Now the Pentagon tells Bush: climate change will destroy us

[Newsjock]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.html

Mark Townsend and Paul Harris in New York
Sunday February 22, 2004
The Observer

Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters..
A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.

The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the few experts privy to its contents.

'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.'

The findings will prove humiliating to the Bush administration, which has repeatedly denied that climate change even exists. Experts said that they will also make unsettling reading for a President who has insisted national defence is a priority.

The report was commissioned by influential Pentagon defence adviser Andrew Marshall, who has held considerable sway on US military thinking over the past three decades. He was the man behind a sweeping recent review aimed at transforming the American military under Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

more

[kskiska]

1. But they're worried about

abortion and same-sex marriage.

[havocmom]

17. No, they want the masses to worry about the decoy issues

while they gather up all the resources and cash to pay for the security forces to save their own sorry asses.

I firmly believe the extablished powers know there is serious disaster ahead and that is why all the haste in gathering up all the goodies.

[never cry wolf]

19. Y'know, I had the same thoughts exactly

Grab the goodies and beef up the military to protect the loot.

[Zhade]

34. Peak Oil certainly explains the last few decades of geopolitics.

Remember, it's not only all about oil, it's ALWAYS been all about oil, ever since America became a petroleum civilization.

[alfredo]

44. Oil, and strategic metals. That was what Vietnam was all about

Vietnam has tungsten, and they thought there would be a lot of off shore oil in the Mekong delta. The oil didn't pan out from what I heard, but we know they have the Tungsten. Nickel, tin, and copper can be found there too.

http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030162/Common/Handouts/POTUS/IKE.html

Now, with respect to the first one, two of the items from this particular area that the world uses are tin and tungsten. They are very important. There are others, of course, the rubber plantations and so on.

[TruthIsAll]

60. This is why Al Gore should be running.. n/t

He's eons above the rest.

[Minstrel Boy]

62. White House responds to peak oil: the problem isn't not enough oil,

it's that there are too many people.

[Demonaut]

52. I believe this scenario, It makes sense to use preemptive war to

maintain status quo, put a figure head in command, make decisions that concentrate power and control, wait for the inevitible collapse and hope that you come out on top...... Not hope but stack the deck in a manner to ensure that you come out on top. The truly desperate and evil face of this administration seemes to be showing itself.

[GermanDJ]

59. Very sad. Especially since I heard that kind of logic before

in history books ... about the situation in my country in the 1930s.

At that time the later dictator Hitler spread his infamous motto "Unser Volk braucht Raum" (our country has to expand). Mad as he was, he probably believed his own crazy propaganda.

The more I read about Peak Oil and global warming I can't help but wonder if there aren't better solutions than what the industrialized nations try today. The US and Great Britain have started to lead wars of aggression and again support dictators if they are useful to their interests. Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan are recent examples. My own government sells nuclear technology to China. I suspect that they do it in order to reduce China's need for carbon hydrogen energy sources and make China a lesser threat to their own oil interests.

There must be a better way than this. I have more and more the impression that history has started to repeat again. This time it's not about arable land but about energy sources and strategic interests.
Why the heck can't our leaders start to do their job, meet around round tables, discuss together their problems and help each other? It's my impression that the time for petty ideological conflicts between nations is finally over and our leaders must learn that there is more at stake than their silly popularity ratings.
If Cuba can solve its energy problems quite eloquently (as can be read on Mike Rupperts website www.fromthewilderness.com - see 'Drawing Lessons from Experience') why can't we?

It's really weird what's going on today. It seems that hardly any of our politicians cares about what's really important. And I think that the first step toward a better assessment of the really important issues of our times is to get rid of corrupt politicians. Some of the prime examples are George Bush, Tony Blair, Silvio Berlusconi and Jose Aznar.

[Crachet2004]

87. The biggest thing Bush&co have in common with the Hitler Regime...

Is their use of the Big Lie. And lies within lies. Peak Oil is definitely coming...but we are in Iraq due to Saddam dumping his forex reserves of dollars for euros. We have sent a warning to all the oilproducers by doing this.

That the dollar is the worlds reserve currency is a huge advantage for the united states...why we can run such huge deficits while no other nation is able to, among other things.

To the current administration, Peak oil and climate change are small issues when compared to the big money picture. The euro is here to stay and I think we must accomodate one another, or the rest of the world may well go to some other medium of exchange-as both the euro and dollar are fiat currencies. An oil backed currency, for example.

The reason the US is seemingly unable to convert to other forms of energy doesn't have to do with a lack of technology or capital, it is because oil around the world is priced in dollars. The dollar ties us to oil. Everyone needs oil and therefore needs dollars. Oil producers take the dollars and invest over here. And our entire economy is subsidized because of that. But now we have the euro.

People around the world are pissed at Bush and vote against him by dumping forex dollars and buying euros...that's why the dollar is crashing even though we control the oil. I think the Russians told him to kiss their ass first, when Putin was here last, but others have followed suit.

George Bush is killing this country in bigger ways than most Americans realize. Climate change? He doesn't care about that. The big concern is the dollar's struggle against the euro...but I don't think we can afford this struggle or George Bush much longer. The rest of the world has just about had it. And if THEY ALL dump their dollars for euros and gold, what happens then? Hyperinflation, which I know Germany has had some experience with.

[Zhade]

112. Dollar crashes, Great Depression II, riots, and then open rebellion.

That's my prediction for the next few years.

Keep your powder dry...

[Zhade]

111. Evil natures coupled with fear of the future.

It's a recipe for disaster.

I agree with so much of this post. Right on the money, in my opinion.

[Just Me]

2. Oh,...well, then...that explains everything *eom*

[kalian]

3. Wow....

couple this with Peak Oil and we're definitely up shit creek.
Oh well...

[alittlelark]

4. Bushco will ignore these findings

because God told him to.



http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml

[DS1]

5. As long as that scumbag Tommy Chong is watching it from

his cellblock :grr:

/sarcasm

[plaguepuppy]

28. Yeah, doncha feel much safer...

knowing a dangerous perp like him is locked away?

[DS1]

45. Yeah, considering I'm more likely to be hurt by exploding glassware

than exploding Al Qaeda bombs

[Zhade]

114. Chong had a pound of weed in his house. Wasn't prosecuted for it.

Instead, they did the paraphernalia and conspiracy charges.

THAT'S how you know it was all to send a message. Hell, Asscrotch probably wound up sharing the pound with b*sh while they watched reruns of "shock and awe".

God, but I hate those traitors with every fiber of my being.

[huckleberry]

6. from article in FORTUNE (2/9/2004)

CLIMATE COLLAPSE
The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
The climate could change radically, and fast. That would be the mother of all national security issues.


....In sum, the risk of abrupt climate change remains uncertain, and it is quite possibly small. But given its dire consequences, it should be elevated beyond a scientific debate. Action now matters, because we may be able to reduce its likelihood of happening, and we can certainly be better prepared if it does. It is time to recognize it as a national security concern.

The Pentagon's reaction to this sobering report isn't known—in keeping with his reputation for reticence, Andy Marshall declined to be interviewed. But the fact that he's concerned may signal a sea change in the debate about global warming. At least some federal thought leaders may be starting to perceive climate change less as a political annoyance and more as an issue demanding action.

If so, the case for acting now to address climate change, long a hard sell in Washington, may be gaining influential support, if only behind the scenes. Policymakers may even be emboldened to take steps such as tightening fuel-economy standards for new passenger vehicles, a measure that would simultaneously lower emissions of greenhouse gases, reduce America's perilous reliance on OPEC oil, cut its trade deficit, and put money in consumers' pockets. Oh, yes—and give the Pentagon's fretful Yoda a little less to worry about.

more at http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,582584-1,00.html

[SammyWinstonJack]

7. Stop the World! I wanna get off! NOW!

Who would even even consider having children, given this info?

[latebloomer]

13. My sentiments exactly

except I already have two beautiful precious children.

Goddess help us all.

[mouse7]

37. I'm making pies.

Makin' Pies - Patsy Griffin

It's not far
I can walk
Down the block
To TableTalk
Close my eyes
Make the pies all day

Plastic a cap
On my hair
I used to mind
Now I don't care
I used to mind
Now I don't care
Cause I'm gray

Did I show you this picture of my nephew
Taken at his big birthday surprise
At my sister's house last Sunday
This is Monday and I'm making pies
I'm making pies
Making pies
Pies

Thursday nights
I go and type
Down at the church
For Father Mike
It gets me out
And he ain't hard to like
At all

Jesus stares at me
In my chair
With his big blue eyes
And his honey brown hair
And he's looking at me
Way up there
On the wall

Did I show you this picture of my sweetheart
Taken of us before the war
Of the Greek and his Italian girl
One Sunday at the shore

We tied our ribbons to the fire escape
They were taken by the birds
Who flew home to the country
As the bombs rained on the world

5am
Here I am
Walking the block
To TableTalk
You could cry or die
Or just make pies all day
I'm making pies
Making pies
Making pies
Making pies

[arikara]

48. My only child decided not to have kids

I feel a little sad about it, but it is a relief too. I won't have to worry about the grandkids as these times get worse. And there may be some kids around that would like a surrogate granny...

[truthisfreedom]

8. gee, that's nifty. lucky for the bush family, they own a water bottling

company.

[Zhade]

35. Do they really? I did not know this. Though I am unsurprised.

NT!

[maggrwaggr]

51. yes, it's in Nigeria. If you want a bottle of water in Nigeria, you buy

it from Shrub's family.

and we wonder why America ain't so popular there.

[The Traveler]

9. I read a similar article on Fortune magazine's website recently

This is the real deal, people. We can't afford another four years of Mars-boy Bush and his squad of plunderers. I just hope whoever gets the nom beats Bush, and then has the spine to belly up to this bar.

[ms_splash]

10. Bush's excuse?

He's not a weatherman.

[jamesinca]

18. he will also say that it is good for business

It will open up a shipping lane in the arctic. This will lower prices to the consumer, so global warming and climate change are good. It will free up all of that water for the farmers so the price of doing business for the farmers will drop. It will melt the ice caps so we can drill for oil in previously unexplored areas and this will lower our dependence on foreign oil driving down the cost. There will be a job explosion. We will need people to fill in the Bering Strait to keep the waters back and then we can charge all of those people of Asian heritage a buck a head to go home.

Look at the big picture here people, this will be good for the US economy and our oil supply. That is what is important here.

[aquart]

23. Will Canada invade?

Should we be building walls?

I live in Manhattan. Should we be building dikes????????

[plaguepuppy]

25. Should we be building dikes????????

Warm coats would be a better idea!!

Hint: duck down with live ducks is much warmer!

[TrogL]

24. May I remind you

all that stuff is in Canadian territory?

Invading, are you?

[jamesinca]

46. No need to invade

Canada will be under water or ice, either way all those northern liberals will be gone. In some way I am sure in Bushes mind this is good for the economy also. Besides you need to think of it as expanding on your natural resources. Canada is currently home to 10% of all the fresh water in the world, after the weather shift it will be home to 50% of the fresh water. See it is increasing natural resources and Canada needs to embrace global warming as a national policy/goal.

[Klapaucius]

63. You'd be surprised..

The one guy that I work with a couple of nights a week is of the firm opinion that the US should take over Canada and Mexico, and make them pay taxes.

I'd say he doesn't have a problem with invading. If he's typical of that mindset, that's scary.

[Zhade]

36. "We will need people to fill in the Bering Strait"

My morbid thought after reading this was that they'll need lots of bodies to fill it. Yikes! I'm freaked out.

[Robb]

71. "It will open up a shipping lane in the arctic"!

LOL! That's the best thing I've read all morning! :D

[Comadreja]

99. Not just that

I think the Pentagon is seeing a rosey future for itself in all the coming conflict. The world's biggest bloated bureauocracy will be able to justify itself into the far future.

[Zhade]

115. That sig picture rules. Nice work!

NT!

[Strelnikov_]

11. Probably Concerns The 'Great Conveyor Belt'

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0130-11.htm

"The Great Conveyor Belt, while shaped by the Coriolis effect of the Earth's rotation, is mostly driven by the greater force created by differences in water temperatures and salinity. The North Atlantic Ocean is saltier and colder than the Pacific, the result of it being so much smaller and locked into place by the Northern and Southern American Hemispheres on the west and Europe and Africa on the east. "

. . .

"The out-flowing undersea river of cold, salty water makes the level of the Atlantic slightly lower than that of the Pacific, drawing in a strong surface current of warm, fresher water from the Pacific to replace the outflow of the undersea river. This warmer, fresher water slides up through the South Atlantic, loops around North America where it's known as the Gulf Stream, and ends up off the coast of Europe. By the time it arrives near Greenland, it's cooled off and evaporated enough water to become cold and salty and sink to the ocean floor, providing a continuous feed for that deep-sea river flowing to the Pacific. "

. . .

"Looking at the ice cores, however, scientists were shocked to discover that the transitions from ice age-like weather to contemporary-type weather usually took only two or three years. Something was flipping the weather of the planet back and forth with a rapidity that was startling."

. . .

"Most scientists involved in research on this topic agree that the culprit is global warming, melting the icebergs on Greenland and the Arctic icepack and thus flushing cold, fresh water down into the Greenland Sea from the north. When a critical threshold is reached, the climate will suddenly switch to an ice age that could last minimally 700 or so years, and maximally over 100,000 years.

And when might that threshold be reached? Nobody knows - the action of the Great Conveyor Belt in defining ice ages was discovered only in the last decade. Preliminary computer models and scientists willing to speculate suggest the switch could flip as early as next year, or it may be generations from now. It may be wobbling right now, producing the extremes of weather we've seen in the past few years. "

[JohnOneillsMemory]

12. Gee, national security, anyone? Apocalypse, anyone? Nevermind. n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. If I've seen one global disaster, I've seen 'em all.

"Honey...we need more ammo..."

[freeforall]

15. Don'tcha just love it when...

the government spends thousands of dollars on one more study that tells us what we already know from observation? Better to spend the money finding a solution.

What a bunch of a$$holes!

[chelaque liberal]

81. And then suppresses the results because they don't like them

"A secret report, SUPPRESSED by US defence chiefs......"

[Jack Rabbit]

16. And we allowed an election to be stolen for this?

Four years of missed opportunity on the climate crisis.

Also from the Observer:

Key findings of the Pentagon

· Future wars will be fought over the issue of survival rather than religion, ideology or national honour.
· By 2007 violent storms smash coastal barriers rendering large parts of the Netherlands inhabitable. Cities like The Hague are abandoned. In California the delta island levees in the Sacramento river area are breached, disrupting the aqueduct system transporting water from north to south.
· Between 2010 and 2020 Europe is hardest hit by climatic change with an average annual temperature drop of 6F. Climate in Britain becomes colder and drier as weather patterns begin to resemble Siberia.
· Deaths from war and famine run into the millions until the planet's population is reduced by such an extent the Earth can cope.
· Riots and internal conflict tear apart India, South Africa and Indonesia.

Read more.

[jamesinca]

20. Sounds like Mad Max and thta whole road warrior thing

I think water world may be more accurate if the ice caps melt. Life imitates art.

[plaguepuppy]

22. Serious as a heart attack

Actually I think sea levels would drop since much of northern Europe would be under glaciers. Once the short-term warming (that we are doing everything possible to accelerate) flips the toggle switch of the Atlantic convection cell to the "off" position it stays off for a long time, and the dominant effect is of large-scale cooling in the northern latitudes. Even before the glaciers start to advance the carrying capacity of the European continent will nosedive: no fuel for the long cold winters, much less food production.

I've followed this issue for decades, and have become more and more convinced that it is not only real, but that the tipping point is almost certainly within the next few years.

[reprobate]

32. Yes, and they're saying the conveyor will stop suddenly,

There will come a threshold point when the fresh water from the arctic desalinates the atlantic to the point that the conveyor just stops.

At that point the weather patterns of the world will change quickly. Northern europe and North america will get colder and drier, while the southern latitudes will get hotter and stormier. Sounds to me like the start of a new cave culture.


BTW, the Nation also reported on this pentagon study.

[ldf]

73. and rather than do something about the causes

the corporates in charge will see $$ signs in the situation.

you know, like maybe building giant underwater propellers that will "propel" that water where it should go.

that way we could continue on the course we have been and milk even more money out of destroying the planet.

it's the american way.

[hatrack]

117. Ocean conveyers (and climate regimes) can also "flicker"

This shows up in glacial core and sediment records - periods of 10, 20 or 30 years in which thermohaline cycles, ice sheet movements and temperature regimes can move rapidly back and forth. "Rapidly" in geologic terms, of course, but also with profound potential impacts on agriculture, transportation and pretty much all other human endeavors.

There's a very interesting book which gives some of the basic science behind these projections. It's by Richard Alley, a professor of geosciences at Pennsylvania State, called "The Two-Mile Time Machine: Ice Cores, Abrupt Climate Change And Our Future". Very interesting piece of science writing.

[Emillereid]

50. You and me both -- I too have been convinced that when the

climate shifts it does so very fast. All the talk that we had decades to deal with it were not looking at the ice melting right in front of them. The ice core samples indicated that changes in the gulf stream conveyor were dramatic -- and everywhere ice is melting, releasing more and more fresh water into the North Atlantic. The nail in the coffin for me on this issue was a friend's report that her native iceland has lost most of its ice in just the last few years. She's is her sixties and says no one remembers anything even remotely like it. All sorts of species have been going under too unable to cope with with the increasing heat. So many animals and plants are very sensitive to even slight changes in temperature. The canary is dying, but where do we go.


Anybody think real estate in either Africa or South America might be a good investment. I'd consider Australia but I understand all the other 'conveyor belt' streams will also be affected and lots of awful storms, etc. are expected to impact the pacific.

[roscoeroscoe]

86. suggested reading

for anyone not familiar with kim stanley robinson's sci-fi triligy,
"red mars, green mars, & blue mars" you've got to consider reading these works.
robinson goes through the kind of future we're facing and finds hope. please don't dismiss this as utopian, these works are important and special.
don't give in to dispair. the solution is still there, though time is short...
not all possible futures are dark. follow the science but don't lose hope. and check out robinson!
thanks

[aquart]

26. Isn't it time for a national aqueduct system?

Or are we letting Americans just die for convenience?

[LifeDuringWartime]

31. wow

looks like the earth's immune system is kicking in!

[kodi]

21. this is where i came in.

[pinniped]

27. It doesn't matter.

pres. AHOLE will just fire them all because they told AHOLE something it doesn't want to hear.

These people in the wh really are stupid.

"The findings will prove humiliating to the Bush administration, which has repeatedly denied that climate change even exists."

[plaguepuppy]

29. Sad but true

It takes a conscience to feel humiliated. These guys are brazen liars without the slightest capacity for remorse, much to all our sorrow.

[pink_poodle]

53. Right on!! -nm

:

[InvisibleTouch]

30. The Biggest Issue

Even if we're not actually facing a disaster of this magnitude, no one can legitimately deny that our climate is being progressively screwed up and our planet poisoned. This is why environmental protection is the single biggest issue in the upcoming election. It gets buried under other subjects - education, economy, separation of church and state, civil/gay/women's rights, etc. - all of which are majorly important issues, I'll grant you, and all of which are important to me - but if we don't have a livable planet, every other question is moot. Four years ago I put a sign on my car that said "Gore 2000: For Earth's Sake". Our next Democratic president will need to work twice as hard to make up for lost time.

[Lorien]

39. I've been saying the same for years, but most liberals

don't even list the environment as one of their top ten issues! When I've asked why, I often get "well, people and jobs are more important" or "it's just too big an issue, what can I do about it"? Well, subsidizing Hummers and underfunding alternative fuel research while clear cutting forests is THE WRONG thing to do about it, for starters, and we should be screaming about that! What good is a job if there's no food to purchase to begin with? If you don't have a planet to live on, what's the point of any of this? Everyone seems to think that someone else at some other time will fix this. Now is the time, or we'll be out of time in short order. Ask your candidate to MAKE this a major issue of his campaign, before it's the ONLY issue any of us are discussing!

[InvisibleTouch]

66. Exactly!

"What good is a job if there's no food to purchase to begin with?"

Exactly! I suspect most people can't even imagine that we could ever get to this point, that's the problem. It sounds like sci-fi. The scary thing is, when the time comes (perhaps not too far away), everyone will be completely unprepared.

Politics is an instant gratification game; no one wants to take the necessary long-term view and tell people they do have to cut down on consumption, they do have to completely overhaul industry and the status quo, they do have to curb the population explosion - because the masses don't want to hear that. A politician with the courage to tell people what they need to hear, as opposed to what they want to hear, will never win an election ... until it's too late, perhaps.

[sandnsea]

107. Mine did

But he's just a corporate whore... don't listen to him or you will be assimilated... :eyes: dumbest primary ever.

[reprobate]

33. This sure sounds like a MAJOR campaign plank

After all, it's THEIR pentagon that reported on it. Who are you going to believe, when both the scientific community and the pentagon are saying the same thing.

[aeon flux]

38. Bush will use this report

to justify his current actions in the ME.

Grab all the scarce resources you can while the gettin's good.

[gate of the sun]

40. interesting the pending enviromental doom

we could be facing will only bring more wars.....hmmmmmm. I don't know what I think about this article....it sounds like a justification to have lots of wars,strange. I don't negate the fact that we could be facing serious enviromental issues by 2020 but I just don't like the tone or idea that all that will give us is more war..I'ts funny they don't talk about working together to do what we can to offset any future problems now....

[krkaufman]

67. Pentagon's take is always more war

I'm just glad that the Pentagon has reported on the likelihood of global warming causing a rapid shift in climate; I take their predictions of war with a grain of salt, though, considering the source. We *do* have other options, so long as we start addressing the possibilities before they become actualities.

[Mari333]

41. So where is it safe to live?

Is there a map that shows where the most dangerous places to live are? Im next to one of the Great Lakes...2 of my sons are moving to Hawaii..what do I tell them? I sent them this and believe in telling them the truth..to make all decisions about how they want to live based on the possibility that in a decade there will be a mess to deal with of maximum proportions.
Maybe its time I started using what acreage I have for food.
In the meantime, maybe its also time I changed my own life..get off the net, turn things off more often, and start living like its already happened. and will Michigan also go Siberian? seems the summers are hotter and the winter this year was hell.
I dont know. This is a lot to wrap my mind around on top of everything else in my life. Sometimes I think maybe we should all just kill ourselves, us older people, so the young ones have a chance. If someone told me thats what I would have to do to save my kids, I would.
I was scared today, knowing one kid is in Iraq...Now Im terrified. Money will mean nothing now? I might buy more land.

[Catherine Vincent]

42. I'd like to know also.

What about the South? Will it fall into the Gulf?

[plaguepuppy]

43. Yeah, but then it rises again!

Sorry, but how can you not joke about the end of the world?

[opihimoimoi]

47. Those guys been Reading DU???

We been saying that for years.

[Hekate]

91. The Islands are so vulnerable

"2 of my sons are moving to Hawaii..what do I tell them?"

I loved the Islands with all my heart, but one big reason I finally left back in '79 is that it is just not sustainable. It's the Earth in microcosm -- there's too many people for the water and land, most everything has to be shipped in, and dock strikes you never even hear about on the Mainland are major news there.(No US President has ever invoked the Taft-Hartley Act to compel West Coast dockworkers to load goods for Hawaii during a strike.) Within the year before I left there were a series of transportation strikes in the airlines and ships. My mother in California had two major surgeries, and I could not even get a plane ticket off Oahu. I found out years later that a lot of my old high school and university classmates left too, for economic reasons.

Since then I've lived 3 miles from the ocean in California on a piece of coastline almost (but not quite) as easily cut off as an island, as I figured out during a 1990 major forest fire that tried to march from the mountains to the sea, and jumped the freeway and all parallel roads on its way. At this moment I can't figure out if my house will drown in the rising seas or if we'll freeze to death because stucco houses aren't built for snow.

Any good ideas about where else to live gladly considered!

Hekate

[llmart]

93. Mari333

I practice voluntary simplicity. I have read many books on the subject, and decided that since I've always been an environmentalist it is my duty to my children and any children they may subsequently have, to live simply. I live in Michigan too and the greed and consumption here is incredible! I haven't always lived here - just the past 11 years. Also, to all of you who haven't read it, go to the library and pick up Al Gore's book "Earth in the Balance". He has an incredible mind. Too bad we've had to live through 3 years of this monstrously evil administration.

[lebkuchen]

49. The crocuses in Germany are blooming now, earlier than usual

In my neck of the woods, they bloom in mid-March. The tulips are coming up, too, though they haven't flowered, yet.

It's too bad. A frost will probably kill all the spring blooms.

[rooboy]

56. And here in my part of Australia today...

we just endured the hottest February day for more than 80 years. 2 weeks ago we had a series of storms that were more savage than anything I'd seen in a long time, too. Something is definitely going haywire...

[lebkuchen]

57. I hope you Aussies will be making a symbolic token contribution

to the democratic party right after the convention. World events dictate the need for a global effort to oust Bush. It's in everyone's best interests. $5 AD from every labor party member to the DNC would send a signal: Get us a US president that doesn't talk "braille."

[rooboy]

61. I thought contributions from foreigners were illegal...

I limit myself to sending money to DU and "liberal" media.

[lebkuchen]

77. Are they? Pity.

There are so many around the world who would love to tell the Chimp, via their pocketbooks, to "piss off."

[Fovea]

79. but bless your heart

for caring enough about your brothers and sisters across the big water to do that.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. This past summer London reported their first day at 100+ degrees F....

...while continental Europe endured temperatures well above 110 degrees F. Approximately 20,000 died from heat-related illnesses in France alone.

Here in northern Alabama, just north of the Tennessee River, we are having our fourth consecutive winter without any significant snowfall...it used to snow here every year prior to 1999.

[librechik]

80. wasn't there severe flooding in New Zealand last week?

It cutt Wellington off from other parts of the country, I heard...

[Emillereid]

54. Check out the graphic the Guardian has for this story:

Here's a link to the story. http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/0,7722,,00.html

[lebkuchen]

55. Now THAT would make an excellent avatar

How does one go about it?

[Piperay]

58. Yes, but

chimp SAYS global warming does not exist, so how can this be.(sarcasm) :wtf:

[T Bone]

64. Is it safe to assume that the TOP of a watershed is the safest place ?

If you live in an interior area with no major rivers running through it, that is the top of a watershed, right ? I mean as far as the inundation of civilization scenario. So does Altoona PA become a seaport after this happens?

[Gothic Sponge]

65. Irony!

I find it sad that conservatives fear change. However, they are possibly going to be very instrumental in making the biggest changes to this planet.

[Mari333]

69. Only because many in Bu$h's base believe that a fairy tale person

in the sky will swoop down and take them all away.
Remember, 61% of people in the USA think the world was created in 6 days.
Its disconcerting and horrifying. I am wondering what old age will be like, and it looks worse and worse. My mom is 77 and she will not have to live thru it, but I will, whats worse is my 3 kids will. And my oldest son talks of marriage and children. I cant control whether they will be safe or not, but I will just sit tight on this little piece of land and they can all come home anytime they need to. I have enough to start some gardens again and I think its time I used the forest here as food (theres plenty if you know what to forage) dont laugh, its true. I have plenty of wild blackberries and nettles and ferns that are very delicious. and a pond with fish. In the meantime, theres the problem of oil. I am thinking of solar panels on the house, but I dont have much sun on the coast of Michigan. I might check into that with someone, and we have already gotten our lives down to living with pretty much nothing more then a few rooms and little food. Hunker down and get by.
So many baby boomers, the bane of the country in a way. Would we as baby boomers be willing to give up our spots on the planet for our kids to make it? I would. In a heartbeat. I would be more then willing to .

[Comadreja]

100. As far as I'm concerned

The best any of us could do for the future of our planet is not reproduce. Proud to say I've done my part.

[plaguepuppy]

74. You mean if you're not planning to evolve gills?

Generally speaking yes. I know more about Central California - the San Joaquin Valley will become an inland sea connected to the Pacific via the SF Bay, and where I live (Visalia)will be on the east shore more or less. The Sierras will of course still be dry land, and the foothills ~20 miles east of here should make for some interesting little islands.

[Athame]

82. and all my life I thought it would be earthquakes

that caused California to "fall off into the sea." ;) Talk about being up shit creek, the manure mountains of Harris ranch alone will make that one stinking lake.

Not really grinning. I have a lot of family and friends in that potential sea...from Davis to Modesto.

The other issue here is that the Central Valley is absolutely critical in food production.

[Kool Kitty]

78. I guess I better travel out there to take one last look

at Horseshoe Curve before it gets submerged. All joking aside, this really scares the shit out of me. So, when these scientists went to visit W, what was his reaction, except to get defensive about the press reports in Europe? Was he frightened? Did he have a plan? A clue? Anything? What would this do to the growing season here in the US? I am assuming that if the Canadians and the British would be covered with ice, that would also mean that a good area in the northern US would be ice-covered. Would this not displace millions of people all over the world? Would other countries allow them to immigrate? (Fat chance, and since we seem to be a bit short of friends lately, um...) This sounds like the end of civilization to me, but maybe I'm just a pessimist at heart. Still, it is scary. And where is our media about this? They were quick enough to pick up an unsubstantiated rumor about John Kerry, among other bullshit stories, where is the mention anywhere about this, besides in the European press? I mean, it's OUR Pentagon that is saying this, for crissake. Why isn't OUR media reporting it?

[plaguepuppy]

104. The Horshoe Curve on the way to Three Rivers?

That's above the dam on the Kaweah, so it wouldn't be affected. Actually they're almost finished raising that bridge so that they can raise the dam a little. But the valley floor would certainly be covered - the Kaweah Lake bed that is now drained and the home of enormous corporate farms (J.G. Boswell mostly) would re-fill and gradually expand along the existing drainages.

As to agriculture it would be very hard hit throughout the northern hemisphere, most of Europe and Russia would become completely uncultivatable, and the irrigation agriculture here in the valley that depends on snowfall in the Sierras would be very hard hit. In addition to carrying a lot of heat northward, the Atlantic current also carries a lot of moisture. Stopping it means a much colder drier climate throughout the now-temperate latitudes.

[Kool Kitty]

106. If you mean the Horseshoe Curve

in Pennsylvania (in Altoona), then that's the one I mean.

The rest of your post, well, that's what I figured. It would affect everything. This does scare me, because I don't think we'll have much notice. If this is the phenomonom that preceeded the last Ice Age, the mastadons and mammoths didn't seem to have much notice. They get dug up or disgorged from retreating glaciers with undisgested food in their mouths and stomachs. Sounds pretty quick to me. And even if we did get some warning, where would everybody go? Scary stuff.

[plaguepuppy]

109. Wrong curve

I was talking about a place out here, up in the Sierras about 30 miles east of me - sorry, don't know any Pennsylvania geography.

But yes, the beginnings of the cold episodes have recently been shown to be very rapid, mostly because of what we have learned from ice core data. The transition from one state to the other was found to be on a years-to-decades scale, not the 100's to 10000's of years we used to believe. That leaves way too little time for humankind to adapt to the changes, especially being as dependent as we are on big centralized systems of manufacture and food production.

An bit of a digression: the frozen mammoths actually are a puzzle for which mainstream geology has not come with a very convincing solution. They were essentially flash-frozen, there are lots of them over large areas of Siberia, and the meat was fresh enough for dogs to eat when thawed out. And yes, intact daisies and other flowers native to warm climates are found in their stomaches. That implies very rapid cooling. This and other evidence such as the widespread "drift deposits" in the northern hemisphere led most geologists prior to the 20th century and the rise of Darwinism to believe that there had been at least one major global flood with "translation waves" that carried debris across whole continents. The major event identified as the biblical flood of Noah seems to have occurred about 8,000 years ago based on geologic and radiocarbon dating, and was most likely caused by the close flyby of a large comet. Comets are known to contain water, and a sudden inundation of very cold cometary water might explain the quick-frozen mammoths.

[54anickel]

70. Are the Saudi's in some way trying to prepare for this?

In some way get the key economic factors under citizens and them somehow take it all away?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=378548

[RainDog]

72. Gore was featured in a full-page ad in the NYT on Fri

Move-on featured a portion of the Gore speech in which he called Bush a moral coward for Bush's failure to address the biggest issue facing us and the entire world: global warming.

Gore said that Bush is pandering to a few industrial fat cats who want to deny the problem (my paraphrase.)

I was surprised and happy to see the ad. btw, move on sent an email that noted it had more than 2 MILLION members now...

MORE than the so-called Christian Coalition at its largest.

Move on has shown the success that grass roots organizing can have, and the value of shared information and calls and faxes to Congress.

We need to make sure Congress knows that WE know about this issue and that we expect IMMEDIATE leadership.

This Pentagon report should be read into the Congressional Record, and a rebuke from democrats to Bush for his failure to admit this most dangerous threat to our nation should be included.

Funny, the Hopi elders, or traditionalists, have an prophecy about the "end-time" of the rule of the white people based upon similar scenarios and those we see today.

I'm not a "true believer," but I do think the Hopi traditionalists have good advice...which is to treat the earth as your real and true mother, and cease and desist immediately in the rape and pillage of earth via all the intrusive western attitudes.

I know that won't happen...we won't immediately stop coal mining on their sacred land to light Lost Vegas, for instance, but Lost Vegas could use solar fuel cells IMMEDIATELY to light their hotels, for instance.

At a personal level...yeah, I think it's safer to live on high ground (the Hopi's recommend this too), and learn how to grow foods the "old ways" --the Hopi grew maize w/o large-scale soil disruption....square foot gardening is a white person's equivalent, I suppose.

Finding ways to make your own dwelling energy self-sufficient would be the equivalent of storing grain for the famine type thinking, as would growing things you can store, and storing them in ways that are energy self-sufficient (i.e. running a freezer off fuel cells rather than the power grid.)

There are tons of magazines on the market today which discuss ways to be self-sufficient in both energy terms, and in terms of growing food and other plants to replace other things.

Look up Countryside, Backwoods Home, Harrow...something another...

And we should all DEMAND that our govt immediately lift the restriction on growing hemp.

Hemp is not psychotropic, but is an EXCELLENT replacement for wood pulp for paper, which will help keep trees. Also hemp is a great source of fiber for clothing and other items.

Hemp is also a source for oil, as in EFAs, is a nutritious food source, grows like a weed, endures lots of heat, and is unnecessarily and stupidly illegal.

...and Free Tommy Chong and lock up Bush while we're at it!

..it's not surprising to me that Bush can deny global warming when he thinks god has told him to invade other countries, or when his Congresspeople think it's not insane to deny evolution.

[callous taoboy]

76. It's too late,

according to a scientist friend of mine in Juneau who has been studying global warming for 25 years. He likens the coming disaster and our response to it to a cruise ship heading for an iceberg and trying to steer clear of it but the ship cannot be steered away fast enough.

[plaguepuppy]

105. The ocean liner is a good analogy

This article talks about the dynamics of the system, and how it does have a kind of inertia. He likens it to there being a gas pedal and a brake. By the best current modeling if we immediately put both feet on the brakes (within the next 2-3 years), i.e. do everything possible to decrease CO2 preduction ASAP, we *might* be able to stop it from shutting off.

http://wikyonos.seos.uvic.ca/people/weaver/documents/NatureNV2.html

"His results suggest that the present-day conveyor may be less stable than many researchers have thought. He further suggests that 0.06 x 106 m3s-1 of additional freshwater continually maintained into the North Atlantic could irreversibly shut down the conveyor with a pronounced cooling effect on the surrounding areas."
...
" Through analogy between the ocean conveyor and an automobile we can consider the thermal forcing to act as the accelerator pedal. On the other hand, net high latitude precipitation, runoff and ice melt and low latitude evaporation tend to oppose the thermally-driven thermohaline circulation (much like the brake pedal in our automobile). In today's North Atlantic the thermal forcing dominates over the haline (freshwater) forcing and the conveyor belt moves forward with deep water forming in the Greenland, Iceland and Norwegian (GIN) Seas through intense heat loss to the overlying atmosphere."
...
"The work of Rahmstorf has put many pieces of the climate puzzle together. He has shown (Fig. 1) the existence of multiple modes of operation of the conveyor under present-day forcing; the existence of rapid transitions between these modes; the existence of unstable, variable regimes. Most importantly he has provided a dramatic illustration of where our present climate sits on the stability curve."

Home page of the author:

http://wikyonos.seos.uvic.ca/people/weaver/weaver-research.html

[Rose Siding]

75. Instant solution to bushco's econ problems

The index shoots up as the patriots at Raytheon, Hallipoop, Boeing all line up, coffers extended, to pitch in on this new bigger-than-terrorism war-without-end effort.

How much biblical irony can a gal take? bush PROFITS from the mess his contributors continue to make. Hell, he might even rake in the enviro vote in the process.

[74dodgedart]

96. Of course we'll need more tax cuts......

Nothing works without more tax cuts...

[missile_bender]

83. No hyperbole--this may be the most important news in histrory and

every press worldwide needs to investigate it pronto! Write every major press outlet you know and tell them they need to cover this. It is no exaggeration to say our very survival depends on this. Finally, we see a real external threat to our way of life, not Saddam, not Bin Laden. But climate change. It is the reponsibility of every nation on Earth to investigate this thoroughly and scientifically to see if it is true and if so to put all available resources to handle it. Any other way lies madness and destruction.

[Danieljay]

84. Don't worry, Mel Gibsons "The Passion"

Will scare the beJesus into fearful Americans, Bush will declare the second coming, and all will be saved. Move along, nothing to see here.

[slack]

97. seems to be true

;) hey, it's a good joke.

[5thGenDemocrat]

85. Meanwhile, this just in: "THE PRESIDENT'S DOG IS STILL DEAD!"

Now, here's Chuck Biscuits with the weather.
John
Back to you, Dan.

[nolabels]

89. Dan's out of town today, stepping in for Dan is ...............

You know my fucking cat got run over last week but thanks to miracle of Tee Vee we can know the reasons of why such important issues like why Spot can't run.

Just keeping in perspective, Jim Morris quoted about something going with the saying like "nobody gets out of alive" (anyway) I take this a cue not to get too excited, it's not worth it.

http://www.publiceyestv.org/about.htm
(snip)
"We appear to be a species out of control,
setting in motion processes that we do not
understand with consequences we cannot foresee."
Lester R. Brown, Earth Policy Institute
from his new book
"Plan B: Rescuing a Planet under Stress and a Civilization in Trouble"

Our modern civilization is in trouble. We have created a bubble economy whose output is artificially inflated by over consuming the earth's natural capital and resources.

Our existing economic output is based in part on deforesting the earth, cutting trees faster than they can grow, converting native forests into monoculture tree farms, overgrazing rangelands and converting them into deserts, using chemical based agriculture that poisons our land, water, bodies and is killing tens of thousands of square miles of sea life in the Gulf of Mexico, over pumping aquifers and draining rivers dry. The Colorado River and Rio Grande River no longer flow to the sea. Groundwater aquifers are falling all around the world as new pumping technology allows water to be pumped from greater depths faster than the water is being replaced. The Ogalala aquifer in the central Great Plains states is a good example. California is experiencing similar problems. In 2003, water wars in the Northwest were waged between unsustainable agriculture in Oregon and Washington versus water for the survival of wild salmon. The farmers are winning. Water wars are popping up all over the world as demand and population increases. The present rate of net population growth is not quite 80 million new souls each year, about 152 new babies per second, 219,000 per day, another New York City every month, a new United States every 3 years 9 months.

The bubble economy is highly evident in the food sector where the world grain and food harvest has been inflated by over pumping aquifers for irrigated agriculture, a practice that guarantees a future drop in agricultural production when aquifers are depleted. The wakeup call may come within the next few years when China's shrinking grain harvest forces it into the world market for massive quantities of grain to feed 1.2 billion people. Rising food prices may be the first worldwide economic indicator to signal serious trouble between the global economy and the earth's ecosystem.

Other environmental demise indicators are all around us, such as the dead zone and other events in the Gulf of Mexico from Texas to the Florida Keys, recently reported in extensive detail by Public Eyes TV, the Naples (Florida) Daily News, other Scripps newspapers in the Gulf region and public television in Florida. The dead zone in the Gulf now encompasses more than 25,000 square miles. Coral reefs in the Keys are dying at record rates. Excess nutrients, sediment, chemical and fertilizer residues, industrial pollution and untreated human waste from rivers are killing the Gulf.

We are releasing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere faster than the earth can absorb it, creating global warming. The projected rise in the earth's temperature during this century could match the rise in temperature between the last ice age and the present, but over a time span of less than 100 years rather than tens of thousands of years. No one knows how plants and animals will be able to adapt to such rapid change.
(snip)

[plaguepuppy]

108. Another KT extinction event

Just read something on the current rate of species loss, from Richard Leakey. The baseline rate is one species lost every 4 years on average. We are now losing somewhere around 50,000 a year, about equal to the rate of loss during the KT event:

"So what is the Sixth Extinction? When is it coming? And what is its cause? "It's the next annihilation of vast numbers of species. It is happening now, and we, the human race, are its cause," explains Dr. Richard Leakey, the world's most famous paleoanthropologist. Every year, between 17,000 and 100,000 species vanish from our planet, he says. "For the sake of argument, let's assume the number is 50,000 a year. Whatever way you look at it, we're destroying the Earth at a rate comparable with the impact of a giant asteroid slamming into the planet, or even a shower of vast heavenly bodies." The statistics he has assembled are staggering. Fifty per cent of the Earth's species will have vanished inside the next 100 years; mankind is using almost half the energy available to sustain life on the planet, and this figure will only grow as our population leaps from 5.7 billion to ten billion inside the next half-century. Such a dramatic and overwhelming mass extinction threatens the entire complex fabric of life on Earth, including the species responsible for it: Homo sapiens."

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/sixthextinction.html

[rawtribe]

88. It's just mother earth

doing a parasite cleanse. It won't be fun for us parasites, but she'll feel much better in the long run.

[abracadabra]

90. Nature Recoils

Those secret bank accounts they're setting up for their offspring-
-all those "elite" Carlyle group Halliburton folks got another thing coming
Too bad for those of us caught in the middle of their hoarding..
Money will be worth NOTHING.

Sanity will be worth a fortune.

[Gothic Sponge]

92. The really sad part...

I posted this story on another message board, and it was over shadowed by the death of Bush's dog. I love dogs, but let's get some perspective people!

[llmart]

94. Perspective???

You want perspective??? How about all the ceaseless, banal chatter this AM on all the news stations about the last episode of "Sex in the City"? Now THERE'S something we should be concerning ourselves with; not the health of the planet or anything.

End of my sarcastic rant.

[Comadreja]

101. Remember the mysterious sounds of excavation

....coming from the Cheney compound in D.C.a few years ago?

[74dodgedart]

95. Clearly the work of all those liberal, Clinton-appointed Generals

Who want to subvert our way of life. Well, dubya is too smart to fall for that......He'll get Rummy to fire them.....

</sarcasm>

[Comadreja]

98. Could this explain the strange compliance of the British Establishment?

Wonder what the EU thinks of all this?

[nolabels]

102. * tells the Euro-peons how to feel, remember............

http://www.presentdanger.org/frontier/2002/1127power_body.html
The "Great Evil" and the Great Power

By Tom Barry
November 27, 2002
(snip)
President Bush took this message to the Czech Republic last week when he addressed the NATO leaders. Europeans need to take off their rose-colored glasses, rid themselves of the new fixation on diplomatic solutions, and face the "great evil" that is stirring in the world. He reminded Europeans that they, more than most, should know that evil cannot be placated but must be opposed--not when the barbarians are at the gate but at the first glimpse of the "face of evil."

Like the Nazis and the Communists, Bush said, "the terrorists seek to end lives and control all life." But the visage of evil conjured up by Bush during his European trip was not that of Bin Laden, who still lives and threatens, but that of Saddam Hussein. Iraq's dictator was singled out as the "great evil" who "by his search for terrible weapons, by his ties to terrorist groups, threatens the security of every free nation, including the free nations of Europe."

This was a call for peace through strength, peace through war--not diplomacy, arms control, or inspection teams. It was a reminder that appeasement with evil only gives evil a chance to breed.

America's president is not a historian, but he is surrounded by neoconservative ideologues who are obsessed with the history of appeasement. In the writings of Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, William Bennett, Peter Rodman, and others so influential in forging the radical foreign policy doctrines of the Bush administration, the history of appeasement with Hitler at Munich in 1938 and the cold war's policies of détente and containment (rather than rollback) with the Soviet Union and China are constant themes.

These hawks and ideologues have since the early 1990s argued that unipolar America should use its supreme power to effect "regime changes" around the world rather than hope and prod for reform and transitions. During the 1990s, they railed against the "return to normalcy" of a post-cold war foreign policy that lacked "moral clarity" and a conviction to be strong.
(snip)

[blackspade]

103. Actually this is not as outlandish as it seems...

Check this link to the Woods Hole Institute for more...

http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/abruptclimate_joyce_keigwin.html

-snip-
Our limited knowledge of ocean climate on long time scales, extracted from the analysis of sediment cores taken around the world ocean, has generally implicated the North Atlantic as the most unstable member of the conveyor: During millennial periods of cold climate, North Atlantic Deep Water (NADW) formation either stopped or was seriously reduced. And this has generally followed periods of large freshwater discharge into the northern N. Atlantic caused by rapid melting of glacial or multi-year ice in the Arctic Basin. It is thought that these fresh waters, which have been transported into the regions of deep water formation, have interrupted the conveyor by overcoming the high latitude cooling effect with excessive freshening.

The ocean conveyor need not stop entirely when the NADW formation is curtailed. It can continue at shallower depths in the N. Atlantic and persist in the Southern Ocean where Antarctic Bottom Water formation continues or is even accelerated. Yet a disruption of the northern limb of the overturning circulation will affect the heat balance of the northern hemisphere and could affect both the oceanic and atmospheric climate. Model calculations indicate the potential for cooling of 3 to 5 degree Celsius in the ocean and atmosphere should a total disruption occur. This is a third to a half the temperature change experienced during major ice ages.

These changes are twice as large as those experienced in the worst winters of the past century in the eastern US, and are likely to persist for decades to centuries after a climate transition occurs. They are of a magnitude comparable to the Little Ice Age, which had profound effects on human settlements in Europe and North America during the 16th through 18th centuries. Their geographic extent is in doubt; it might be limited to regions bounding the N. Atlantic Ocean. High latitude temperature changes in the ocean are much less capable of affecting the global atmosphere than low latitude ones, such as those produced by El Niño.


There is more info on the site as well.
enjoy....

[plaguepuppy]

110. An interesting geology story

About the New Madrid earthquake of 1811 that changed the course of the Mississipi river:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/Tecumseh.html

[nolabels]

116. Welcome aboard blackspade

Cool site, the weather assessment possibly, but prediction of human activity because of it could be specious,(remember,the Pentagon has the Office of Special Plans-OSP)

If anything your site here seems to come to the conclusion that a lot more could be gleamed and predictions are still far away, from another page we have this

http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/index.htm
(snip)
Today, sweeping new ocean-monitoring technologies give us unprecedented capabilities to unravel the complex processes that drive ocean circulation. For the first time in human history, we have the potential to forecast ocean-related climate changes—instead of being completely at their mercy.”

—William Curry, Director and Senior Scientist

Earth’s climate control system
The oceans cover 71% of Earth’s surface and contain 1,100 times more heat than the atmosphere. Slowly circulating, they redistribute huge amounts of heat around the planet and establish the underlying conditions that ultimately lead to storms, hurricanes, severe winters, monsoon seasons, El Niños, rainfall patterns, and other climate fluctuations.

Shifting ocean circulation affects climate
Breakthroughs in understanding El Niño demonstrated how shifting ocean circulation patterns can rearrange worldwide climate, weather, and rainfall. Scientists of the Ocean and Climate Change Institute are investigating other oscillating ocean circulation patterns, such as the North Atlantic Oscillation, that influence climates in various regions. They are examining the fundamental processes that drive Earth’s global ocean circulation system, called the Ocean Conveyor. And they are studying ocean-related changes that can cause rapid, catastrophic climate changes.

The huge potential of reliable climate forecasts
The Ocean and Climate Change Institute is at the forefront of developing technology to establish a global ocean-observing network comparable to the land-based system meteorologists use to make weather forecasts. Climate forecasts would give people opportunities to reduce damage and suffering caused by floods, droughts, severe winters, forest fires, and climate-related epidemics such as malaria and cholera that kill millions of people. They would provide a boon for farmers, fishermen, consumers, naval personnel, and officials in charge of transportation, utilities, water supplies, public health, disaster relief—anyone whose life or livelihood is affected by weather.
(snip)

Then people wonder why * and cabal like to sack publicly funded science ventures

[Dr Fate]

113. I hate to say I told ya so...

...but I told ya so!!!