German Jews condemn slaying of pregnant Muslim woman

[Douglas Carpenter]

Source: Haaretz

Jews in Germany joined their Muslim compatriots Monday in condemning the horrifying murder of a pregnant Muslim woman in a Dresden courthouse last week.

The secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, Stephan Kramer, said he was appalled by the attack.

"All those people who have in the past belittled our concern about a phobia against Islam in Germany are seeing after this awful act how wrong they were," he said, adding that the German neo-Nazis had been rousing up a climate of xenophobia in Germany for years.

Aiman Mazyek, secretary of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, said such violence was no wonder when Islam was constantly mentioned in the same breath as extremism and terrorism, but he warned against revenge.

snip:"Marwa al-Shirbini, 31, who regularly wore a scarf, was stabbed 18 times by a German man of Russian descent as she was about to give evidence against him in a civil suit between them in Dresden."


Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098207.html

[Eric J in MN]

1. Lousy security. No metal detector for that courtroom. NT

NT

[midnight]

2. I don't know how no one is able to stop a man who

is stabbing this women multiple times?

[one_true_leroy]

3. With absolutely no sarcasm...

If the judge was not willing to place himself or herself between the defendant and plaintiff, then he or she should be stripped of the duty and held responsible for the murder. Period. That judge allowed a woman to be stabbed EIGHTEEN times. Allowed it. For all I know, cheered it. There is no excuse for that extreme violence to happen in a court, and I hold the judge morally responsible.

[WriteDown]

16. Do an experiment....

Ball your hand into a fist and bring your body against theirs...now make quick stabbing motions. How long does it take you? Maybe 5 seconds if you're slow? This likely happened so fast that no one had time to act let alone the judge.

[Gwendolyn]

18. Duh! The one person who's separated from everyone behind a big, possibly elevated desk...

...is probably middle-aged to old-aged grizzled, is expected to fling off his robes and leap superman-like into the fray to single-handedly stop a bloody murder occurring in fast motion. :eyes:

[one_true_leroy]

21. Yes, precisely.

Admittedly, your scenario makes it seem absurd at face value, but consider that this was a case of a woman testifying against a man who had assaulted her physically and with racial/xenophobic intent. The very notion of a court is to put aside weapons, fists, and whatnot to submit to reasoned judgement. A court can only perform its duty as arbiter of justice if it can and will vouchsafe the physical security of all parties at all times. If one sits in the stand, fearful of being assaulted, how can one honestly testify? It is imperative that the court operators (judge and bailiff) maintain security if the court is to be truly an institution for justice.

In response to the post before you about the mechanics of stabbing, the assailant would have had to approach the stand from the defendant's table. (In fairness of argument, I admit that I've made the assumption that German courts are similar to American courts in physical setup and that the defendant was not acting as his lawyer, ie, that he was not in a role where he himself would be actively questioning her on the stand.) At the very moment the man approached the stand, the bailiff should have began to intervene. There is no "wait and see what happens" response to this scenario. It was a racially charged case, with an assault of a man against a woman, and that alone should have warranted at least heightened security and awareness. While I agree that it is nearly impossible to stop a stabbing, even a few stabbings, we're talking about EIGHTEEN stabbings. Try your experiment with that number, and then extrapolate to encompass the fact that he also stabbed her husband, who himself was shot by the bailiff. Think about it... the husband had time to respond, intervene, and get stabbed and shot, but the bailiff and judge (both presumably physically closer to the woman than her husband) could not?! I refuse to accept that. No, they were complicit, if only through cowardice and dereliction of their sacrosanct duty.

You can argue that it's a "middle-aged to old-aged grizzled" judge, and while there is merit to this, if the judge and bailiff cannot perform their duty, with the understanding of the blind faith that the people in that courtroom have in their protection, they can find a job teaching law and writing traffic tickets, respectively. I reiterate: if they were not willing to intervene... even at great risk to themselves... they have neglected their duty, and, it's simply MY opinion, in this case that neglect was criminal, reprehensible, and cowardly to an extreme.

[Gwendolyn]

23. Sorry, but your post holds no water. It's obvious as well...

that you've never found yourself in a violent situation, where split-second response is curtailed by immobilizing shock and fear. You can argue with merit that security was lacking but that's about it. It's quite simple for a young, agile, strong individual to quickly lunge at someone only feet away and get a good number of stabs in before anyone can even grasp what's going on. The case in question was an appeal, and not a criminal case. The argument was over a fine that amounted to around $1,000.00. That court probably oversees dozens of Judge Judy themed cases a day in addition to more serious ones like this one. The expectation of violence is extremely low, but now they've obviously learned their lesson in that it does occur.

It is never incumbent upon any unarmed individual to intervene in a life-threatening situation. Ever. It's wonderful when quick-thinking heros save the day, but it's hit and miss that such people will be around when violence or tragedy strikes.

That being said, whenever melee breaks out in a courtroom, the judge is removed immediately. For all the very reasons that you state. The courtroom is supposedly the cul-de-sac of justice. It goes no further or higher than the room within it's meted out. Therefore, the final arbiter of said justice, the presiding judge, is protected at all costs. As it should be. Otherwise, the first target for violence would become the judges.

The idea that a judge should also be a hand-to-hand combat expert is, quite frankly, nonsense. They come to hold their positions as a result of brain power, not brawn. Seriously, just think about what you've posted. If scraping and other bouncer-type abilities were required for the job, I'd hate to see the caliber of judges we'd end up with. It would definitely exclude most women and many men under 200 lbs. If that's the case, then we should simply put police officers on the bench and be done with it.

[one_true_leroy]

26. Not quite so obvious as you think...

Truth is, I have been in several violent situations. I was a medic in my 20s, and became very adept at handling the Friday and Saturday night calls (heavily stacked towards various drug/alcohol/fight combinations). While there is no duty to act in the situation where a fight is in progress (that's the realm of the police), once a patient was in my care, I took my duty as patient advocate very seriously, and more than once intervened physically to prevent a 'score-settling' attack. Granted, I'm a 6'3" 220# martial artist and have trained since I was eight, so I do have a mental conditioning as my advantage, but I saw the same tenacity from other medics, even the most petite. Admittedly, my personal history colors my response to this tragedy. I do understand the bulk of your argument, and I'll admit that perhaps I am too harsh a critic of the judge. I'm not usually one to criticize those affected by the "bystander syndrome." I've seen it too often to be unaware of it. In a collection of strangers, you'll be lucky to find one who calls for help in these situations, and you'll almost never find one to intervene or assist, at least not while an assault is in progress. I accept that this is a fact of life and that many people are indeed immobilized with shock and fear.

But, to counter your argument that "It is never incumbent upon any unarmed individual to intervene in a life-threatening situation. Ever," the bailiff was armed, and in fact shot the husband. It is exactly his duty to intervene. That is what his very presence is for. As you stated, the Judge Judy aspect of the mundane may lead to a false sense of tranquility, but that does not excuse the bailiff.

Thanks for your time and argument. If anyone wants to keep score, you've got me to (mostly) exonerate the judge, but the bailiff is still on the grill.

[Gwendolyn]

27. I agree with you about the bailiff. He was possibly snoozing on the job.

Lol, you're looking at the situation from the perspective of a 6'3" big guy, and I'm looking at it from the POV of a much teenier woman. :)

I've been in a violent situation too, and remember the initial paralysis of shock and fear very well. Was just putting myself in the shoes of frightened, possibly paunchy, unathletic lawyers and a potentially elderly, and/or female judge.

Don't know what was up with the bailiff, except that perhaps, as you say, the usually mundane agenda of the day caused him to slack off and think about lunch instead of doing his job. But then again, knife brawls are messy, the attacker was obviously enraged and therefore probably fueled with extra strength, so we can't really say why he missed his shot, or couldn't get the attacker off the woman. I understand that it often takes several people to control someone who's become that violent with rage.

Edited to add, thanks for your argument too. I get better where you were coming from. And now, off to lunch.

[one_true_leroy]

30. It's not always easy to step outside of our heads.

Perspective is too easily clouded by experience. I volunteer to help teach a women's personal safety and self-defense course in conjunction with the local battered women's shelter, and I have to constantly remind myself that the techniques which are as natural as breathing to me and as familiar as my own skin, are not so to everyone else, and may be particularly distressing for an abuse survivor (not all of the participants are... the classes are open to any women). Having worked in this capacity predisposes me to a very visceral reaction to violence against women and children, and it is difficult for me to not feel disgust when these situations are handled poorly.

Have a nice lunch! :hi:

[JI7]

5. where did it happen?

and of course there is one of the worst possiblities which is that nobody wanted to help her.

[Lena inRI]

10. Kitty Genovese syndrome comes to mind. . .

. . .or

diffusion of responsibility.

But I agree with poster #3 that, in this controlled court of law, the judge is criminally liable.

This judge has so assumed his/her control of the court would be enforced by bailiffs that he/she forgot to stay actively responsible. . .resting on his/her lazy ass.

Print the name of this judge. . .get him/her tried, disbarred, and publicly reprimanded.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

[earcandle]

4. Did they stand around and watch?

[JI7]

6. i read more and it's worse than i thought, her husband was shot as he came to help her

the security guard shot the husband who was trying to help his wife. he was also stabbed by the same guy who killed his wife.

[Blue_Tires]

25. that's what makes it really tragic...

[Behind the Aegis]

7. A tragedy all around.

Xenophobia manifests itself in various guises. Of course, Islamaphobia and anti-Arab racism is big in Germany and a few other countries in that region. This is nothing more than a disgusting act of pure hate.

[harun]

17. Finally something we can agree on.

Peace.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. I will second that - Peace

[Fumesucker]

19. Good thing we don't have any Islamophobia in the USA..

Would the Uighurs still be imprisoned if they were Christian, or Jewish?

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/07/06/uighurs/index.html

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. some more details on the case

Daily Outrage: Pregnant Egyptian woman stabbed 18 times

http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/Daily-Outrage-Pregnant-Egyptian-woman-stabbed-18-times-50103802.html
Examiner Staff Writer
July 7, 2009

WHO: Marwa al-Sherbini, 32, of Egypt

WHAT: Al-Sherbini, four months pregnant, was in Dresden, Germany, because of her husband’s research fellowship. She had taken her neighbor, Alex W., 28, to court for repeatedly calling her a terrorist and trying to pull off her headscarf. Inside the courtroom she was to testify against the recent Russian immigrant when he stabbed her 18 times in front of her 3-year-old son.

WHAT HAPPENED: Al-Sherbini’s husband came to her aid and is now hospitalized in critical condition. He was also stabbed by the neighbor in addition to being shot in the leg by a security guard who thought he must be the attacker.

WHAT’S BEING DONE: The killing has been Egypt’s top news story for days, enflaming national anger because of the comparatively little press and political outrage in Germany and Europe. Thousands of Egyptian mourners marched behind al-Sherbini’s coffin Monday during the funeral in her Mediterranean hometown of Alexandria.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/Daily-Outrage-Pregnant-Egyptian-woman-stabbed-18-times-50103802.html

[HarvardMed]

9. Haven't heard of that incident till now

extremely shocking and disturbing

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hatalles]

12. I'm sure that's the kind of thinking that drove this chicken-little hate mongering murderer.

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. EXACTLY!!

[LeftishBrit]

13. Europaean immigrants are not 'overwhelmingly Muslim'

In the UK, about 14% of the population are of foreign descent of some sort; the proportion of Muslims in the population is under 3%. In Germany, about 19% of the population are of some sort of foreign descent; about 4% of the German population is Muslim. Moroever, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Germany are of Turkish origin, and Turkey is not exactly a theocracy (e.g. wearing the burqa in public is officially disapproved there, though some women wear it anyway).

And such things as decriminalized pot and prostitution in the Netherlands are hardly part of the 'historical patrimony'; they are of recent origin, and more at risk from the Traditional Values voters who are numerous in Europe if less so than in America, than from the relatively small numbers of Muslims.

The term 'Eurabia' comes from right-wingers who are just as against legal pot, etc. as Muslim fundies are. They include some specific Islamophobes: some Europeaeans who dislike all immigrants (e.g. Melanie Phillips); and some Americans who dislike all or most Europaeans - and sometimes seem to attack us for being secular and Islam-influenced in the same breath! Apart from anything else, the term is highly misleading as most Muslims in Europe are not Arabs.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. thank you for that!

[Flaneur]

28. As for Amsterdam...

The religious zealots are alredy trying to undo the liberal reforms there, trying to shut down the coffee shop, trying to end regulated prostitution. But you can't blame the Muslims. It's the Christian Democrats and their churchy allies doing it.

[dugaresa]

29. I have European friends who consider themselves "liberal" by our standards

but who are very anti-immigration. These folks are specifically from the Netherlands and Germany.

[LeftishBrit]

14. Utterly horrible.

[zbdent]

15. any evidence of cheering from Repugs?

I guess that they'd keep quiet, because a fetus was killed in the attack ... but it was a "muslin" fetus, so they'd be conflicted ...

[fascisthunter]

22. neo-nazis in Germany are the same as the right wing here in the U.S.

the right wing needs to be dealt with on a global scale.

I'm glad to see both religious groups together in solidarity. This goes a long way to ease any tentions between the two. Hope...

[Gwendolyn]

24. The dude who did it was an immigrant himself.

[Egnever]

31. NM

posting before reading the whole article is baaad!