When Little Girls Tell Big Lies

[dArKeR]

 Eric Nordmark spent more than eight months in an Orange County jail as an accused child molester. With his trial under way last month, Nordmark made plans to kill himself if convicted by smuggling a razor blade into his cell.

"My mind was made up," Nordmark later told the Los Angeles Times.

But two days into the trial, one of the girls admitted that their story was a lie concocted as an excuse for getting home late from school.

Nordmark, a 36-year-old homeless man who drifted from job to job, was set free after 251 days in jail.

The three 11-year-old girls told police this story: They were walking through a park on their way home from school when they were attacked by a man who threw one of them to the ground and began to tear off her blouse.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/23/national/main601627.shtml

[Loonman]

1. Try 'em for filing a false police report

Throw the book at 'em.

[seemslikeadream]

3. The police did go to the elementary school to arrest them.

I guess to try and cover up the blame they should be taking for not investigating the allegations throughly from the start.

[AndyP]

2. That's sad

Wasn't there any proof other than their story?? I wonder how much something similar to this happens. Lock them up and see how those little snotty brats like it.

[MajorFlaw]

6. Have you not read . . .

about the Scottsboro Boys? Their denials were ignored simply because of their "suntans".

[AndyP]

17. no

I've never heard of them... elaberate? Either way our system may be messed up but it's the best we got for now.

[MajorFlaw]

18. I hope this helps . . .

I assume you mean elaborate. Hope this helps, but, if not, there's always google.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/scottsboro/scottsb.htm

[jbm]

39. Thanks for the link...

I was also unfamiliar with the case. Towards the end of the article I stumbled across this sentence:

<snip>
Evil rarely comes in the form of monsters, but rather in the form of relatively normal people who, for reasons of careers, ideology, or a desire for society's approval, are indifferent to the human consequences of their actions.
<snip>

It strikes me as being a very true statement.

[AndyP]

50. Thanks

That's a sad story. It just amazes me that stuff like this even happens.

[private_ryan]

19. you don't need no proof

in rape and child molestation cases. If the kid or a woman said you did, you did it. Welcome to USA!

[gula]

27. Not just the USA

This is an even more horrific case: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/scandal/index.html

[Fridays Child]

4. The man's name changed from Nordmark to Nordham about...

...half way through the article. I wonder which name is correct.

[Sticky]

5. I saw him on the news

He was a pitiful creature. He wasn't angry with the girls and only asked they apologise to his mother for upsetting her so much.

Sad. Sad. Sad. I got the feeling he was quite happy to have a roof over his head and 3 sqaures a day.

[mitchtv]

25. yeah, that's why he was planning suicide

I hope he sues the shit out of somebodys' parents

[mitchtv]

26. yeah, that's why he was planning suicide

I hope he sues the shit out of somebodys' parents

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pacifictiger]

7. wasn't it

lying little girls that started the salem witch hunts too?

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. This could happen to ANYBODY

This is the basic problem of living in a police state where all of your freedoms are traded of for "security". Anyone can be falsely accused and have their life ruined instantly.

I am ending my long time involvement with the Boy Scouts because of deep worry that some weird kid will someday accuse me of doing something to them as a "joke" on me or as some kind of "payback". It would ruin my whole life before it ever got sorted out.

[oneighty]

12. You got it!

We are living in those times we were warned about back in WW2 and a while before. Moral of this story for men and women: Take care in your dealings with underage boys and girls. Never be alone with them.

These are sad times.

180

[Beaker]

44. I refuse to be alone with children for just that reason-

my wife and I were never interested in having kids, and I get very uncomfortable if i'm put in a position of being alone with them, and try to avoid it.

[private_ryan]

68. <insert standard DU talking points>you must a rapist or plan to rape

but you definitely must hate women. False accusations don't happen. </end talking points>

[Dogmudgeon]

9. Fear of punishment

The story reported that the girls were afraid of being punished.

Tawana Brawley had been credibly reported to have made up her story out of fear of being punished.

In a cause celebre in the early 1980s, convicted rapist Gary Dotson was eventually exonorated when his 16-year-old accuser, Cathleen Crowell, recanted her accusation. She said she had been afraid of punishment for having sex with her boyfriend. (This was usually reported as her being afraid of getting pregnant.)

It kind of makes you think of how we "discipline" our children, doesn't it?

--bkl
Spare the Rod and Spoil the Indictment.

[mobuto]

10. Why I oppose the death penalty

These things happen. At least if they're alive, you still have a chance at making amends. But when they're dead, they're dead.

[tom2kpro]

21. Good point!

That is the fundamental problem with the death penalty-- that we simply cannot trust the judicial system to get it right, and the stakes are way too high.

Of course, there is also the contrary point that a jury is more careful in a capital case than it would be when the punishment is less, for the reason you cite.

I just don't trust the courts to get every case right. 95 percent right is not good enough when your case could be in the 5 percent.

[Mechatanketra]

52. Possible Catch-22

Of course, there is also the contrary point that a jury is more careful in a capital case than it would be when the punishment is less, for the reason you cite.

A capital jury may well be more prone to mistakes rather than less, because objecting to capital punishment can get you taken out of the jury pool. The jury thus tends to be composed of people who undervalue the stakes involved, and/or have a natural inclination to believe 'the system' (which includes the police and prosecutors) to be infallible.

[dArKeR]

11. When Little Bastard Presidents Tell Big Lies Our Children Are Murdered In

IRAQ

[american_mutt]

13. Now when will

dumbaya aplogize for telling his big lies?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

14. There was an article in the WP recently

about a Roanoke, VA area man who was falsely accused of molestation. His accuser didn't step forward to exhonerate him quickly enough, unfortunately. The man jumped to his death from a bridge along the Blue Ridge Parkway.

It's cases like this that make me realize that we need to talk with our children about them openly...so they feel comfortable talking with parents if they are molested, yet understand that falsely accusing someone is every bit as bad.

[MountainLaurel]

40. Not molestation

Regular old physical assault: hitting the kid. But nonetheless a horrific situation.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

51. Thanks for the correction...

Sad for the man's family...

[Lindacooks]

15. I hate that this gets so much publicity.

Because it hurts the truly abused.

Remember, only 2% of all reported abuse cases are false, the same as any other crime. 98% of the reported abuse cases are true. And reported cases are a very small percentage of actual cases.

http://incestabuse.about.com/b/a/045270.htm

[private_ryan]

20. so true

since it's only 2%, why do even worry? Let's let them rot in jail anyway and hope it's none of us.

[tom2kpro]

22. Well put!

[Lindacooks]

38. I don't want to see anyone falsely accused

and I certainly don't want to see anyone falsely imprisoned.

My problem with all of this is that most people think that the number of false abuse reports is much higher than it actually is. This means that people who HAVE been abused face more skepticism and criticism than they should.

Just keep in mind that false reports are the vast minority, and always work to find the truth.

[private_ryan]

48. take it up with the people who falsely accused then.

anyone over 18 who falsely accuses another one of rape or molestation should be sentenced to death or life with no parole IMO!

The cops should give them a few hours to change their mind and after that you face life if you lied. Seems very fair, considering what the accused, and future rape victims will go through becuase of her /his lies. You have to remember that on these cases, you really can't defend yourself. A lot of relevant stuff is left our because of rape shield laws.

Just last month we read about this black kid serving 10 years because a white girl was afraid of her parents.

[Lindacooks]

60. What are you talking about?

Rape shield laws are very weak and, like in Kobe Bryant's case, have been totally trashed by the defense. What is 'relevant' about a rape victim's past sexual history? Rape shield laws were put in place because rape victims were literally tortured in our 'justice' system.

Here's something to ask yourself: shat's the difference between rape and torture? Torture victims aren't asked if they enjoyed themselves.

And sentences for convicted rapists are unbelievably short. Martha Stewart, for instance, is going to serve more time than a rapist if she's convicted of her 'crime'.

You should take a good look at your attitude toward victims. It seems pretty scary to me. Why are you so bitter?

[private_ryan]

62. apparently you don't know what I'm talking about

you attitude is not scary at all. God bless you!

[Mountainman]

23. Pray no one accuses you of molestation.

If it happens should no one come to your defense? After all you are only part of that 2%.

[Loonman]

24. No empathy for the falsely accused?

Wow.

I hope nobody you know ever gets falsely accused.

[Blue-Jay]

31. Back up a minute.

Exactly HOW does reporting the effects of a false report "hurt the truly abused"?

H.U.A.

[lolly]

34. "Crying Wolf" syndrome.

False reports eventually hurt everyone.

After a few cases like this, it's not inconceivable that investigators would start disbelieving or downplaying all abuse cases.

It really wasn't that long ago when the pendulum was in the other direction. Rape victims were grilled on the witness stand as if they were guilty; psychologists "knew," after reading Freud, that children were never really molested, that all such stories were in the children's fantasies.

Anyway,
What kind of moral system do we have, where girls are more afraid of the consequences of coming home late than they are of accusing someone of a crime?

[MisterP]

35. I think Lindacooks meant the girls' lies

[Democat]

33. Our system is supposed to be based on letting the guilty go free over...

Putting the innocent in jail.

[private_ryan]

37. but it's for the kids

and women. Did you notice the * next to the 5th ammendement?

[Solly Mack]

36. It's not just the publicity that hurts actual victims-it's those who make

false accusations that harm actual victims as well. Yes, it should be pointed out that the number of false accusations are relatively low...but even relatively low is still too high when it comes to the innocent going to prison ,or even to their death, because of lies, and abuse of the system, by others.

The girls are to blame for the repercussions of their actions. For their lie added to the problems actual victims face..

Those girls made it harder for those who have actually been raped/attacked.

[tobius]

47. that's why blaming the police is outrageous.

I read that one of the Mother's was suing the police because they listened to the girls.

[chiburb]

16. I don't get it dArKeR...

Here you post a story about a man found innocent of child molestation after THREE alleged vics put him in jail. That is a GOOD thing, that they finally fessed up and he was exonerated...

But in this thread (see below) you've got half of DU ready to string up Ted Nugent for the SAME CRIME based on nothing more than what you think you saw on some tv show...

I honestly don't get it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1149492&mesg_id=1149492

[jamesinca]

28. The only thing I can think to say in his defense

Ted Nugent is an idiot and probably deserves it for something he did, even if we don't know what that is yet. Maybe the racist remark on the CO. radio station some time back about a year ago. You know the one that got a concert of his canceled. Maybe he deserves it for being the sexual predator he is. He has talked of all the women that he has been with and how it just about destroyed his life. Well guess what, he was taking advantage of a vulnerability, that makes him a predator. Maybe not a violent one, just one that takes advantage of somebody's weakness. I learned about those types when I was doing my psychiatric rotations in school. He is like a piranha in a fish tank of guppies.

That is all I can think to say in dArKeR's defense. Oh, did I say Ted Nugent is an idiot?

[private_ryan]

29. taking "advantage of somebody's weakness"

if they're over 18 (or whatever the law is in his state) and agreed to have sex, weakness is just BS. Are you supposed to ask them if they feel weak or vulnerable, and then have sex?

on edit: because he used a racial slur or because he's an idiot he must be a child molester, right? God help us all.

[tom2kpro]

46. For some people, uttering a racial slur is as bad or rape or murder

Because evil thoughts can lead to evil deeds.

I am from the old school, where we punish as crimes bad deeds, not bad thoughts or even insensitive statements.

This sort of thinking that, "Oh he is a bad man, an idiot, a racist, so he deserves to be convicted of anything he is charged with. Good riddance" is just as bad as the sloppy police departments who feel no shame in pinning a serious crime on someone with a long police record, even if they are pretty sure he did not do this crime.

[jamesinca]

61. This is two consenting adults your talking of

I am talking of dealing with things like Erickson's developmental stages and psychiatric problems that lead to a behavior of sexual indiscretion. I am talking of people that have a void created from their childhood and are trying to fill it through meaningless sex. A pattern of self destructive behavior. A state of impaired social interaction. Verbal manipulation of others to get sex. This is how I am framing Ted Nugent as a sexual predator. These people do not feel weak or vulnerable, they usually don't know they have a problem. Usually they think they are fixing what is wrong in their life by having meaningless sex, one night stands etc.... Ted Nugent is the type that is there to lend his penis to their self esteem problem.

I am not making the assumption that idiots or racial slurs make a child molester.

I do not know what dArKeR's comments were about Ted Nugent but I gather that it had to do with not giving him the benefit of the law. Once that happens, he needs to be sent off to a psychiatrist.

[chiburb]

30. Yep. Nugent IS an idiot who deserves whatever...

Is "Karmically" due him. As for responding "in his defense"...

I didn't attack him, no defense needed. I DID ask why the disconnect between his 2 posts. One (this one) points out the dangers of false accusations, the other makes one. (Or has so far... there has been no evidence given besides what he "heard".)

Just because Nugent is an idiot is NO reason to tar him with this brush...

[lazarus]

43. it could be

Because Nugent admitted what he did in the other thread? Maybe?

[chiburb]

55. Sorry Laz, I don't see it...

I wish I did (Nugent IS a whack-job!), but nowhere in that thread is a quote, admission, attribution, corroboration, anything that substantiates the "charge". That's my problem with that thread, that everyone is piling on based on nothing credible. Can I start a thread called "John Lennon molested children" and give no link or even an alleged victim?

[lazarus]

59. Then someone in that thread

Needs to ask for proof, or a link, or something. Not in this thread.

:D

[HootieMcBoob]

32. This could be the title of "The Condi Rice Story" n/t

n/t

[sandboxface]

41. Execute them on TV!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=380584&mesg_id=380584

[CBHagman]

42. A teacher in Virginia recently killed himself over a false accusation.

The sad thing is that the authorities had already figured out he was completely innocent. This poor man had been accused of physically assaulting a handicapped student, who had fabricated the story. The teacher thought he would never regain his reputation and took his own life.

On the flip side, there are people (coaches, priests, et al) who move from job to job and collect victims. We've all heard of those cases, too.

But the important thing is to remember that one is innocent until proven guilty, and NO ONE should "lead" a child in testimony. There have been horrific cases regarding alleged child abuse.

Unfortunately, the same can be true in divorce and separation cases. I've heard of tit-for-tat accusations, as well as victims dying due to their pleas being ignored.

It's a grim, complicated area.

[tom2kpro]

45. Yes. It is a complicated area, and not one for biases any way

We should never err on the side of the accuser or the accused. We should assess each case separately, and carefully. And this goes for child custody, too.

[roscoeroscoe]

49. too true

well, it happened to me. my ex wife came up with crazy accusations after leaving me for another guy. absolutely untrue, but after shopping around she found social workers and counselors who supported her...
haven't seen my kids in 8 years. had to just let it go, so the kids could have some chance at peace.
my reading seemed to show about 40% of accusations in custody situations are false. it's the 'nuclear weapon' of divorce and custody.

[DemBones DemBones]

54. Cases like this one made me glad to get out of teaching.

And I'm a woman, but you never know what some kid will say. It made me afraid to pat a kid on the back or shoulder. A dozen years ago, I saw two men I'd taught with in a high school driven out of teaching, accused of improper conduct with students. I have serious doubts about their guilt, and serious concerns about how easy it is for students to ruin someone's life with a false accusation. I know of one case in the state in which the students involved eventually admitted their story of abuse was a lie, as happened in the case reported here.

For that matter, I've seen men and women run out of faculty positions at two colleges where I taught, all through the schemes of one sociopath (chronologically an adult and a full professor at one of the colleges.) He engineered the entire thing to advance his own career and used alleged sexual improprieties to get two faculty members fired and one forced into early retirement. The way he himself told the stories of those "bad" faculty and his role in getting them fired was very revealing. There was no proof of anything.

Y'all be careful out there, there ARE some people who lie and deceive as a way of life.

[Red State Rebel]

56. I have a dear friend who has been going thru a false accusation

He is a high school band teacher that I have worked with for 8 years on an almost daily basis. The girl, a former student who was a freshman at college, was being pressured about sex by her boyfriend. First she told him she couldn't because she had ovarian cancer - when that excuse didn't pan out, she told him she had been raped. He called her mom and made her tell. When she said to her mom she had been raped her mom's first words were "was it Mr. ????" and she said yes. Mind you this mom and the teacher had a disagreement at the beginning of this girls senior year and she absolutely hated him.

When the accusation was made to the police they questioned a lot of his former female students - not one of them said he ever made any untoward remarks or advances to them. He offered to take a polygraph and she refused. It took her 2 months to come home from school 2 hours away for a face to face interview with the police and when she did, her story was so bogus!

Fortunately, the police pretty much saw thru the ruse and never went further with the case. It would have destroyed his life and his career. As it is, it cost him a fortune for a good attorney and has pretty much cost him his desire to teach, not to mention his reputation in the community.

The kicker to this all is that this girl is going to school to be a music teacher just like the teacher she ruined.

[Heyo]

57. I don't meand to sound harsh...

well actually, YES, I DO mean to sound harsh...

I think the girls should do the same amount of time this poor homeless man did for no reason...

snot nose little brats!!!

Heyo

[KansDem]

58. 251 days? That's nothin'...

Ray did 5 years...

The McMartin School case:

In the end, 360 children were diagnosed at CII as having been abused at the McMartin preschool. It was the longest and most expensive legal proceeding in American history. Ray, with no evidence against him, remained in jail five years before he was finally released on bail. After seven years from the first accusations and endless heartache to the defendants, no one was convicted. It had cost the community almost $16 million and had cost many parents their peace of mind.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/mcmartin_daycare/1.html?sect=19

[Florida_Geek]

63. Jeb and friends has

kept this man from seeing his daughter for over 6 years. OH yes she was sexually abused at a foster home.



http://www.extralove.com/ash_danger_abuse.html

[gauguin57]

64. just as an aside ...

... I highly recommend the documentary film "Capturing the Friedmans," now available on DVD. And definitely rent the DVD (rather than VHS) because of all the bonus material about the 1980s molestation case against Arnold and Jesse Friedman of Great Neck, L.I.

While a movie about family, the nature of memory, the nature of truth and how various events can haunt families for generations, it's also about how an hysterical community plus the media plus questionable police tactics can make it so much harder to get at the truth in cases of molestation.

One of the best films of the year. You won't stop thinking about it for days.

[mizzemm]

65. Linda cooks, thank you

For being the only voice of reason on this board. Attention to cases like this one serves only to distract the public from the realities of sexual abuse. And the reality is that children are almost NEVER lying in such cases. I put the onus for this particular case on the police department, who undoubtedly made assumptions about the accused man because he was homeless. These are 11-year old girls who lied for fear of getting in trouble...pretty standard 11-year old behavior, don't you think? At that age it is almost impossible to understand the enormity and impact such a lie could have on another human being. People here have suggested everything from KILLING these girls to locking them up for life. It's absolutely sickening.

And here is my one MAJOR, MAJOR gripe about this whole forum - why is it titled "When little GIRLS tell big lies?" I suppose every little boy who accuses someone of sexual abuse is telling the truth because....why? Girls are more prone to lying than boys I suppose? There is some serious misogyny and delusional logic at play in this thread. What about the FAR MORE COMMON trend of victims being blamed while rapists and sexual abusers going free? Let's talk about that and get back to reality.

[chiburb]

66. And here is my one MAJOR, MAJOR gripe about this whole forum

1st, welcome to DU...

2nd, it's titled "When Little Girls Lie" because that's the title of the article! You see, that is a rule of this particular forum; that you can't just make up a headline.

3rd, the thread was posted to discuss the article. Yes, it drifted off... that happens some times. If you want to discuss "There is some serious misogyny and delusional logic at play in this thread. What about the FAR MORE COMMON trend of victims being blamed while rapists and sexual abusers going free? Let's talk about that and get back to reality.", then feel free to start that subject in either GD or the Meeting Room. You'll find many folks eager to argue with you.

[Ripley]

67. I agree.

Welcome to the "progressive" DU. Be forewarned that if you comment that there is misogyny in this forum, you will be taunted with "oh come come now, I've never seen ANYTHING like that." However, those type of posts are usually quite obvious in the very thread one comments upon.

I find it pretty alarming that some men want these girls to be given the death penalty or life in prison for well, acting like the "boy who cried wolf." Some people protest a little too much.