "cheaper" to keep than American workers.

I really oppose the corporate policy and don't blame the individual H1-B visa holders. It's corporate greed that is really served by H1-B visa holders, not the individuals.

Hospitals in California are also using H1-B visas to bring in nurses from foreign countries, mainly from East Asia and the Pacific Rim islands, to replace American nurses. It's not as large as the IT worker program is but as long as hospitals are a for-profit business and insurance companies do everything they can to not pay bills, the nursing program will be the next victim of H1-B visas unless we put a stop to it.

[daggahead]

24. I work with many H1-B workers ...

They are nice people and I've befriended some of the one I work closely with.

That said, why can't people born here in the States do this, instead of the imported workers?

It has been said before - cheap labor. Furthermore, if any of these imported workers complain about working very long hours, they are threatened (right or wrong) with their H1-B visa being revoked.

[Seedersandleechers]

25. Please let me correct you

foreign nurses are not brought in to replace American nurses - they are brought in because there are not enough American nurses. I don't know of any American nurses denied work in favor of foreign nurses.

[AnneD]

32. BULL.....

1) Companies run ads with great salaries, etc. You come in and aren't a carbon copy match for their requirements. Oh well-they tried-so know they are freed up to get a HB1 Nurse or Doc that is cheaper. I have had this happen when a Nurse supervisor friend had me apply for a position on her floor and I didn't even make it out of HR, even though I had the skill set she was looking for. So I know first hand this crap goes on.

2) GAO recently estimated that numerically we do have enough Nurses to match openings but will gradual see a decrease with the peak being (I think)2025 as boomer nurses retire. Surveys indicate that Nurses leave because of poor/unsafe nurse to patient ratios (ie like 1 Nurse to 8-11 fresh post op patients instead of the recommended 1 to 4), mandatory overtime, etc. When you are an HB1 visa Nurse, they own your visa-no job no visa. It is hard to file complaints in all but the worst because the Nurses are afraid.

3) Why are they closing Nursing schools in the middle of an ongoing shortage-with long waiting lists for those wanting to get into schools.

There isn't a Nursing Shortage, just a shortage of Nurses willing to work in some of these conditions.

[Seedersandleechers]

36. The hospital I work for as a nurse

pays all nurses the same depending on years of experience. The local nursing school just doubled enrollment. Nurse/patient ratio is 4 to 5. Please provide link stating there are enough nurses to cover demand.

[AnneD]

41. I will have to see if the link is still available....

This was from a GAO report that was done for Congress at 4 years when they were discussing the relationship between med errors and high pt ratios. I worked in the hinterlands (rural area) and yes I witness these shenanigans going on. Just because it is not happening in your hospital doesn't mean it isn't.

[Divernan]

50. In Penn., nurses have been forced into working double shifts w/ high patient loads

I don't have any links to provide, but not too many years back, I attended hearings by the state legislature's professional licensing committee and heard many nurses testify about being overworked in many ways, such that a number of them quit the profession. It was common for them to be ordered to work back-to-back (16 hour) shifts, and/or have dangerously large patient loads. My experience in accompanying family members and friends to hospitals, is that direct patient care is relegated to nurse's aids and that there would be a single RN for a whole unit. He or she was doing more administrative than direct patient care work. Pressing the buzzer to get assistance got no response. As a visitor, I would have to walk down to the nurses' station and say, "Mrs. Blank in Room xxx is in pain and needs some (whatever).

My family and friends operate on the principle that when one of us is in the hospital, there should be a friend or family member there as much as possible to guarantee safer care. It's not unlike some third world country where the family members sleep on the floor.

Which reminds me of the time my elderly mom with the beginnings of senile dementia was in an accident and I accompanied her to an emergency room. They took x-rays and kept her "under observation in an ER cubicle from 8 p.m. until releasing her at 4 a.m. They allowed me to stay with her (she was in and out of sleep and panicked each time she woke up) and I ended up laying down on a body board on the floor next to her bed.

[AnneD]

60. I gotta link for ya-right here Seedersand....

I'm going to stop doing research for people that can't challange or back up their statement with facts....
All you needed to do is google gao nursing shortage. You get this site

www.gao.gov/new.items/d01944.pdf

Now I won't spoon feed you anymore.

We are now 8 years from that indepth study. When that study came out 8 years ago they were already hiring HB1 visa Nurses at a good clip-when we had enough Nurses. That further depressed wages and discourage permanent solutions-better wages, safer working conditions, safer ratios.

I remember this study because I was shocked that we currently had numerically enough nurses. Next year will mark the decade so the shortage will begin to show up-although a bad economy will bring nurses out and slow the signs and symptoms of a shortage.

Happy data mining.

[Doremus]

46. Sounds like the supply of nurses is being manipulated like the oil industry.

Dirty, filthy healthcare megaconglomerates don't have enough bonuses. They need to import a ready pool of workers to exploit so they can pocket part of their meager wages.

I swear, if there's any justice EVER meted out, please let it be to all the crooked corpofascists who get off on ramming it to the little guy. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[christx30]

47. There would be more

nurses if they would just start paying these people what they are worth, and giving them safer working conditions. Let's have some friggin' higher standards for the people that are working 12 hour days to take care of our sick and injured.
My Gods... when my wife was in the hospital to give birth to our daughter, the ladies that took care of her completely overwhelmed me with the amount of work they were not only expected to do, but willing to do with a smile. The level of competence and joy that they brought into the first 3 days of my daughters life was amazing. My wife and I brought 3 cheesecakes to the nurses' station the day we left to thank them for the hard work.

[Miss Chybil]

56. Maybe now that there is such a slow down on new grad hires

this will change? We shall see...

[superconnected]

52. I've had it happen at 3 jobs. It's normal in the IT industry now.

[Mari333]

5. awww tough shit. nt

[musette_sf]

6. too bad so sad (not)

:nopity:

[mitchum]

7. Suck on it...Bobby

[Justyce]

9. Having my last job outsourced to India, I'm

a little short on sympathy in that area.

[pscot]

10. I love the smell

of Backlash in the morning. Key the Valkyrie.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cascadiance]

12. Don't let them divide us like they've done with Latino immigrants. The problem is systemic...

Just like the Republicans are appealing to the racist feelings to direct people's anger towards Latino immigrants, instead of looking more broadly at the causes of why they are coming here, we have to be careful not to demonize people from India here too. They are people too, and I have many good Indian friends who I work with on a daily basis.

However, that doesn't stop me from saying that this system is brain damaged, and needs to be fixed. It is not sustainable if we want to have a return of a strong middle class here. Now that might mean some of those that might immigrate here not get the nice jobs they get here, but the solution is to work globally BOTH for us to protect our jobs here, AND to help them with their situations in their own countries so that their own middle class can be built up too, and they aren't in desperate survival situations over there, that brings many of them over here.

That's not to say we don't welcome REAL immigrants who want to buy into our system AND become citizens here. I welcome those folks with open arms. By becoming citizens, they stay here and build our investment of work experience that stays HERE and doesn't go back over there and fuels experience in other nations besides ours at our own expense. By staying here, they can get the right to vote, be full members of unions and other parts of our society, and have all people fully represented in guiding our government to do the right things for everyone too.

The system is fixed now to reward those who profit from them coming over here for temporary jobs at lower salaries as contractors (where they don't have long term concerns for things like social security, pensions, and other benefits too normally according domestic citizen workers). They've been profiting from this for too long, and its time that the wealth they've been stealing from us and pocketing for themselves gets put back in the hands of domestic workers to even out the wealth gap and restore our economy.

As I said before, the work doesn't stop there. If we really want to correct the masses of people waiting at our gates to get in for a job, we need to treat workers' rights and organization as a GLOBAL problem to solve, and not allow any more "races to the bottom". This also applies to things like environment protection and other protections of the commons in other countries too that are are currently prey to multi-nationals as part of this race to the bottom.

By organizing globally, we can really force companies to deal with the problems of paying people fairly, and not abusing the environment, if they don't have havens where they can go to do this sort of abuse, whether it is trying to subvert our own work force or "outsource" to those havens in the name of the term "globalization"...

And if we ultimately really do get a decent global playing field for fair treatment of working classes in other countries like India, similar costs of living, etc. then it really shouldn't matter at that point if they want to come to work here. There won't be any inherent financial advantage to them or financial disadvantage to them to work here, and they would come here more for just the valuable experience of working in the American economy, which would be more desirable than people just coming here to try and raid our coffers when theirs is empty. That dream may be many years off, and probably not within my lifetime, but I think that is the goal we should ultimately have.

[Chovexani]

57. Co-signed

But, you know, it's just easier to hate on brown people than to actually come together and organize and try to find solutions for this complex issue.

Yours is probably the best, most reasonable post on this topic I've ever read on DU. It really should be its own OP.

[shireen]

13. protectionism is not evil

Newsflash: there is no such thing as free trade. It's a republican myth. Like the tooth fairy, except they probably outsourced her work to elves.

[barb162]

19. That's right. Fair trade is better than free trade.

[DainBramaged]

14. I can't go work there why should I feel sorry for them?

[harun]

16. Exactly, nearly all of these outsourcing countries will laugh at you if you try to get

permission to go work there.

[DainBramaged]

18. I asked the guy who runs the gas station down the street if Americans can go

to India or Pakistan and run gas stations there. he said we are not allowed in those country to work, just as tourists.


There ya go.

[harun]

29. It is the same in the IT industry. I know some people who got outsourced,

they were young and single and looking for an adventure so they offered to go live in India and work from there for less money. They were not allowed by India to do that.

[Seedersandleechers]

26. Well

Wasn't IBM trying to send their workers there? All in all H1B visa's should be outlawed.

[phantom power]

15. I feel for them, but maybe they've noticed we've got our own problems?

[barb162]

20. They don't care about our problems is all I can figure.

We're supposed to roll over and play dead/ just give them all of our jobs.

[LeftHandPath]

21. The H1B program is licensed slavery...

The whole concept is to bring in foreigners who can be manipulated to work 16hr x 7 day work weeks.

I say scrap the entire program unless unemployment is below 4%.

[acmavm]

22. Tough shit was my first thought too.

This is just so fucked. The Swiss won't tell us who our biggest tax evaders are and the Indians are pissed because Americans think they should be able to have jobs in their own country.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Why the heck are we obligated to fix the Indian financial problems?

You know, all you ever hear from Indians is how resentful they are of the British invasion in their country. Yet, that invasion seems to have only helped their marketability for these times. Imagine how much worse they would be off if they had to start from scratch, bridging that cultural gap. As bad as the assimilation process was for them, they have got to recognize that they have benefitted from the cultural exchange. Now, what I don't get is, why we are obligated to fix their problems. It's not like we invaded their country like we did to Japan. I mean, why are they so angry that we want to close up the H-1B?

[Cha]

27. Our country and its citizens have to come first..

Sorry, outsourcerers..no tax breaks for you.

[henry chinaski]

59. I agree...It's not some jingoistic sentiment, either

As our economy goes, so goes the world's economies. It serves no good purpose for us to provide foreigners jobs and have our citizens sitting there without work. Another overlooked issue with this is the money being sent OUTSIDE America! I think with Mexico alone it's been almost $1 trillion annually (last year it went down for the first time). When you multiply that by all the other countries, you see the staggering loss of circulating dollars.

[dipsydoodle]

28. Numerous LTTE's to the India Times might get the message over.

Just needs to say DEAL WITH IT.

I'm sure we have similar dodgy issues in the UK and in the words of the prophet "fuck 'em".

[BobRossi]

30. Good!

Jobs for Americans first.

[MoonlitwingsX]

33. I too was replaced by H-1B holders, and I feel little sympathy,

Echoing what I've heard said here before, people have little sympathy over Americans who lost their jobs until it begins to affect their own jobs. The IT industry is one of the industries suffering through this the most, and I blame most of all, corporate greed. I know many intelligent people, dedicated to their jobs who were replaced simply because they were deemed too expensive.. Because they have things like a low credit rating, or debt to pay back. And what about the parents who busted their humps, saved every penny to send their kid(s) off to school to pursue the American Dream? Are their kids studying what they enjoy for naught? And what about the many Ph.D holders, BRILLIANT minds who are now driving buses, picking up our garbage, waiting our tables, bagging our groceries.. all to be able to just barely scrape by? Some now trapped on what is without a doubt an endless-treadmill of student debt! Besides, there are visas like the O-1 visa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-1_visa) that the truly "best and brightest" can apply for. The L-1, and H-1B visas have been abused for far too long on both corporate and potential employee sides, and its time for strict reform and regulation. I fear the almighty corporations will NOT let this go down without a bloody fight down to the last nerve-ending, and our future generations will continue making the more 'economical' choice of not pursuing STEM (Science, Tech, Engineer, Math) pursuits.. If at all.

What will I do? Soldier on into college (Computer science :) ) and pray that reform comes about. I fear the consequences of a lack thereof are already brewing on the horizon amongst some individuals.. Xenophobia, anger, racism..

Here's hoping!

[truebrit71]

34. Hey, you lot should be happy with the damn oscar you won...

...besides I thought we'd already shipped our jobs over to you in the last administration..??

;-)

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

35. Anger grows in America over India job and industry outsourcing.

:shrug:

[totodeinhere]

37. There should be no outsourcing as long as there are qualified Americans to do the same jobs. Period.

And if there are not enough qualified Americans to fill those jobs then we had better get around to training and educating Americans so that they are qualified for the tech jobs of the future.

I hold no ill will to Indians. But we have got to protect American jobs first.

[corpseratemedia]

38. we should be recording our outsourcing stories like

michael moore is doing with foreclosures.

Actually our stories often end up with facing foreclosure.

[whathehell]

40. You betcha! n/t

[Buns_of_Fire]

42. Chucklenuts sent them jobs and access to our civil nuclear technology...

...and we got their tasty, toothsome mangoes. (US and India seal nuclear accord):eyes:

As one of those who saw his career shipped off to Bangalore, I think I can be forgiven for thinking I got the short end of the stick. Nothing personal, guys, but India can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned.

[Egnever]

43. Easy to fix

just require corporations to pay foreign workers the same wages/benefits as their american counterparts would receive.

Should make the problem go away. We all know the H1-b visas are designed to drive down labor costs though so I will be surprised if they do anything resembling that.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

44. Precisely...

It's cheaper for American companies to pay the travel costs of these people rather than pay a reasonable wage for an American IT consultant.

Cheaper still to have them work remotely back home in India.

I totally agree that these companies should be REQUIRED to pay the prevailing wage (excluding outsourced workers) for this labor. The program was designed to ease labor shortages, not create a permanent professional underclass.

[lovuian]

45. It is because f the H1B visa program that we have

a depression its Outsourcing and it effects American workers

It makes no sense if Americans are out of work to give work to Foreigners

SORRY

[HughBeaumont]

48. You know what this thread needs? Thomas Friedman's opinion.

Tommy! Yeah you . . . guy who looks like the man on the wedding cake . . . tell us. You're usually on the Republican side of all things war and economic. What's the solution to America's turmoil?

While I think President Obama has been doing his best to keep the worst protectionist impulses in Congress out of his stimulus plan, the U.S. Senate unfortunately voted on Feb. 6 to restrict banks and other financial institutions that receive taxpayer bailout money from hiring high-skilled immigrants on temporary work permits known as H-1B visas.

“If you do this, it will be one of the best things for India and one of the worst for Americans, because Indians will be forced to innovate at home,” said Subhash B. Dhar, a member of the executive council that runs Infosys, the well-known Indian technology company that sends Indian workers to the U.S. to support a wide range of firms. “We protected our jobs for many years and look where it got us. Do you know that for an Indian company, it is still easier to do business with a company in the U.S. than it is to do business today with another Indian state?”

Each Indian state tries to protect its little economy with its own rules. America should not be trying to copy that. “Your attitude,” said Dhar, should be “ ‘whoever can make us competitive and dominant, let’s bring them in.’ ”

If there is one thing we know for absolute certain, it’s this: Protectionism did not cause the Great Depression, but it sure helped to make it “Great.” From 1929 to 1934, world trade plunged by more than 60 percent — and we were all worse off.

We live in a technological age where every study shows that the more knowledge you have as a worker and the more knowledge workers you have as an economy, the faster your incomes will rise. Therefore, the centerpiece of our stimulus, the core driving principle, should be to stimulate everything that makes us smarter and attracts more smart people to our shores. That is the best way to create good jobs.

:wtf:

Er . . . . Tommy? We . . . have plenty of those workers HERE. In AMERICA. ALREADY. Mostly under contract, underemployed or idled.

Oh waaaaaaaaait. I forgot . . . corporations want workers that don't selfishly demand that pesky thing called a "living wage". I mean, who needs to, you know . .. BUY STUFF, so said corporations can have that little thing called . . . "business"? Prosperity. Sheesh, hasn't anyone heard of Reaganomics? That's what TAX CUTS are there for. :sarcasm:

Conclusion: Thomas Friedman is a skyscraper-sized dick. And Jesus H GOD dude, it's called a Mach 3 Turbo. Look INTO it.

[cascadiance]

58. Wrong Thom... We need Thom Hartmann's viewpoint on this thread...

As you note Thomas Friedman misrepresents the globalization problem so corporately and underhandedly in a way to have a lot of people believe him who shouldn't.

Thom Hartmann has a far better perspective of the problems with outsourcing and illegal immigration, but it puts those issues in the right light about not only what is morally correct in dealing with these issues, but what is pragmatically correct, to come up with a sustainable solution that gives us back our middle class (and hopefully other countries helps them build a middle class where they are already rather than have them all be pushed to come over here to drive down our wages too.

[blue97keet]

49. Indian farmers had the sense to trash the Doha Round

so let's us have the sense to trash the H-1B visa, and for the same reasons.

[NoodleyAppendage]

53. Two words: TOUGH SHIT.

"Irrational protectionism" = we can't fuck over your citizenry and profit from it.

J

[-..__...]

54. Eliminate H-1B visas entriely.

Fuck'em... we don't need'em.

No new visas granted.

Exemptions might be allowed if an employer can prove a dire need and/or hardship with no other alternative.

Existing ones expire at the end of the 6 year contract/visa.

During that time, Americans should be recruited/educated/trained to fill the job vacancies.

Additionally... as a concurrent policy, prohibit or heavily regulate (or tax companies), that outsource jobs overseas that can easily be performed in this country.

Let them piss and moan and go back home or find a new line of work here if they don't like it.

[tabasco]

55. Ya' mean Bush's "open-door" policy is ending??

Boohoohoo!!!