Campers' "Complexion" No Problem for New Pool

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: NBCPhiladelphia.com via MSNBC

By Vince Lattanzio
NBCPhiladelphia.com
updated 10 minutes ago

For kids in the summertime, there's nothing better than jumping full-speed into a pool to cool off. So when 65 kids from a Northeast Philadelphia camp were banned from taking a dip at a private swim club because of fears they would "change the complexion" and "atmosphere" of the club, they couldn't understand why.

<snip>

Then the swim club president John Duesler issued this statement: "There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club."

So the staff at Girard College, a private Philadelphia boarding school for children who live in low-income and single parent homes, stepped in and offered their pool.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31807548

---

This story has gone national (where many progressive talk hosts have even mentioned the story on their shows either last night or this morning) which woke Specter up and he wants to have an investigation.

It would behoove me to mention the irony of Girard College and its past history here in Philadelphia, where you have a school that essentially practiced the same sort of discrimination against blacks here in Philadelphia, prompting the well-known local civil rights activist Cecil B. Moore to lead many protests and marches against the school some 45 years ago. Oddly, none of the (local) reporting here has even mentioned the history (or irony). The M$M here are like deer in the headlights with this story - literally tip-toeing over their words.

An interesting summary about Cecil B. Moore (who has a major street named after him) and Girard College can be found here:

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/special/20081110_The_opening_of_Girard_College__Marches__rulings_and_the_unlearning_of_prejudice.html

[adamuu]

1. very interesting

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Some of the comments I read to justify this were disgusting.

WTF is wrong with people?

I am so glad this worked out for these kids.

[BumRushDaShow]

5. Agree

And now, they have been embraced by a facility that was itself desegregated during their parents' childhood and that in itself, is poignant.

[PSzymeczek]

111. Just goes to show

that enlightenment can happen.
:D

[Wizard777]

37. I think what is far more disgusting is people that wanted to sue to force the club to admit them.

So the CHILDREN can be exposed to the racist views and hateful treatment of the members. That's not a lesson a child should be forced to learn. No child should ever be intentionally exposed to hate. Especially to force a political point. You should never place politics ahead of a child's welfare. It best to leave the scum in their lil pockets where they are easily avoided. These are CHILDREN not irons to be placed in a fire.

[BumRushDaShow]

42. Why would you "protect" the children

from reality? That is actually more harmful because at least when they are exposed to it, the issue can be explained to them and they can be taught how this type of disgusting behavior does not involve "ALL". I.e., there are many types of people out there with many types of cultural backgrounds and life experiences and one would need to deal with people one on one.

Otherwise the "shock" and surprised reactions experienced by the children (cursorily touched on in the various superficial articles), could have become rage at being so insulated and "lied to" about "how things really are" (in their minds).

[ChazII]

46. Excellent answer! And I agree 100%.

My son is facially different and is now 24 years old. From birth and to today he knows what it is like to have other reject you for the way you look. It is best to teach the child how to handle the ignorant jerks out there. Your second paragraph contains much wisdom and insight.

Folks with neurofibromatosis type1 have been asked to leave pools. So I can empathize with the children in this story. It is sad that in 2009 people still discriminate.

[Wizard777]

61. We've never really over come discrimination we quite possibly never will.

Because once we protect a group from discrimination. Society finds another group of people to make it acceptable to discriminate against. Case in point is Drug Users. They can be denied housing and employment simply because they use drugs. That forces them to lie about their drug use or resort to crime to survive. But that just makes it easier for you to label them all liars and criminals. It's perfectly acceptable to deny them the right to be judged on their individual merit's. We judge them as a whole always using the worst amongst them to represent the whole group. A lot of this is the same things that used to be done to blacks. In talking about blacks. Murders and rapist were used as examples of typical blacks instead of people like Dr. King. As always it will be the death of society to give these discriminated against people equal rights and allow them to be successful in life. Be it blacks, gays, muslims or even drug users.

[northzax]

97. really? you just did that?

compared drug users (a voluntary activity) with being black? really?

and yes, addiction is a problem, however it is possible to stop being a regular user of drugs, I count among my friends ex-heroin users, ex-coke and crackheads, even ex-smokers. I have yet, however, to meet a single person who is no longer black. maybe you have?

[Wizard777]

108. Yes, it's a choice like being Catholic or Jewish or even Democrat

How quickly we forget Michael Jackson. I know too soon. But there were also Choices with people who were called "passing." They could chose to allow people to think they were white and be treated equally or they could expose their African american or mixed heritage and be discriminated against. Guess what most of them did?

As far as addiction goes. I accept Physical addiction. But not psychological addiction. That allows for psychological slavery by allowing others to control your brains rewards system. It like the Sultan of Brunei who was accused of enslaving beautiful women from all over the world in a most fiendish way. He gave them everything they ever needed, wanted and more. That was just warm up to the really lavish gifts. Many of the women found it difficult if not impossible to leave that carefree world of no worries to assume concerns and worries. So they could live up to what other women though all modern women should be. They didn't want to leave the palaces and private Islands to become just another rat in the rat race. For shame for shame. But both physical and psychological addiction come with natural consequence. We don't need the legislature trying to figure out how to make a bad thing worse. But that seem to be all they are capable of.

[BumRushDaShow]

116. So based on your argument

you think that "people" suddenly accepted that Michael Jackson was "White" because of his skin condition (+ whatever cosmetics and surgery he used)?

And use the argument to compare the choices of drug addicts and religions or political affiliations to the (U.S.) societal IMPOSITION of "race" to people of certain ethnicities and consider that somehow valid (where "race/ethnicity" was explicit in the U.S. Constitution but specific political affiliation or religious affiliations or "addictions" aren't)?

Problem with this argument is that the "choice" that you attribute to those who attempted to "pass" leaves out the fact that they were ALWAYS living in fear of being "exposed" and once "exposed", they were forced to rejoin the oppressed class. So their so-called "choice" was never really choice that they had the power to enforce for themselves. Their status was (and still would be) ultimately made and enforced by those in power in the society.

Case in point was the underlying raison d'etre for Plessy vs. Ferguson - where the litigants purposely picked Homer Plessey to test the law, a man who was 1/8th black and very much "looked white". Yet the man still lost his case, having been considered "black". Didn't matter what he looked like. And even a number of decades later, the idiot Rehnquist felt that Plessy v. Ferguson should have stood - a man who would become the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

[BolivarianHero]

121. The argument is only partially correct...

Cannabis use is a choice compared to something like race, but one cannot logically argue that somebody who consumes cannabis on their own time lacks the competence or the moral fibre to do certain types of work. The night before I got the top mark in the class on my global political issues exam (1st year undergrad), I was getting stoned and playing cards. Naturally, the fact that I kept up with the readings, had perfect attendance, and participated consistently in class had far more bearing on my performance than whether or not I was cramming the night before the exam rather than doing my own thing.

[northzax]

127. so you're high functioning

my father was very successful, a pillar of the community, despite being an alcoholic. after addressing his addiction several times, he is a lot less financially successful, but he's happy, and he has dinner with his wife (second, of course) every night, and he does what he loves, instead of what he had to self medicate for. I know people who drink much more than he ever did (while I was cognizant of it, of course) and wouldn't call them alcoholics. and I know people who drink a lot less than him and are still useless. there are lines for everyone. the only problem is, you can't tell where someone's line is until they cross it. hence the danger. would I hire someone who smoked weed, and admitted it? sure, but they'd have a shorter leash. just as I would if someone had any substance problem I was aware of. frankly, being stoned or drunk would interfere with your ability to do my job. have I done it hungover? yes. but I was seriously impeded. which meant more work for my coworkers.

and sorry, but your personal experience with a BS freshman year global political issue exam is statistically irrelevant. just as many people find drugs and alcohol and crash and burn. I saw that happen to people as well.

[Wizard777]

130. Drug use and race are not the same. But the way bigots treat both are.

I guess "high functioning" is like being a "high yellow." Those were blacks that could be successful in life in spite of the handicaps (all man made of course) of being from african ancestry. Because they could pass for white and avail themselves of the opportunities reserved for whites only. Then came the term mulatto. It's the same old hate and discrimination. You just found a new group to make focusing your self declared superiority upon socially acceptable. Now we reserve those opportunities for success to non drug users. Same old stank.

[northzax]

136. oh bullshit

I've seen a lot of stuff in my life. but I have never seen the following, have you?

someone offer to suck my dick for twenty bucks so they could get a little more black.
someone offer their child for 50 bucks so they could get a little more latino to smoke.
someone steal from their boss to get a little more Asian.
someone get a little too black and get into a fight.
someone getting a little to asian and driving a car into a group of children
someone not showing up to work because they're a little too black.
someone getting a little too latino and beating the shit out of their kids.

any of these happen to you? you seen that happen? your moral equivalence sickens me, frankly.

I don't feel superior to anyone with an addiction, I have seen way too much of it in my life to feel that way. But I also know that addiction means choosing that over anything else in your life. so if you have a drug problem, I will help you however I can, but I am not going to lend you money, sorry. the fact that you don't know the difference between one thing that is a choice, destructive and (reasonably or not) illegal, and one thing that is native born, is, frankly, ridiculous and offensive. if also tells me that you are a: white. b: at least middle class, c: under 21 and d: lucky as shit that you haven't seen it yet. I hope you live you whole life thinking that using drugs is equivalent to being a racial or ethnic minority, because that means you'll never have to deal with the fallout of personal choices that often lead people down a path you don't want to be on.

Look, I'm not going to moralize about your personal drug use. I don't really care if you drink (I do) or smoke weed (I have) or do lines of coke off a stripper's ass (not as fun as you'd think) but you need to understand there is a connection between that beer and the guy sleeping in the gutter on sunday morning. there's a connection between that line and the woman willing to sell you her body for small change. it's the exact same connection between having sex and STDs. not everyone who has casual sex will get an STD, but it's awfully hard to get one without having sex. and if you can't understand those connections, then frankly, you are not mature enough to be having sex, or drinking, or doing drugs. the fact that you think taking a bong hit leads to the same discrimination that black people still find in this society tells me that, no, you aren't mature enough to be taking that bong hit.

if you are denied an opportunity for advancement of success because of drug use, then stop using drugs. or are the drugs more important to you than the other opportunity? if you've lost an opportunity because you are a minority, then stop being a minority. see how's one's a choice?

[NashVegas]

143. Bless You

[Wizard777]

161. You need to pay attention. I didn't say drug use and race were the same.

Just the mechanism of Bigotry and discrimination used against them. Different people have different way on handling desperation. It doesn't really matter if that desperation is induced by drug use or even a disaster. During Katrina, if that is the condition you place upon generosity or charity, you could have found plenty of hungry people at the super dome willing to suck your dick for a corn dog. But Katrina and FEMA's non response wouldn't have been the only thing victimizing those people. Uh huh. The difference between you and I is that I'm 77 years old. I remember America before we had these oppressive drug laws and an even more oppressive Black Market crushing people between a rock and a hard place. We had drugs and we had people that used drugs. We didn't have the crimes and we didn't have the desperation induced by the government and black market engaging in flank attacks upon individuals en masse. They try to make life as hard as possible for drug users. Just like they used to make life as hard as possible for blacks and other minorities. This isn't something off the top of my head. I've studying this for quite some time. I assure you the elements are there.

Their problems are not entirely of their own creation. You can't expect them to take responsibility for the problems they cause themselves unless you're also willing to take responsibility for the problems society causes them with drug laws that maintain a black market. As far as I'm concerned that is equally irresponsible. Here in Baltimore we are beginning to take responsibility for the harm society can cause drug users. We are experimenting with harm reduction. It's working. We have been able to reduce our Overdose death rate. That comes from a combination of treatment and tolerance. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We can have both and we can make both work for the individual. This includes prescribing Narcan to users of heroin and other opiates. The greatest and most effective harm reduction will come with legalization and regulation of the drug market.

Why people go off on these years or even decades long binges of self destruction. Much like you, they don't know any better. They don't know any other way. They just accept that's how it is. That induces the hopelessness that marks the beginning of the decline. I'm 77 years old and I've smoking marijuana since I was 9. I've used everything from opium to cocaine to LSD and more. I've never had any of these problems modern users encounter. But I also don't use drugs to simply get high. I use them entheogenically (Sacramental.) My uses have purpose and direction. The effects are creative, enlightening and personally enriching. There is a better way. The people uses of these substances has always been religious. They are tools of the Maji. This government has bastardized them into weapons of war against a population they would rather imprison and destroy than serve as Constitutionally mandated. These substances compel spiritual states devoid of materialism. Our capitalist society considers that lack of materialism to be the greatest of sins. God's not going to tolerate this any longer. I promise you that.

In my religion I am both a Priest and long awaited Prophet. People come to me and they say, Magus Amathion my kid is smoking crack and it's taken everything they own from them. I tell them, You're a Christian. What difference does it make if it's crack or a guy named Jesus telling them to leave all their worldly possessions behind and follow me? Either way they don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Either way God is preparing them for a spiritual quest. The only problem I have with what your kid is doing is not understanding that God is preparing them for a spiritual quest. Once you make sure they understand that. You have to let go and let God. That's His child too. You raised the child and he will raise the man.

So now hopefully you better understand where I'm coming from. I have thousands of years of history behind my position on this. It is long though out, well formed, gaining in popularity and utilization.

[Wizard777]

129. Correct. I also was not comparing drug use to race.

That was just to refute his claim that no one can choose their race. In deed some people can and have. The more the races mix. The greater that choice becomes. The more people that will be able to make that choice. The traditional pure blood doctrine racial features will eventually fade in the mix. As far as the people who were passing goes. Once they were exposed. They usually moved to a new town where their race wasn't known. Hell I even knew a guy with Racial Dysmorphic Syndrome or as he put it. "A white man trapped in a black mans body." I accept it as a genuine complaint. But I still have to laugh at it to this very day. I think it's just the awkward way he explained it to me. He said, You know how some guys say they are a woman trapped in a mans body. I said, Yeeeeeeah. Thinking he's about to come out of the closet. He says, I feel like a white man trapped in a black mans body. He went on to explain how he couldn't identify with black culture. He more closely indentified with white culture. I've seen many a strange thing in my 77 years. There comes a point when you just have to say to each his own or go insane.

[Wizard777]

51. You don't have to expose children to hatred and racism to teach them about equality.

That's about as dumb as saying if a parent or guardian is walking past a bank that is being robbed. They should rush right in with the child to expose them to the reality of robbery. That way they won't be shocked by it later in life. Never mind the potential for violence. As robberies and racial disputes often give way to. Who really cares if one of the kids is injured or killed as long you win your political pissing contest? Now take a second to think about this. One of those kids is your kid. You get a call from the day care center. The bad news is that your child is in intensive care after one of the racists damned near drowned them. But the good news is that we won the political pissing contest to get the child admitted to the pool.......so a racist could damn near drown them. Hey and it's looking like were gonna win this pissing contest over the attempted drowning too. Thank You for allowing us to play OUR political games with YOUR children as the chits. We don't care how many of YOUR children we have to sacrifice to make OUR point. How pissed would you be? Personally I would have hurt me some people at the day care center for exposing my child to that before I find the SOB that tried to drown my kid.

[BumRushDaShow]

65. Wow.

:wtf:

Did you actually read what happened here? This day camp group didn't go into this situation to "break" some private club for some kind of political reason. They faced a situation that required them to scramble around to find a place for the children to swim, they found a place, paid their $$$, and were then confronted with the ugly reality of racism 2009-style (and not even really 2009-style... more like 1909 or 1809). I.e., IMHO, pretty blatant considering the Freudian-slip terminology (or perhaps he meant it) of the director of the facility in his use of the term "complexion".

Based on today's Philly Inquirer article http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20090709_Montco_swim_club_accused_of_racial_discrimination.html">here, their regular pool was a Y in the Frankford section of the city and that facility closed due to lack of money. So they hunted around and found a facility with a pool not too far away that indicated that they were "open for membership". They staff filled out the paperwork, paid their money, and then when they showed up with the kids, things went downhill from there - apparently thanks to the parents of other members. The article indicates that despite there being "no behavior problems", they were asked to leave. Some children and staff were quoted as overhearing disparaging comments made by the club staff.

So where in this story is there anything about "political pissing contest(s)"?

Nowhere.

This was a life lesson for the children and it can become a positive one where they can be taught how to assess people and situations and learn to adapt. But to deny that what they experienced, happened, and then have them retreat into self-segregation to "protect" them, is equally idiotic. All that does is limit exposure to other cultures and helps to reinforce stereotypes. Kids are kids and most don't care who they are playing with (... even those who speak different languages). It's all in the quest for having fun.

Racism is taught.

[Wizard777]

76. I didn't say the camp wanted to make it a political pissing contest. They did the right thing.

They found another pool where the children would not be exposed to racism. But there are plenty of people HERE that want to turn this into a political pissing contest and sue them to try to force the racists to play nice with the black kids. Like you can actually do that. Thank God the child care professionals are more responsible than the political hacks HERE. They will go where they are welcome before they use those children as chits in a political pissing contest to force entrance to a place they are not welcome.

[BumRushDaShow]

90. How do you know this wasn't

a breach of contract and there is a desire to let an administrative judge decide whether there were sufficient grounds for suddenly breaking the contract? Which has nothing to do with "political pissing contest". :eyes:

[Wizard777]

96. They can go before a judge. But the camp will have to take steps to reasonably mitigate the damages,

Basically find a new pool to swim at. Which they have done. The judge will most likely order Status Quo Ante. Which the club did when they refunded the fee. Now the camp has to pay their lawyers for going before a judge to be officially told the problem was solved before they even hired the lawyers.

[BumRushDaShow]

101. So you accept

that a "lawsuit" wouldn't be some sort of "pissing contest" as you term it? :shrug: If they can't show force majeur for the breach, then regardless of the outcome, it will make them think twice about offering something as "open" and then suddenly change their minds. :eyes:

[Cha]

79. Thanks for that extra

backstory, too.

[noiretextatique]

105. children and adults are exposed to racism

may not (or may) be as blatant as it once was acceptable to be, but it still exists. there is no way to sheild a child from that reality. i tell my nieces and nephews the truth of my experience so that they can learn to cope better than i do.

[Wizard777]

112. Okay, why do you teach them with your own experiences. Why don't you take them to a KKK rally -

so they can have their own experiences with racism? Can you really teach a child the stove is hot without sticking their fingers in the flame and burning them? Maybe the day care center should hire some child molester so they can have some direct experience on why that's wrong too.

What you are doing is using your experiences to teach them about racism and equality. You're not directly exposing them to it. That's my whole point. If you truly believe racism is harmful. Why in the hell would anyone want to intentionally and directly expose a child to that harm? :shrug: Sounds like child neglect to me. But as long you win the pissing contest. Who really about any of that? I guess it's better to teach the children to let right, wrong and higher sensibilities be damned. Life is about winning and getting your way at all costs.

Some :sarcasm: was used in making this post. If it was properly used some specious sensibilities should have been harmed. Geesh!

[noiretextatique]

125. i don't have to directly expose them to it...they experience it themselves

that's something you seem either unwilling or unable to comprehend. of course the daycare would not have sent the kids to that place if they had known it was run by a racist nitwit and frequented by more racist nitwits. if they had known...but obviously they didn't know.
do you think we can anticipate encountering a racist jackass...or anticipate being charged more for a loan than a white person by bank of america?
where do you suggest my nieces and nephews live to avoid encounters with racists and racism? the only places i can think of aren't in the united states.

[Wizard777]

131. I understand completely. We're on the same page.

The language is paraphrased a lil differently. But the same page none the less. It's bad enough that they will encounter racism and other forms of bigotry in life. You don't need to intentionally expose them to racism to learn a life lesson as some here suggest. They did in deed do the right thing by taking the kids else where. Instead of forcing the racist (I refuse to call them jackasses. Because it's our mascot.)dumb asses to let them in and play nicely with them as some here suggest. It just takes all the logic out of the rational argument that racism is harmful. That's why these kids should be intentionally exposed to it in what amounts to a pissing contest. :wtf: We just have different ways of saying the same thing.

[Karenina]

152. Naa, DUUUU!

Some don't even get what they're NOT GETTING!!!

[goclark]

74. Exactly ~ I was raised in Maryland and I'm African American

My parents were always honest with me and helped me to keep my eyes wide open in situations that may not be welcoming because of my Race.

That said, they were equally as quick to point out the good that I should look for in people of all races.

Just one example: There was a contest in all the elementary schools (colored) in Baltimore.It was a contest to select the Best Poem to present to Marion Anderson. At the time she was known all over the world but when she came to Baltimore, she could only perform for a White Audience.

I wrote my poem about Miss Anderson and I won ` I was 8 years old!

As the winner, I was invited,with my Mom, to see Marion Anderson in concert at a downtown auditorium, my mother told me that it was "Only Whites" and she explained to me what " NO Negroes" meant to our people.


I was so excited and my mother dressed me up with a pretty bow and a beautiful dress. My grandmother spent at least one hour curling my long black hair with a round wooden stick. The neighbors came to watch her and I was getting more excited by the minute.

Everyone in the neighborhood and all my relatives came to see me and waved goodbye as we drove off, they gave me little flowers and sweet gifts -- I was a star!

When we entered through the stage door, we were taken to meet the great Marion Anderson! I was thrilled and recited my poem to her. She was so gracious and kind. It was magical.

I thought we were going to have a seat and watch the performance but to my surprise, we watched her sing on the stage side of the curtain -ironically, better than a front row seat. She was able to see me clap for her and she would give me lots of smiles when she would exit the stage after a select number of songs.

It was a once in a life time experience.
As I write this, I have an even stronger feeling that she must have told the manager....if I could not sit in the audience, she wanted my seat to be as close to her as a seat could be.

When her performance was over, she hugged me and told me that she was so pleased that I came to see her.


It took a few more years before people of color could sit in an audience downtown or even to sit on the main floor to see a Movie, we only were allowed to sit in the balcony.

I'd like to think that Marion Anderson and a little brown skin girl with her sweet Mom, had a lot to do with the barriers coming down.

[Cha]

82. Wow..that's a beautifully

poignant story, goclark. :cry::)

[Wizard777]

84. I'm from Maryland too. So you are also familiar with the Elkridge Country Club.

The whites only private country club that just recently changed their charter to allow black members to be admitted. Was this the result of being sued to hell and back? NO! As a private club there was nothing anyone could do to force them to accept black members. The reason they changed their charter was because the club couldn't be considered for membership in the PGA until they did.

Personally I would rather they congregate together in private clubs than being out there trying to disseminate their racism through other organizations. Pardon the pun. But let the scum pool in easily avoidable pockets.

[goclark]

128. Thanks for letting me know about Elkridge Country Club.

"Can't We All Get Along?"

- Rodney King

[Wizard777]

132. "In a perfect world full of perfect people" - Anonymous

Until then we have freedom of association. Which is the next best thing. A big part of achieving that "more perfect union." A place for everyone and everyone in their place.......even bigots.

[Karenina]

151. My parents moved to "Nap Town" ;-) when I was 2

I made a mad dash back across the MD Line at 15. The mindsets of both the oppressors and the oppressed had, by that time, worked my very last nerve...

[BumRushDaShow]

94. What a sweet story!

:hi: :hug:

My parents always talked about Marian Anderson since she was from here (Philly) and my grandparents had all lived in South Philly back in that day.

[goclark]

95. I just read what I wrote to my 90 year old Mom

She has Alzheimer's and she couldn't remember that it happened.

It was so sweet for me to let her know how much she has meant to me over all these years.

We both cried and hugged. :cry:

[BumRushDaShow]

102. Aww....

:hug:

[noiretextatique]

106. what a great, poignant, beautiful, sad, triumphant story!

you will have to share a poem in my next poetry slam :thumbsup:

[goclark]

109. Let me know ~

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

126. will do

:hi: kudos to you for winning that contest and meeting marion anderson. a really beautiful story...especially the part about you getting such special treatement from ms. anderson. it's so great that she, one black woman, had the power to undermine a hateful, racist caste system.

[mopinko]

44. they have already been exposed to hate.

it would be nice if they were now exposed to reconciliation, forgiveness and growth. not that that is easy, it is not. but i think that would be a better lesson than just go back where you came from.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Amen

[Wizard777]

73. In that case. Don't forget to get the kids a KKK membership too.

Once they've learned hatred, discrimination and racism 101 at the pool. It would be a shame to deny them the higher education opportunity of advanced hatred, discrimination and racism a KKK membership would provide. Talk about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. You just want to go running right down that road with a bunch of kids in tow. Dayum! The song is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6pphVs8bF0">"Teach your children WELL." Not teach your children HELL. Feed them on your nightmares. So they will know. People hate them. Dayum! How messed up is that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. The children will learn a valuable lesson once justice is served

Both the campers and the children with the right 'complexion' who are members of that club.

[Wizard777]

54. Except that justice says private clubs may discriminate and that is perfectly legal.

It is by no means moral or ethical. But it's perfectly legal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Not when they advertise

I saw a video of the club and there was a huge sign on the fence encouraging groups to rent out their pool. You can't advertise and then discriminate against potential customers.

This is the reason most private clubs don't advertise. This club in Philly was stupid to advertise for business.

[Wizard777]

63. From what I understand they advertized that they were open for membership.

You still have to meet the conditions of membership to be accepted as a member. Freedom of association comes with freedom of speech and press. Just see the First Amendment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. The sign I saw on the video was about RENTING the pool

It didn't say anything about membership.

[JanusAscending]

99. I'm sorry.............

but we have enough apologists in Congress. Take your head out of your ass,' cause you sound just like them!!

[Wizard777]

120. I apologize for nothing! All the vile crap you only read about in your history books.

I have lived through. When it came time to march. I was there! When it came time to vote. I was there! At times when they did not enjoy that right. As a white man I used MY undeniable freedom of association to associate with blacks. That is where your head is up your ass or your just youthfully naive. Apparently you think that any legal weapon you form can never be used against you. That's simply not true. Nor is it conducive to equal rights. Because early on in the movement that's how the racists though. They just form legal weapons to keep the blacks at bay. The blacks couldn't use those weapons against them. So some of us whites started to use their own legal weapons against them. So what it comes to is that what ever legal means you try to use to force them to let you into their racist lil private club to spread your message of equality. They can use that same precedent to force you to let them into your equality private club to spew their racist hate. It's legal for private clubs to have a rule that says you can't be black. It's also legal for private clubs to have a rule that say you can't be a racist. Justice is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. Frankly, they're scum. I don't want anyone forcing me to associate with them and I don't want anyone forcing them to associate with me. Pardon the pun. But I would rather let the scum pool in easily avoidable pockets. After all it is their right and ours.

[JanusAscending]

148. Tee.hee,hee!!!

Ya think I'm "youthfully naive" ???!!!! Me, who is the 70 yr. old Caucasian widow of a very black African American husband? Me who also marched for civil rights in the 60's and 70's????:rofl: You are just too much!! Oh, and by the way..........you tend to use too many "they, them, and us and we's" in your posts, and I know that "I" can read between the lines. You're a dead giveaway, so go away and don't bother me child!

[Wizard777]

158. I got ya by 7 years. 1931 hon. I'm 77 headed for 78 and beyond.

My parents were very progressive for their time. Mom was a suffragette and Dad was an intellectual. They never taught me racism as some here suggest that you should teach children. Nor would they allow anyone else to try to teach me that vile crap. What they taught me was equality. I think what people are failing to realize is that is no longer the status quo in our society. They are no longer able to keep blacks separate or deprive them with their racist ways. Now they keep themselves separate and deprive themselves with their racist ways. That's they way it should be.

[JanusAscending]

182. I noticed your age in your post after I posted you!!

Color my face red! OK I'll let you off the hook this time, and just agree to disagree on some points!! Is there a Mr. or Mrs. Wizard777??? Just askin'!:fistbump:

[Wizard777]

183. No Mrs Wizard. Not from a lack of trying. LOL

Ive lead a very strange life. Probably why I have some strange views. I'm a retired Executive bodyguard and priest. But my Religion allow marriage. Actually it kinda insists upon it. But Gods about to help the world with it's over population problem. So I'm not pressed to marry and He's not pressing me to marry.

I'm one of those people that even though I don't agree with what a racist is saying. I will support and defend their right to say it. I support freedom and liberty for all. I'm old enough to know. The best way to defend your freedom and liberty is to defend the freedom and liberty of others. Especially those of the people you don't like. Because that's how they sneak precedents through court that will come back and haunt you. They're not gonna try to take away the freedom and liberties of a popular person everyone will defend. They try to take away the freedom and liberty of someone no one likes. Like a racist or child molester. People with quickly part the freedoms of a racist or child molester. Then one day to their horror they discover they were also giving away their own freedom and liberty. Then it's just too late to do anything about it. They tricked you into cutting your own throat.

I now believe you are a mature and wise lady. At our age we can quickly admit when we're wrong or not entirely right. We have better things to do with our precious time than argue just for the sake of arguing. But it can be fun trying to straighten the youngins out. LMAO But sure we can agree to disagree on some points. But I think we probably agree upon much more than we disagree upon. I think some of the things we disagree upon are also things we agree upon but express differently. Besides I get suspicious of people i agree with entirely or agree with me entirely. I think they're trying to con me out of something. LOL :fistbump:

[wisteria]

62. What would you suggest as "justice"?

A private club is just that,and they may well be in there legal rights not to accept 65 children in their pool at one time. Did you ever consider that perhaps they were concerned about the safety of 65 children at one time in the pool? They may not have been equiped to handle the situation-a few racist members comments aside. (The pool can't control the thought processes of its members)

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. They advertised to rent out their pool

Justice would be a huge legal settlement. Money talks. :)

[Cha]

85. Money talks and it looks

like the The Valley Swim Club needs to be held accountable for their actions.

[goclark]

160. $$'s are green, ~ our money is the ssame color for everyone

I get angry everytime I hear about this story on TV - it causes me to relive my childhood in Maryland as an African American.

[LanternWaste]

70. I imagine that Thelma Mothershed...

I imagine that Thelma Mothershed, Minnijean Brown, Elizabeth Eckford, Gloria Ray, Jefferson Thomas, Melba Beals, Terrence Roberts, Carlotta Walls, Daisy Bates, and Ernest Green would disagree.

[aquart]

92. By all means, let us allow prejudice lest it sully our delicate ears.

DO YOU THINK THESE CHILDREN DON'T KNOW WHAT PREJUDICE LOOKS LIKE? If they don't, they should.

The first time I heard a Christian say that Jews killed Christ was an earthshaking shock. Children need a few shocks or they don't grow up.

Your gutless approach to nastiness would leave the entire world in the hands of the most vile.

[Wizard777]

162. Oh please wake up and smell the roses. This is no longer the status quo in society.

Racists are no longer able to keep others seperate or deny them anything. Now their racism can only keep them seperate and be used to deny themselves things. That's how it should be.

[mopinko]

98. do you have kids?

they are a lot stronger than you seem to think. i never saw the sense of trying to keep kids in a bubble. we are only a generation or 2 away from shotgun justice, and killing our own food. kids saw plenty of that. they are programmed to adapt to their world. it is just stupid to hide them from it.
and that club should not only allow them to return, they should welcome them with a giant apology. hey, fat chance i suppose, but change is always uncomfortable. and if that were to be accomplished, what a great lesson that would be for those kids.

[Wizard777]

163. I'm not suggesting they be kept in a bubble. But answer this one question.

If you truly believe racism to be harmful. Why would you intentionally expose a child to that harm? Isn't that a big part of what child abuse is made of? Intentionally exposing children to what you know or believe to be harmful. I think the better question is do YOU have kids? :wow:

[mopinko]

166. i have 5. answer my question and i will answer yours. np

[Wizard777]

176. Fair enough.

I have no biological children that I am aware of. But I do have 50 God children in several religions. Their parents have entrusted me with their spiritual care and growth. In the event of the unthinkable. I would take over complete care of the children as appointed guardian. I also have paperwork that allows to make legal and medical decissions in the absence of their parents. So I have 50 children (most are are now adults) I love as my own. But none of them are my biological children.

Your turn.

[mopinko]

181. yeah, then i don't think you know what you are talking about.

i think it would be great for the kids to have the experience that i stated- welcomed back by a penitent club. i would also love to see some of those kids on the picket line. they got the slap of racism, it would be great for them to fight back.
in general, tho, to wrap a kid in cotton and pack them in a box is a far greater disservice than being there to help them deal with the world the way it is. i think that we were better off before this stupid idea reared its stupid head.

[Kittycat]

113. No, so the racists lose their haven of hate.

Everywhere racism is allowed, I think it should be saturated the very people they chose to be racist against. Send the message that racism cannot thrive, or even hide anywhere in this country. It simply isn't acceptable.

[Wizard777]

164. Oh well then. I guess it's a good thing you thought of that before they did.

Even if they did. The laws not going to allow for that. I would not support them forcing their way into your private club to force their racists beliefs upon you. I also don't support you forcing your way into their racist club to force your beliefs of equality upon them. I don't support anyone forcing beliefs upon any one. Especially after we spent the last 8 year bitching about another one way mother fucker. It's all my way or the highway. Your either for or against us. How dare you have an opinion other than the one I hand you. :eyes: Uh huh.

[Kittycat]

188. Racism isn't an acceptable for of free speech.

Sorry, but it's just one thing I can't stand by and support. And if you can sit there and support it as 'free speech', then why not just post a freaking Hitler avatar? There are some things in this world that just shouldn't be allowed, simply put. And I hope the kids sue the 'club' for emotional trauma and discrimination. The camp paid for access, and instead hey were humiliated and treated worse than those people treat their pets.

[notadmblnd]

119. They should be sued and driven to bankrupty

They would forced to shutter the pool, then the little racists sons of bitches could do their swimming in a washtub.

[Wizard777]

165. Except that they have a right to be racist. It's not moral and it's not ethical.

But it's entirely legal to hold racist beliefs.

[goclark]

122. Huum ~ like the Little Rock Nine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine

These children were brave and because of their bravery the nation took notice.

Should they have been brave enough to walk into that school?

History will be the judge.

I am African American and grew up in segregated schools in Maryland. I am grateful that because of their bravery, thousands of little black girls and little black boys have been able to go to school with children of ALL races.

[Wizard777]

167. You can't confuse public and private entities.

That's a whole different ballgame. It's totally different. They kids are being denied access to all public pools because of their race. They are just being denied access to that one private pool.

As for the Little Rock Nine. If children want to Confront racism in public venues. That's fine as long adults keep their safety and well being as the foremost concern. But they shouldn't be forced to do it. Private venue are entitled to privacy freedom of association and all that other good stuff that can put to bad uses.

[goclark]

179. I've seen a few clips of the children on the MSM

As an African American we are not forced to see Racism when it raises its ugly head.

We see it straight on and we have a long history of how our ancestors have taught us and protected us as we learn what the real world is all about.

We have a different perspective because our ancestors were slaves and were "forced" to endure racism beyond a doubt.

Unless you grew up as African American it is difficult to know the feeling.

End of Discussion

[Wizard777]

184. Oh it's a black thing I can't possibly understand. How original.

Maybe that's racism is really all about white things you can't possibly understand and black things we can't possibly understand. :eyes:

[goclark]

189. If you didn't grow up in a segregated environment,

it should not be an insult to understand that you have not experienced what I have nor should you be expected to.

That does not make you a racist, unless you choose to be one.

I think better of you than that ~


End of discussion

[Wizard777]

191. Oh, but I did grow up in a segregated environment. It was the law.

Yes, being white, the grass was greener on my side of the segregated fence. But the greener grass didn't make segration any less ugly.

[BumRushDaShow]

192. But you benefited from it anyway

thus negating the argument of somehow being able to "understand" the life of those who did not benefit from the injustice targeted against those defined to be of a certain sociological/phenotypical "race" (with laws that delineated, supported, and enforced the disparate treatment, with the full knowledge that upholding those laws would cost an inordinate amount of money). That is the real meaning behind that famous saying. And as such, the term does not eliminate the fact that prejudice against certain ethnic/class/gender/religious groups occurs as well, but the racial component adds an extra burden to those who may already experience oppression for those other reasons.

[Wizard777]

196. If I benefited from it. I'm not aware of how.

I was born on the tail end of the depression. My parents were poor. But not desperately poor. In those days you would have more problems NOT saying the now infamous "N word." I didn't use it. I even got into fights at times because I wouldn't disparage or mistreat blacks. I would talk to them, not down to or at then, and even associated with them. What it comes down to is they were different. If your going to tell me I don't know what it's like to be different. Boy are you barking up the wrong tree and it's a Sequoia. I'm 6' 11". So Yes I do know what it's like to be treated different because of your physical attributes or appearance. I can still remember playing with some friend when a guy came walking down the street and confronted me. What are you doing playing with those little kids? What are you some kid of retard? You kids shouldn't be playing with him. One of my friends spun around and told him. Mister he's the youngest one here and if you make him cry we're gonna kick your butt! Most of the barriers I've encountered in life haven't been legal. They've been physical. So yeah I do know what it's like to different and treated differently because of it. So it is possible for me to have empathy instead of sympathy.

[BumRushDaShow]

198. My father was born in 1924

and my mother in 1930. My father put his life on the line and served this country in WW II (and HIS father served this country in WW I) yet neither could freely buy a house where they wanted because blacks were excluded from most of the burgeoning suburban developments that began to ring the cities after the wars. My grandfather was refused admission to University of Penn Med School in 1920 because he was told that "they already had their 2 n***ers"), but he was welcome to attend the Dental School (which he did and graduated in 1924). My mother was refused a secondary ed teaching position (in a Phila. high school) here in Philly, despite having a Poli Sci. and Sec. Ed. degree and having passed the Sec. Ed teacher's exam with flying colors. Why? Because black teachers were not permitted to teach beyond the elementary grades in the city of Phila. schools until Brown V. Board of Ed.

Even to this day, red-lining and other dipping and dodging around continues to go on and proof of this still continues to come as a surprise to the exasperated media, who soon discover (some via test cases) that the "bait and switch" tactics (which happened in this particular case) have now substituted for the "No Negroes Allowed" signs.

The choice of where to live or eat or walk or drive did not apply to you. That is how you benefited. Benefit meaning "one less strike against you" than others. One less hassle to run into or hoop to jump through just to carry out the basic expectations of society. The unusually tall white would still be allowed to buy a house in Levittown, PA whereas a black of the same height would not. And when the argument then shifts to the "Then blacks should buy or start their own (fill in the blank business)...!". And the minute someone tries, here comes the same bloviators demanding the answer to "Why do blacks separate themselves from others?" or "Why do blacks all sit together?" or other such nonsense. It's a no-win situation and it underscores the depravity of the thought processes of many in this society and the deep-seated roots of institutional racism that lurks in the subconscious.

As I noted earlier, there are many many forms of prejudice that continue to go on today, which in fact acknowledges that no one's life is a bed of roses. However the original point was that this society must continue to struggle against and point out the subconscious use of loaded statements and visualizations that act as a dog whistle to those who truly are hateful.

This club's explanations continue to help to dig themselves deeper and deeper. And the irony is, the arguments supporting and upholding the sociological tendency for people "to be with their own" (as in the case of a "private" organizations or clubs) never seems to apply to blacks because such groups are continually attacked 24/7 - case in point, the systematic attempts to destroy the HBCU system, a group of schools setup specifically because children were explicitly excluded from attending most white colleges and universities in the recent past.

[goclark]

190. Huum ~

[grace0418]

135. I understand the point you're trying to make but I hardly think it compares to the racism

exhibited on the comments page. You may not agree with the lawsuit, but at least they are trying to make people think and make them change their minds. Remember all the young men and women that were the first to go to desegregated schools. They were children, and I'm sure it was extremely difficult for them. But because of their bravery some people were forced to confront the evils of racism and realize how stupid it is. Most prejudice is based on ignorance, which seems impossible in this day and age but it's true. Some folks will always hold their hateful small-minded beliefs, but many more will actually change their minds when they realize that "hey, that black family down the street has all the same joys and problems as any other. That gay couple next door goes to work, plays with their kids, mows their lawn, worries about paying bills, etc. JUST LIKE EVERYONE DOES." Some people won't see the truth until they must confront it.

[Wizard777]

168. Those were all public facilities and institutionalized racism.

You do not have those rights with private facilities. The Boy Scouts can refuse you membership for being Jewish. That religious discrimination. They can also refuse you membership for being a girl and that's sexism. What confuses people with the Boy Scouts and their uses of discrimination. They think the Boy Scouts are a civic organization and they are actually a religious organization that also teaches civic. What people are confusing here are the rights of public and private entities.

[grace0418]

169. I'm not confusing anything. Private organizations that engage in bigotry need to be

confronted just as much as any public organization. Just because they can legally do something doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean they should be allowed to continue on their path without resistance.

[Wizard777]

175. Okay you win! They shouldn't be able to keep undesirables out of their private clubs.

Now lets advance the cause. You also don't have a right to keep minorities out of the private areas of your body. Should a white woman be allowed to marry a white man and have white babies and live happily ever after in their racists paradise with a white picket fence? Of course not! We must even attack racism at that most private an intimate level. We must subject racists to Genocide to wipe them off the face of the earth completely and in entirety. We must compel equal opportunity mating. No one may marry until they have dated people of all races. Once they meet the equal opportunity provisions then may then make an unbiased choice of a mate. That decision is subject to litigation by other suiters for claims of discrimination....... Are you really really REALLY sure you want to eliminate discrimination from all aspects of private life?

[grace0418]

178. No, *YOU* win. You're right. We should never confront bigotry because that will lead

to people being forced to date people of all races. Uh, WTF?

Wow, that's quite a leap you're making. Sounds disturbingly like the arguments I've heard against gay marriage. "Well, once you let the gays marry, then the next step is letting people marry their dogs!"

Uh, no, not really at all. But I don't think I can win, nor do I want to win, an argument against someone who'll make those kinds of mental leaps to "prove" their point.

[Wizard777]

185. You can confront public uses of bigotry. But not private ones.

If properly structured it's actually protected.

[Karenina]

150. By your logic Brown vs B of E was a bad decision?

American schools should NOT have been taken to court and forced to allow me to attend the elementary school a mile away from our home? Do you not believe that at 6 years old I was already acutely aware of the "color code?" I was one of those "irons placed in a fire" who forced a political point, along the way developing coping mechanisms to deal with the INSANITY of the dominant community. If you are a person of colour in the U.S. the hate is in the very air you breathe. There is NO AVOIDING IT.

[Wizard777]

170. That's not a proper legal argument. Those were public schools.

This is a private pool. A more apropriate legal question in conjunction with this would be. Should a Private Catholic school neforced to enroll the child of satantists and be forced to teach their child satanism instead of catholicism. The answer is No.

[Karenina]

177. I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.

However, the question might be posed; IS IT ACTIONABLE when a private club opens its facilities to the general public then discriminates on the basis of race AFTER THE CONTRACT IS SIGNED? :shrug: I hope there are legal eagles looking into ALL ASPECTS of this pathetic situation.

As a lifelong, official "tester of the envelope," I'm not at all opposed to pushing the boundaries. It is INDEED when those, who wish to fill their children's heads with white supremacy, are ejected from their "private" comfort zones that REAL PROGRESS is made.

[Wizard777]

186. I've had some parallel experience in this area.

What this is going to come down to is a first amendment question. My religion has caused me to become well versed in the first amendment. In religion Opium,Cocaine, Marijuana, and other hallucinogenics are sacraments. We use them in prayers and rituals. I've already been the rounds to establish my personal right to freely exercise my religion in spite of laws against our sacraments. Next I will found the church that takes me too freedom of assembly. I've also participated in debates about a whites only country club here in Maryland. We had real lawyers also participating in that. What this club was doing was entirely legal. They didn't accept any state of federal funds. They represented and conducted their business as a private entity. There was absolutely nothing anyone could do to make them admit black members. The club eventually changed their charter to allow black members to be admitted. But it wasn't because of any law suites or protests. They changed the charter because the club wanted to join the PGA. That why I say Racist no longer deny or deprive others the way they used to. Now they can only deny and deprive themselves. I'm fine with that. They too have right that should be respected.

One other point. You engage in some supremacy yourself. Because you're willing to believe that they, their beliefs, and rights are not equal to yours. That's the exact same mechanism their particular brand of Supremacy functions on. So will the real supremacist please stand up.

[Karenina]

187. Errraaaaa.... OOOKaaay. I'm fine with all of it.

Tschüß! :hi:

[stlsaxman]

154. So- you would "protect the children from the hatred" espoused by their parents?

"So the CHILDREN can be exposed to the racist views and hateful treatment of the members. That's not a lesson a child should be forced to learn. No child should ever be intentionally exposed to hate."

How inconvenient for any child that learns that the "others" his parents say are below them and do not deserve equality, are actually human beings.

A quote by Frank Zappa to an audience in Las Vegas applies here- "If your children knew how lame you really are- they'd murder you in your sleep."

[Wizard777]

174. That's a different ball of wax. I'm against people interfering with parenting.

Parents should be free to pass on religious, cultural, and ethnic customs and beliefs. Those are not always tolerant. But I also believe the truth is self evident and cannot be concealed from those who seek it. If what the parents teach their kids is truth it will survive contact with reality. If not they will see it for it the lie it is. It is possible to navigate a sea of lies to a tiny Island of Truth. It's not the quickest and easiest way to arrive at the truth. But is possible to get there from here. I'm definitely against other people teaching someone Else's child racism. My parents wouldn't allow anyone to teach me racism. When I was child it was the Status Quo. That's because my parents were teaching me about equality. It was truth that survived contact with reality.

[wisteria]

60. Maybe we want all the facts before we judge anyone.

It may look one way,but actually be something else entirely. There are always two sides to a story and in Philadelphia, which has a diverse population,voted for President Obama overwhelmingly,has a Black Mayor and a city council run by mostly minorities, I find it hard to believe that there is not more to this story than is being reported. Ultimately, it harms everyone when derogatory claims are made that are not true.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. I watched several news videos online

and read comments following articles. The pool manager is on tape using the word "complexion" when explaining why the day camp kids can't come to his pool. In another video, he is screaming at the cameras to get off his property or he will call the police.

It looks really bad for this club.

[BumRushDaShow]

77. This has nothing to do with Philadelphia

The pool club is OUTSIDE of Philadelphia, in neighboring Montgomery County... The day camp and its children are FROM the city. See, the lazy reporters are trying to blur it to make it seem like this is all just happening in the city.

If the director had come right out and said - "We have a capacity issue per {fill in the blank club/county/state ordinance/rule}..." then they might have considered working out an alternate arrangement such as allowing 1/2 the kids one week, and 1/2 the other... OR they could have just turned down the application right off the bat.

But they didn't have the courtesy to even do that.

The kids showed up and started swimming in the pool and they were told not to return when they were done their session.

Swimming while black (SWB). Might as well get 'em ready for the DWB ("Driving While Black") days to come when they are older.

[Wizard777]

172. Now there is a wise point I whole hearted support.

But many around here believe hysteria and self righteous indignation is either preferable over facts or a suitable substitute. Boy won't they be embarrassed if it turns out this has nothing to do with racism. I'm more than willing to entertain the idea that is due to racism. But there are few willing to even consider it might not be racism as the club claims. One of the things I noticed in the videos at the club. The kids in the background seemed to be playing quietly and orderly. If the other kids came in and got caught up in the excitement of going swimming. YEEEAAAAH! Splash! They have fundamentally changed the atmosphere and it has nothing to do with their race. They have made it loud and disorderly. Many pools public and private have rules that require kids to play quietly and orderly so there do not interfere with others enjoyment of the pool and it facilities. But again at this point even this just supposition which is not fact.

[jberryhill]

206. Huntington Valley is in Montgomery County - not Philly /nt

[Taverner]

171. There were some here even on DU supporting the racists

But then again, they probably were lurking freepers

[Posteritatis]

180. Here or on the original article?

The latter was especially horrifying, and obviously coordinated somewhere from the rate they were coming in.

[Mad_Dem_X]

3. It sickens me that attitudes like this still exist.

Disgusting.

[mix]

204. one of the children was interviewed by CNN,

maybe you saw it, but he was crying saying that he thought that these things didn't happen anymore...it broke your heart

[stlsaxman]

4. Bully for Girard College! It would seem they truly learned from their mistakes 45 years ago.

This "past history" has proven that "future history" is written in the "present history".

side note- great post! sorry, but the use of the term "past history" has always been a grammar-peeve of mine. when one qualifies the word "history" in this way it begs the question- "what other kind of history is there?"

[BumRushDaShow]

8. OMG LOL

:blush:

You are right! The term "past history" IS redundant!!! :rofl: :P Guess I was thinking/using "history" as a synonym for "record" or "story".

[stlsaxman]

14. glad you took it so well!

some are less tolerant of "grammar nazis" around here. grammar is the ONLY thing i will let come close to me being associated with the term "nazi".

and again- Good on Girard College!

[moggie]

39. Since you admit to being a grammar Nazi...

You might like to look into the correct usage of the phrase "begs the question", which you used incorrectly. :P

[BumRushDaShow]

43. That's just wrong.

:rofl:

[stlsaxman]

139. please, then- what is the correct phrase? i've heard it used, but why is it incorrect?

i am genuinely intrigued...

[moggie]

149. "Begging the question" describes a particular logical fallacy

Namely, a circular argument, in which you assume the truth of your conclusion while attempting to demonstrate it. Example:

God exists!
How do you know that?
Because the bible tells us so.
How do we know that what's said in the bible is true?
Because it's the word of God!

Most people these days use the expression "to beg the question" when they mean "to raise the question", out of ignorance of its original meaning. Normally I let such usage pass without comment, but, given the nature of your post, I couldn't resist.

Language changes over time, so sooner or later this new meaning will probably be accepted as "correct" even by dictionaries. Personally, I think that would be a shame, since it wouldn't happen if people had a better grounding in recognising good and bad arguments, which would entail knowing the original meaning of this term.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8fbrUjjivw

[stlsaxman]

153. i see your point, good one. "begging the question" sounds like a tactic Rush would use...

eeeeewwww!

I stand corrected and thank you for your erudite reply!

[starroute]

80. Only there is a difference between "history" and "past history"

If you said of someone, "He has a history of drug abuse," it would imply that it's still ongoing.

If you said, "He has a past history of drug abuse," it would mean that it was true at one time but may have ended.

"History" in this context doesn't refer to historical events. It means something more like a personal pattern of behavior or victimization.

So I'll match your grammar Nazi and raise you one -- and stand by the validity of "past history." :-)

[stlsaxman]

141. "He has a history of drug abuse " does not imply he currently abuses drugs.

"He has abused drugs in the past" is clearer still, but in no way clears him of current drug use. The only way to refer to his current abuse is to compound the sentence with either ", and he still abuses drugs" or ", but he no longer abuses drugs".

You can qualify "history" with "distant" or "recent", but "past" IS "history" and therefore redundant.

[Maeve]

16. Wasn't it Faulkner that said "The past isn't history, it isn't even past"

And Heinlein wrote several books of "future history"...

That said, it is redundant, like "hot water heater"

[WolverineDG]

6. Emphasis on the past tense for Girard College

And good for them!

dg

[BumRushDaShow]

10. Girard is not being "bashed" by me

I only indicated that it was ironic that of all the places with pools (and there are a number of private places around), it was heartening to see them step up to the plate given their past practices.

But for those of us AAs here in Philadelphia, particularly those who were children during the '60s like myself, who were exposed to this sort of thing on a much grander scale, the history and existence of such practices should NEVER be forgotten. My parents participated in marches throughout this city - including demanding the desegregation of our local YMCA/YWCA.

This wasn't "ancient" history. This didn't happen during "slave times". This is in MY lifetime and it still persists.

[KurtNYC]

7. Typical TV news stuff: "there's nothing better than jumping full-speed into a pool "

This is like all the beer commercials where they show people drinking beer at the beach or in a hot tub. Drinking beer on most beaches is illegal and drinking in a hot tub can create the risk of passing out and drowning.

Vince Lattanzio has apparently never been to a large swimming pool since almost everyone I have been to has the rule painted on the concrete:

"No running, jumping or diving."

Back in the real world: it is great that another entity has offered an alternative for these kids but that won't end this incident for the first "swim club"

[rosesaylavee]

9. Good for Girard College

Some people learn and grow in wisdom. And some people don't have a clue and wouldn't even know where to look for one if told to find one. Hopefully the clueless list is getting smaller.

What an awful thing to do to those kids.

[varelse]

11. If anyone thinks we are nearing a "postracial" society

All they have to do is open their eyes. We're not "done" with racism in the US, until this crap completely stops. I am glad the kids have a place to swim this summer, but angry that their right to an equal standing in our society has been questioned by a group of arrogant, hateful bigots. :(

[whathehell]

12. I'm a native Philadelphian and my brother-in-law was raise in Girard College

so I know something about it.

The past discrimination against minorities (and girls of any race, by the way) was a product of Stephen Girard's will which stated that the institution was for the benefit of "poor, white, male orphans".

That will was amended in 1968 by the Supreme Court to allow male orphans of any race.
-- It was amended a second time to include girls.

Stephen Girard was born in 1750 and died in 1831, so you could likely conclude that he say he was a man of his time.

[HillWilliam]

13. The comments on that Faux site were worse than disgusting

then again, it was a Faux site. The Klan is still alive and well in Murka, still using "christianity" to justify their hatreds. I saw a number of "white christian nation" posts and I thought, "Oh, yeah, dumbass? Read your history. Oh, right; you can't read and you can barely write." It just goes to show.

It saddens me, but doesn't surprise me, that the threads on this subject haven't received more posts. If this had happened in the south, the pile-on-the-south crew on DU would be out in full force. Racism is shockingly alive all over the US and it's a problem we all need to solve together. It's not just a southern problem, though the south usually gets painted with it and superior fingers and haughty "I told you so" posts number in the hundreds. As a southerner -- a generations-deep liberal southerner who was raised a generations-deep liberal Democrat -- I find the stereotyping offensive. It's as offensive to me as any other stereotyping is to any other group. Think about it... there are no monoliths.

Those kids didn't deserve those comments on that Faux site either. My heart aches for them as much for that as for them being turned out. We southerners have had a little taste of what they're getting there, right here on DU.

Until we're all free and equal everywhere, nobody's really free or equal; north, south, east, and west. Let's sweep our own front porch, then we can take it all the way to the street. I think we DUers as a group ARE better than that and can (and will) lead by example.

[Quantess]

118. Yesterday we were discussing that there must have been

KKK discussion boards and extreme RW discussions going on about this article, because at one point there were over 1500 comments and about half of them were exceedingly racist. The news website purged all 1500+ comments because it apparently was too big of a mess to edit out only offensive comments (or because there were too many offensive comments to deal with).

But, I'm sure this news story was a featured discussion topic on some racist websites and hate-websites. That would explain the deluge of disgustingly racist comments.

[InfiniteThoughts]

15. OMG ... who are these people ..

they don't deserve to be part of 21st century ...

How did the club president not know that the pool was being rented out? Guess he only likes White (folks) and Green (dollars).

My good friends ... I am nominating him for the "MORON of the DAY" AWARD ...

[LynneSin]

17. I wasn't suprise to see it was NE Philly

that place is a completely different world than the rest of Philadelphia. I think at one time the area petitioned to become it's own town and leave Philadelphia.

However, this one question does kinda bug me and perhaps I haven't seen the part of the story that explains this so bear with me. The club was private, I know I can't just walk into any private club and decide to use their pool. Why were these kids in a private club in the first place?

EDIT NOTE: Ok I see why the kids were in there. I just read about how the camp had paid to have their campers to have access to the pool on Monday.

[BumRushDaShow]

21. The club is actually in Montgomery County

Sadly there has been some sloppy reporting going on. As an FYI, Huntington Valley is NOT in the city of Philadelphia but is a border township in Montco right near Abington & Willow Grove. It is across from the Somerton neighborhood (which is in NE Philly).

Also, the camp advertised "open membership" for the summer and the staff filled out the paperwork and PAID for a membership for the kids for the whole summer ($1950) to use the pool once a week. I know many day camps do this if they are at a facility without a pool.

[LynneSin]

26. I use to live near that area - thanks for the update

I was up in Doylestown

Still, why am I not shocked?

[BumRushDaShow]

34. Doylestown?

Agree that neither you (nor I) would be shocked!!!! :rofl: :hi:

[Voltaire]

100. Good Golly, I can remember when minorities did NOT live in the N.E.

But that was 30 years ago when I left Philly to join the Navy. Interesting that.

[BumRushDaShow]

107. I remember that too

but then not long after, some new housing developments were built on the large tracts of open land there and a number of minority teachers and high level school administrators decided to give it a shot living there -- at least in the lower NE. I think the Far NE is still pretty homogeneous though.

[mrs_p]

22. the private club needs money

so has been contracting out pool time to local clubs. the day camp was one of the clubs. then the private club ended the contract (and returned the money) once its white members complained about the black kids. at least, that's what i got from the various stories i've read.

[goclark]

25. Amazing,

in 2009... :cry:

[mrs_p]

28. i know, right

here's their email address: [e-mail]

and here's what i sent them:

Dear The Valley Club:

I rarely respond to a news story, but this is seriously shocking:
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/070709_Swim_Club_Accused_Of_Discrimination.
While I do not live in your area, I will be sure to tell everyone I know
who lives in Philadelphia about your racist policies - which are simply
unbelievable in this day. I sincerely hope there is a boycott of your club
and that you are sued for all the money you are worth (and then some).

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. They are going to need lots of money to pay off the massive lawsuit

they will surely lose.

[treestar]

27. It might be - commercial establishments can be regulated via the

interstate commerce clause. But there was a case about a male only club, claiming they were private and didn't affect interstate commerce.

This is a link from googling "Interstate Commerce" and "private clubs."

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22Interstate%20commerce%22%20%22private%20clubs%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[LynneSin]

31. I added in there that I found out that the camp paid to use the pool

:D

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. The club advertised to rent out their pool

My friend the attorney says that makes this a very winnable lawsuit for the day camp kids.

[wisteria]

68. Excuse me, but I was born and raised in NE Philly and I have family still living there.

I think your comments are totally off base and wrong.
Also, consider that it may well have been possible the pool was not equipped to handle 65 children at one time. These private pools get crowded, but to have 65 children at one time seems like an awful lot to me. This may well turn out to me nothing more than a business misunderstanding on both sides.

[RamboLiberal]

83. Excuses, Excuses - I bet they the pool officials knew when

they drew up the contract how many kids the day care was bringing.

[pepperbear]

91. wow, you're trying hard aren't you?

highly unlikely that the club wouldn't know how many kids were involved when the center signed up.
And try as you might, that nagging phrase "change the complexion" is never going to be the same as "we're concerned for the safety of the children."

try again.

[Hansel]

114. Wouldn't it have made sense then to say "we are not equipped...

to handle 65 children at one time" instead of "There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club."

Their comment doesn't say they can't handle 65 kids at one time. If they were not meaning this as a discriminatory action then their use of the words "complexion" and "atmosphere" is unfortunate.

The kids were only going to be there one day a week for a couple of hours during the summer. How does that change the club's atmosphere outside of that time period? Here's how: the kid's parents think it's alright to become members. And once they start coming in, they will bring their families and friends and pretty soon the people with the "right complexions" stop coming. I've live around racists and red necks for far too long not to know exactly what this statement meant.

65 children could fit comfortably in most club pools. In addition, the children come with counselors. I worked at an inner city social service agency and we were not allowed to bring the kids to any pool without an adequate number of Red Cross certified lifeguards from our staff accompanying them.

Occam Razors tells me that they said complexion because they meant complexion.

[apnu]

18. Bravo for Girard College. Nice way to step up. (nt)

[barbtries]

19. racism alive and well in 2009 in the USA

the story made me want to cry. seems like we're getting nowhere sometimes. "change the complexion"?! bastard.

[Hansel]

115. Welcome to Sarah Palin's America nt

[Voltaire]

20. Good of Girard College to step up

There was a time when I was growing up in Philadelphia where that would not have happened and the story would be little remarked upon.

[rocktivity]

23. I used to be one of those kids

During summer day camp, I looked forward to being "bused" from the Bronx to Jacob Riis Park in Queens. Sure, Orchard Beach was closer, but the waves were so wimpy!

:headbang:
rocktivity

[crim son]

24. Mr. Duesler is so damned stupid he didn't see a problem

with using the word "complexion" when explaining his asshole-ish-ness.

[nc4bo]

103. Bigots rarely do. nt

[mzteris]

29. can you say LAWSUIT?

I think that "private club" should become "public property".

[mopinko]

45. right? absolutely.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. I'm thinking those kids won't have to worry about college tuition

:)

[noel711]

30. The story has many layers of human ignorance...

Most of the suburbs around Philly grew up from 'white flight'
as working class families made enough cash to afford the homes
in the highly taxed suburbs.

Most of these suburbs have 'private' swim clubs to keep out the undesirables..
we used to live in Yeadon, in Delaware County, right outside WEst Philly,
and that borough had its own 'private' Yeadon swim club...
for those exact bigoted purposes. We never joined that club...

Ironically, Yeadon had a vibrant AFrican American middle class,
who had the gusto to have their own 'private' swim club, The NIle Pool Club.
There were no restrictions on who could join the Nile,
all families were invited. Guess which was was the coolest?

But the other issue with how this is being reported is that
the reporters are not doing their homework.
They just skim over the issue, report what is news here and now.
Many young reports don't take the time to do deep research.
Televisions stations hire the 'attractive' people who are as dumb
as rocks... look at Sarah Palin, as evidence of the power of pretty.
If she look like a regular person, say, Susan Boyle, would she have
such influence? But I digress...

This history of prejudice and bigotry in our cities should not be ignored,
but is particularly ironic in PHiladelphia, because Philly was the first
big city across the Mason Dixon Line where slave could run and be free
of many of the laws that reinforced slaves as property to be returned to
their owners.
And Girard college, founded on supposedly good principles of
being an institution for orphans in poverty, BUT for years it
denied entrance to AFrican Americans... AND GIRLS!

Oh there's lots of issues here, but because of shallow reporting,
history is not being mined for exposure for the greater good.

Ah.. the media!

[BumRushDaShow]

40. Bingo.

Which is why I mentioned that the story came at the local M$M like the headlights of a car and they are frozen in place like deer in the road. The rich history and role of Girard college are but one subject that could be touched upon. Even KYW has dip and dodged around the story.

http://www.kyw1060.com/pages/4767973.php?

I guess they don't want to have the city "blow up" into some sort of race riot or something? :crazy: If anything, it's a teaching moment for the next generation who might wonder why the heart of Temple University's campus sits at what is now Broad St. and "Cecil B. Moore Ave." (formerly "Columbia Ave.") answering the question of who was Moore and what roles did he, the local NAACP, and even many national civil rights leaders play during the 1950s & '60s - particularly surrounding Girard college and how symbolic this was for Girard to step up to the plate.

[dipsydoodle]

32. Good

K & R.

[boobooday]

33. This is beyond disgusting

Those who perpetrate such discrimination need to be exiled.

[Wizard777]

35. I'm glad they were able to find a better class of people for the children to swim with.

[Mopar151]

38. Yup n/t

[BlueJazz]

36. Boy oh Boy...just when a lot of people think that "Just maybe....just maybe, Blacks and..

...other Minorities are starting to get a fair break in life" ..This Bullshit crops up.

Fuck!! :mad:

[Geoff R. Casavant]

41. As much as I hate the owners of the first pool

If the pool is truly private, then they have a right to decide who can use it, however odious their decision may be to those of us with working cerebra.

And I think the best remedy is not a lawsuit, but frequent and loud denunciation.

Bravo Girard College!

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Their ads make them liable

Went to dinner just last night with a friend who is an attorney. He said the minute this private club advertised to rent out their pool they had to abide by anti-discrimination laws. And I saw a big sign on the fence surrounding the club. My friend said he would be surprised if this day camp hasn't already been contacted by dozens of attorneys.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

56. Civil rights law is not my strong point, but

your post makes me very happy indeed.

[TygrBright]

59. It is NOT "private" in the legal sense if they are advertising it available to rent to the public.

Once they started advertising it as available for rent to non-members, they are effectively offering a 'public' accommodation, and as such, they cannot discriminate.

This folly has opened them up to a world of hurt financially and with regards to public relations and perception.

I can't feel too sorry for them about that, though. Even if their initial intentions were not, strictly speaking, racist, they clearly failed to do their homework and follow through all the implications of their initial decision to make money by renting out the pool. You would think a 'private club' of this nature would have an attorney or two on the board who might point out the possible problems that could arise from offering the club's facilities as a public accommodation.

Either racist or dumb as a stump or both. In none of those cases do I find it easy to make apologies for them or feel sympathy for them.

dismissively,
Bright

[Wizard777]

86. "Open for Membership" you still have to qualify for membership.

[TygrBright]

87. Not to rent the pool.

Once they advertised that the pool was for rent to non-members, that pool becomes a public accommodation and they have no right to discriminate.

There are plenty of gray areas around the concept of public vs. private and the line between limiting membership based on legitimate private criteria and limiting membership based on illegal discriminatory criteria.

But once a service or accommodation is advertised as available to anyone who can pay for it regardless of their membership status in the club, they have made that service or accommodation public, and there is no longer a gray area.

adamantly,
Bright

[Wizard777]

93. They rescinded the contract and the refunded membership fee provides Status Quo Ante.

[Hansel]

117. Did they rescind the contract and refund the fees of all non-members?

If not, it is discrimination. There's no way around it.

[Wizard777]

124. I don't disagree with you on that.

[BumRushDaShow]

47. Philadelphia Inquirer story

with more info:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20090709_Montco_swim_club_accused_of_racial_discrimination.html

[wisteria]

58. This posted article is nothing new. It just repeats what was in the original article and only

article posted on this issue. We still do not know the other side of this story. It may well be that there were insurance issues involved with a private swim club having 65 children at one time us the facilities.
And, this comment by Specter says a lot,
"The allegations against the swim club as they are reported are extremely disturbing,"
As they are reported! We all know that newspapers and the media don't always report things correctly.

I am happy these kids will have a place to swim once the insurance and logistics are worked out. But, maybe just maybe, that was the real situation with the private swim club-minus a few racist members whom the swim club had no control over. I question the comments that are attributed to the director of the pool as there is no entire comment- just bits and pieces and I can't imagine a business person making such outrageous comments. I would like for someone to post the entire response from Valley Pool.
Ultimately, it appears the children and the camp may have a happy ending.

[BumRushDaShow]

71. See link to article in Post #47

A bit more info.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Watch the news videos

The club manager makes an ass of himself.

This is pretty straight forward to me. A private club advertised to rent out its pool and the members complained when a bunch of black kids showed up to swim. It's against several federal laws to advertise for customers and then exclude them because their complexion doesn't fit into your business.

This club is toast after paying off the lawsuits these children have every right to file. And I don't have a problem with that. They are racist fools.

[Blasphemer]

123. Yep - seems pretty straight forward to me too.... nt

[rucky]

64. 2 Americas

One is much friendlier.

[Ken Burch]

67. Can we please, FINALLY, get rid of the "private club" exemptions to the Civil Rights Act?

There's no excuse, in this day and age, for anyone to be allowed to do what the club did to these kids(my thanks to Girard College for growing a soul, btw). And you still hear about shit like this happening at places down south. Can't we finally end this?

[Cha]

75. I just knew when I read this story yesterday

that something would turn out for the campers at Creative Steps Day Camp from Philly who had paid the money to The Valley Swim Club..only to be turned away for their "complexion".

And, what a sense of history it has with Girard College stepping in to offer their pool to the kids.

Thanks for the update, BRDS.

[Ian David]

81. Someone posted that Drudge says the swim club owner is an Obama supporter. n/t

[nc4bo]

104. Well if that's the case than NIMBY comes to mind on that one. Still a bigot. nt

[No Elephants]

110. Maybe Rendell had something to do with that. Besides, what is Drudge's point?

[TomClash]

88. "Change the complexion and atmosphere?"

It leaves you with an impression of pasty white kids having no fun at all. Ugh.

Without diversity what's the point of living?

[TrogL]

133. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a monumentally bad choice of words

(even if couched in a huge Freudian slip).

I have a vision of the day-to-day activity at the pool being a couple of rich fat plasty-white guys floating around, a few Speedo-clad (hey, I can dream, can't I) hunks swimming laps in front of some leggy blondes in string bikinis sipping weak martinis when suddenly the gates burst open revealing a horde of kids screaming CANNNOONNBAAAAAAALLLLL charging a pool that hadn't seen a proper wave since ground broke.

Yeah, that's gonna be a change in atmosphere.

[northzax]

145. yeah, I agree with that

but then, why did the pool agree to contract with a group of kids?

[mother earth]

89. The irony you point out is HUGE. Maybe you ought to help

MSM out with lessons on investigative reporting, an incredibly important factor and the beauty of a full circle story...for that to be left out is simply sloppy journalism at best.

[BlooInBloo]

134. Good for them!

[LynneSin]

137. If people knew the history of Girard College it really adds to the story

That there is hope that a racist organization, like how Girard college was ages ago - they too can change!

[BumRushDaShow]

140. And something even more heartening that I just found out about Girard

from http://blacknewsglobal.com/news/index.php/20090325551/North-America/Prestigious-Girard-College-Names-First-Black-Female-President.html">here

Prestigious Girard College Names First Black Female President
Wednesday, 25 March 2009

Prestigious Girard College in Fairmount, Pennsylvania last week made history by selecting Autumn Adkins as the first Black female president in the school’s 160 year history. The private school was founded by 19th century merchant Stephen Girard to educate poor, white, orphan boys. If you are from the Civil Rights Movement generation, you may remember it took two U.S. Supreme Court decisions and seven months of protest to force the integration of the boarding school in 1965. It took another lawsuit to bring about the admission of girls in 1984. The 36-year-old Adkins is currently assistant principal at Friends Seminary - a Quaker school in New York City.


Source: Taylor Media Services - www.freewebs.com/blacknewsjournal/

:applause:

[BumRushDaShow]

138. UPDATE from the Huntington Valley Club web page

They took their website down and replaced it with the below (from here: http://www.thevalleyclub.com/)

The Valley Club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism which are completely untrue.

We had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. All funds were returned to the camps and we will re-evaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future.

Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board.

Apparently there were supposed to be local protests at the facility earlier this afternoon.

[Ed76638]

142. ROTFL

That statement fails so hard. They clearly had no problem with 65 children using their facilities until they found out they were black.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. Bingo

[BumRushDaShow]

146. Here's a picture of the pool for sizing purposes

http://www.kyw1060.com/Demonstration-Outside-Swim-Club-Accused-of-Racism/4772901

(note the size of the out-buildings for reference)

[nc4bo]

147. Obviously the size of the pool isn't a factor.

Plenty of room in there, that's a huge pool.

No excuses there.

[BumRushDaShow]

155. And now KYW has pulled the photo of the pool

Wonder why, eh? Wouldn't fit the talking point excuse that was given? Collusion by the media too? :rofl:

Here it is from another site (http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/racism-charges-on-valley-swimming-club_100215771.html):

[nc4bo]

157. I saved the original here

So I wonder which pool is the real pool, eh? The original looked like an aerial shot from a helicopter.

Just wow.

[BumRushDaShow]

159. Good and bravo!

:applause:

I expect that picture would have been from the KYW Channel 3 TV helicopter then. All of the local channels have them buzzing around.

Edit to note that if you look at both pictures, you will see a similar cluster of trees visible from above and on the ground level.

[mbperrin]

156. Nope, you can't fix stupid! But you can take all its money away, ridicule it,

beat it about the head and shoulders and see if that helps!

I've got to believe a Philadelphia lawyer is even now preparing to go to court on this.

I hope the dumbass who made the complexion remark is a little paler now at the reaction to his organization's racist stupidity!

[No Elephants]

173. Saw a film clip this am of the kids swimming in the new pool. "Concerned" DUers

from the original thread may be relieved to know that the noise level was no louder than that of a pool full of "surburban" kids and every kid I saw had on a bathing suit, as opposed to his or her undies.

I trust that DUers who, for reasons best known to them, leapt to pull stuff out of their ears in an attempt to conjure up a race neutral excuse for the conduct of the club owner can now rest easy.

Meanwhile, said club owner has not come up with any race neutral excuse for his own conduct, even as talk of a lawsuit circulates.

[BumRushDaShow]

193. More updates as the club continues to dig deeper into their hole

from: http://cbs3.com/topstories/Valley.Swim.Club.2.1081653.html

"They turned our club from a safe swim club into an unsafe swim club because of the sheer number of children in our shallow section who are basically unable to swim."

This about a group of kids who already "swim" at a different indoor facility other days of the week. Yet they fall back to the comfort of invoking the old "non-buoyant negro" stereotype. :rofl:

This article has more of what went on and what the kids were exposed to. Keep on digging Valley Club because you are pathetic. :eyes:

[nc4bo]

194. Hmmm

65 kids swimming in THIS pool would seem almost overcrowded:



BUT

65 kids swimming in THIS pool seems very reasonable:



------------
Perception changes the size of the pool.

Perception of racist behavior is, most of the time, all we have. It's been awhile since I last heard of a cross burning or lynching. Unless you count nooses hanging from trees or in locker rooms or KKK pamphlets dumped on neighborhood sidewalks. In that case, who the hell needs to perceive a damn thing when it's so blatantly obvious.

[BumRushDaShow]

195. And another bingo!

:thumbsup:

[Wizard777]

197. I'm not sure who's racism is showing in this post.

Here in Maryland we have an old quarry that filled up with water. It's now the Savage Mill Swim Club. I don't care if your Mike Phelps walking in there. As far as they are concerned you cannot or do not know how to swim until you have proven it to one of the life guards by passing a swimming test. If you do not pass you must stay in the shallow area. So you may be reading more into that than what is REALLY meant. If they use this exact same safety system. The only racism showing is YOURS.

[BumRushDaShow]

199. What does the practices of a MD. club have to do with this?

See post #198 and my mention of "bait and switch".

The problem here is that rather them originally saying - "We have a maximum capacity for the number of children in the pool during a swim period, but maybe we can work something out to rotate groups", etc., they said NOTHING, and told the group to leave when they were done, AFTER some of their other members complained.

Then when pushed for a reason, they came up with the jaw-dropping loaded statement about how these children would "change the complexion and atmosphere" of the pool. Note that the term "complexion" is NOT synonymous with "too many children".

It wasn't until the crap hit the fan that they suddenly "found" what they thought would be a plausible reason for the rejection. "Too many 'non-swimming' (queue the "negroes are not buoyant" stereotype) 'inner-city' (code word = "negro", "slum", "ghetto", "jungle", "ape", "criminals") children" (despite the fact that these kids are currently "swimming" just fine at another pool during different days of the week).

Their dipping and dodging to find some excuse is laughable and your continued support of them to the bitter end is laudable.

The interesting irony is that the Frankford neighborhood that hosts this day camp is, and has always been traditionally, a working class white neighborhood (it's still almost 60% white), and one can easily put 2+2 together to see what happened here when the kids actually showed up.

[Wizard777]

200. What I'm saying is that it could be a standard practice of swim clubs.

Usually due to insurance regulations. I'm not supporting them. But I am keeping an open mind about it. I will assume innocence until I see real proof of guilt. If this was truly an actionable act of racism. The defenses I have offered will quickly and easily be shot down with real evidence. Not supposition, innuendo and reading into statement sentiment that may not have been actually intended. Are there racists in the club? Probably. Does that make the entire club racist? Not necessarily. I can remember when there were some Jerks at the Savage Mill Swim Club that used to say, this place is getting more Savage every year. Savage Mill Swim Club was not a racist club. Just like any other group they had their fair share of jerks. I'm also not willing to judge the whole group by a few jerks. That's another mechanism Racism relies on. That and peoples inclination to always believe the worst about others with little or no real proof of the accusations against them.

[BumRushDaShow]

201. The problem is perception

and that is one of the most powerful psychological and sociological concepts that applies. And as a concept, it lies at the heart of why we are in such a sorry state of affairs in this country around the "-isms".

No one here has painted "all" at this facility as "racist". However the power structure (manager and board) have now handled this incident in a manner that is perceived as "racist". The sudden cancellation with no initial reason, then when asked why, the blurted-out justification being something perceived as using racially-coded terms ("change the 'complexion'"). And finally, the coup de grace "new" reason being "capacity".... And this from a club that has supposedly been around for 55 years, so they should have been there, done that with respect to "capacity" issues and dealing with that before taking someone's money... Yet they suddenly "remembered" (perceived as "concocted") the capacity issue as a "problem". And even with that reason (not unlike the SNL John Lovitz pathological liar character "Tommy Flanaghan" and his "Yeah, THAT'S the ticket!" exhortation when he came up with a good lie), they latched onto it and built on it with more racially-coded language, to then back-hand these children as being "non-swimming" (an old old stereotype that goes back to slavery and was recently revived in a racist diatribe published in 1969), despite the fact that these kids were already "swimming" at another facility on other days of the week. As the snowball they built continued to grow, they suddenly remembered that that they had turned away 2 other groups, but without mentioning the size of those groups in comparison, to at least try to deflect the charges that were growing against them. Their answer to that? "...we don't want to give out their names 'because enough damage had been done". Of course the upcoming investigation will hopefully delve into that issue because for all we know, those groups may have had upwards of 100 children or may have wanted to come multiple days of the week, something that they could not accommodate. And if that were the case, then they stand on shaky ground.

IMHO, the club saw the location of the day camp as "Frankford" (read: a neighborhood that is almost 60% white) and what they got was not what was expected. So they did their own "switch", because it obviously bugged out their other members. There has always been a running commentary in the black community that when your % goes above 20%, you become a "threat".

I'm sorry but for me and others, they don't get a pass. The fact that they were so taken aback by these kids and the pressure from some of their racist members, that they couldn't even recover enough to nonchalantly say something as simple as "we don't have enough lifeguards" when initially asked why, means that they are idiots and FAIL. In fact, their behavior is an EPIC FAIL.

Myself, having continually experienced the smooth-as-silk "northern racism", consider these folks as rank amateurs. :rofl:

[Karenina]

202. Bada-bing, bada-BOOM!

:thumbsup: That 20% figure is KEY! ;-)

[Wizard777]

203. I read an interview with one of the other groups they refunded the membership of.

They don't feel it was done for reasons of racism. It's also not an all white club. They have a diverse membership. But this is a great dodge to keep the heat off the local government that shut down the public pools they normally swim at. Right now the only thing I can honestly say is they are guilty of not being good at PR. In the court of public opinion that can carry the death penalty. My God, just look at the lynch mob forming here.

[BumRushDaShow]

205. In this case, in previous years, they swam at a local Y

so the city pools did not come into play. And the fact that they were willing to pay for access makes any "free" public pool irrelevent.

Unfortunately what did come into play was that they exceeded the max ratio.

[Devil_Fish]

207. he means the complexion of the water.... from blue to yellow. NT