MT Gov Martz: Commandments on public property free speech

[Ediacara]

Martz: Commandments on public property free speech

Associated Press

HELENA - Gov. Judy Martz on Friday defended the placement of Ten Commandments monuments on government property, saying those troubled by such displays "have something going inside of them that would need a little help anyway."

Martz's comments came in response to a question about a controversy over a Ten Commandments display in front of the Flathead County Courthouse in Kalispell.

Opponents have said it violates the line between church and state and have threatened legal action if the display is not removed.

Martz said such displays should have the same First Amendment protection as free speech.

Citing her own religious beliefs, she said the stone displaying the Ten Commandments on the east side of the Capitol should not be removed if its location is ever challenged.

More at the Billings Gazette

[aquart]

1. My, she's a prize. Republican?

[Ediacara]

4. Yes a Republican

and probably the most unpopular governor in the country (approval ratings around 16-18%). She's not running for re-election this year, so she has a looser mouth than usual. She has said some real gems like, "My husband has never beat me, but then again, I never gave him a reason to."

[barbaraann]

2. Maybe it's time to start asking

Why not the Sermon on the Mount instead of the Ten Commandments?

"The major teaching event in the ministry of Jesus was the Sermon on the Mount. According to the scriptures, this was the largest gathering that Jesus addressed during His ministry. Given this opportunity, He did not bring people out of the audience and cure their illnesses; He did not ask for donations; He did not ask the people to worship Him; He did not say that He was going to die for their sins. What He did do, was to teach the following lesson:

Matt 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.

Matt 5:5

Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

Matt 5:6

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.

Matt 5:7

Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.

Matt 5:8

Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.

Matt 5:9

Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

Matt 5:10

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.

Matt 5:5

Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

Matt 5:6

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.

Matt 5:7

Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.

Matt 5:8

Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.

Matt 5:9

Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

Matt 5:10

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Be righteous, be meek, be pure of heart, be a peacemaker, be merciful; when given the chance to instruct a great number of people, this is what Jesus felt to be important. Should it not be expected that all people who wish to follow Jesus, should also agree with Him that these ideas are the most important part of the religion of Jesus?..."

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/sermon.htm


On edit: I have no idea how those emoticons got in there!

[mediaman007]

3. This is brilliant...

It certainly professes the Christianity that I believe in...

After all, the Republicans don't own Christ! All the better to answer the 10 commandments with Christ's own words.

It describes the differences between the parties. The 10 Commandments are punitive, while the Sermon is optimistic and hopeful.

[AZCat]

5. Sometimes the Republican Philosophy reminds me of Legalism

Legalism was a hot idea in China around 300 BC(?). It basically claimed that you could create optimal behavior by legislating morality- and it was a BIG failure. The Republicans want to use the law in a similar manner- to force all of us to behave as they do- instead of using it as a punitive tool for extreme behavior.

I had a friend that argued that instead of focusing on legal ramifications for behavior, we should be more worried about the 'moral obligations' we have as citizens of a democracy. Too many times a focus on legality allows people like the Bush Administration to slip by on a technicality, as seen in their claim that Bush never used the word "imminent" in his descriptions of the threat from Iraq.

It seems to make sense to me, at least.

[DemoVet]

16. Legalism was big with the Pharisees, too,

the very people that Jesus opposed...you know, like Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, Hagee, et al. Maybe that's why Jesus hasn't returned yet, he doesn't want to be crucified again.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

6. Interesting. Wrathful smiting vs. tolerant nurturing. Parenting models.

Linguist George Lakoff has been making the case that the way that WORDS FRAME an issue sets up the listener to react to their own FAMILY ISSUES, that primal (literally) shaping environment that determines our 'world view' of how Life works and ought to work, the stuff of POLITICS.

Lakoff says that Repubs and Dems are selling different 'traditional gender qualities as policies:
Repubs-'Strong Father', strict, punishing, violent. 10 Commandments.
Dems-'Soft Mother', caring, tolerant, peaceful. Sermon on the Mount.

In an atmosphere of fear, the Repub model sells better.
This is very simplistic but a good thumbnail sketch of the parallels.

In another thread about inventing a progressive and humane 'authority' structure for the future, I offered this blending of evolution science, psychology, and theology:


The physical reality of living in a body and in a brain seems to be the boat that we humans are literally all in.

This idea has been held at intellectual arm's length by many people who want to believe that humans are different from other animals in some way that elevates them to a status of god-like nobility. Many have argued that the theory of evolution threatens a moral society because emphasis on our mind's physical shell emphasizes 'worldliness over spirituality.'

But what if there is spirituality in worldliness? That is, what if the physical stuff we're made of is good stuff?
Now that brain scans have revealed that there is an innate empathy for other humans, Darwinism and evolution doesn't look as savage as some feared. ('Survival of the Fittest' doesn't warm many hearts. It is the stuff of Hitler, Eugenics and the Dominionist Bush maladministration.)

I have noticed the similarities in psychology and theology of humans deep-seated need to believe in god-like (powerful yet loving) parents, planets, deities, and Universe. I've decided that there is an innate emotion tied to survival of our species that might be called the 'Optimism Imperative.' It is a physical part of who we are.

That is, in order to survive first our parents (males are frequently quite abusive and violent) and then a hostile planet full of predators, bad weather, and food that runs away from us, we need to believe that our perceived source environment, be it family, jungle, or cosmos, actually WANTS US TO SURVIVE. This infuses a struggling human with the emotions of HOPE, FAITH, AND OPTOMISM which give us the motivation we need to leave the cave and look for food or sex, the building blocks for long-term survival of our species.

The societal construct that institutionalizes the OPTIMISM IMPERATIVE for strong and weak alike is called CIVILIZED JUSTICE, something the liberal Democrats have been legislating for decades in favor of the weak while Republicans have been resisting in favor of the strong.

How's that for EVOLUTION SCIENCE VALIDATING SOCIAL JUSTICE as the Democrat's policies?

[barbaraann]

10. A good bumpersticker might be:

GOP: Hatred, Anger, Fear
Dems: Love, Joy, Hope

[barbaraann]

8. Thank you. I don't understand why no Christian leaders have

thought of it. It seems so obvious to me...

[Judi Lynn]

7. Nice touch! Actually, there's a remedy for that.

Right under the message box, there's a small box near the left corner, which says "Check if you DO NOT wish to use emotion icons in your message."

They can jump out when you least expect it! :hi:

Oh, by the way, it would be WONDERFUL hearing any of these Xtians even had READ the Beatitudes, f'r chrissakes.

[barbaraann]

9. Aha! Thanks for the info.

And I'd like to see Mel Gibson's next film be "The Sermon on the Mount." (not holding my breath)

[Democat]

11. How about a big monument to the Koran?

Will the right wingers fight for the right to have the Koran on public property as well?

[havocmom]

12. Lots of Norwegians in Montana

Maybe a huge monument to Oden would be in order.

And we should definately let Native Americans put up monuments to their spiritual beliefs.

How bout letting satanists exercise their free speech with a monument to their beliefs on state property?

Best thing one can say about Martz is she will be outta the governor's mansion soon.

[yorgatron]

13. can i install a golden calf

next to those commandments? :mad: that's what i thought...

[barbaraann]

15. Some people say Santa Claus is the God of Consumerism.

If we put up Santa Claus monuments we wouldn't have to take down the Christmas decorations every year!

[Neecy]

14. uh-huh

...and I think that these frenzied bible-thumpers "have something going inside of them that would need a little help anyway."

We're going to see more and more of this. Bush has emboldened the fundamentalists and evangelicals to unleash their nonstop thumping on the rest of us.