Washington's Plan B ruling overturned

[Swede]

Source: The Olympian

A federal judge overreached when he sided with religious-freedom arguments to block Washington state’s rules mandating the sale of “morning-after” birth control, appeals judges said Wednesday.

The unanimous ruling, from a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, sends the politically thorny case back to U.S. District Court for further review.


The case revolves around the drug Plan B, a contraceptive that can greatly reduce the chances of pregnancy if taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex.


Read more: http://www.theolympian.com/southsound/story/905554.html

[ananda]

1. What the fuck does "further review" mean?

Do the women of Washington state get universal access
to birth control or not?

[merwin]

2. It means they believe the lower court fucked up the decision but either don't

want to spend the time on the decision or don't want to set a precedent. I believe the next lower court ruling will still be able to be appealed again.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. Read the last four paragraphs

of the linked article, and your answer is there........

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I think the pharmacists' argument that this is a religious freedom thing

is flawed. No one forced them to become pharmacists. It would be like a Muslim buying a liquor store and then refusing to sell liquor on religious grounds--everyone would laugh at the very notion. Only pharmacies dispense life changing medications that are often vital to a patient's well-being. They should not be able to pick and choose which drugs they dispense--unless they have MD after their name and the patient in question is theirs.

[Hepburn]

5. I have to totally agree with the idea that if one chooses a certain profession,

one is aware of the necessary actions and areas which are covered.

Don't wanna dispense certain meds???

Skip the following professions at a minimum:

Nurse
Doctor
Pharmacist

:shrug: Not a hard thing to think through, right?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. I doubt seriously if you'll find many

Christian Scientist MDs. So too bad those pharmacists didn't think things through before they got their degrees and licenses.

[customerserviceguy]

9. If you choose to hang out your shingle as a plastic surgeon

does that obligate you to perform boob jobs on trophy wives?

[customerserviceguy]

8. Poor analogy

It's absurd to think that a devout Muslim would buy a liquor store in the first place.

This ruling goes to what drugs that drugstore owners carry. It's the equivalent of forcing halal and kosher butchers to carry bacon to sell to me.

This is asking for a SCOTUS decision, and at this point in time, the people here who believe in forcing others to accept their notions about who is human and who is not should expect to be sorely disappointed.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. yours is a better analogy

however I still contend that the difference is that what druggists dispense can mean the difference how a person lives--or dies.

[customerserviceguy]

11. That's true

but Plan B is not one of those drugs. The pharmacists I've known (including my Uncle Joe, who stormed the beach at Normandy) are more than honored to carry the drugs that give life. He's still practicing pharmacy one day a week, and his Catholic conscience would never let him dispense any drug that he thought terminated human life.

Why not allow him the freedom that he risked his life to protect for all of us?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Why not allow a woman who has been raped the freedom

to not have to carry the child of her rapist? Or a woman who has gotten pregnant and cannot afford to support the child terminate the pregnancy? Until I see every Catholic willing to step up and offer to adopt such children and see to it that the woman is paid for her medical needs/time off from work during the pregnancy, I'm sorry, but they are practicing hypocrisy. They are not really interesting in preserving life--they are merely interested in foisting their belief system upon others.

I work in a clinic where some patients are rape victims--if you don't think terminating a pregnancy that is the result of rape isn't a matter of life and death--you need to talk to some of these poor women.

[customerserviceguy]

18. There's no question

that rape relief centers and such departments of ER's should have the pharmaceuticals they need to deal with this. Why should that impact private businesses that don't wish to get into that line of work? A pharmacist behind a counter in his or her own private drugstore is not equipped or trained to deal with rape cases.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Evading the question, imho

because in rural areas, like where I live, the pharmacy is the closest place to go. The nearest hospital is a long ways away. Rape relief centers? You've got to be kidding. Of course, around here there are doctors who refuse to treat patients whose lifestyles are "against their religion", as well as pharmacies. So I've seen what this sort of discrimination can lead to.

[EndersDame]

39. I can just see a rape victim driving all over town to find plan b

And just FYI Plan b does not terminate a pregnancy it first tries prevents an a sperm from going into an egg and if that is too late it prevents an egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus

[Quantess]

45. Well, then she could resort to "plan C".... a surgical abortion at 6 to 8 weeks

These busybodies think they are so clever by restricting access to birth control.

[EndersDame]

46. I think that deep down most "pro lifers"

are more for controlling a woman's behavior than "pro life"

[customerserviceguy]

58. Then let someone who thinks this is a possibility stockpile the drug

from sources that do not have to be forced to carry it, but are more than willing to because they share the moral belief system of the person who would use it.

[Tansy_Gold]

14. Plan B is a medically approved drug.

It is prescribed by the physician who is treating the patient.

The pharmacist has no right to interpose him/herself and his/her religious beliefs between the patient and the doctor.

The analogy of the kosher butcher shop is flawed. A kosher butcher shop is not the same as a butcher shop. It sells, and is recognized as selling, a very specific product. The very nature of that business precludes its selling pork chops. The very nature of a pharmacy, licensed by the state, is that it carries and dispenses those medications that are prescribed by doctors. It is not by its nature an agency of a religious group the way a kosher butcher shop is.

If someone wants to open up a "Christian" pharmacy and make it clear that it will not fill prescriptions for birth control pills or Plan B or anything else that violates the church's doctrine, then fine. Do so. See if it can get licensed.

Until then, a pharmacist has no right to force his/her religious beliefs on anyone else through the licensed practice of his profession.

JMHO



Tansy Gold

[customerserviceguy]

19. Cigarettes are a legal product, as well

and since hundreds of thousands of convenience stores sell them, they all should, right? Same logic.

By the way, kosher and halal butchers are not agencies of their respective faith traditions. They exist to serve the markets that those religious belief systems have provided customers for. Many pharmacists in rural areas see themselves in the same light in their communities.

Tell them what they have to sell, and they'll shut down. The consumers in the areas who are inconvenienced by this will know who to blame, and it won't be the pharmacist who they know and trust.

President Obama is smart enough to know that he needs to put in a pretty strong conscience clause in legislation on this issue. He sure doesn't want millions of people blaming him for their local hospital closing down because of what they are forced to do that they'd rather not.

[Tansy_Gold]

23. No, completely wrong

Kosher and Halal butchers very much are agents of their faiths. They abide by the tenets of their faiths and operate within that doctrine. Althoough others not of that faith may shop there, there is no connection to the greater marketplace outside the faith.

A pharmacy serves the entire population, not connected to any faith. It is regulated by the government, and last I heard we were still trying to promote a separation between church and state.

If a pharmacist cannot, for reasons of his/her personal faith, fulfill the duties of her/his job, then he/she should lose his/her license. No pharmacy should be allowed to pick and choose which drugs it will distribute and or to whom.


TG

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. Again, loud applause and cheers

Just the other day, our clinic took on a patient that was denied medical care by another physician because that physician disapproved of the patient's lifestyle on religious grounds. Luckily, we were around to take up the slack. But it is a great inconvenience for the patient to get out to our rural clinic, because she has no transportation of her own.

I'm mentioning this only to show that the problem isn't only with pharmacists.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. Loud applause

I live in a rural area, not close to any hospital. Rape crisis centers are non-existent. And there is only one pharmacy.

[customerserviceguy]

28. So you like having the neighborhood Walgreens as your rape crisis center?

In between all the people filling prescriptions for blood pressure medications and flu remedies, that fourteen-year old girl who is getting raped by her mother's shitheel boyfriend is going to get the help she needs to get out of that situation by a busy pharmacist?

It's more likely that this scenario is going to enable him to keep abusing her, with no one caring about locking the pervert up.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. You missed the point

in my neck of the woods there IS no neighborhood Walgreens NO rape crisis center. Just some country doctors who would prescribe the Plan B as needed--to the ONLY pharmacy around. Have you got the picture yet?

[customerserviceguy]

30. How about putting the Plan B drugs in the hands of those doctors?

Doctors who do emergency treatments have all sorts of regulated substances at their disposal to use without having to go through the pharmacy system. Why shouldn't this be one of them, instead of adding the pharmacist to the list of people involved?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. because rural doctors cannot have everything

Most aren't wealthy, and don't have the facilities to stock drugs that can be obtained at a pharmacy. How about pharmacists being required to dispense all legal drugs?

[customerserviceguy]

35. So, rural pharmacists are richer than rural doctors?

Not buying it.

Discussion with you on this seems to be futile, you are one of those here who simply will not be happy until every doctor has performed an abortion, and every pharmacist has dispensed a Plan B prescription, no matter what their beliefs are.

That's not what freedom looks like to most people, and I really thought my fellow progressives understood that. Our society has seen fit to carve out exceptions for morally-based reservations for everything from consciencious objectors in wartime, to exemptions from Social Security taxes for Amish farmers. The people who are on the other side of you in this debate will be able to successfully paint themselves with the same sort of American tolerance for religious differences that has usually won out in our history. I'm glad President Obama is smart enough to realize this.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. You have missed my point entirely

No, I will not "be happy until every doctor has performed an abortion". That is not where I am coming from at all! I will be happy when every woman is allowed to make a choice as to what happens to her body! I will be happy when everyone decides that that woman's choice is between her and her doctor, and no one else has a right to interfere.

In the perfect world, there would be no need for abortions because all women would be respected--none would be raped or abused by family members. In a perfect world, there would be no need for abortions because all teenagers would be given sensible sex education, and would have access to birth control methods and would use them. In a perfect world, there would be no need for abortions because all women would be given the emotional and economic support they need to raise a family.

Until this happens, woman must have access to all avenues of health care.

The reason I am so against allowing people to opt out of filing prescriptions or giving treatment based on religious beliefs is that it won't stop at abortion. A good Catholic may, for example, decide that no birth control devices should be sold. A fundamentalist Protestant doctor may decide, based on religious belief, that they don't have to treat a homosexual or transgender person. Next it could be no treatment or prescriptions filled based on race--hey, in the 1950s and before, ministers instilled in their flocks that the races should be kept separate, and lifesaving treatment was denied blacks who were involved in automobile accidents.

[customerserviceguy]

48. I'll be sure to use your argument

when I seek to compel a newspaper to publish any "Letter to the Editor" I send.

The point that you're missing is that just because one person has a Constitutional right, that does not automatically compel everyone to provide the means to excercise that right to every person desiring it, if providing the means for that right is outside of government, such as in the case of criminal rights and the police.

Maybe you think that the granting of a license to practice medicine or pharmacy makes the grantees into agents of the state. My doctor can choose to treat me or refuse me as she sees fit.

[Missy Vixen]

44. They are in our town

I live in a town of 5600. The local doctor certainly isn't getting rich.

The local pharmacist? When you're the only independent pharmacist, people see you sooner than later. I might also add that the pharmacist is a Republican, but she stocks and dispenses the Plan B pill. It's one of the reasons why our family continues to use her services.

[EndersDame]

41. You do not need a perscription for Plan B so if a rape victim does not want to be poked and prodded

a by doctor they dhouldn't have to be. Yes they should be examined but some are not ready within the 72 hours that they can prevent a pregnancy .

[customerserviceguy]

49. Well, by definition

a rape victim has already been poked and prodded, at the very least. You like the idea of just a quiet trip to the pharmacist to deal with what is a crime?

[Justitia]

62. OMFG! I don't even know what to say to this!

Your comments in this thread already led me to believe you are a misogynist, but damn!, this one takes the cake!

:wow:

[LeftyMom]

63. What the fuck is the matter with you?

A woman is entitled to health care whether she chooses to report a rape or not. Keep in mind that most rapes are unreported, for the very good reason that vulnerable women are often terrified of turning themselves over to the tender mercies of people like you.

[spotbird]

68. It's not about like,

But, yes, if that's the best she can do, it's fine with me.

[EndersDame]

40. You do not need a perscription for Plan B

it is a benign drug.

[Zhade]

16. Because he doesn't have the right. If he can't do the job, he should get another one.

He isn't a doctor. He doesn't get to choose what people take. PERIOD.

[customerserviceguy]

20. At his age, he's still lucky that he's sharp enough to do this one

As I said, he was one of the eighteen year olds who stormed the beach at Normandy. And if he had gotten shot up (but not killed), he would have been cared for by people our government allowed to be consciencious objectors to killing Nazis.

If this country could respect the rights of people who didn't even feel that stopping Hitler was a worthy cause to kill for, why does it not allow people in the various medical professions that same right?

[Zhade]

34. I don't give a fuck what he did, trying to impose HIS beliefs on others IS NOT HIS RIGHT!

This is non-negotiable.

[customerserviceguy]

36. And when doctors and pharmacies close their practices

and hospitals close their doors over a refusal to perform abortions because there is no conscience clause, we'll see who makes the better case about who's forcing their beliefs on others.

President Obama is fortunately intelligent enough not to waste political capital on politicized drugs and procedures.

[spotbird]

66. A pharmacist is licensed by the state

That license comes with rights and duties. A pharmacist accepts those responsibilities when he accepts the privilege to practice, it's a packaged deal.

[The Magistrate]

17. Your 'Uncle Joe', Sir, Has No Right To Force Others To Comply With His Beliefs

That is what you are claiming for him, and for the rest of these zealots.

[customerserviceguy]

21. He's not forcing anyone to do anything

He just wouldn't want to be forced to do something against his beliefs. He's no longer in his own private drugstore, but he works for a Catholic hospital that probably does not carry these drugs. That's how he's made his choice of what to associate himself with.

Zealots? Just wait until the vegans start to take over, you'll see zealots when it comes to telling people what they can have and not have.

[The Magistrate]

26. Nonesense, Sir

By not filling a prescription of this nature, he is forcing another person to abide by his beliefs on the subject. You are claiming he has that right. He does not. For that matter, the hospital in question does not either. People brought in in trauma situations do not exercise choice of facilities; thus the hospital is a public accommodation, and has no right to impose a particular religious belief, even if it is a religious institution. Free exercise of religion does not extend nearly that far in a free society.

[customerserviceguy]

27. Like I said

he hasn't forced his beliefs on anyone since he was with the US Army kicking the Nazi's asses out of France.

President Obama seems wise enough not to cause a showdown with a WWII vet who would be forced to leave his profession over a philosophical difference over one or two drugs out of the tens of thousands that my uncle has dispensed over his career that have unequivocably saved human lives. I'm glad he's onboard with a conscience clause, we have far more important battles to fight than getting people who have anti-abortion views to either perform them or be fired over it.

[spotbird]

69. If a doctor in a rural area

had a "philosophical difference" with blood tran fusions, do you believe he should be permitted to be the sole practitioner in the area?

[EndersDame]

43. Plan B does not terminate human life any moreso than birthcontrol

From their website http://www.go2planb.com/plan-b-faq.aspx
2. How does Plan B® work?

Plan B® contains two pills taken 12 hours apart that contain a higher dose of levonorgestrel, a hormone found in many birth control pills that healthcare professionals have been prescribing for more than 35 years. Plan B® works in a similar way to prevent pregnancy. Plan B® will not affect an existing pregnancy.


and further down

Plan B® should not be used:

* If you're already pregnant, because it won't work
* If you're allergic to levonorgestrel or any of the ingredients in Plan B®
* In place of regular birth control. Plan B® should not be used as routine birth control, as it's not as effective. Plan B® won't protect you from HIV infection (the virus that causes AIDS) and any other sexually transmitted disease (STD).

[customerserviceguy]

50. That's the opinion on a site that sells the stuff

I wouldn't believe anything the tobacco industry put out about the safety of cigarettes, either. There simply isn't enough knowledge as to how it works exactly.

In any case, I wouldn't compel a pharmacist with his or her own independent shop to sell anything they were morally opposed to.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. It's not a question of how it works. It's a question of when

someone decides that a pregnancy begins. Most medical authorities will pace that at implantation, I believe. Those opposed to contraception (emergency or otherwise) will claim it's at the moment that sperm and egg meet. Of course, that means that an untold number of spontaneous abortions happens every day, as many fertilized eggs will never implant, and thus a pregnancy will never continue...

[customerserviceguy]

57. And those spontaneous abortions

don't involve anyone actively 'doing' anything. They have zero moral consequences, regardless of one's belief about when personhood begins.

We're responsible for the choices we make, not for the "shit happens". I feel that the drug store owner who chooses not to carry whatever, be it Plan B, birth control pills, condoms, cigarettes, alcohol, or skin magazines for whatever that business owner deems to be his moral values should not be forced to stock or sell anything in contravention of those values.

[spotbird]

67. He should also not enjoy the

privilege to dispense prescription drugs. He can open a carry-out with doesn't stock any of those things, but not a pharmacy licensed by the state.

[EndersDame]

64. There is enough knowledge Yay Science!

Plan B contains a high dosage of levonorgestrel which is a hormone found in birth control pills. A woman can still get pregnant if she does not take birth control pill regularly.If she starts up again it won't cause an abortion it just is not possible.

This is the from the FDA approved literature (not some biased skewed info but science! Yay Science! )
Plan b acts as an emergency contraceptive principally by preventing ovulation or fertilization
(by altering tubal transport of sperm and/or ova). In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by
altering the endometrium). It is not effective once the process of implantation has begun.
http://www.go2planb.com/pdf/PlanBPI.pdf

What they put on their website is part of the literature reviewed and required by the FDA which at the time it was released was probably biased against them. Tobacco companies even have to post that their product causes lung cancer and emphysema and strokes. Even though it is ridiculous to compare the two

Perhaps you are thinking of Mifeprex which is the Abortion pill you won't have to worry about
your uncle stocking because it can be dispensed only in a clinical setting.

[JerseygirlCT]

32. That only really works if bacon is necessary to your health or even life

And LOL, we know that's definitely not the case!

[customerserviceguy]

37. I'd hate to have to make the case

that abortion is necessary to life or health in the vast majority of cases. It's still seen as something related to convenience.

You think I'm "out there" on this? Just wait until we start having debates on what a public option health care plan will cover. My prediction is that in order to get either GOP or Blue Dog votes, abortion will be one of the things excluded from coverage.

[EndersDame]

42. Plan B = Prevention of pregnancy not abortion

get your facts straight

[JerseygirlCT]

47. I suppose that

the fact that abortion is far, far less dangerous to a woman's health than carrying a pregnancy carries no weight? Or that mental health is indeed part of health?

The other side seeks only to control women's reproduction, period. They've drawn up arguments like so much cloth to hide their naked aim. But it's all back-engineered.

[customerserviceguy]

51. There's a big difference

between trying to "control women's reproduction" and personally getting involved in the process.

I guess "keep your laws off my body" is only a one-way street?

[JerseygirlCT]

52. I'm not sure I get you

how exactly does anyone "get involved in the process"?

[customerserviceguy]

53. In the case of Plan B

there are the pharmacists who would choose not to carry this, that would either be forced to do so, or forced out of business. There clearly are providers who wish to make it available, why not have the people who would use it stock it in their homes, like anything else they think they'd need?

[JerseygirlCT]

55. Because the use of the drug, if properly prescribed (or legally made

available without prescription) is absolutely none of the pharmacist's business. The pharmacist isn't employed to make moral judgements concerning someone else's medical condition. This whole line of thinking is nonsense, and as I said, just poor covering over a rampant need to control women's bodies.

If someone has moral objections to performing their job, they need to find a new job. It's really that simple. And a pharmacist's job is to fill prescriptions, not to interfere with the choice of a woman in consultation with her doctor.

[customerserviceguy]

56. I'm all for keeping it completely away from the pharmacist's counters

Give it to the doctors that deal with rape trauma, let people get it from those willing to sell it, and hell, you can even de-prescriptionize it for all I care, that would totally get it out of the drugstores.

But I believe in the freedom to not sell the things you don't want to sell, if it's your own damned business. For whatever reason. Convenience store owners should be free not to sell cigarettes, grocery store owners should be free not to sell beer, private drugstores should be free not to sell condoms if the owner doesn't believe in them. Somebody else will fill that void. And if there are legal restrictions in the way of people who would provide them willingly, then remove those barriers.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. Convenience store owners, to my knowledge, aren't licensed by the state

to perform a job for which they've had medical training.

Someone ought not to pursue that training if they cannot perform the job.

Doctors are not nearly as available as the 24 hour pharmacy. Unfortunately, rape, trauma, even mistakes, happen at all hours of the day and night.

The Catholic hospitals here in CT tried to deny their obligation to provide rape victims with emergency contraception. (No surprise Lieberman supported them). They backed down after the state starting threatening legal action. I found their reasoning incredibly thoughtless and vicious. Their "right" not to provide care stops when they enter into the business of medical care. Once that happens, the patient is first.

If you are going to ask that the state license your right to perform as a pharmacist, you'd best be prepared to so perform, without discrimination. Pharmacists with their so-called moral objections are free to find a different line of work that will tax their morals less.

[customerserviceguy]

61. "Someone ought not to pursue that training if they cannot perform the job."

I'm willing to bet that about 95% of the pharmacists out there running their own shops pursued their training long before we had Plan B.

Stores of all sorts get licensed for all kinds of things. They have an obligation to sell to everyone who comes into their stores the things they have agreed to stock and sell, and they have no obligation to sell anything that they disagree with. That includes butcher shops that are regulated by county and state health organizations, even the ones that are kosher or halal, and will not sell me a ham sandwich.

You won't have to worry about the corner pharmacist for long, theirs is a dying profession. We have machines that will count the pills as they move from the big bottles to the little ones, and will keep really good track of drug interactions, as well. Wal-Mart's on your side here, too, anything that puts the little independent pharmacy out of business is good for them, too.

Tell me, does that state license affect what a plastic surgeon does? If I feel I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, does that obligate every plastic surgeon to perform sex-reassignment surgery on me?

[Lars39]

60. You do not seem to understand that they applied for, worked their asses off for,

and graduated just to sell legal prescriptions. This is what they chose to do. To fill all legal prescriptions. Not to hunt and peck and place judgement on those prescriptions or their customers who need those prescriptions.

[teknomanzer]

71. These are the issues that would be eliminated...

by a public health care system. No more privately owned dispensaries where some smug self-righteous fundamentalist wacko can force his or her mores on the general public. And no more bean counters deciding what treatment someone will get just so they can increase the returns on greedy investors trying to make a profit off of human misery. WELLNESS AND WELL-BEING SHOULD NOT BE PROFIT DRIVEN DAMN IT!

[JerseygirlCT]

31. Totally agree

The purpose of the medication is between doctor and patient. The pharmacist's job is to fill it, correctly. Perhaps to check for contraindications with other medications the patient is taking. Moral judgements are not part of the job. Someone else taking medication they don't approve of - that's just not in their purview. They get to make choices about what medications THEY are willing to take - not what medications they are willing to dispense. Dispense or get a different career.

[spotbird]

65. Or a Jehovah's Witness

working at a blood bank.

[frebrd]

6. K&R!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. This is appears to be a "shall carry" vice "shall dispense" and is going to be very interesting

and its not even close to being over legally. Consider the implications if the logic is broadly applied.

[Wednesdays]

15. K&R

:kick:

[ecstatic]

70. Uggh. so disgusted! Plan B is simply a high dose of birth control

that should be available no questions asked!! :mad: