Demjanjuk faces 27,900 accessory to murder counts

[Lone_Star_Dem]

Source: Associated Press

MUNICH – Retired auto worker John Demjanjuk was formally charged Monday with 27,900 counts of acting as an accessory to murder — one for every person who died at Sobibor during the time he is accused of serving as a guard at the Nazi death camp.

The charges by prosecutors a Munich state court are one of the final steps before an expected autumn trial for the 89-year-old, who has been fighting a variety of Nazi-era charges since 1977.

Demjanjuk and his family have argued that he is in poor health. Photos taken in April showed him wincing in pain as immigration agents removed him from his home in Seven Hills, Ohio, where he had been living since 1993.

German doctors cleared the way for formal charges this month when they declared that Demjanjuk (dem-YAHN'-yuk) was fit to stand trial so long as court hearings do not exceed two 90-minute sessions per day.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090713/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_demjanjuk;_ylt=AtMCcOV3VK932avNmPcd_Mys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJtM2pmM2JvBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNzEzL2V1X2dlcm1hbnlfZGVtamFuanVrBGNwb3MDMwRwb3MDMTIEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDZGVtamFuanVrZmFj

[zonkers]

1. Interesting, he was hauled off to Israel, tried and convicted for being "Ivan" the terrible, the

gas chamber maintenance man, only it was overturned. Now they are going at him from a diffrent direction. Here is an article about the witness they have......


http://www.cleveland.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/new_witness_in_demjanjuk_case.html

[winyanstaz]

2. So the law will act against this sick old man.

for war crimes committed during the last world war, but todays war crime criminals are living the good life at taxpayer's expense. My..how nice.

[laylah]

3. Better late than never, yes?

Or was the genocide of many Jews, Gypsies, etc okay with you to the point no one should be held accountable after a period of time? Just asking :shrug: God/dess willing and the "crick" don't rise, the bastards in our OWN government will be held accountable for their atrocities. I couldn't care less if they are 50 or 110...it is called JUSTICE!

[Iowa]

5. Being "sick" and "old" doesn't shield one from prosecution for crimes against humanity...

It's best if such criminals are dealt with promptly, but late justice is better than no justice. I hope to live to see the day when Bush administration officials are prosecuted for torture - they were a stain on civilization. I also hope to see Obama administration officials prosecuted for providing cover and support for torturers. Party affiliation should not stand in the way of punishing those who either commit crimes against humanity, or shield those who commit crimes against humanity.

[winyanstaz]

8. I have to agree with that.

[ConcernedCanuk]

4. Bush Family got him beat 100 times over . .

.
.
.

Yet the BushGang remains free

So far . . .

[Vidar]

6. Glad to hear it. When do we hang Cheney and company?

[3waygeek]

7. Screw hanging -- I'd prefer a firing squad...

especially for Cheney. I'm sure he'd appreciate that more than hanging or lethal injection.

[CrawlingChaos]

9. Ridiculous charade

This was a very young man at the time, a POW himself, caught up in world events beyond his control. His job was the care and feeding of guard dogs. There is no credible evidence he ever directly harmed anyone.

Would you support similar persecution for the truck mechanics at Gitmo?

Anything to direct attention away from Israel's own atrocities against innocent victims.

[boppers]

12. Comparing death camps and GITMO?

That's kind of shocking.

Comparing Israel's atrocities with Germany's?

Also shocking.

I suggest you do some reading before making such blatantly odious statements.

6-17 MILLION people were slaughtered.

Oh, and I suppose you know nothing about how trucks were used as carbon monoxide gas chambers.

GITMO "truck mechanics", indeed.

Read some history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[CrawlingChaos]

19. Oh for crying out loud

Are you not aware of what went on at Gitmo, and Bagram, and God knows how many other American-made hellholes? Innocent people were swept off the street and tortured, sometimes to death, in order to extract false confessions. Children were raped in front of their parents to extract confessions. Is that not horrific enough for you?

The point is that the men and women in our military don't get to decide whether or not they approve of what's going on, and neither did Mr. Demjanjuk all those many years ago.

And yes I DO compare Israel's atrocities to Germany's. Genocide is genocide, and the similarities between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto are unmistakable and heartbreaking. Do you require that the body count reaches six million before I'm allowed to raise an objection?

And I'll tell you what's really "odious" - knowing that my tax dollars pay for this horror, against my will. So why don't YOU go do some reading, hmm? Maybe something other than pre-digested MSM propaganda, might I suggest.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. You really do need to learn history.

There is no genocide happening at the hands of the Israelis, only the perpetually ignorant, hate-filled, intellectually deprived, and/or propagandists say things like that. As for similarities between the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza, right there, you exposed your ignorance. I suggest a through reading of the history and reality of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Gaza Strip.

I suggest you stay way from the conspiracy sites for historical education.

[CrawlingChaos]

34. then I guess Jimmy Carter needs to learn history...

...and stay away from the "conspiracy sites" too.

And dropping white phosphorus on children only seems like a bad thing when you're "intellectually deprived", is that right?

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Just you.

The intellectually deprived are those that spew propaganda knowning that it is propaganda, kinda like you.

[saigon68]

35. Obviously never heard of Mordechaj Anielewicz

Comparing Warsaw and any present day place is nothing more than a red herring

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Anielevich.html


http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=ivKVLcMVIsG&b=476153

[CrawlingChaos]

40. He'd be called a terrorist if he were Palestinian

That's what we call someone trying to defend themselves and their loved ones (except in instances where their struggle can help further the goals of empire, in which case we'll call them something cool like 'freedom fighters').

What further atrocity does Israel need to visit upon the imprisoned population of Gaza before you supporters will accept the comparison?

[boppers]

24. Horrific has scales.

You don't have to wait until a body count hits six million, heck, you shouldn't wait until 6.

Comparing them as equals is where the thinking goes wrong.

[WriteDown]

39. Seems like Black September in Jordan would be more...

similar to genocide than anything the Israelis have ever done.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. The Israeli Supreme Court freed Demjanjuk

Arguing that there was reasonable doubt about his being the so-called Ivan the Terrible. He had previously been sentenced to death in Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. True. But those aren't the current charges. So, do you have a point?

Or was this just a random factoid?

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Actually, Mr. Hostile

I was responding to the previous poster who blamed everything on Israel. The fact that an Israeli court freed Mr. Demjanjuk would seem to gravitate against that theory, no? If you weren't such a knee-jerk fuckwad, you'd see that I was on your side in this. That said, these are the same charges he faced in Israel, with the catch being that double jeopardy doesn't apply across jurisdictions, and that the German law has as much a claim to prosecute as would the Israeli. The importance of the new evidence is that it supposedly overcomes Demjanjuk's claim that his is a case of mistaken identity.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Wow. You have issues, don't you?

I wasn't at all hostile. I asked why you posted what you posted, yet you resort to name-calling and claim to be on my side? Aren't I the lucky one?! :eyes:

"That said, these are the same charges he faced in Israel."

No. They are not.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Your suggestion, clear as can be

was that I was somehow defending Demjanjuk. Don't pretend otherwise, as you'll only be embarrassing yourself. You jumped on me, despite the fact that I was defending the Israeli state against rather outrageous charges made by the previous poster. because you just assume that people are going to be defending a suspected war criminal? And I'm the one with issues?

Don't play innocent. And yes, when you suggest, as you did, that I am defending scum like Demjanjuk, I will call you a knee-jerk fuckwad, because that's what you are.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Oh, so now you know me, better than me?

One poster has already made that mistake, and clearly, I made one about him/her.

I never suggested, implied, or made direct statement to your supporting Demjanjuk. So, clearly, you can see you are being paranoid. So, yes, you do have issues. I asked why, you could have easily made your point, but you chose the low-road, so I just traveled it with you.

Therefore, let me be very clear, you are a paranoid dipshit who has poor reading comprehension skills.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. Whatever

Your snide stupidities are painfully transparent.

So let me be clear: Fuck you.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. And your raging ignorance and paranoia are woefully apparent.

So, do seek medical help and some education, maybe a 5th-10th grade education will help.

[chatnoir]

10. Didn't Germany pass a law a few years ago

setting a statue of limitations on the prosecution of German war criminals?

So the main architects of the Holocaust, the ones who were primarily responsible for these deaths, cannot be prosecuted...

But individuals from other countries, in this case a Soviet POW, can. :wtf:

[TheLastMohican]

36. Yep, this hypocrisy strikes me too

The Germans are trying an old man, who became a POB at the hands of Germans with their "untermenshen" politics and sub-human slavs and jews policy.

Doesn't anybody find it odd since so many german nazis actually escaped any kind of war prosecution and the Israelis had to fish them out one by one all over the world?

[reorg]

41. on the contrary, the statute of limitations for murder and genocide was abolished

in Germany in 1979.

I am not aware of any changes since then.

What law are you referring to?

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Always interesting to watch people make excuses for "people" like this.

[boppers]

13. Always interesting to see scare quotes around a word like "people".

There are some really interesting essays and works on the topic, about how de-humanizing, and separating, differentiating, divorcing, avoiding the basic humanity of human atrocities is mentally used to avoid confronting the ugliness of being part of our species.

Such separation makes a break between "us" and "them", and enables future atrocities, by implicitly arguing that when people of one group do it, it's not as bad as when "people" (implying a lack of humanity) of another group do it.

In short:
"When they came for the Palestinians, I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Palestinian".

NEVER AGAIN.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. People was scare quoted to make a point, which is obviously lost on you.

Given your other post, I would have thought you intelligent enough to get it.

Is this I/P all of the sudden or do dead Jews just evoke a Palestinian response from you?

[boppers]

15. The point is one I've read too many debates on, perhaps.

Dead people evoke a response from me.

Especially when other people are the killers.

Justifying the killing, or dehumanizing the killing, or minimizing the loss of the killing, is where it gets tricky.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. And that deals with the topic or my statement how?

The "people" to which I referred were war criminals and people responsible for genocide. The reason for the "" was to 'backlash' those who defend/excuse people like that because they killed Jews, you know, "those people." Get it now?

So, are you one of those that makes anything about Jews, especially dead ones, also about Israel?

[boppers]

17. I knew I should have linked to the essays.

"Jews"
"Palestinians"
"Intelligentsia"
"Oligarchs"
"Democrats"
"People"

It's all the same.

I get that there is a long history of denying humanity, based on creed, color, religion, nationality, politics, etc. I'm not attacking you personally for using it as a rhetorical device, I'm trying to use a message board to inspire people to reflect on when they deny any and all people the right of being considered.... people.

As far as dead Jews being about Israel, that's silly, and either you know nothing about me (likely), or have dealt with an annoying group of anti-semites who use any mention of Jews as an attack on a controversial set of ME issues (also likely), and might assume I'm in that group.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. then link the essays.

I'd like to see them.

"As far as dead Jews being about Israel, that's silly, and either you know nothing about me (likely), or have dealt with an annoying group of anti-semites who use any mention of Jews as an attack on a controversial set of ME issues (also likely), and might assume I'm in that group."

Given that I said nothing about Palestinians or Israelis in my response, yet you did, are you really surprised I concluded "dead Jews = Israel" to you? If it is not, then that is a wonderful thing, because it is something I see here quite often.

[boppers]

26. 337 links...in one google search.

http://www.google.com/search?q="denying+humanity"+germans

Some links are outright racist, others are not, I hope. I just skimmed them, didn't see the book I was looking for (which is kinda geeky, it goes into punctuation as a political tool).

As far as conflating Jews and Israel, that's gotten a bit old for me. Doing so is a shallow understanding of the diaspora, search for a homeland, and question of nationality for those who settle there (along with many other issues). The whole discussion is (and has been) worthy of millions of pages of text.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. You are looking for a book?

What is the premise, besides punctuation? Do you remember any part of the title? I don't read long random google searches because they tend to be fruitless, in cases such as this, specifics are much more important.

"As far as conflating Jews and Israel, that's gotten a bit old for me."

Glad to hear it! Seriously. Hopefully, others will follow suit, and not just those who hate Jews.

[boppers]

30. The premise was about use of devices to make an argument in debates.

I can't recall the author or title right now, just the message.

The general message could be satirized thusly:
'If "Indians" stopped claiming "their land", Americans can make it better!'

I'm going to have to rip apart the basement book-store, or hope others come to my rescue.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Sounds interesting.

I will see if I can find something along those lines. I have a few friends who are big into rhetoric; they may know. If I find some things, I will let you know.

[boppers]

32. That would be greatly appreciated.

Mental note: buying and reading 3 books a week is 156 books a year.

I should slow down, or start a catalog system.