New Evidence Surfaces in Post-Katrina Crimes

[sabra]

Source: The Nation

Television news reports are casting new light on the violence that flourished in New Orleans in the anarchic days after Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

The reports--broadcast Thursday by WTAE TV in Pittsburgh and WDSU in New Orleans--focus on two unsolved crimes: the near-fatal shooting of Donnell Herrington, who was allegedly attacked by a group of white vigilantes in the Algiers Point neighborhood, and the murder of Henry Glover, whose charred remains were discovered on a Mississippi River levee. Both victims are African American.

At the center of the news reports is a disturbing and grisly amateur video shot by a pair of private investigators in September 2005 and obtained recently by WTAE journalist Jim Parsons. (Full disclosure: This reporter was interviewed for the WTAE and WDSU stories.)

The private detectives, Mike Orsini and Istvan Balogh, are Pennsylvanians who traveled to New Orleans to volunteer in the wake of the storm. Orsini is a former police officer, while Balogh is an ex-corrections officer. They spent nearly two weeks camped out in Algiers Point, a middle class, largely white enclave nestled on the west bank of the Mississippi River.

On the video, a former Algiers Point resident talks calmly about shooting people. That man, Paul Gleeson claimed that he and his fellow gunmen shot 38 people and said that the victims were looters. Asked if any of the shooting victims died, Gleeson replied, "Who cares? I don't (expletive) know. Who cares? What does it (expletive) matter?" The Algiers Point shootings, which have prompted an intensifying civil rights probe by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, were exposed late last year in stories published by The Nation and ProPublica. While the neighborhood gunmen say that they were simply defending the community against thieves, other witnesses say that the group targeted black men and spewed racial epithets.

Read more: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090720/thompson

[bertman]

1. I'd like to see the authorities follow up on this. Having in-laws in NOLA who witnessed some of

this stuff and having heard some of the stories, I'm hoping we can find out what actually happened in some of these incidents.

Recommend.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Let the race for any theoretically possible explanation that isn't racism begin!

[sakabatou]

3. How about this other crime:

* waiting x-number of days before allowing help to arrive.

[KeepItReal]

8. And the crime of not allowing people to walk across a perfectly fine bridge to safer West Bank

GRETNA, La. (AP) — Two state legislators have filed a federal lawsuit against the city of Gretna and its police department over an Aug. 31 confrontation during which officers turned back evacuees from flooded New Orleans after they crossed over on a Mississippi River bridge.

In the suit, Sen. Cleo Fields, D-Baton Rouge, and Rep. Cedric Richmond, D-New Orleans, said officers used "unreasonable, unnecessary and excessive force while refusing plaintiffs to travel through" the city, violating their rights.

Gretna Mayor Ronnie Harris and Police Chief Arthur Lawson have defended the action as a protective measure during a desperate crisis. Harris said Tuesday that the city "stands by its actions, and we will take the appropriate legal action necessary for its defense."

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20060105104213618

[DeltaLitProf]

13. Not for nothing but . . .

Gretna is where this White Supremacist publishing company called Pelican Press has its headquarters.

[Hoyt]

77. One reason people stayed in New Orleans.

I've often felt that the reasons a lot of folks stayed in New Orleans -- little money, no car, no place to stay (all the motels for hundreds of miles were full), desire to protect whatever they had, and fear of those in the wilds of Louisiana who would shoot many for merely sleeping in a parking lot. If I had been there, I would have tried to ride it out too with those impediments. The response to Katrina is the second saddest story of bush's admin.

[Tim01]

27. Me and a bunch of guys from a gun forum were organizing.

We were going to be ready to leave in a number of hours.
We were assembling 4x4 trucks, chainsaws, jacks, winches, boats, fuel, food and water. All of our own stuff. We were just going to drive down and give it to who ever needed it. We figured the authorities could really use the small boats and fuel.
We were told we would not be allowed to approach anywhere near the area no matter what, and basically our help was not wanted.

I can't imagine how many small groups just like ours were ready to deliver supplies but were not allowed.

If they had allowed us all to help it would have been a bit of a cluster fuck but supplies would have been flowing in on hundreds of tiny paths until the authorities got a handle on it.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geckosfeet]

34. Or fewer - what if the supply run was planned by black people? And they were

trained to use firearms as well as in disaster relief?

Fact is, most people licensed to carry in one state, will not legally be allowed to cary in another state without going through that states licensing procedure.

A law abiding gun owner knows this and is not likely to knowingly break the law.

[Tim01]

38. Well that sums it up doesn't it. What is wrong with you?

We we were willing to spend our own time effort and money. Take time off work, leave our families. Put ourselves in a dangerous situation to help people we don't and will never see again. Who are hundreds or thousands of miles away.

And you don't like us because we are gun guys.


I am so utterly unsurprised.

[DBoon]

61. How do you know the "guys from the guns forum" weren't Black?

Now THAT would really scare some people down there.

[DesertDiamond]

32. You weren't let in for the same reason Rumsfeld didn't send the helicopters that were standing by...

Whatever reason that could possibly have been. Apparently it was some sort of a plan, Rumsfelds plan? That those who were supposed to facilitate aid to Katrina victims prevented it instead.

One thing clear, Rumsfeld is owned by his fundamental darkness. The more I know about the guy, the more it appears that he has his fingers in just about every toxic pie on this planet.

[Nay]

35. And for the same reason a Canadian jet with rescue personnel and

supplies wasn't let in. I was in Canada as Katrina hit, and it was in all the papers up there. No one could believe it. The Canadians finally landed in MS, I think, and started helping out there.

[crickets]

44. And for the same reason

that Loudoun County sheriff's deputies weren't allowed in.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051116190558/http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0905/256903.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20051212185959/http://www.thedeadpelican.com/lawyer.htm

and the Red Cross wasn't allowed in.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050905163448/http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20050924191051/http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

Outrageously evil people gave the order through "Homeland Security" and local authorities to turn help away. Unbelievable. It still boggles the mind.

[Strong Atheist]

64. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Fire1]

104. That was really gracious of you and your pals. Your hearts

were in the right place.:thumbsup:

[lies and propaganda]

90. no shit. BUSHCO should be behind bars

for a myriad of reasons.. but fucking Katrina?! televised before the entire dumb as shit nation that couldnt be bothered to give a shit.

the rage i have over Katrina will never subside until reparations are made for the victims of the 5 days and subsequent years after the storm

[wantoutnow]

4. the response to Katrina

was absolutely criminal.

[Strong Atheist]

48. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Fire1]

105. You mean, the 'LACK of response.' n/t

[Festivito]

5. How many died from bullet wounds and what type of bullet?

It took so many months to autopsy all those bodies that I'm sure they did a good job of finding the causes of deaths. That is unless the the Republicans who were in charge were completely corrupt rubes!

[destes]

11. "the Republicans who were in charge were completely....

...... corrupt rubes!" Absolutely the case. (Except for the incompetent ones.)

[Festivito]

22. Indeed. /nt

[uppityperson]

6. k&r for people speaking out

It would be surprising if there were not people who took advantage of the chaos to make chaos of their own

[SeattleGirl]

7. What happened in the aftermath of Katrina was a crime to the 10th

power.

There are so many things that were so fucking wrong in that whole situation, from start to end, and even now.

Despicable, the way many people in this country are treated!

[No Elephants]

9. "We prayed and prayed for God to do something about New Orleans, and He sent us Katrina."

Actual statement by a Louisiana woman.

New Orleans had people who were both African American and Democrats. For some Louisiana folk, that required lots of prayer.

[Ex Lurker]

17. it's no secret that New Orleans is not very popular within its own state

and a lot of it does have to do with race. Not all, but a lot of it.

[AlbertCat]

50. The Reputation of New Orleans

People can be so stupid!

Not popular in its own state? Fools! Like that stupid Repug Senator? Congressman? who said NOLA was just a den of iniquity and it should not be rebuilt. Just let it die.....because apparently he thinks NOLA is just a bunch of dive bars and jazz clubs.

Hello!!!!!


NOLA is only the 2ND LARGEST INTERNATIONAL PORT IN THE WORLD...as far as the amount of cargo that passes through it. (I believe Rotterdam is 1st)


Hey dumb bunny Repugs! Just because all you did in New Orleans is drink, do drugs and party with hookers does not mean that is all that goes on there. Morans!

[Ex Lurker]

81. besides race, it has a lot do do with the perception

of top to bottom corruption and as a sinkhole for state tax dollars. And I must say the perception is not undeserved. There's also a lot of history behind it. From colonial days well into the 20th century, NOLA held most of the political power, and used that power to its benefit and to the rest of the state's detriment. Not that I am discounting the racial angle at all, but there are other reasons too.

[pscot]

88. A lot of big towns

are unpopular in their own state. The rubes are afraid of everything from Blacks to tall buildings, and anything else that aint like 'Possum Hollow. Disclaimer: I grew up country, and I recognize that many rural and small town dwellers are sane and thoughtful human beings.

[unapatriciated]

116. not to mention some of the finest food and music in the world.

[DBoon]

63. praying for "ethnic cleansing"?

Their god should be tried for crimes against humanity

[chasitynola]

96. Katrina also

wiped many Mississippi churches off of their foundations. This is crap. Bay St. Louis took the direct hit.

[AnnieBW]

134. Yeah, but those churches got rebuilt

The ones in NOLA didn't.

[NOLALady]

97. An elected official said something similar.

"We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."
~Rep. Richard Baker (R-LA)

[davidpdx]

10. I remember hearing about this after Katrina, but never heard if anything was done about it

It's good someone is finally looking into this.

Here is a good video:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/20010941/index.html

[verdalaven]

12. What I find really disturbing.....

is his excuse for shooting people. As if he feels accusing his victims of theft should make it okay for him to shoot with the intent to kill.

[Ex Lurker]

14. let me ask you this

are you saying there is no right to use force against looters in the wake of a natural disaster when law and order breaks down? Please note that I am NOT saying the people in this neighborhood were justified in shooting. But your post implies that there is never a scenario when force is justified, unless I'm misreading your intent.

[slampoet]

15. No one has a right to deny people water and food or boats and shelter.

[Ex Lurker]

16. what if it's your water and food and they want to take it?

furthermore, what if they want to take all of it and leave you with none? Just asking the hypothetical question because I'm still curious where you stand on this.

[Chemisse]

20. Looters were stealing from abandoned stores.

If I recall correctly, most of the Katrina coverage in the first couple of days focused on looters, who were inevitably black. The story was - essentially - 'all hell breaks loose in New Orleans.' This was driven by the administration; Bush wanted to send people in to control looting, not to save anybody.


Sept. 1 (Bloomberg) -- About 24,000 National Guard members will be in Louisiana and Mississippi by the end of the week to combat looting and quell gunfire that disrupted the rescue of survivors of Hurricane Katrina.

U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said today at a news conference that 1,400 will go to New Orleans daily for the next three days, expanding a force of 3,000 that's trying to maintain order in a city flooded and left without power by the storm three days ago.

Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said National Guardsmen from Arkansas were prepared to use deadly force as they try to restore order in New Orleans, the Times-Picayune reported.

Blanco said at a news conference today that the guardsmen ``know how to shoot to kill ... and I expect they will,'' the New Orleans newspaper said.

Some rescue operations by the Federal Emergency Management Agency were suspended in areas where gunfire broke out, Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said in Washington, the Associated Press reported. People trying to board amphibious vehicles outside New Orleans's Charity Hospital were shot at while trying to evacuate, Cable News Network reported.

`You Loot, We Shoot'

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=axLmRQqK.K0U&refer=us


Then this dissipated when one story showed that a looter making off with a box of Pampers. Then people realized these people had no other options. Certainly stores were not open for business!

Then suddenly, we saw stories about the people suffering in New Orleans, and the rest is history.

I think Bush, et al, gave vigilantes a license to kill in those early days.

[lolly]

25. Well, were they "finders" or "looters?"

Remember the AP photos of white Katrina victims who "found" supplies in abandoned stores, while the black victims were "looting?"

http://www.snopes.com/katrina/photos/looters.asp

[Chemisse]

51. OMG, that's right! That was so illuminating.

[Enthusiast]

66. Lolly, I believe you have

put your finger on it.

The Reich Wing media was going full time to present a picture of dangerous 'blacks' terrorizing people and looting.

My relatives sent me e-mail illustrating (joking) about victims of the flood. Then when we had the recent Red River flood they sent me e-mail illustrating how much more resourceful white people were than the shiftless black people in NO after Katrina.

[Lucky Luciano]

101. Apologies, but your relatives are clearly morans...

It takes only a marginal IQ to understand the Red River flood was much easier to prepare for.

[Enthusiast]

106. But this is not apparent to Reich Wing types

They believe the propaganda e-mails without question. Of course you know and I know the floods were quite different but the ignorant believe as they are told.

[KittyWampus]

70. please, it's actually racist to assume that girl in the "found" photo is white. She looks

like an old high school friend of mine who was black.

[Lucky Luciano]

99. Disgusting

:puke:

[bertman]

46. My wife's family is from New Orleans. They are white folks who live in the surrounding areas.

When she went home to attend the funeral of an aunt who died in one of those nursing homes that was abandoned, she heard some awful stories about stuff like we're reading here. BUT the story she heard was that the first night or two after Katrina, there was no armed resistance to people coming out of the main city and into the surrounding communities. That resistance came when the displaced people from N.O. began breaking into the homes of people who had left when the hurricane warnings were given. Their story is that there was no organized delivery of food or water and no security so the refugees began taking stuff from people's homes and some homes got burned down. That's when the armed groups began to start shooting people to keep them from crossing over into their communities.

I did not hear any of this first hand, so I'm just telling you what she was told by people who were living there and going through this living hell.

[WriteDown]

52. People who are posting comments don't seem to know NO....

I spend about a quarter of the year there. It has always been a VERY dangerous place. A friend of mine once commented, in NYC they'll mug you, but in NO they'll mug you and stab you just for fun. Its an area where you really always have to be on edge.

[bertman]

76. Agree completely. Please see my post #65. nt

[Lucky Luciano]

103. In NYC, I am not sure if they will even mug you! It really is one of the

safest cities.

[NOLALady]

102. Interesting.

I had family members who left New Orleans before the storm hit. They lived in the only two story in the block. They watched the flood from California hoping and praying that their neighbors would break into their home for safety and food.

I have never believed the stories about people setting fires. Those desperate people were in survival mode. I cannot imagine anyone deciding that burning down a home might be a good idea when they had more pressing immediate concerns.

They were not refugees.

[Ex Lurker]

83. I understand, but the OP seemed to imply that

defending oneself is never justified, so I was trying to get a clarification.

[slampoet]

41. If everyone is like me there will always be some.

Why are you framing fictional situations? Do you just get off on the idea of legally shooting people?


Jesus is already ashamed of you.

[AlbertCat]

54. what if it's your water and food and they want to take it?

Do we know that's what was happening in these shootings? The people, as far as I can tell, are ALLEGED thieves. What evidence do we have that they were actually looting? It's OK to shoot people dead because you THINK they may take some of your stuff?

I suppose it's alright to go to war with countries you THINK may have WMD and be a threat too.

[Ex Lurker]

115. I posted upthread that I was asking a hypothetical question

and not talking about this incident per se. The OP I was responding to implied that force is never justified in preventing "looting," "finding," call it whatever you want. I was just trying to find out if they meant in EVERY instance, up to and including someone walking in your front door and walking out with everything you own. Some apparently think exactly that. I obviously disagree.

[Demit]

18. I think it's very relevant whether people ask you first or whether they just begin taking it,

don't you?

[fascisthunter]

40. not in situations like this one

[Ex Lurker]

100. so you're okay with someone walking in your front door and carrying your stuff away?

interesting.

[NOLALady]

111. Stuff can be replaced.

It's covered by insurance.

[Ex Lurker]

112. care to post your address?

There may be some stuff in your house I'd like to have.

[NOLALady]

113. You're welcome to it if you need it.

I could care less about stuff that might keep people alive during an emergency.

[Ex Lurker]

114. well, at least you're consistent in your beliefs. I give you credit for that n/t

[slampoet]

42. Do you think ANY of the food people were shot over didn't ROT INSIDE THE STORE ?

In fact it is probably still there uncleaned and molding over.


We all know that the owners weren't there to ask so stop framing false situations.

Anyone who would brag about shooting looters shot people because they WANTED TO SHOOT PEOPLE.

[WriteDown]

53. I saw a guy taking free weights out of a store after the storm....

Do they rot?

[AlbertCat]

57. Do they rot?

Are they worth killing someone over?

[WriteDown]

59. Depends if they are my free weights I suppose...

I guess the gyms would be closed though and you'd want to work on your lats. :eyes:

[slampoet]

84. Is that store still there? Would you feel better having shot him?

Have you considered that free weights are used to hold down tents for people to live in? Boat ballast? Burying the dead in the river so they don't infect the water supply?

What is it in you that thinks YOU can see in men's souls and tell?

[WriteDown]

86. Its like when I was robbed...

Those guys were probably there to get money for for their families. I mean why else would they take my 3K plasma TV, my 400$ air compressor, and the other things I've been collecting for a lifetime? :eyes:

[slampoet]

121. To sell for MONEY.

Wow, have you never heard of a fence?


BTW God Bless you if it took a lifetime to save 3000. Television must be soooo important to you That you predicted the plasma advancement decades early and spent it ALL on a boob tube.

[WriteDown]

122. Wow, you just don't know....

I've been broken into twice in the last 2 years. The first time they broke my elderly dogs leg at the knee. The police told me I was lucky because a lot of time they spray oven cleaner in the dogs eyes. So please, regale me with tales of these honorable rogues who steal because they have to feed their families. :eyes:

[slampoet]

124. How wonderful you love your TV and Dog more than your fellow humans' lives.

What a lucky man you are.

Thank you for confirming my experience of Dallas.

[WriteDown]

126. I can say with absolute certainty that both are worth more than...

than any scum who tries to rob my house. Next time, they are leaving feet first, As far as my dog is concerned, I'd gladly take any scum's life before I let someone harm him again. Of course that is what his new BIG sister is for. Say what you want about Dallas, but I grew up in NYC where someone broke into my grandparents home in Arverne and beat my grandmother to a bloody pulp (they then fled to Columbus). Of course this was another noble soul trying to feed his family :eyes:.

[slampoet]

127. People who want to murder will frame circumstances to make it happen.

and you seem to be doing it.

[WriteDown]

128. People who want to steal will frame circumstances to make it happen

and you seem to be doing it.

[superduperfarleft]

129. I rarely agree with the above poster, but....

if anyone were to threaten my dog for any reason (see, breaking my elderly dog's legs at the knee), I'd feel fully justified in shooting them. Your response was completely uncalled for.

inb4 BUT THER JUST ANIMALZZ!!!11 :eyes:

[slampoet]

130. Who is the animal now?

Are you going to kill the man who puts down your pet when it has rabies?

Are you going to kill the 15 year old kid who hit your dog while taking a driving test? What if he did it on purpose? Are you going to kill children then?

You're sitting within 15 feet of a dead animal product right now.


Grow up.

[superduperfarleft]

131. Apples and oranges.

Are you going to kill the man who puts down your pet when it has rabies? No, of course not.

Are you going to kill the 15 year old kid who hit your dog while taking a driving test? What if he did it on purpose? Are you going to kill children then? No, of course not.

You're sitting within 15 feet of a dead animal product right now. I'm vegan, but nice try. Wow, and they say vegans are sanctimonious and self-righteous.

But am I going to kill someone in self-defense who breaks into my house and injures my pets in an attempt to rob me? If I have the ability, absolutely.

Oh, and fortunately the decision to protect my family is not contingent upon the approval of some anonymous, sanctimonious bleeding-heart on the internet.

[slampoet]

132. Computers are made from animal products.

How do you think a capacitor or resistor or IC chip is made? Anything made of Steel or Iron uses an animal product in its manufacture. Gunpowder isn't vegan either.


And remember the above person is not just talking about defending a dog.

They are talking about shooting a human being over a 3000 television.



Well i can tell you that my local Salvation Army has at least Two Television sets that sold for 3k less than 10 years ago. And now NOBODY wants those TVs.

TV more important than people?

The rich want the little people to kill each other over magic windows that will break a year after the warranty is over.

Why not Target the person who made the people poor? Oh i know because that would actually require you to think and plan before you kill.

[superduperfarleft]

133. Sure thing, Che.

I was talking about defending my family, not my property.

LOL internet revolutionaries.

[MadMaddie]

82. They could have simply let the survivors pass through

that bridge I am betting was built with taxpayer dollars not just that towns dollars.

Just as the US is still prosecuting Klan killings from the 30s to present day, they should have a special investigation group going after these crimes.

[noiretextatique]

69. are saying all the black people in new orleans were looters?

those assholes shot people because they were black. they were not defending themselves...they were the aggressors.

[Lucky Luciano]

21. I think it is A-Ok to shoot to kill anyone looting from your house.

I do think that this Gleeson fellow in the OP most likely was shooting black people using the cover that they were looters because it would be hard to disprove. Lethal injection or life in a prison with a powerful black gang sounds like a good punishment if that was actually the case.

[tekisui]

29. Exactly. If they are dead, they are looters, right?

I have no problem with self defense. But, it will be nearly impossible to determine if his life or property were threatened. For all we know, the victims never approached the house. For a we know they were knocking on the door asking for help.

[slampoet]

43. These murderers were defending stores they didn't even own.

[Lucky Luciano]

98. I would defend my friend's and neighbor's house too....but...

somehow I still think these assholes were taking target practice because they would not be tried for it.

I agree with you basically - that although I was not there, they were very evil people trying to kill poor black people.

[Solly Mack]

19. K&R

[Tim01]

23. No sympathy for looters, none.

I saw some of the videos of people looting, and I heard some stories cops doing the looting. Not to mention the horror stories of the other things gangs of people did to each other.

I am not going to blame people for shooting looters.

[Tan Gent]

24. Taking bottled water or food from an empty store is one thing...carrying out TV sets

and boomboxes is a totally different story.

[Tim01]

26. I know a guy who was an insurance investigator post Katrina.

He saw police carrying electronic equipment from expensive houses that hadn't been damaged. He made sure to stay the hell away from them. He wanted to stay alive.

All through human history we see people are capable of unbelievably bad things if they are not contained by force.

[WriteDown]

55. If you've ever spent time in NO, you know that the one thing....

you don't do is get in the NOPD's way.

[KittyWampus]

71. fire fighters looted after 9/11

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. Is it? Suppose person A is hungry and thirsty. Person B has a big stash of

food and water, and is selling it to the highest bidder. Person A has nothing. So he breaks into an electronics store and lifts a TV, which Person B will accept as trade.

If you think about it, which is easier if you take your head out of your ass, there is NO difference. It boils down to desperate people doing what they would never normally do to ensure their own, and their family's, survival.

People who have not had a drop of water three days are NOT interested in flat screen TVs. Trust me on this.

[Tan Gent]

37. They were holding auctions?

I stand by my comment...anybody who loots nonessentials is scum.
But I know some people will continue to defend theft.

[Strong Atheist]

49. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[NOLALady]

110. Not auctions.

They were trading the nonessentials to the scum that charged them for water. Some traded to get rides to safety for their families.

[WriteDown]

56. Why an electronics store?

Why not your house RaleighNCDUer?

[Tim01]

62. Here is a video of post Katrina people struggling to stay alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RVHDlPqZWE

[Nay]

36. Agreed--taking water or food or Pampers from a destroyed grocery store

during a disaster is not, in my mind, "looting," although I'm sure it's not technically legal. Taking TVs would be, but we all know that the cops who actually looted electronics and Cadillacs (remember that?) never had pictures taken of them LOOTING.

[AlbertCat]

60. carrying out TV sets and boomboxes is a totally different story.

Yeah! They're worth killing someone over!

[Enthusiast]

67. And we all know who

it is steals them boom boxes and TV sets don't we Kemosabe? :banghead:

[Kutjara]

92. "Boomboxes"?

When were these guys looting? 1985?

[chasitynola]

95. Boomboxes...

yeah. And watermelons and chicken. Give me a break.

[tekisui]

30. Whether any individual was a looter is a case of "he said, he's dead".

There is little to no way to prove that he was being threatened.

[Tim01]

39. You're right. I spoke too fast.

In these bad situations people get kind of crazy. Life becomes very dangerous. People become very dangerous.

If a looter tries to get into a place where he has been told to leave, I have no sympathy for him. And I am firmly on the side of the person who shoots looters who won't go away.

A person who comes through the door with his hands up saying "please don't shoot me, I just want a bottle of that water there." is way different than 30 people trying to get into the front door for whatever unknown reason.

I'm glad I have never been in the situation where I had to shoot somebody while trying to figure out if they are lying bad guy or a total innocent.

From what I have heard about post Katrina, the bad guys were pretty easy to tell from the innocents. But I wasn't there.

[Paladin]

47. Your Additional Comments Do You Credit.... (n/t)

[liberalmike27]

45. This is sort of like

calling detainees, terrorists. We can't call them terrorists, as they've not been convicted of anything.

We can, neither, call people looters unless they are convicted of looting. But anyone with any sense, realizes that the stores were not opened, and a few people perhaps, needed some supplies, where there were none.

This post, demonstrates a certain lack of empathy in some, a total inability to put oneself into the situation of others, to imagine shit running out of your baby's diaper, with no supplies, no water running, it goes on....

I'm not sure how, but the media has nearly drummed any empthy out of anyone. I've always suspected, among other things, the constant crime shows, and stories about criminals, with no focus at all on how they became criminals. The nature of black and white make them easily distinguishable, and when people view things in these two basic colors, it makes it easy to moralize. In truth though, it is a technicolor world. A few folks stealing some basic needs to survive, is much, much different than folks stealing a Plasma television, or a man using torture in hopes of convincing those tortured to report false information about Saddam Hussein.

Empathy, in part, has to do with looking at the shades of gray, and understanding that not all things are black and white, in fact, most aren't. In fact, if I had to say one thing about the conservative mind that was wrong, it would be this authoritarian world view, that everything is all so clear. You can't blame some of them. When you've got that silver spoon in your mouth for all of your life, I suppose the reflection off of it, blinds you to the reality of what poverty, and desperation can drive real people to do.

[bertman]

65. maybe it has to do with lack of empathy or maybe it has to do with fear. If you were

familiar with N.O. before Katrina you know that the inner city itself, including areas around the French Quarter and the Riverwalk, were known as areas that were totally unsafe after dark due to the criminal element and the gangs. Whenever we visited, our inlaws warned us not to stray from the main areas of the Quarter or we risked being robbed or killed.

People were murdered in N.O. every day. Muggings, drug deals gone bad, gang turf wars, were commonplace. That's why so many people felt that N.O. was a terrible place.

Surrounding N.O. were scores of smaller communities of people who lived with this knowledge all of their lives. They read the papers and saw the results of N.O.'s deterioration every time they went into the inner city. They watched the news and saw the gang wars and the criminals raping and murdering people. For them this was not some news story that was happening a thousand miles away. It was in the neighborhoods next to theirs.

So, imagine if you have just been through a category three hurricane that has knocked out power, killed the flow of water, rendered gas pumps inoperable, leaving you and your family wondering how you're going to survive. Then, you see people you do not know coming into your neighborhood looking for food and water. Some of them are courteous and ask for help. Some of them are desperate and beg for help. Some of them are desperate and angry and hungry and belligerent. They break into your neighbor's house and start taking food. You ask them to leave because you're worried that they might take something else, or damage your friends' homes, or harm you and your family so they can get your food or take your car. They angrily respond that they don't have anywhere to go and they're hungry. Tempers escalate in the insufferable and unrelenting summer heat and humidity. Fear rises to a new level.

Then, one of your neighbors' house is burned down. It's one that had been broken into and was being used by some of the refugees from N.O. You and your remaining neighbors are now terrified of what might happen to you and your family and your home. Then, another house nearby burns down.

What would you do in this awful scenario? Would you be kind and generous and give these folks the last of your food and water that your family has, not knowing if you are going to get relief? Would you invite them to stay in your home with you and your children?

The lines of communication are gone. There are no phones, no street lights, no police department, no fire department to call. You and your neighbors have no idea when or IF there will be help arriving with food, water, security.




Some of the comments I have read in this thread show that many of us have no idea what it's like to be in a situation like

[AlbertCat]

75. Some of the comments I have read in this thread show that many of us have no idea what it's like to

Hmmmmm.... I wonder which came 1st, the "shoot the black people, ask questions later" or the gangs?

I worked on" Interview with the Vampire"...shot at night in the Quarter. No one in their right mind would wander off at night. It's surrounded by run down warehouses and out and out slums.

But ALL cities have these kind of places. And the city of Charlotte in my own state of NC was the murder capital of the US for a while. So, though NOLA is a unique city with a rich and different culture, as just a city, it is no different. A history of racism and Jim Crow mentality does not make it OK to shoot people and then not care if you killed them or not because you thought they might be looting.

Your post is just excuses.

[bertman]

78. Excuses? Sadly not. Racism certainly played a part in what happened in N.O., but

there were other factors involved that made this a horrific situation for everyone. Something you fail to acknowledge, and thus, trivialize in your response.

[WriteDown]

79. That is the NO I know and love...

Some of the best food in the world, but may in fact be the most dangerous city I've ever spent time in.

[NOLALady]

108. Most of the smaller communities surrounding New Orleans

are inhabited by the white flight folk. The guys and gals who left the city because they feared school integration. They were not afraid of crime, drugs, gangs etc. when they took off. They were afraid of the scary black little girls and boys. That was the mentality of "The Parish" then. I doubt it has changed much now.

[noiretextatique]

72. the people these assholes shot were not looters

their crime walking while black. there is no excuse for such blatant racism. not even racist fantasies excuse this.

[Hugabear]

93. So you're defending MURDER

Because that's what it is, when you get right down to it - MURDER. The death penalty is bad enough as it is, but to take someone's life without even allowing them due process? Who makes YOU the judge, jury, and executioner? Oh that's right, the GUN in your hands, I suppose whoever has the biggest GUN gets to decide who lives and who dies.

So fucking what if they were taking non-essential items. Is that worth KILLING over? You're not advocating using deadly force for self defense, you're talking about MURDERING people for simple THEFT.

[Lorien]

138. So you believe these bigots? I live in the South, and I know of some

hardcore white repugs males down here who DREAM of being able to go on a killing spree and take out all the "worthless monkeys". I swear, these evil fucks have a hard on for killing non whites-especially black men. They're looking for any excuse they can find to do it, too.The assholes in the OP sound exactly like them with their hateful, cavalier attitude.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Louisiana enchants as much as it horrifies.

There are so many stories that this State has to tell. Makes my State look like Shangri la or... it's foreshadow for what will happen to any of us if a similar circumstance errupts?

[Odin2005]

58. When the MSM only showed images of black looters I knew they were throwing raw meat the the racists

:puke:

[noiretextatique]

73. the reporting was shamefully racist

white people "found" but black people "looted" :puke:

[chasitynola]

68. Makes me CRY

it brings back such powerful memories. That was my neighborhood. I moved at the end of July 2005. I know and love MANY people in the area and in New Orleans. People will NEVER know how it felt to be there, to run away, to watch on TV praying you don't see dead friends, looking on CNN on rooftops to try and ID your friends, coming back as soon as they let you to smell the smell, see the destruction and try to piece your life back together.

Our government let us ALL down. All of us. Black, white, Hispanic, Asian and all shades inbetween. There was a lot of help from person to person, but the feeling of panic as night descends is unforgettable. Absolutely unforgettable.

Hate and panic do not mix well. At all. That man Gleeson looked and sounded absolutely evil. Makes us all look like barbarians. The man that was shot...how can you even stand to look at that? I lived on the ferry line...it is located in the Point and you HAVE to go through the neighborhood to get to it. There would be no other way.

I am rambling now...but it is all so fresh and painful. Pray that it never happens in your town, to your friends and family. Horrific.

[Catherine Vincent]

80. ...

:hug:

[Quantess]

85. Thank you for posting, and remining us that this was a human tragedy, first and foremost.

I would say Welcome to DU but you aren't new. :hi:
Many people on this thread seem caught up in whether the looters were justified or not. But they are not seeing the tragedy, and the irony. Why did they have to be looting grocery stores at all when meanwhile the charitable people who tried to deliver food and water were being turned away?

Complaining about looters seems petty when viewed against the backdrop of utter misery and death.

[chasitynola]

87. Thanks for the welcome...

no one has ever welcomed me to the sight.

I just had to write out what I felt after watching that news post. So much injustice, it's hard to fathom. When you have no car, no money, no means of leaving and you live paycheck to paycheck...most times a bit behind that next paycheck, how do you leave?? You don't. I employed MANY people in and around the French Quarter at the time of Katrina. I managed clubs on Bourbon Street. Yes, there is crime. Yes, there are not always good people around, but just because someone 'looks' like a 'thug' does NOT make them one.

People did what they had to do to survive. People also looted for no reason. People selflessly helped their neighbors and fellow man. Neighbors worked together to police their owns streets and try to protect evacuees homes from the looting.

The post earlier that stated 'you don't get in NOPD's way', they are correct. It was not only people from the projects looting. It was the police. In a lot of cases, the people from the projects ARE the police. It is all very mixed up and confusing. And you will never know what you would do unless you are put in the situation.

I know many people that looted stores. For diapers, formula, water, bread, medicine, basics of survival that most people take for granted because they have the money to have extra on hand. Many people DO NOT have that luxury. And a lot of people I know went back after things normalized a bit to try and make right by what they took.

You will never know how these people felt. It is a desperate situation and after days and days of waiting for help, help that you feel MUST be coming ANY SECOND, and never does, you do what you have to do. Wouldn't any parent? Any child of an elderly and sick person?

Would you???

[DemReadingDU]

109. You do what you have to do

And as our country devolves more deeply into depression, and more and more people become jobless, homeless, pennyless, hungry, and angry, expect to see more of this, in every city and town.

:(


Edit: That's why it will become so important for family, friends, neighbors to look after one another, helping each other, bartering, in order to survive.

[NOLALady]

107. A cousin and her family were trapped in a hotel in the East.

She told me how her elderly grandmother was picked up along with very young children. No one came back for the rest of them. Eventually her sons and other young men began to leave every day in confiscated boats to find/loot food, water and necessary supplies. The people in that hotel depended on the "looters" for survival.

It's still fresh and raw to me also. I thank the heavens that I didn't lose any family but most are still scattered. Family, friends have been uprooted and they are gone forever.

[redqueen]

74. God... that last line.

Glad this hasn't fallen down the memory hole.

[chasitynola]

89. More in depth video...

reasons people HAD to go through Algiers Point to get to the ferry...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K3veQLmhAE

[chasitynola]

91. Part II of the Democracy Now report...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsJFcLJ-Niw

Poignant words...

Don't tell me what you heard, don't tell me what other people SAID, tell me what you SAW...what you experienced.

[chasitynola]

94. This is the last one I can post...

if I look at anymore today, I will never stop crying.

These people who shot these defenseless men were not EVEN FROM ALGIERS. How dare they have the nerve to say what can or can not happen in a neighborhood that isn't even theirs.

Cooking out at a restaurant I used to frequent on a weekly basis. Drinking and bragging about shooting niggers. Yes, I typed that word. Shock in into your system.

Just because you are black and you wear a white tee does not make you less of a human.

I have to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dWza8-BFIs

[Number23]

125. Thank you so much for your posts in this thread.

Some here will not ever get what you are saying. But some of us will.

The lack of humanity our country displayed towards American citizens during Katrina will be a blight on this country for (hopefully) many, MANY years to come.

Kicked and Rec'd this OP.

[BrklynLiberal]

117. Cruelty to animals is a precursor to cruelty to people.......

http://www.pasadosafehaven.org/KATRINA/DOGSHOOTING/HISTORY.htm

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/5644/LA/US/


Inhuman savages partake in both.

[philly_bob]

118. Any update on the reports that gangs were shooting at rescue helicopters?

Rush Limbaugh and right-wingers were playing that story for all it was worth. I heard folks on the street talking about it.

Did it ever really happen?

[chasitynola]

119. I will ask first responder friends

here in New Orleans...I have firefighter friends that were here for the duration and I have often wondered about that story.

One friend was on body recovery for 5 months post-Katrina and he tells me he is lucky not to be in the loony bin by now.

People saw things here that no one should have to see. And people wonder why folks around here eat Xanax like tic tacs...

I was fortunate enough to be in lower Manhattan for 9/11 and then be here in NOLA for Katrina. Loony bin...here I come!

[slampoet]

123. I was on the scanner channels during the entire event and never stopped recording.

I have found a lot of things on the tapes i made but NOTHING to indicate helicopters were ever shot at.

[Richard Steele]

120. K&R

[AnnieBW]

135. What surprises me is that WTAE is reporting this story

They're the ABC affiliate in Pgh, and owned by Sinclair Media. They're flaming wingers, and broadcast the anti-Kerry thing from the Swiftboaters in 2004. I'm surprised that they're not sweeping this further under the rug. Hey, what's a few more dead "n-words" to these people?

[defendandprotect]

136. kick ...too late to recommend

[defendandprotect]

137. Well, Katrina looked like a "hate" crime to me . . .!!!

I'm not current with how survivors are doing lately in NO -- I know many have returned --

but still seems that many, many were scattered.