Swim club offers olive branch after racism allegations(invites kids back)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CNN

A suburban Philadelphia swim club has invited children from a largely minority day-care center to come back after a June reversal that fueled allegations of racism against the club, a spokeswoman said Sunday.

The development came during a hastily called Sunday afternoon meeting of the Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania. Club members voted overwhelmingly to try to work things out with the day-care center, which accused some swim club members of making racist comments to black and Hispanic children contracted to use the pool, said Bernice Duesler, the club director's wife.

Duesler said the club canceled its contract with the Creative Steps day-care because of safety, crowding and noise concerns, not racism.

"As long as we can work out safety issues, we'd like to have them back," she told CNN.

She said the club has been subpoenaed by the state Human Rights Commission, which has begun a fact-finding investigation, "and the legal advice was to try to get together with these camps, " Duesler added.


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/12/pennsylvania.pool.problems/index.html

[babylonsister]

1. How "nice" of them. I heard a class-action suit was filed. Maybe that

inspired their generosity.

[izquierdista]

5. I hope they don't get Judge Smales

He might throw out the case.

"Hey, did you hear the one about the colored boy...."

[wisteria]

12. Self delete. n/t

[wundermaus]

2. Nope, too late!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AepyGm9Me6w">Book 'em Danno!

[wisteria]

16. To late for what? n/t

[ejbr]

52. I need to play that clip every morning!

That put a skip in my step!

[goclark]

80. LOL ~

[rurallib]

3. I wouldn't be in any hurry to accept the invitation.

It was made pretty clear they weren't wanted by the members. Some members may take it upon themselves to make the kids feel unwanted.

[drm604]

4. They just reported on this on the local Philly news.

They interviewed a father who said that he would not be sending his child back.

[zonkers]

6. I think it would be a positive thing to leave it up to the kids. Maybe something even

more positive can come from all this.

[bertman]

7. Agreed, zonkers.

[No Elephants]

45. Disagree. Kids are trusting and racists did not shed their racism in a week.

[zonkers]

100. Some members were outraged. I am not saying "halt the discrimination probe.

But perhaps some kids from the club can play with the inner city kids and they can move forward which I think is what things should be about. on edit.... It's summer. Fuck racism's ugly head! We're kids Let's have some fun!

[zalinda]

11. In one of the articles

at the bottom of the piece which probably few read, it stated that some of the parents were upset because they were not told that the camp was coming on that day. They were angry not because of the race of the children, but because of the amount of children.

Now, if I had a child that had problems with crowds (no matter what color) and I took that child to the pool during a time I thought that there would be few children in the pool, I would be upset too when a crowd of 65 children came into the pool. I, too, would have pulled my child out of the pool. Some children cannot take noise, or excitement, or a change in their routine no matter what "hurt" feelings it may cause.

There were many little details about that day that ended up at the bottom of the articles, but no one really bothers to read an entire article, when you can just read the first few paragraphs and get angry at "racism". BTW, in another article, again at the bottom was the little fact that two other groups had been asked not to come back, and they both were white or mostly white groups.

zalinda

[wisteria]

19. Thank you for being brave enough to comment on this article when it isn't the

popular thing to do. There were many facts left out or ignored because when they were factored in, it would not have been the story as it was purposely reported.

[Devil_Fish]

22. if 65 kids showed up at a pool I was swimming in I would get out and demand my money back.

remember that simpsons episode where all the kids jump in the pool and it instantly turns yellow?

I don't care what color their skin is, I care what color the watter is.

[wisteria]

30. You have a point, people join these small pool clubs to avoid the crowding of the public pools.

I know when my children were small,I use to avoid taking them to the public pool because of the chance of infections and because they always complained about being splashed or not having room to really swim. I would be angry if I had had the money to join a swim club and then found out that it was over crowded.

[rocktivity]

35. They had to know how many kids were coming

if only because they had to predetermine any insurance issues.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[Ian David]

No shit.

Q1: How many kids?
Q2: How many chaperons?
Q3: When are you coming?
Q4: How long are you staying?

[goclark]

88. Right ~ they knew and for safety reasons

you always take a head count.

Have you ever taken a group of children on a field trip?

You count them and worry every 20 seconds.

I taught Elementary School and before they leave the classroom and when they get off the bus you MUST... Count Them!

Before they get in the pool, you Count Them Again!

And certainly the owners of the pool would Count the children to see if they were in any way exceeding the limits for the safety requirements..... before they set foot in the water.

[No Elephants]

49. People did not make color based remarks to the water. They did make racial remarks to the kids.

[msanthrope]

25. I have a child who has problems with crowds.

And the fact is that both the child and I have come to terms with the fact that there is no guarantee that even the best-laid plans to avoid crowds will do so. And it's not up to everyone else in the crowd to accommodate my child's problems.

As a responsible parent, I wouldn't be upset. I would remain calm, as that is the best way to ensure that my child could adjust.

I call BS on these parents who just didn't like the 'crowd.' What did they think? That their $400 membership entitled them to exclusivity?

[Wizard777]

59. Does that family have 13 kids? Do the math.

The day care paid 1,900.00 for 65 Kids. That about 29.24 per child. At 400.00. That family would have to have 13 Kids to be paying the same per child cost. I don't think the black kids have a case. But the white kids being overcharged for their membership might. Oh that's right. It's impossible to discriminate against white people. Just ask Judge Sotomayor. :eyes: Oh look an open can and worms everywhere.

[JTFrog]

66. They didn't pay 1,900 for a yearly membership. They paid for a few summer sessions. I wouldn't

go suggesting folks lawyer up on your advice just yet.

:eyes:

[Wizard777]

85. Ooooookay, Have you ever been to a Christmas Swim in Pa?

:scared: :rofl:

[No Elephants]

90. No, but I've enjoyed many balmy days in Spring and Fall. And the club might offer year round event

We don't know about that, one way or the other. We know only what Creative Steps paid for Summer pool privileges.

BTW, I did enjoy a day in December in Massachusetts that was over 80 degrees. It happens everywhere. Nothing in this story turns on that, though. There is absolutely no evidence of reverse racial discrimination. There is not even evidence that all the kids at Creative Steps were either African American or Hispanic. Nor is there any evidence that none of the club members were Hispanic or African American.

[No Elephants]

87. Bulk sales often get a discount from the price charged individuals. Besides, this

club claims to have offered its pool to other organizations whose budget cuts forced them to close their own pools. So, he difference in price may also have something to do with economic need. Not one thing indicates that the price was based on race.

[msanthrope]

111. No, You do the math. The daycare kids were there for

an hour and a half a week, with no individual membership, at a price negotiated by the swim club.

The other members had open access.

And what is wrong with an organization getting a group rate? What's wrong with the swim club offering one? Have you NEVER used a group rate? Never had a kid go on a field trip that used a group rate? Never went to a sports game with a work or social group?

Are you REALLY suggesting that because these children paid a group rate, they have less rights?

[Wizard777]

122. Have you seen the contract? You are saying they didn't have a membership.

But both the day care and club are using the word "membership" in reference to the agreement. Just because the day care was restricting their use of the pool to an hour or so doesn't mean the club is.

[msanthrope]

125. You are deliberately misquoting me because you are losing the

argument.

I wrote that the kids had no "individual membership." Which is true. They have a right to use through the membership of the daycamp.

Which still doesn't negate the fact that you 1) are wrong, and 2) have failed to address my questions about use of group rates.

Which does not surprise me.

[No Elephants]

48. If true, that would have been a reason to storm the office of club's management, not

a reason to make racial remarks to the children.

[ejbr]

57. Two of the reasons that people did not "bother reading"

is because racist comments were overheard and the manager claimed the presence of the children

"In that statement to NBC10, he had said, "There is a lot of concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion ... the atmosphere of the club."

However, I take him at his word when he goes on to state:

"This is a terrible misinterpretation of what I stand for. This is just wrong," Duesler said while standing with his wife Bernice at the pool's gate. "That was a terrible choice of words, I admit."

He said that what he meant to convey was the number of campers in the pool compared to the number of available lifeguards had created an unsafe environment.

"It was just too many kids on top of each other," Duesler said. "Many of them couldn't swim."

Unfortunately for him, he chose those words combined with the misfortune of whatever "racist" comments were heard by the kids.

Full article here

[No Elephants]

107. He threw the kids out and returned the check Creative Steps had given him and

the club did not come up with a single reason other than "complexion" until after a discrimination complaint had been filed.

[ejbr]

109. Which, albeit inadvertantly, reinforced the belief that racism played a part n/t

[No Elephants]

110. And you are so dead certain of inadvertency how, exactly? If a newspaper reporter were

asking me why I threw African Americans out of my club and returned their check, rather than have them return, I would have made danged sure I gave my race neutral reasons right then, if I actually had any. And, if his issues were really only noice (um, what did he expect from 65 kids in a pool) and safety, how come those reasons did not occur to him the day before the kids showed up? How come they occurred to him only the very day they showed up, after his members allegedly made racist remarks? And why not discuss noise and safety with Creative Steps, rather than returned the check immediately?

[ejbr]

113. I meant to put inadvertantly in quotes as

one has to take his word for it. However, would one consciously give racist reasons to reporters for denying entry in this day in age unless you were looking for trouble? Webster does provide 4 definitions for complexion, these last two appear to be the ones in question:

3: the hue or appearance of the skin and especially of the face <a dark complexion>
4: overall aspect or character <by changing the complexion of the legislative branch — Trevor Armbrister

I am just saying that I don't know this man from "Adam" and want to believe that he made a poor choice in words while not appropriately addressing any racist attitudes of members whom he could probably never identify for expulsion if he wanted to.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am African American. As you most certainly know, this does not mean I speak for all African Americans nor that I am even looking at this thing correctly. (Seeing that little boy cry on TV was devastating.) However, I am hoping that there is a distinction between racist members and racist policies at this club. The former being irrelevant, the latter being unacceptable.

[Karenina]

115. But it was SUCH a CLASSIC Freudian slip!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[TheMadMonk]

119. Even if not specifically racial. Your interpretation still boils down to...

...not wanting "their sort" about the place.

The only appropriate response this man could have made when the first complaint was aired, either to him, or to the atmosphere with the intent to be overheard, would have been to tell the parents who made them to GTFO and return with a receipt if they wished to be refunded the unused portion of their membership.

[Blasphemer]

36. At the very least, I think I would wait for the results of the investigation

The overcrowding explanation doesn't quite wash:

" Wright has rejected the camp's contention that the swim club's pool was overcrowded. The club had accepted a 10-to-1 ratio of children to adults and was considering adding up to three lifeguards, according to e-mails obtained by CNN.

But John Duesler said last week that the Valley Club also canceled contracts with two other day-care centers because of safety and overcrowding issues."

One of the other groups whose contract was canceled had 25 children according to articles where one of the women who had a contract canceled spoke out in defense of the club. If they realized that 25 was too much for them to handle and they could not make provisions, why wouldn't they have immediately contacted this group and explained the situation to them? Sounds more like they decided they would honor the contract but make changes to address the safety concerns (i.e. adding lifeguards). Then, the kids showed up, racist members made slurs against them and complained and the club THEN responded by canceling the contract. If I go to an establishment and am asked to leave after having racist slurs directed at me by other patrons, then yes, I'm going to assume racism is at play. I also don't believe the "complexion" comments were just a poor choice of words. I don't care how diverse the club may or may not be or who members or staff may or may not have voted for. It simply doesn't matter where racism is concerned. Hopefully, the investigation is well conducted and all the evidence (including the e-mails made reference to) is thoroughly examined. How interesting that the olive branch was extended after they were legally advised to do so.

[Wizard777]

68. Blatantly racist comments are only a poor choice of words when they come from JUDGE Sotomayor.

But I understand it's far more important to keep possible racist and sexist out of a swimming pool than the jurist pool we call the Supreme Court. Apparently we've been taking prioritization lessons from the Republicans. :wow:

[JTFrog]

78. You keep using this thread to bash Sotomayor. Why don't you just start a thread on it? n/t

[Wizard777]

81. I did. But I continue to find who we will and will not give a free pass on racism to be interesting

and troubling.

[BumRushDaShow]

84. Wow. What does the SCOTUS issue

have to do with this case?

And regarding the RW talking points that you are suddenly using, you apparently never understood the context nor ever will. In fact, all of your posts actually prove her point.

[Wizard777]

91. Apparently some people like to use racism in their contemplations of racism.

Sotomayor is case in point. What you are not realizing about her statement is that it entails the reason why she is able to make the better decision on discrimination is because of her experience as a victim of racism. Because white men can't be victims of racism they cannot have the equivalent of her experience. That personal belief shines through in her Ricci decision. She found it to be acceptable to deny Ricci equal protection of law to advance a minority cause. That is Judicial Political Activism. I'm seeing parallels in the arguments presented about the pool. The accused is white. What more proof do you need they are racist? That's just as racist as saying, the accused is black what more proof do you need of their guilt? Racism is countered by establishing equality. Not the uses of reverse discrimination. So yes it's relevant in an analogous kind of way.

[Blasphemer]

102. I'm not going to address the Sotomayor issue here but as far as the arguments for racism here...

I don't see that the allegations in this case are stemming solely from the fact that the accused is white. As someone who has had racist things said to me by other minorities and who is from a cultural background where divisions amongst two minority groups has been a key feature of their socio-political framework, the race of the accused is immaterial to me. I think that I am capable of looking at an individual case and discerning the likelihood that racism is involved without using "reverse racism". I've even had cause to accuse my own family of racism because of things that have been said about and stereotyping of other races. I don't just look for racism willy nilly. I've seen it from all sides of the fountain.

[brooklynite]

8. Embarassment is a wonderful incentive for civic responsibility

[No Elephants]

51. Legal action is an even stronger incentive.

[Brother Buzz]

9. Ding-dongs, you can't unring the bell ....

Nevertheless, I really hope some of those people become enlightened to some degree, but I won't be holding my breath.

[wisteria]

18. I fail to see how accusing a swim club of racism when none might have existed will enlighten anyone.

To me, it creates further devision. I know I would be highly offended if someone called me a racist, just because I expressed an opinion different than theirs. Their accusations wouldn't enlighten me at all, but they would very possibly make me resentful.

[Brother Buzz]

26. I did not use the word 'racism'

I am suggesting the handling of the incident last week was totally unprofessional and no excuse of safety and noise issues is going to unring the bell, the damage was done.

I trust the the Pennsylvania Human Rights Commission will deal with the accusations in a proper fashion and the truth will be revealed. In the meantime, the kids will enjoy the other pool that was offered to them while the olive branch withers in the sun.

[wisteria]

31. What was the damaged if it was not the suggestion of racism?

I won't argue with you about the unprofessional nature of the entire dealings. The amount of children should have been discussed up front so that both sides were on the same page.

And, what if anything good comes of this if one side accuses the other of racism fairly or unfairly and then when the accused want to make amends for the way things were handled the accusers wouldn't
accept the olive branch?
Is this how it will be played out forever regarding racism? Is this really helping to resolve this issue and make more people sensitive to racism?

[JTFrog]

42. Yes. Investigate. Prosecute and penalize. That's exactly how it should be played out forever.

I'm sorry we can't just take your word for it that there are no racists where you're from.

THEY WERE LEGALLY ADVISED TO OFFER THAT OLIVE BRANCH. They didn't do it out of the kindness of their hearts no matter how much you wish you could latch onto this new bone.

[No Elephants]

53. Did you read the article? Extending the olive branch was what lawyers advised

after a complaint was initiated.

[Iggo]

10. I hoped they'd reconsider because of a backlash from the members.

Not because their lawyers said to make nice.

[MellowDem]

14. The members voted overwhelmingly

to invite the kids back according to the article. My guess, the members weren't told the kids were coming, so when they showed up it was a surprise. The members complained, the kids were sent away, and the club president made a very unfortunate choice of words with "complexion", unless he is an Obama supporter who wants to show his racist creds to a reporter, which I highly doubt. Some of the members made racist comments that the kids overheard and the reason for their expulsion was quickly surmised to be racism, especially when linked to the "complexion" comment.

Either way, the racist comments that some of the kids reported from the parents should be the big story and a big wake up call for the club to maybe weed out certain members.

[wisteria]

15. If in fact some members made racist comments, my guess is they will cancel their own memberships.

The club can not be responsible for the personal opinions of some of its members.

[No Elephants]

67. No, but club is responsible for kicking the kids out after racist remarks by some members.

Opinions are very different from racist slurs and kicking people out. Nice try with that wording, though. Well, actually, slanting is not nice at all. Fortunately, your attempts are quite transparent.

[Iggo]

20. Good. That's what I wanted to hear.

[RamboLiberal]

29. My bet is most of the member didn't know about the incident

Until the shit hit the fan. I'm betting there were a few there that day who had loud voices and complained to the president & maybe some board members. Those few caused the stupid reaction of the club officials who acted without really thinking this through.

[No Elephants]

55. The article also talks about legal advice to try to get the two groups together. Besides,

no one said a majority of the members were racist. The club rented out the pool. The kids showed up. Racial remarks were made. The kids were asked to leave and the rental check was returned, citing only the complexion of the place.

A complaint of discrimination was filed. Lawyers advised that the two groups try to get together. Then, for the first time, we heard about noise (what do you expect from 65 kids in a pool), overcrowding (though the number of kids must have been known) and safety.

Not surprised that the members voted "overwhelmingly" to invite them back after legal action was commenced and lawyers advised the club. Not surprised that someone who shows up faithfully at DU to post on the positive points of the Confederacy sees nothing wrong here but an unfortunate choice of word.

The real unfortunate choide of words here were the racial slurs to the children. Very unfortunate indeed.

[Ian David]

60. Drudge says the owner is an Obama supporter.

This is probably the last time I'll be citing Drudge for a long while, so don't get used to it.

[No Elephants]

64. Drudge is not known for reliability. However, there are many reasons why a business person supports

a particular politician. In fact, sometimes people contribute to both sides of a primary and both sides of an election. Supporting Obama does not make a person non-racist, or even a Democrat.

But what is Drudge's point here? That the club owner cannot possibly actually be a racist? False. Or is it that Obama is responsible for the conduct of all his supporters? Also false.

[Ian David]

71. We've all heard stories of people saying, "I'm voting for the n*gger!"

Yes, racist people will still support Obama.

They're just racists who put their own self-interest ahead of their bigotries once in a while.

[No Elephants]

75. Voting is a different issue from "supporting." We don't really know how anyone votes.

The current Governor of Pennsylvania is a dyed in the wool Democrat. I would not be surprised if that had something to do with the club owner's support, assuming Drudge is correct to begin with--and that is a mega assumption.

[JTFrog]

44. The director said she couldn't see taking them back there. They've been scarred.

I hope they move on to a better place and those kids never have to deal with idiots like that again.

[wisteria]

13. It is good to see they are reviewing their policies regarding safety concerns.

I still maintain the club did nothing wrong and was only concerned about laws and the safety.of the children. But, with all the hatred and accusations being hurled at them, I can see they are trying to make amends.
To bad though, that itsn't really what the people who ranted and raved want. They don't want to accept any good will- they want to make a point at the expense of the swim club.

[TheMadMonk]

28. 65 kids WOULD NOT overcrowd the kind of facility a club such as that...

...would have. That the club invited them back with apparently no specific restrictions, puts the lie to that particular claim.

When you book a venue, whether it be for 1 or for 10,000, one of the very first questions the venue operator will ask is "How Many?", because they, not the booking party, are responsible under fire and a whole host of other health and safety regluations for ensuring that the capacity of their facilities is not exceeded and the safety of their patrons is not compromised.

If there had been an actual issue of overcrowding they would not have opened the doors, and not just have been within their rights, but legally obligated to keep those doors/gates closed until the issue had been resolved. They didn't. Their safety concerns were bullshit.

This is NOT good will on the part of the club. It's damage control and the more embarassment they suffer the better.

This was almost certainly a racist matter from the beginning, or at the very least a disgusting display of class based elitism.

[wisteria]

33. They invited them back,but need to discuss the safety matters.

READ!

[TheMadMonk]

38. They invited them back when public embarrassment forced them to back down.

I don't believe the "safety matters" are anything but a smoke screen, not when they restated and revised their reasons, before arriving at this one.

[No Elephants]

72. Not only public embarrassment. Legal advice.

[humanahumana]

17. i would be afraid of what they would do to my child after that experience

thanks, but NO thanks... is what i'd tell'm and forbid my kid from ever going there again.

at least they revealed themselves right off the bat :puke:

[wisteria]

21. OH, please. What harm? It seems to me you have some issues yourself.

Those children were harmed when it was suggested that there was racism involved from the very beginning and people did not want them there because of that reason, when in fact it may well have been nothing more than safety concerns regarding the welfare of these children. Please read the entire story and consider taking a breather before just accusing people of things they may not be guilty of.

[humanahumana]

23. sure, i have plenty of issues with racism... especially when directed at my young children

and i certainly have issues with people i don't even know telling me what is harmful or not for my own children.

if you think folks condemning that behavior by the pool leaders and guests did more harm than the actual outrageous behavior then i would keep my kids away from you as well.

cya

[wisteria]

27. Were you there?Are you so certain that what transpired was racism?

How do you know? If I was 100% certain this incident was racism, I would be as outraged as some others are. But, I think it was otherwise and some people do not want to admit that every incident isn't always racism. It exists, but it isn't under every rock that is turned over.

As for you suggesting that perhaps I am a racist you are incorrect and I resent you even implying such a thing when you don't even know me or better yet understand me. But, you prove a point-some people jump to all kinds of conclusions simply to justify their own opinions.
CYA

[humanahumana]

32. where you? i am usually at work during those hours but if my kid told me about the remarks reported

and that the were then evicted en-mass from the pool without doing ANYTHING wrong, what more do i need to hear?

i am not suggesting you are racist, just someone of poor judgement, and therefore I would not be comfortable with you having any influence on my kids.

look, you are entitled to your OPINION, just like i am, so let's just leave it at that.

[wisteria]

34. Did you ever consider this just might have been a safety issue?

And, no I was not at the pool at that time. I have family that lives in the area and one member was there on the day this happened. Now, before you jump to conclusions and accuse a member of my family of racism, I want you to know that my niece and nephew were not removed from the pool and stayed in to play with the newcomers.

[JTFrog]

50. So you do have a dog in this fight. That explains it. n/t

[Karenina]

39. So the harm, according to you, was caused by the suggestion of racism

on the part of some members after the children were accosted and abused. Calling those members racists is a MUCH BIGGER DEAL than a child reduced to tears by some adult spewing hatred at him. Yeah, THAT'S the ticket!

[No Elephants]

58. I did read the entire story. The kids showed up at the pool. Racial remarks were made.

The kids were asked to leave. The rental check was refunded.

Then the story hit the fan. Management made a remark about changing the "complexion" of the place. Not a word about safety, noise, or overcrowding. NONE. Besides, club management had to have known how many kids were coming and that 65 kids in a pool don't whisper.

A discrimination complaint was filed. Legal advice was to get the two groups together. The club invited the kids back, citing safety, noise and overcrowding.

The notion that "racism was suggested," as you keep putting it, and that is what harmed the children, rather than the racist "welcome" they got when they showed up, is absurd.

[Wizard777]

73. Are you sure? Because one of the kids said racial remarks were made.

Did any adults here them? We all know kids never lie. They never misunderstand. They never have perceptual problems. That's why the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and tooth fairy bits only fool adults. :eyes: Uh huh.

[No Elephants]

83. More than only one kid cited racial remarks.

[Wizard777]

97. I've only read that one Kid told a teacher that. But it does bolster credibility if it was more.

But it's going to be very inetresting to read the depositions should legal action result. That much is for sure.

[No Elephants]

108. Did you read the story linked in the OP? It says "some" kids reported racial comments.

[Wizard777]

69. Exactly! Reverse discrimination is still discrimination.

It's ugly regardless of the direction it's traveling in. What you're failing to understand is the people here don't care about the safety issues. They just want to make sure those poor black kids are given an equal opportunity to drown. :wow:

:sarcasm:

[JTFrog]

76. Yes that's it! Those kids are racists!

When all other excuses fail... blame the victim.

[Wizard777]

82. First we must be absolutely sure that the victim is in deed a victim.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wizard777]

93. That's right we're not supposed to reply to these.

[No Elephants]

92. Yet, you're posting about reverse discrimination with no evidence whatever, not even an allegation.

Guess you get to post that way, but people holding a view different from yours are held to a standard of absolute certainty.

[Wizard777]

95. No I'm merely presenting a counter argument or alternative view.

[ShamelessHussy]

120. That appears to be contrary to the known facts of this case

[Wizard777]

121. There are facts and there are facts.

There are varying burdens on what people call "fact." I'm looking at this in two ways. What is generally accepted as fact. But ultimately I'm looking at what's going to be allowed to be presented as fact in court. A lot of what is being accepted as fact here is hearsay. The teacher can say they made racist remarks to the media. But she can't say that in court. She did not directly hear them. One of the kids told her racist remarks were made. Also people are reading things into statements that may not have been intended.

[ShamelessHussy]

124. Yeah, well the court of public opinion has heard enough

I would never let my children go to that club and imo only a fool or one of similar beliefs would.

I take it you've never directly experienced racism or are working for the club.

FYI: The teacher may not be able to say it but the kids certainly would be able to testify to such.

[No Elephants]

89. If only there were evidence anywhere in this story of reverse discrimination, you might have a point

[Wizard777]

96. The reverse discrimination would be in assuming that since there is an allegation of racism -

against whites. It must be true and they must be guilty. At least that's "racism" when you do it to black people.

[No Elephants]

104. The allegation by the kids is not the only fact we know, though. Besides, you claimed reverse

racial discrimination about the price Creative Steps was charged; and you had no basis for that either.

[kwassa]

116. There were multiple allegations

or maybe you missed that part of the story. Multiple allegations need to be taken seriously, very seriously. You are erroneously convinced that a single student complained.

The idea that the pool management didn't understand how crowded their pool would be is completely implausible. What kind of managers would they be if they didn't understand the capacity of their own pool?

there is also an eyewitness account from a pool member that said the kids were very well-behaved!

[Wizard777]

123. Have you ever had a job? Who says all managers are competent?

One of my God children worked for a Mc Donald's. His manager made a brilliant money saving business decision. The manager checked the computer and the labor hours were running high. So she sent all the highest paid employees home. That also happened to be the entire grill team. As my God son says, Have you ever been in a restaurant full of hungry people with no one to cook them food? :wow: :scared: It's pretty scary.

[Subdivisions]

24. Mmmmm-hmmmm....

[tomm2thumbs]

37. can we guess how many of the 'regulars' will not show that day? the real story is

more about the attitudes of folks who attend the pool, not those who run it. The folks that attend have the power to fix this with their actions and those that did not agree with the pool's conduct should volunteer to meet with those that were summarily kicked out and make amends. Then, they should have a giant welcoming party to invite them in and make sure it is not just business as usual but apologies all around and a sign of retribution for a terrible, thoughtless mistake of judgment.

So much harm was done it is going to take a lot of effort to make sure it does not become a slow burning fuse on both side's moral souls.

[No Elephants]

70. Huh? Those who run the club evicted the kids and returned the check after the kids were victims of

racial slurs. And, after the story hit the fan, the owner said that the kids were evicted because they changed the "complexion" of the place. They've been invited back based on legal advice.

Welcome party, nuttin'. I would not send my kid back.

[dipsydoodle]

40. Whatever the reason

they are now at least doing the right thing to atone.

[No Elephants]

77. Huh? Doing the right things to atone? They haven't done anything at all.

From the article linked in the OP:

"Bernice Duesler said she wasn't yet sure how the club will "reach out" to Creative Steps and the other two camps."

And that's after Duesler got legal advice to get together with Creative Steps.

The headline of the OP is misleading. (Gee, whoever thought CNN would do that?)

[JTFrog]

41. They were given LEGAL ADVICE to do so.

But I see the apologists are still fucking running rampant around here with another new bone to gnaw on.

Nobody got hurt in this incident!?!?!?! Yea, fuck those little kids and their self-esteem and dignity. They should just go to the back of the bus with their non-swimming, unsupervised, overcrowding, complexion changing selves. :sarcasm:

Fucking idiots.

:mad:

[BumRushDaShow]

43. Bingo

Black children are not "people", so they have "no feelings". :sarcasm:

[mbperrin]

63. In the original thread on this, I urged swift and comprehensive legal

action on behalf of the kids, because in no way did a simple refund restore them to their original status.

I thought that a fraud charge should be filed on the criminal side, and I still do.

I thought that counseling should be provided to each child at the swim club's expense, and I still do.

I thought that the club should have to build the kids an equivalent facility to ensure no contact with the perpetrators of the original fraudulent hurtful incident, and I still do.

My real thought was that before all was said and done is that the swim club would owe somewhere in the neighborhood of $18-22 million dollars in damages and legal fees, in addition to any criminal penalties for various forms of RICO activity, fraud, conspiracy to defraud.

Apparently their lawyer thinks they have a problem, too.

They do, and I hope the swim club conspirators suffer. No pain, no gain.

[Wizard777]

74. Well that sure does beat the hell out of playing Mega Millions.

Your odds of winning the Mega Millions is a couple million to one. Your odds of winning the litigation lottery is 50/50.

[No Elephants]

94. Not really. The fact that there are two side {at least} to a lawsuit does not mean

you have a fifty fifty chance of "winning." To calculate the odds of a win by Creative Steps, we'd need to know the outcomes of a huge number of similar cases, as well as the record of Creative Steps' lawyer.

And the fact that a defendant may walk out of court without having to pay the plaintiff rarely means that the defendant "won," in any practical sense. The time and money fighting a lawsuit requires are considerable, as is the anxiety about losing. And the desire to protect both criminal and civil defendants, the plaintiff has the burden of making out a case and it also has the burden of proof.

Further, there are monetary penalties for bringing frivolous suits and making frivolous claims that can nbe imposed on the lawyer, as well as on the client. And a case like this would be a continent fee case, so the lawyer would have to be fairly certain of having a good case. Otherwise, the lawyer could put in two or three years on the case--and thousands in out of pocket expenses--and end up with zero. So, the barriers and disincentives for bringing a frivolous case are considerable.


But, that is our legal system and has always been. And for centuries before it was ours, it was England's. It's not perfect, but I'm not sure there is a better one.

[Wizard777]

98. The Judge or Jury will either decide for or against and that's 50/50.

[No Elephants]

103. It's not the same as tossing a coin. The result is not random. One team or another wins

a football game, but the odds as to the winner of every football game are not 50 50.

[nc4bo]

46. Fuck them

There is no way in hell that I would want my kids to go where they were not wanted especially after overhearing the racist statements of some of the members.

The kids have a place to swim now, they are happy, leave it at that. Save the rest of the life lesson for grown folks.

Let the kiddies enjoy what's left of this summer without psycho-bullshit baggage.

[JTFrog]

47. "These children are scarred. How can I take those children back there?" she said.

Fortunately it seems the director of the day care agrees with you.

So do I.

:thumbsup:

[Ian David]

62. I would take the kids and go back.

And then I'd have them line-up on the side of the pool, drop their shorts, and pee into the pool.

And then we'd get in the bus and go home.

[Ian David]

54. It's not so much that I'm surprised this sort of thing still goes on.

What surprises me most is that nobody seems to have noticed it at this club until now.

How long as this club been offering "open memberships" for outsiders to use their pool?

And why is it that nobody else has ever called them on this?

This can't be the first time African-Americans have shown-up at their pool.

I'm not saying the club is innocent. The fact that all the white children somehow knew to all get out of the pool at once as soon as the darker kids got there makes it sound like this has happened before.

I'm wondering how long they've been doing this, and how they've gotten away with it.

[BumRushDaShow]

65. Communities around the country

like this are SEGREGATED. The minute one attempts to "cross the line" where they "don't belong", the hackles go up, so they don't try it. It boggles the mind how many have a scotoma to really what segeration (in housing and thus schools, churches, graveyards, public facilities, etc.) means and does.

This day camp had previously used a nearby city Y for some of their swimming sessions. http://www.philly.com/community/pa/philadelphia/netimes/In_Frankford_its_the_ex-Y.html?viewAll=y">But that facility had closed in June, so they had to scramble around to find another place and preferably one close by - which would be this place.

But little did they and the children know that the ugly legacy of segregation, in a supposed "post-racial world", would slap them right in the face.

[goclark]

117. yep nt

[nvme]

56. i WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT TOO

IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR THOSE PESKY KIDS!

[Ian David]

61. And that stupid, stoner dog! n/t

[No Elephants]

79. Selected quotes from the article linked in the OP.

Swimming privileges for about 65 children from Creative Steps were revoked after their first visit June 29. Some children said white members of the club made racist comments to the children, asking why "black children were there" and raising concerns that "they might steal from us." Days later, the day-care center's $1,950 check was returned, Wright said.



Wright has rejected the camp's contention that the swim club's pool was overcrowded. The club had accepted a 10-to-1 ratio of children to adults and was considering adding up to three lifeguards, according to e-mails obtained by CNN.



She said the club has been subpoenaed by the state Human Rights Commission, which has begun a fact-finding investigation, "and the legal advice was to try to get together with these camps," Duesler added.

Alethea Wright, Creative Steps' director, said, "They should have done that before."



Interesting to see that some read only to pick out things they can use to try to defend, or even, praise the club, ignoring everyhing else, including human nature.

[goclark]

99. Thanks for helping me out with that part

I am African American.

For 36 years I was a teacher/ Administrator.

Based on what I know now,I would have a hard time taking the kids back as well.

However, as an educator ~ I see this case as a " Teachable Moment for America in 2009."

I would not have a hard time having members of the club volunteer to do something to "make a positive difference" for the Day Care Center -- not give them money but spending quality time getting to know them as individuals, getting to know their community.

I would not have a hard time letting small groups of parents from both sides get to really know other ~ have a small group session led perhaps with a Professor and a team from a major University in the area. And, as a result of their exchange, come up with a PLAN to teach America how to resolve Racial Differences.

I know that ALL the Club Members would not make a slip up like that but these are so called "rich in $$'s"/educated people that need to set an example for America.

As part of the "Agreement" there needs to be a "Teachable Moment Component" for America from the Country Club located in "The City of Brotherly Love."

They have the ability to be recognized for the good that they do and not just throw some money at the situation or "invite them back" to avoid a law suit.

They may just find out that "their complexion" comes in lovely hues and that beauty is deeper than any mirror reflects.

The members and the Day Care Parents need to reach inside their souls and show the world how it feels to "get along" on this planet.
They need to learn to lead by example for the sake of their children and their children's children.

Of course,this would need a lot of planning and all the legal issues would need to be carefully addressed.

But, without that component ~ the lesson for America will be ~

" Those Black People are always complaining about something and getting those Civil Rights Lawyers to punish us for something stupid.... I hate those *******!"

Sad but true.

PS/ In my plan, I have a dream that one day next summer, the parents and the children will be invited to " Sit Down Together" at the Club for a Picnic and perhaps a Swim together.
I have a Dream Today.

[No Elephants]

106. You're welcome. Also, bear in mind that the headline of the story is misleading. The kids have not

been invited back yet.

[goclark]

114. I understand but I don't think they should go back

Until there is an indepth " Teachable Moment" Plan with the parents and the Club Community.

[rocktivity]

101. If Strom Thurmond had been elected president

we wouldn't be having these kinds of problems.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[No Elephants]

105. Newt, is that you?

[rocktivity]

112. Trent Lott, actually

:rofl:
rocktivity

[goclark]

118. Or John Mc Cain maybe ~

and don't forget how well Sarah Palin would have handled this one.

She would be taking her kids to swim in the pool with the Club Members.

[Vidar]

126. Obviously not ideal, but a half way decent solution.